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antichrist
30-03-2005, 09:57 AM
You be the jury.

A mate of mine who claims to be in the know reakons you would not take gunga to Indo in a fit, as so abundant and cheap over there??

I know as a fact that in Asia other people's goods are unknowingly loaded onto someone's ticket without them knowing.

She is a pretty white "Christian" in a Asian Muslim country antagonistic to OZ -- her head is on the block John the Baptist style.

The poll will be open for 60 days as Indo decision could take that long.
Multiple voting allowed.

What would Paul Dozer(?) do in this situation??

That Ron Bakir helping Shapelle is a Leb, aren't Lebs nice people!
___________________________________________

Opton 7 should be:
Will she be executed?
____________________________________________
Mods, you are welcome to correct option 7, thanks.
(still learning how to most effectively use poll options as there are limitations)
RWIPI 6

ElevatorEscapee
01-04-2005, 10:49 PM
I dare say that the World Record holder, Mr Doszer would find a way to leave his accommodation without paying (at least without paying for the meals :P ).

JJJ listeners will not be surprised at the introduction of the "surprise witness", as the apparently prevalent scam of interstate drug smuggling by airport baggage handlers had been well and truly exposed.

Apparently miscreants employed in the baggage handling industry will choose unusual looking baggage (such as a boogie board bag) to stash their illicit substances, so that the nefarious, nasty baggage handler at the other end is easily able to identify it.

One hears stories by travellers all the time about their luggage being misdirected... one can but wonder whether at least some of these people have been unwitting drug smugglers. :hmm:

JGB
01-04-2005, 10:57 PM
You can forget about sending the Commando's in. You think the boys down at the company can be bothered getting involved in this?

antichrist
03-04-2005, 10:09 AM
You can forget about sending the Commando's in. You think the boys down at the company can be bothered getting involved in this?

Haven't the Yanks done it against the Chinese and Arabs?

JGB
03-04-2005, 10:35 AM
Haven't the Yanks done it against the Chinese and Arabs?

Its a normal task of the SF anywhere in the world, but its not justified here.
That would just destroy our relations with Indonesia, and after the Sea King helicopter crash this morning, which claimed nine lives in the region, we cant afford it. Hostage resuce is about as dangerous as missions come. Just look at all the botched jobs of Delta Force in the States.

antichrist
03-04-2005, 12:08 PM
Listen, good white Aussie blood is on the line here. And she is a good looker as well. If a few of those boys in our Delta Force had their way they would be in like Flynn in more ways then one.

JGB
03-04-2005, 12:20 PM
Listen, good white Aussie blood is on the line here. And she is a good looker as well. If a few of those boys in our Delta Force had their way they would be in like Flynn in more ways then one.

We dont have a Delta Force... thank God!

Rincewind
03-04-2005, 12:30 PM
We dont have a Delta Force... thank God!

:)

Although we do have the SAS the scenario of the Aussies sending in the military to bust out a civilian accused of drug trafficking in the country of (arguably) our second most import military ally is ludicrous. Then again, Miss Vanuatu was never known for having a particular strong grip on reality. ;)

(PS Playing in the background: Anarchy in the UK).

antichrist
03-04-2005, 12:36 PM
:)

Although we do have the SAS the scenario of the Aussies sending in the military to bust out a civilian accused of drug trafficking in the country of (arguably) our second most import military ally is ludicrous. Then again, Miss Vanuatu was never known for having a particular strong grip on reality. ;)

(PS Playing in the background: Anarchy in the UK).

What is this most second most important ally rubbish. We should have taken them on over West New Guinea when I was a little boy, they would have behaved themselves over East Timor and other colonies they have established. The Balinese don't want the Javanese(?) there, and many other Minority areas also don't want the transmigration that has taken place.

Rincewind
03-04-2005, 12:59 PM
What is this most second most important ally rubbish.

I said "arguably" but I notice you don't provide any counter argument. Indonesia has a huge military force and Australia's geographically closest neighbour. Only the US alliance could be more important.


We should have taken them on over West New Guinea when I was a little boy, they would have behaved themselves over East Timor and other colonies they have established. The Balinese don't want the Javanese(?) there, and many other Minority areas also don't want the transmigration that has taken place.

Indonesian does have sovereignty issues. However, so does just about every country (to verying degrees) when you look at it closely.

This is, of course, all besides the point, which is standard troll behaviour.

JGB
03-04-2005, 01:03 PM
Indonesia has a huge military force and Australia's geographically closest neighbour. Only the US alliance could be more important.
.
A 'huge' incapable military.

antichrist
03-04-2005, 03:37 PM
I said "arguably" but I notice you don't provide any counter argument. Indonesia has a huge military force and Australia's geographically closest neighbour. Only the US alliance could be more important.

A/C
Forty years ago they had nothing, probably old WW11 stuff. To hold West New Guinea against them would not have taken much of an effort. We and and our so called allies US built up their military forces. Now it is too late. We should have only given them aid on conidtion that they pull out of WNG.


RW
Indonesian does have sovereignty issues. However, so does just about every country (to verying degrees) when you look at it closely.

This is, of course, all besides the point, which is standard troll behaviour.

A/C
You go and have a look in their museum in Djakarta, the fuzzy wuzzies to our north look nothing like the Indos. An enormous difference ethnically and culturally. Other countries sovereigntry issues usually involved people who are much closer in ethnicity and culture.

We have let the Indos systemically wipe out the primitive people to our north. We should hang our head shame for this. If we can go to the WW! and WW11 on the other side of the earth well surely we can go just across the strait.

The USA has corrupted our foreign affairs.

antichrist
15-04-2005, 06:30 PM
We may have to ask for a steward's report as Ron Baskir reakons they are seeking bribes to let her off the noose -- just to sabotage my poll and my vote.

Talking about asking for the sympathy vote with all this feint fainting!

arosar
15-04-2005, 06:32 PM
Yes, of course it was an act. Do you ever wonder how she manages to put on some mascara? I mean, hellooo.....she's supposed to be like a prisoner!

AR

antichrist
15-04-2005, 06:34 PM
But AR did you see one of my earlier posts of 10 mins ago cant hang around long as paying heaps also comma button won't work but just discovers it works in raised position

Years ago I worked in a drugs hotspot and I lived in a drugs hotspot that is 24 hours a day and I completely turned against them. Wished they were all put on a deserted island.

ElevatorEscapee
15-04-2005, 07:13 PM
But who would handle their baggage on the trip there?

*If I saw a camel handling my baggage, it would be a trip to remember... I won't touch the stuff with a barge pole! I've no idea what's in it!

antichrist
29-04-2005, 08:36 AM
Shapelle appealing to the judge's god, gaud almighty

the judge said elsewhere that he had already made up his mind 75% so I don't think her plea will do her much good. Poor so and so whether innocent or guilty

ElevatorEscapee
29-04-2005, 09:39 PM
Little Johnnie knows this as well... ever wonder why the "Bali Nine" were offered to the Indonesian authorities? Odds are they that they are the "pay off" to get her off... it would be an "unpopular" result (according to the polls) for LJ if Chapelle were imprisoned for life whilst being so "obviously" innocent.

LJ places much more importance on public opinion polls than any previous leader... the big worry is that after June 30, the Liberals will have ironclad control of both the Senate and the House of Reps, so they can and will create any crazy laws they want. Goodbye to lots of taken for granted freedoms!

(and goodbye to "Ironclad" guarantees about public health)

antichrist
29-04-2005, 10:04 PM
Well at this stage I am getting out my old protest banners for Joh's funeral on Tuesday, do you think I should keep them out for when the Libs have total control?

I remember Howard from the beginning 25 years ago and always thought he was squirmy - unAustralian - though he plays on "Australia".

Spiny Norman
29-04-2005, 11:21 PM
... ever wonder why the "Bali Nine" were offered to the Indonesian authorities?

When faced with a choice between "conspiracy" and "stuff-up" .... pick the stuff-up option every time.

Test will be whether Corby does indeed get released .... or not ....

antichrist
29-04-2005, 11:46 PM
She is a waste in prison aye? Aren't I terrible.

firegoat7
30-04-2005, 01:44 PM
A/C
You go and have a look in their museum in Djakarta, the fuzzy wuzzies to our north look nothing like the Indos. An enormous difference ethnically and culturally. Other countries sovereigntry issues usually involved people who are much closer in ethnicity and culture.


AC I don't know where you are heading with this but the term 'fuzzy wuzzies' is simply racist and why is sovereignty an issue in regards to ethnicity, culture and sameness?



We have let the Indos systemically wipe out the primitive people to our north. We should hang our head shame for this. If we can go to the WW! and WW11 on the other side of the earth well surely we can go just across the strait.

Actually, AC if you were to do any serious reading on the subject you would understand that Colonial boundaries drawn up by the Dutch, German and British governments began the destruction of the island chains geopolitically north of Australia.

Furthermore, Australian colonial occupation in Papua New Guinea 1906-1975 is littered with a history of cultural and social destruction that includes apartheid, slavery, economic dependency, Religion and education.
The track record after independence is not much better with Australian commercial interests contributing to Ok Tedi and Bouganville conflicts.

Moreover, to suggest that these people were 'primitive' denies known historical evidence that their societies were/are complicated, legal,humane and economocially productive and more importantly, shows how you judge an 'other' who you are probably not in the least bit connected with.

Before you suggest that "the Indos' are wiping out these people ask yourself, what people? Who exactly are you talking about? and how are you going to 'Save them'. I think you will find that people are not nearly as powerless as you think and that really the problem is one of who's doing the talking and who's got the power.

Cheers Fg7

firegoat7
30-04-2005, 01:52 PM
AC,

Just to show you that I am a sensitive soul, I though I would reproduce the lyrics of a recent song by the Apes of Kaos.

Unfortunately I cannot repeat all the lyrics here.
But here is the chorus.

(Chorus)
Schappelle Corby
Death not detention,
the reasons are to many,
to many to mention,


The rest of the lyrics are at UCJ under the music thread, Apes of Kaos.

Cheers Fg7

Spiny Norman
30-04-2005, 01:58 PM
... the term 'fuzzy wuzzies' is simply racist ...

Yep, in a sense it is ... but its also bound up with the "fuzzy wuzzy angels" who saved so many Australian lives in WW2 ... so its not always meant with purely negative intent. But I'm also reminded of Cpl Jones from Dad's Army:

"They don't like a bit of cold steel up 'em!"

Lucena
30-04-2005, 02:23 PM
Well at this stage I am getting out my old protest banners for Joh's funeral on Tuesday, do you think I should keep them out for when the Libs have total control?

I remember Howard from the beginning 25 years ago and always thought he was squirmy - unAustralian - though he plays on "Australia".

Are you a union man AC?

Lucena
30-04-2005, 02:26 PM
We may have to ask for a steward's report as Ron Baskir reakons they are seeking bribes to let her off the noose -- just to sabotage my poll and my vote.

Talking about asking for the sympathy vote with all this feint fainting!

I think that should read "feigned" if you want to accuse her of deception.

firegoat7
30-04-2005, 02:27 PM
Yep, in a sense it is ... but its also bound up with the "fuzzy wuzzy angels" who saved so many Australian lives in WW2 ...



Except Frosty,
AC's construction seeks to speak for a whole group of people not just the 'good guys' and it should be noted that it is in the Australian WW2- Anzac day myth invention, propaganda machine device, political double talk to speak of native people in such terms.

Even when something good occurs 'like the saving of soldiers lives' we denounce 'them' in the negative as 'fuzzy wuzzies'.

How would you feel if somebody said there goes the 'pink headed baldies', not to good me thinks.

Lastly, It is of course a complete political myth that the indigenous people of the area were all pro-Australian. There were different interests, some of the native people actually fought for the Japanese.

And lets not forget the bigger issues. PNG was not a sovereign nation from 1939-45. Despite never even making weaponry of the scale seen in WW2, nor having a defense force, it was still utilised as the staging of a battleground to protect European and Australian interests.

A bloody battleground that killed thousands of lives, a significant proportion being native, who did not particpate in any referendum on whether they would like to participate in WW2.

The simple facts are this, PNG was a geopolitical pawn. It was sacrificed for Australia. How does this equate the peoples best interests, if those people wanted nothing to do with it?

Cheers Fg7

eclectic
30-04-2005, 02:50 PM
when you think of it, firegoat, the word "native" smacks of racism while its alternative "indigenous" smacks of political correctness

eclectic

Rincewind
30-04-2005, 03:11 PM
A bloody battleground that killed thousands of lives, a significant proportion being native, who did not particpate in any referendum on whether they would like to participate in WW2.

This is BS. NG didn't need a referendum to participate in WWII. Japan invaded NG as a part of its aggressive, expansionist policy and would have done so with or without Australia's involvement. Don;t forget that Japan's record as a benevolent occupier at the time was not good.

Yes the Australians preferred to fight in NG rather than Australia but your argument seems to be we should have let the Japanese take NG as that would have saved the lives of more New Guineans, but that would have been a major tactical mistake which could have prolonged the Pacific conflict by years, leading to the death of many more people of all races.

What happened after 1945 you might have some issue with in terms of lack of regard for traditional owners in the region.

firegoat7
30-04-2005, 03:12 PM
when you think of it, firegoat, the word "native" smacks of racism while its alternative "indigenous" smacks of political correctness

eclectic

Yeah its difficult eclectic, I am in partial agreement with you. "Native" does presuppose natural over cultural, so its not the best term. I wouldn't necessarily call it racist, it depends on the context and who is using it.

Indigenous is also an interesting term. I think this term is misunderstood, I believe it does not necessarily mean anything more then a localised cultural way of life, that is in some way traditional.

As such I would have no problem in classifying a number of WASPs as being 'indigenous' , to Australia. If such a statement makes any sense. I don't think classifying people by racial sterotypes serves any use for the wording of 'indigenous'. Nor do I believe many statements about political correctness, since the term 'politically correct' is highly contestable.

Cheers Fg7

Spiny Norman
30-04-2005, 03:21 PM
The simple facts are this, PNG was a geopolitical pawn. It was sacrificed for Australia. How does this equate the peoples best interests, if those people wanted nothing to do with it?

fg7, I've snipped your post down to the above, for brevity. Those sentences above are a load of claptrap. RW is 100% right .... and you're putting breathtaking spin on the scenario. Japan invaded PNG. Australia (and others) defended PNG, at substantial cost of Australian lives lost. If you think the Japanese would have treated the people of New Guinea well and we should've sat here on our arses and waiting for them to sail into Sydney harbour, then you're being just plain silly and deliberately provocative. Get back in yer box!

antichrist
30-04-2005, 03:26 PM
FG7, I could reply to you but it is a bit rich turning it on one month after my post and it is a Sat arvo.

I stand by my posts and could defend them just as Baz has put some holes in your positon already.

PaulS tried to pull a Sat arvo job on me as well a few weeks ago about Jewish conspiracies and I did not even read his rubbish.

firegoat7
30-04-2005, 04:10 PM
This is BS. NG didn't need a referendum to participate in WWII. Japan invaded NG as a part of its aggressive, expansionist policy and would have done so with or without Australia's involvement. Don;t forget that Japan's record as a benevolent occupier at the time was not good.


Amazing. Lets deconstruct the logic of your arguement.
1/ Australia was the sole colonial dictatorship occupying Papua New Guinea post 1920- true or false.
2/ The people of Papua New Guinea post 1920-74?? never ever had a referendum on national sovereignty whether this was wanted or not- True or False.
3) When you answer these questions you might want to consider some points on this issue. 1) Australian Indigenous people were not regarded as citizens in their own country (sic) during the period 1920-60, true-false?... considered in this light, what authority did the colonial powers have to speak for the people of PNG? Was there a democratically elected national government occupying PNG post 1920-1974 that allowed all 'BLACK' people to vote?

Answers 1:T 2:T 3:T 4:None (democratically speaking) 5:No

As for the Japanese issue, that is a different discussion. I certainly believe that a significant number of PNG indigenous people died during WW2, due to something that had little to do with 'moral' arguements and more to do with colonial imperialism. Did they deserve that outcome?



Yes the Australians preferred to fight in NG rather than Australia but your argument seems to be we should have let the Japanese take NG as that would have saved the lives of more New Guineans, but that would have been a major tactical mistake which could have prolonged the Pacific conflict by years, leading to the death of many more people of all races.

Actually that is not my arguement-that is your interpretation of my arguement. My arguement is this. The people of PNG did not have a say in whether they would participate in WW2. Being under colonial control it was presumed that we could both occupy and defend their territory against the Japanese invasion. This was for world geopolitical strategical reasons and had little concern for the people of PNG, who undoubtly had never ever seen anything like it before.



What happened after 1945 you might have some issue with in terms of lack of regard for traditional owners in the region.
It would be nice to whitewash history like this, but unfortunately (for your arguement) it is well documented. Australia has continually sought to meddle in PNG affairs for its own gain. Consider this point- In 1958 the White women's protection ordinance rule was revoked, -who made it illegal for a 'Black' man to sleep with a white women and why didn't the law work in reverse?

You may belive the myths told to you, but I prefer actual evidence.

Cheers fg7

firegoat7
30-04-2005, 04:18 PM
I stand by my posts and could defend them just as Baz has put some holes in your positon already.



Hopefully you will put up a better effort then RW. As for the holes, well show them to me and we can debate the point.



fg7, above are a load of claptrap. RW is 100% right .... and you're putting breathtaking spin on the scenario. Japan invaded PNG. Australia (and others) defended PNG, at substantial cost of Australian lives lost. If you think the Japanese would have treated the people of New Guinea well and we should've sat here on our arses and waiting for them to sail into Sydney harbour, then you're being just plain silly and deliberately provocative. Get back in yer box!


Here we go again, a third Anzac ww2 paranoia arguement. Please get the context of the arguement correct before attacking me over my posts.Dont place stupid statements in my mouth like ''you think the japanese would have treated the people of new Guinea well'. Your inference has no connection with my arguement.

Cheers Fg7

Rincewind
30-04-2005, 04:29 PM
Amazing. Lets deconstruct the logic of your arguement.
1/ Australia was the sole colonial dictatorship occupying Papua New Guinea post 1920- true or false.
2/ The people of Papua New Guinea post 1920 never ever had a referendum on national sovereignty whether this was wanted or not- True or False.
3) When you answer these questions you might want to consider some points on this issue. 1) Australian Indigenous people were not regarded as citizens in their own country (sic) during the period 1920-60, true-false?... considered in this light, what authority did the colonial powers have to speak for the people of PNG? Was there a democratically elected national government occupying PNG post 1920-1974 that allowed all 'BLACK' people to vote?

Answers 1:T 2:T 3:T 4:None (democratically speaking) 5:No

True or not this is all irrelevent to the participation of PNG natives in WWII. They lived in a place which was targetted by an aggressor. When that happens, you need no referendum.


As for the Japanese issue, that is a different discussion.

In terms of PNG involvement in WWII, it is the only discussion. Had Japan not used the European conflict as a backdrop to implement it expansion PNG would not have been involved in WWII in any significant manner. The Pacific theatre would have been simply silent.


Actually that is not my arguement-that is your interpretation of my arguement. My arguement is this. The people of PNG did not have a say in whether they would participate in WW2. Being under colonial control it was presumed that we could both occupy and defend their territory against the Japanese invasion. This was for world geopolitical strategical reasons and had little concern for the people of PNG, who undoubtly had never ever seen anything like it before.

Well I believe it is a reasonable interpretion of what you were saying. The end result of not "meddling" as you put it could have easily caused heavier casualties than what actually occurred.


It would be nice to whitewash history like this, but unfortunately (for your arguement) it is well documented. Australia has continually sought to meddle in PNG affairs for its own gain. Consider this point- In 1958 the White women's protection ordinance rule was revoked, -who made it illegal for a 'Black' man to sleep with a white women and why didn't the law work in reverse?

You may belive the myths told to you, but I prefer actual evidence.

I've no interest in your rhetoric. However, if you reread my post you will see I was actually agreeing with you on this point. I was limiting my point of disagreement with the level of Australia's manipulation of PNG in WWII. The history of colonialism globally has shown it is almost invariable to the detriment of the native populations thus colonised.

antichrist
30-04-2005, 04:37 PM
FG7,
I know the fuzzy wuzzies welcomed the Japs for one reason, they found them very tasty. A fw mate told me that.

What made you respond one month later, have you been to a revival or something, that is why I am not taking you seriously.

firegoat7
30-04-2005, 04:52 PM
True or not this is all irrelevent to the participation of PNG natives in WWII. They lived in a place which was targetted by an aggressor. When that happens, you need no referendum.
It is only irrelevent if you believe that the didn't already live in a place with an aggressor. They were colonised, not repected.






Well I believe it is a reasonable interpretion of what you were saying. The end result of not "meddling" as you put it could have easily caused heavier casualties than what actually occurred.

A really bad supposition. Heavier casualities for the people of PNG, I doubt it. For Australia sure, you may be correct. For the PNG people however, it could not have been a worse outcome.



I've no interest in your rhetoric. However, if you reread my post you will see I was actually agreeing with you on this point. I was limiting my point of disagreement with the level of Australia's manipulation of PNG in WWII. The history of colonialism globally has shown it is almost invariable to the detriment of the native populations thus colonised.

I was simply showing you that the supposed 'good' people who look after the 'natives best interests' are just as guilty, if not more of commiting atrocities against the people they are supposedly defending.

cheers Fg7

Spiny Norman
30-04-2005, 05:59 PM
...

Rest of those Raving Monster Looney Party diatribes flushed where they belong ... :wall: :crazy:

Rincewind
30-04-2005, 06:17 PM
It is only irrelevent if you believe that the didn't already live in a place with an aggressor. They were colonised, not repected.

I'm not interested in making this comparison as you were talking about involvement in WWII. If you want to cast the colonisation of PNG as an occupation you are free to do so. However it was not a part of WWII, per se.


A really bad supposition. Heavier casualities for the people of PNG, I doubt it. For Australia sure, you may be correct. For the PNG people however, it could not have been a worse outcome.

I beg to differ. Do you have any evidence for your hypothetical?


I was simply showing you that the supposed 'good' people who look after the 'natives best interests' are just as guilty, if not more of commiting atrocities against the people they are supposedly defending.

I never said anyone was good or evil. I'm not even sure I understand what those words mean. Everyone looks after their own interests first as best they can and much suffering has resulting from this behaviour.

antichrist
30-04-2005, 10:57 PM
FG7, probably all relationships between developed and non developed countries up to WW11 were exploitative. So it is a relative question did we just slap their face or murder them. Not just but that was the OM unfortunately. About the only counter movement that I can think of was the socialist/communist/peace which helped bring about facism/Nazism and the Cold War re-action.

I am not at all optimistic for the world.

You don't like fuzzy wuzzy, the Chinese call me "foreign ghost", I call myself "foreign ghost" when with them so it all depends on context. I would not want them to change, I can accept and appreciate the difference for what it is.

About being relative -- it seems the Indos are a lot more brutal to the fw than what the Aussies were. For what is acceptable in these supposedly post-colonial days anyway, that is what I am getting about being relative.

There is no god to make the world perfect so let it bleed.

ElevatorEscapee
01-05-2005, 02:47 AM
Nice arguments guys... but what does this have to do with Miss Corby? :hmm: (or, as usual, have I missed something?) :wall:

antichrist
01-05-2005, 07:57 AM
I think it was when you stuck in that elevator...

Well we were discussing sending in a commando unit to Indo to rescue Shapelle from the Muslims, you know how it is, well we could not let a good Aussie sheila waste away like that aye.

Back in the old days one month ago I stated the following re Indo:

What is this most second most important ally rubbish. We should have taken them on over West New Guinea when I was a little boy, they would have behaved themselves over East Timor and other colonies they have established. The Balinese don't want the Javanese(?) there, and many other Minority areas also don't want the transmigration that has taken place.

And in another post I mentioned the west Papuans as fuzzy wuzzies. That was the big crime.

Then yesterday FG7 who had just recovered from been comatosed for a month and who had just returned from a politically correct revivalist meeting, wants to start a blue about it. Well the horse has well and truly bolted. And this on a Sat arvo when Aussies don't do anything serious. You try and get a tradesman on a Sat arvo aye.

And I am off again to the surf shortly so you can all go su..

Otherwise I am a nice guy except to the Christians, Jews and Muslims.

arosar
01-05-2005, 08:38 AM
Well, I suppose this is another example of overeducation. But speaking of PC revivalism, check out this very non-PC website. The FREE mag is a hoot!

http://www.viceland.com/

AR

firegoat7
01-05-2005, 02:03 PM
I'm not interested in making this comparison as you were talking about involvement in WWII. If you want to cast the colonisation of PNG as an occupation you are free to do so. However it was not a part of WWII, per se.
PNG were colonised until 1975- historical fact. This includes the years 1939-44.



I beg to differ. Do you have any evidence for your hypothetical?


" practically everything Europeans had built before the war was destroyed'
"Much of the people's property was also destroyed'
'Allied bombing, ground fighting, the Japanese search for food, and to a lesser extent, looting by both Allied and Japanese soldiers caused most of this destruction"
" ...they were conscripted by both sides and sometimes felt like refugees in their own land. The war was not of the villagers making and was beyond their understanding"
John Dademo Waiko- PNG historian.

Cheers FG7

firegoat7
01-05-2005, 02:11 PM
Rest of those Raving Monster Looney Party diatribes flushed where they belong ... :wall: :crazy:

Well argued, excellent intellectual participation, and no doubt a reflection of your ability to understand complex social history. Maybe, you might be interested to know that after WW2, religion exploded in PNG, surprise surprise. If 'they' don't do you over militarially they send in the psychological terrorists.

Notice I only said maybe. My experience with religous types is that they deny reality and like to pretend they are doing good with their sheepish guilt.

Cheers Fg7

Rincewind
01-05-2005, 02:13 PM
" practically everything Europeans had built before the war was destroyed'
"Much of the people's property was also destroyed'
'Allied bombing, ground fighting, the Japanese search for food, and to a lesser extent, looting by both Allied and Japanese soldiers caused most of this destruction"
" ...they were conscripted by both sides and sometimes felt like refugees in their own land. The war was not of the villagers making and was beyond their understanding"
John Dademo Waiko- PNG historian.

And all of that would have happened over a period of 2 or 3 times longer had Japan taken PNG and had to be driven from the entire island after fortifying their positions.

jenni
01-05-2005, 03:08 PM
Nice arguments guys... but what does this have to do with Miss Corby? :hmm: (or, as usual, have I missed something?) :wall:

Well you are obviously a very ignorant person. Why on earth would anyone want to stick to thread titles? They are a mere decoration and should not be allowed to hinder the very important function of yet another debate at a tangent.


ps - talking of decorations, I have tied a yellow ribbon to my tree. Yes I know it is crassly stereotyped etc etc, but the Corby support website is asking people to do it.

We never lock our luggage when going overseas (will from now on) and I keep on imagining one of my children in Schapelle's mess.

antichrist
01-05-2005, 04:34 PM
[QUOTE=firegoat7]PNG were colonised until 1975- historical fact. This includes the years 1939-44.

A/C
Before Whitlam granting PNG independence the conservative forces warned that PNG were not ready for it. Looking retrospectively it may have been a correct assessment.

So what do you think of that FG7? We gave them the freedom to be corrupt, brutal and incompentent. Like almost the rest of if not all of Asia. I am excelling at treading on toes this arvo. Ouch, and the truth can hurt.

firegoat7
01-05-2005, 05:16 PM
And all of that would have happened over a period of 2 or 3 times longer had Japan taken PNG and had to be driven from the entire island after fortifying their positions.

Give me a break! This is no better then going to your local gypsy and asking "What does the future hold?" You have no evidence to support your supposition. You overestimate the threats imposed by the Japanese.

It doesn't even make much sense based on a historical war perspective? I mean after all in the context of WW2, How important was the PNG fight? In the context of WW2, not important, well it wasn't as important as say Coral Sea, Midway, Burma, D-Day, North Africa etc etc. Placed in a historical context, the PNG campaign was a sideshow to the main theatres of war in World War 2.

Cheers Fg7

firegoat7
01-05-2005, 05:20 PM
Before Whitlam granting PNG independence the conservative forces warned that PNG were not ready for it. Looking retrospectively it may have been a correct assessment.

So what do you think of that FG7?

It is reputed that the whole region has a history that dated 50,000 years. Over 750 languages were known to be spoken in the area. Economically, there was much exchange and interaction between tribes before colonisation.

It seems a bit rich to suggest that the place was not ready for independence, when it had such a rich history of independence before that.

Cheers Fg7

antichrist
01-05-2005, 05:35 PM
It is reputed that the whole region has a history that dated 50,000 years. Over 750 languages were known to be spoken in the area. Economically, there was much exchange and interaction between tribes before colonisation.

It seems a bit rich to suggest that the place was not ready for independence, when it had such a rich history of independence before that.

Cheers Fg7

If you considered each tribe an entity one could say that it was racked with never-ending international (or civil) war. I met that fuzzy wuzzy mate because he was in OZ for an eye operation after an inter-tribal fight. From what he told me they were a pretty common occurence. He had bashed his missus who was from another tribe, that tribe didn't bash their missus (why not?), so they had a free-for-all. I don't know if "wife-swapping" only came after colonialism?

Now Jenni, to get in the theme of things, you could go to the hairdressers and ask for FW style, not Afro!

Rincewind
01-05-2005, 05:56 PM
Give me a break! This is no better then going to your local gypsy and asking "What does the future hold?" You have no evidence to support your supposition. You overestimate the threats imposed by the Japanese.

It is a very likely scenario (a-bomb aside) and one of the main reasons that territory in the PNG campaign was fought so hard for.


It doesn't even make much sense based on a historical war perspective? I mean after all in the context of WW2, How important was the PNG fight? In the context of WW2, not important, well it wasn't as important as say Coral Sea, Midway, Burma, D-Day, North Africa etc etc. Placed in a historical context, the PNG campaign was a sideshow to the main theatres of war in World War 2.

This is all rather irrelevent, isn't it? To the soldiers and locals it was WWII. D-Day was just something they read about.

Besides, I never claimed that the PNG turned the course of the war in the Pacific in the way Midway or Coral Sea did. Ultimately it was the atomic bomb which cut short the Pacific conflict and probably would have stopped the PNG campaign taking 2-3 times longer. However, we weren't to know that at the time and so it made sense to fight Japan in PNG.

firegoat7
01-05-2005, 10:45 PM
It is a very likely scenario (a-bomb aside) and one of the main reasons that territory in the PNG campaign was fought so hard for.


I think your post ought to have said ...It is a very unlikely scenario.

Cheers Fg7

firegoat7
01-05-2005, 10:51 PM
If you considered each tribe an entity one could say that it was racked with never-ending international (or civil) war.

Why would anybody consider this as the normal status quo.




I met that fuzzy wuzzy mate because he was in OZ for an eye operation after an inter-tribal fight. From what he told me they were a pretty common occurence. He had bashed his missus who was from another tribe, that tribe didn't bash their missus (why not?), so they had a free-for-all. I don't know if "wife-swapping" only came after colonialism?

Normally I don't mind your low brow humor, but you really are reaching new lows in this thread. Same may say this is a good thing, other may disagree.

Cheers Fg7

Rincewind
01-05-2005, 10:54 PM
I think your post ought to have said ...It is a very unlikely scenario.

Very droll. Pity I was hoping for something intelligent.

firegoat7
01-05-2005, 11:01 PM
Very droll. Pity I was hoping for something intelligent.

Well what do you expect? You ask me for evidence, I provide it, you ignore it and persist with your own premises.

I disagree with your premise.

Cheers Fg7

Rincewind
02-05-2005, 12:47 AM
Well what do you expect? You ask me for evidence, I provide it, you ignore it and persist with your own premises.

I disagree with your premise.

Whatever gets you through the night, David.

antichrist
02-05-2005, 01:12 AM
Why would anybody consider this as the normal status quo.
Cheers Fg7

Of course they had independence before colonialists came, maybe true and better independence than we can have now due to worse weaponry, fighter planes, ships etc., but it was no picnic and maybe only accidental.

What I am getting at is that if they had the power to subjugate each other then maybe they would have. Colonial invaders worldwide were able to use tribal divisions to divide and conquer native peoples. Native people did not necessary have an idealistic concept of independence and respect for each other but one only based on force. As we have seen in for example Africa, different tribes wil arm themselves to the teeth, waste all their people's money fighting each other.

If Australia had stayed as ruling power another 20 years and instilled into their developing leaders principles of good governance then maybe a more mature responsible administration could have taken over and they would not have ended up a economic basket case of raskols as they have developed to.

The Filipinos after the war were offered to be the umpteen state of the USA. They famous president/leader at the time Macapagal (the father of current president I think) said something like: it is better to starve as a Filipino then to have good government by the U.S. Fifty years later with all the corruption, indiscriminate inequality and discriminating inequality based on triablism, it is often debated and concluded that if they had their chance again in hindsight it would have been a different decision.

So everything is only relative.

If the worse you do to someone is to call them a fuzzy wuzzy and get rid of the Japs for them then one is not doing too badly. Which is a different issue to colonial exploitation.

Rhubarb
02-05-2005, 02:18 AM
^ Is it just me, or did Peter make perfect sense for once? Because of my ignorance, I don't know if it was 100% factually correct or relevant (e.g. the unnecessary broadside at RP), but I was nevertheless highly impressed.

Disclaimer: In no way do I support the notions of invasion and colonialism. If the arseholes responsible weren't already dead, I'd recommend they shoot themselves.

Disclaimer #2: Then again, you can't really fight evolution and/or progress.

arosar
02-05-2005, 09:14 AM
. . . . discriminating inequality based on triablism . ..

Tribalism? You've no idea what you're talking about. As a social construct, 'tribalism' disappeared from modern RP political thought a long time ago.

There is inequality, but this is not based on some sense of a tribe. After 350 years of Spaniard rule and well over a century of American tutelage - memories about tribe have been well and truly extinguished.

AR

antichrist
02-05-2005, 09:38 AM
It is well known that President Marcos favoured his own northern-provience people with massive public works projects for decades. By building dams that meant cheap hydro-electricity, by controlling rivers it meant lucrative fish ponds etc., Ponce Enrile has square miles of them in Pangasinan. Gee he is looking old now that guy. And he is a very keen chessplayer.

That is why they stood by Marcos to the end, which is what Westerners could not understand. Which is why Imelda and her son Bong Bong can still get elected.

In the proviences they still don't trust people from other "tribes" when they marry in. The fighting can continue for 30 years.

Their pork-barrelling leave Joh Bjelke-Petersen for dead. His funeral is tomorrow - bless ourseslves.

Might be Schapelle's funeral too soon, our original topic. Not mean "too soon" as being not quick enough, we prefer a slow drawn out melodrama!

Don't worry AR, I can also put the boot into my people when in the mood. An example being the shoutbox.

firegoat7
03-05-2005, 12:49 AM
Tribalism? You've no idea what you're talking about. As a social construct, 'tribalism' disappeared from modern RP political thought a long time ago.

There is inequality, but this is not based on some sense of a tribe. After 350 years of Spaniard rule and well over a century of American tutelage - memories about tribe have been well and truly extinguished.

AR
:clap: :clap: :clap:

antichrist
03-05-2005, 09:51 AM
:clap: :clap: :clap:

FG7, I would not necessary trust AR as an authority on RP affairs. He attitude is probable more Aussie than Pinoy and I don't know how much of his adult life he has lived over there.

Over there proviencial life is very different to city life and the great masses live in the proviences, i.e., not that sophisticated as shown by their great religious devotion.

They sterotype people based on their ethnic background, for e.g., the Ilocano are very frugal; the short mountain people the Igorot(?) are supposed to be deceptive etc. etc.; the Papangans are beautiful, proud and good cooks etc etc.

Pinoy associations in OZ are also based on ethnic lines (though disguised), there are the Pangasanians, the Papangans etc.

And to prove the point I am still waiting for an answer from AR as to whether when the US "gave" the Filipinos their independence they kept the oil and mineral rights?

I am not criticising them but just stating that they are a society in great transition.

We can gasbag however much we like, what is crucial is that they control their birthrates. But when considering the whole situation I am not at all hopeful nor happy because they are basicially a very nice people who I wish well for.

arosar
03-05-2005, 10:36 AM
He attitude is probable more Aussie than Pinoy.

You prolly right.

But from time to time I like to play the dumb Asian. Like in Paris where I was nearly arrested!

AR

antichrist
03-05-2005, 10:43 AM
You prolly right.

But from time to time I like to play the dumb Asian. Like in Paris where I was nearly arrested!

AR

You think that's bad. I have been warned by Lebos, who I have upset over religion, that if I return to Leboland they will have me killed within five minutes.

"I still call Australia home.." with good reason

Now what's your story?

jenni
27-05-2005, 02:39 PM
20 years - poor kid. I am boycotting all Indonesian goods from now on (Pity their Cocunut cream is much nicer than the Thai version. :( )

antichrist
27-05-2005, 02:47 PM
Until yesterday I thought she no motive to take it over, then I read how the Aussie Gold is worth $20,000 per kg over there compared to $8000 over here, for various reasons. So then I adopted a more open mind, maybe she is guilty. If she is then her big mistake was not admitting it to avoid the big sentence.
Her story seemed a bit far-fetched, although that does not mean that she is guilty.

I have not looked at this poll for ages, and just noticed that three voted for execution. A female friend agreed with that sentence this morning would you believe.

jenni
27-05-2005, 02:58 PM
Is that true? The papers (not that I necessarily believe newspapers!) said the street value in Australia was greater than in Bali?

I guess the thing I find strange is that she would admit it was hers - anyone caught like that would immediately lie (unless they have an IQ of 50 and she doesn't seem that much of a dill!) So if they are making up that sort of evidence what else are they making up?

Anyway I belive she is innocent and I am boycotting all Indonesian goods!

firegoat7
27-05-2005, 03:21 PM
20 years - poor kid. I am boycotting all Indonesian goods from now on (Pity their Cocunut cream is much nicer than the Thai version. :( )

Jenni, did you ever think that she was guilty?

I would also like to make this point.

What role did the Australian government play in this debacle?
You would think, given the current obsession with terrorism, that Australian airports screen bags before they are placed on flights.
Was Miss Corby's baggage checked before leaving the country? Who knows?
Maybe her baggage was checked and people did not notice the drugs.

If it was checked, then the Australian government is guilty of a human right abuse, since, through their negligence or competence, they still allowed the bag through to Indonesia. Is this because "they" wanted to punish her? Who knows, all we can say is Australian customs have indirectly or directly contributed to her sentence.

If it wasn't checked then the Australian government is guilty of incompetency, it makes the security rhetoric implemented after S11, seem an absolute joke. Australian tourists flying into a Muslim country without proper baggage checks? Give me a break!! I guess that if it had been a bomb instead of drugs in her boogie board bag, the plane wouldn't have even taken off.

Could it be that Miss Corby is indeed guilty of being a drug smuggler and that the Australian government actually wanted her to be caught in Indonesia because they like the tough cultural stance that Indonesia takes in such circumstances.

The publicity this trial recieved is a media circus designed to manipulate the cult of personality. Again we are brainwashed into believing that it is the individuals fault. She is either innocent or guilty. It is her problem. When in actual fact, few bother to question the puppet masters pulling the strings, few ask 'how was this allowed to happen?' Few people bother to analyise it from the perspective of national care. Australia chooses its victims carefully, it always individualises the story so as to distort the truth into one in which
blame cannot be attributed to the system.

Cheers Fg7

firegoat7
27-05-2005, 03:29 PM
AC,

I voted for her to be executed, I make the point that she is a Queenslander :hand: :eek: ;)

Cheers Fg7

jenni
27-05-2005, 03:29 PM
Jenni, did you ever think that she was guilty?




Yep - soon as I heard it I thought she was guilty - everyone always says they are innocent when they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar. However as I have read more about the circumstances, I have swung over to believing her innocent - or at least feeling there is "reasonable doubt".

antichrist
27-05-2005, 03:32 PM
Is that true? The papers (not that I necessarily believe newspapers!) said the street value in Australia was greater than in Bali?

A/C
The story said that because it is hydroponic (?) it contains up to 15 times the amount of good stuff. And because undercover police sell the local stuff over there to catch out the tourists, the tourists much prefer to buy from a fellow Aussie or non-Indo. Apparently it had large heads which are not generally available in Indo or their suppliers. That is why it is much more valuable over there, maybe because of the stiffer penalties for getting caught drive up the price as well.

Jenni
I guess the thing I find strange is that she would admit it was hers - anyone caught like that would immediately lie (unless they have an IQ of 50 and she doesn't seem that much of a dill!) So if they are making up that sort of evidence what else are they making up?

A./C
Once she was caught and if she was guilty of course she should have admitted guilt, unless she was trying to bribe her way out. The judges said the lack of admission ensured the maximum penalty. When the judge had 100% conviction record (rightly or wrongly) well you don't tempt him to go the full hog.

Jenni
Anyway I belive she is innocent and I am boycotting all Indonesian goods!

Well good for you, I generally found other Asian countries' food was better quality than theirs, I have never tried the coconut milk. Their teas are shocking compared to the Chinese.

You could guess what I like about their country (have stayed there for a while for a sporting competition).

Kerry Stead
27-05-2005, 03:43 PM
The funny thing about this is that both sides have said they are going to appeal the decision ... Schapelle's team both the verdict and the sentence, while the prosecutors are apparently going to appeal the sentence, saying it was too lenient.
Seems like there is a lot more to this on both sides than is general public knowlegde, so it makes it very difficult to make a judgement one way or another on the matter.
What does seem strange is just how harsh the punishment is for such an offence - I heard that an Australian equivalent would be about 5 years in jail, and that the Bali bomber got 2.5 years ... hardly seems to match up ... :hmm:

arosar
27-05-2005, 03:48 PM
You shoulda hear some of the howlers this morning on talkback. Some idiot says that Indos should be compassionate to Corby cos we were compassionate to them over tsunami disaster. And that f**ktard, Ron Bakir, keeps on dancing about the media claiming the Indo people have "preset" mentality (read: stupid) and that they can't think for themselves.

As far as I'm concerned the only thing special about this affair is that we have here a blonde aussie sheila who happens to look good in a bikini. Yet, in fact, the whole situation is all standard everyday stuff. I mean, hello, what the hell happened to the Bali Nine?

Ultimately, this chick will come back with a nice multi million dollar contract for her story to be turned into a TV-drama (ala Bangkok Hilton), an interview with that idiot Ray Martin and a raunchy photoshoot for FHM. Just watch.

AR

jenni
27-05-2005, 03:51 PM
What does seem strange is just how harsh the punishment is for such an offence - I heard that an Australian equivalent would be about 5 years in jail, and that the Bali bomber got 2.5 years ... hardly seems to match up ... :hmm:

Seems like the Indonesian Jundiciary might have got pissed off about all the outside pressure and are making a statement on their independence.

I guess the real thing is that drugs should be legalised, because until they are the corruption that is stemming from the drug trade will continue to permeate all levels of our society.

firegoat7
27-05-2005, 03:56 PM
What does seem strange is just how harsh the punishment is for such an offence - I heard that an Australian equivalent would be about 5 years in jail, and that the Bali bomber got 2.5 years ... hardly seems to match up ... :hmm:

Yeah I agree.

Basically she has recieved 20 years for an economic crime. Some people call it Justice, but it seems more like power.

Cheers Fg7

jenni
27-05-2005, 03:56 PM
Ultimately, this chick will come back with a nice multi million dollar contract for her story to be turned into a TV-drama (ala Bangkok Hilton), an interview with that idiot Ray Martin and a raunchy photoshoot for FHM. Just watch.

AR

But if she stays in jail for 20 years, her whole life is gone - no opportunity to have kids (she'll be almost as old as me). Now I don't have a problem if she is guilty, but if she's not?

Anyone remember what Lindy Chamberlain looked like after 5 years in jail? She went in looking sweet and gentle and came out looking like one tough lady.

I was in Mt Isa when her trial was on and they had her hung, drawn and quartered - no-one up there had any belief in her story and it was almost like a personal affront to them. She was imprisoned unjustly and I can't help feeling this is similar......

antichrist
27-05-2005, 04:01 PM
You shoulda hear some of the howlers this morning on talkback. Some idiot says that Indos should be compassionate to Corby cos we were compassionate to them over tsunami disaster. And that f**ktard, Ron Bakir, keeps on dancing about the media claiming the Indo people have "preset" mentality (read: stupid) and that they can't think for themselves.

As far as I'm concerned the only thing special about this affair is that we have here a blonde aussie sheila who happens to look good in a bikini. Yet, in fact, the whole situation is all standard everyday stuff. I mean, hello, what the hell happened to the Bali Nine?

Ultimately, this chick will come back with a nice multi million dollar contract for her story to be turned into a TV-drama (ala Bangkok Hilton), an interview with that idiot Ray Martin and a raunchy photoshoot for FHM. Just watch.

AR

AR, this time you have come out with a beauty. That Bakir is displaying typical Lebo attitude (I guess he is one) but his heart is probably in the right place.

Re Jenni and legalising it, my neighbour told me the other day that his nephew is schrizo(?) due to ganga.

And for all those interested my neighbour reakons I behave in typical chess manner, you never what I am up to next, and coming in from all angles, he can never follow me. Is that a praise?

firegoat7
27-05-2005, 04:02 PM
I guess the real thing is that drugs should be legalised, because until they are the corruption that is stemming from the drug trade will continue to permeate all levels of our society.

Drugs are legal, just the wrong ones ;)

Cheers Fg7

antichrist
27-05-2005, 04:06 PM
But if she stays in jail for 20 years, her whole life is gone - no opportunity to have kids (she'll be almost as old as me). Now I don't have a problem if she is guilty, but if she's not?

Anyone remember what Lindy Chamberlain looked like after 5 years in jail? She went in looking sweet and gentle and came out looking like one tough lady.

I was in Mt Isa when her trial was on and they had her hung, drawn and quartered - no-one up there had any belief in her story and it was almost like a personal affront to them. She was imprisoned unjustly and I can't help feeling this is similar......

Are we sure that Lindy is innocent?? I have no idea. Because they would not allow interrogation of the young son they could not propely check things out. After that everything was a waste of money and time.

Denis_Jessop
27-05-2005, 04:06 PM
The funny thing about this is that both sides have said they are going to appeal the decision ... Schapelle's team both the verdict and the sentence, while the prosecutors are apparently going to appeal the sentence, saying it was too lenient.
Seems like there is a lot more to this on both sides than is general public knowlegde, so it makes it very difficult to make a judgement one way or another on the matter.
What does seem strange is just how harsh the punishment is for such an offence - I heard that an Australian equivalent would be about 5 years in jail, and that the Bali bomber got 2.5 years ... hardly seems to match up ... :hmm:

It's almost impossible for anyone not close to a case to know how it's really going. Press reports are a notoriously unreliable guide, first because the press cannot report all that is relevant - there isn't the space - and secondly because many reporters wouldn't have a clue anyway.

Regarding penalty, several Asian countries have even a mandatory death penalty for drug offences. I think Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand have it as either mandatory or an option but I'm not sure which are which. Sentencing is an ever-contentious area of the Criminal Law. Moreover, Indonesia operates under the Roman Dutch legal system as far as I know and its procedures and principles are rather different from ours.

DJ

jenni
27-05-2005, 04:08 PM
Drugs are legal, just the wrong ones ;)

Cheers Fg7

Well exactly - the drugs that were used early on are legal, but not later ones.

Not that I hold any brief for drug usage (although I will admit to a mild alcohol habit), but the current prohibition of some drugs is blatantly unsuccesful. If all the money put into law enforcement was spent on education on rehabilitation it would be money better spent.

jenni
27-05-2005, 04:10 PM
Are we sure that Lindy is innocent?? I have no idea. Because they would not allow interrogation of the young son they could not propely check things out. After that everything was a waste of money and time.

Yes I think all the forensic evidence in the later years was pretty conclusive.

See

http://law.anu.edu.au/highcourt_project/Chamberlain%20Case%20rtf.rtf

arosar
27-05-2005, 04:11 PM
She was imprisoned unjustly and I can't help feeling this is similar......

I, too, think she is 'probably' innocent. But there is something insencere about her. Her cries for mercy just aren't drawing out my sympathy. I dunno.

Anyway, the thing that bothers me about this is that there are some people who have this instinctive line of thinking: Indonesia = Asian country = backward legal system = corrupt legal agents. That's why that idiot Ron Bakir came out blabberin' on about how the prosecutors are all corrupt. How does he know that? Just listen to all that rubbish on talkback. The whole discussion immediately turns to 'us' and 'them' - with 'us' knowing wayyy sooo much better.

Stay tuned to ACA and see what that moron Martin has to say. Should be a hoot.

AR

Denis_Jessop
27-05-2005, 04:14 PM
20 years - poor kid. I am boycotting all Indonesian goods from now on (Pity their Cocunut cream is much nicer than the Thai version. :( )

They also make a very nice line of Coffee candy (Kopiko) often on special at Woolworths. Fortunately I have a stock large enough to last several years at current rate of consumption :rolleyes: by when all this will have become the stuff of history and George W Bush will have raided Iran and North Korea as a distraction. :evil:

DJ

arosar
27-05-2005, 04:16 PM
It's almost impossible for anyone not close to a case to know how it's really going.

How about that Mrs Corby woman - the mother? Geez what a cow. I mean, she's goin' on and on about how the Aussie government hasn't done enough. The main Indo judge should just grab a bloody shovel and give it to her I reckon.

AR

jenni
27-05-2005, 04:16 PM
Re Jenni and legalising it, my neighbour told me the other day that his nephew is schrizo(?) due to ganga.


Yep I know 2 people (one my niece) who developed Schizophrenia from Marijuana use. But what's your point? My Dad died in his forties from smoking cigarettes, what's the stats on liver disease from Alcohol? Coffee is not without its problems.

basically we've been "hard" on drugs for decades and more and more are using them. I am not saying encourage people to use them, but the current system only benefits the hoods who make obscene profits from them.

jenni
27-05-2005, 04:20 PM
Fortunately I have a stock large enough to last several years at current rate of consumption DJ

Actually I threw all our coconut cream, soy sauce etc in the bin - I think I might be in trouble when Tony gets home :D (although he is used to emotional reactions from me).

Rincewind
27-05-2005, 04:25 PM
basically we've been "hard" on drugs for decades and more and more are using them. I am not saying encourage people to use them, but the current system only benefits the hoods who make obscene profits from them.

This was one of my hobby horses for a while too. But alas the conservatives have swung the balance the other direction and continue to fill our prisons with people who have medical issues.

To my knowledge, no health issue has ever been resolved by the introduction of criminal legislation. :(

antichrist
27-05-2005, 04:26 PM
Yep I know 2 people (one my niece) who developed Schizophrenia from Marijuana use. But what's your point? My Dad died in his forties from smoking cigarettes, what's the stats on liver disease from Alcohol? Coffee is not without its problems.

basically we've been "hard" on drugs for decades and more and more are using them. I am not saying encourage people to use them, but the current system only benefits the hoods who make obscene profits from them.

I have thought for decades that fags should be banned. By lifting the allowable age one year up every year. There was an excellent doco series on SBS late at night on your point. Ultimately it is the community who has to pay in various ways for the vices so maybe community work for offenders is the way to go.

bergil
27-05-2005, 04:26 PM
Kerry,

Compairing the 2.5 years for a crime that wasn't on the books before the act happened is not right, that doesn't mean the bastard should not have been jailed longer.

The harsh drug penalties though have been widely known for a long time. All countries have the right to determine there own legal system and penalties, it may be that Indonesian penalties for drug dealing or running is better than ours. Either way. the cases are not related, it only confuses and heightens the emotional response to the situation.

I feel sorry for the her guilty or not, but I don't see taking it out on the people of Bali as fair or reasonable IMO.

antichrist
27-05-2005, 04:29 PM
What a hot thread this arvo and I am supposed to be working.

jenni
27-05-2005, 04:37 PM
I feel sorry for the her guilty or not, but I don't see taking it out on the people of Bali as fair or reasonable IMO.
Boycotts are a legitimate, non-violent, way of exerting pressure.

antichrist
27-05-2005, 04:40 PM
Boycotts are a legitimate, non-violent, way of exerting pressure.

When I stayed there years ago the Balinese were wonderful people, not pushy etc, nor greedy for money, the tourists enabled them to pay school fees etc which about 1980 schooling had become compulsory. The judicial system and ganga trade has nothing to do with them so why take it out on them.

jenni
27-05-2005, 04:48 PM
When I stayed there years ago the Balinese were wonderful people, not pushy etc, nor greedy for money, the tourists enabled them to pay school fees etc which about 1980 schooling had become compulsory. The judicial system and ganga trade has nothing to do with them so why take it out on them.

I also liked them and loved my time in Bali - however what else do you suggest? It is better than death threats on the embassy :confused:

Kerry Stead
27-05-2005, 05:01 PM
Kerry,

Compairing the 2.5 years for a crime that wasn't on the books before the act happened is not right, that doesn't mean the bastard should not have been jailed longer.

The harsh drug penalties though have been widely known for a long time. All countries have the right to determine there own legal system and penalties, it may be that Indonesian penalties for drug dealing or running is better than ours. Either way. the cases are not related, it only confuses and heightens the emotional response to the situation.

I feel sorry for the her guilty or not, but I don't see taking it out on the people of Bali as fair or reasonable IMO.
I understand that the assorted terrorism-related crimes have only become commonplace in legal systems this century. However when you look at the end result of the two acts, they hardly seem comparable - the Bali bomber leaves a club destroyed and people dead ... Corby, assuming she is a trafficker, leaves with a profit from the drug habits of others - in effect she is punished for being in business ...
Yes, the drug penalties are widely known, and obviously it is a risk that one takes going to such a country, however if one assumes for a second that she is innocent, how are you to stop something like this happening to you as an innocent traveller?
I'm not saying I have a problem with the people of Bali as such, I was simply pointing out the unusual nature of the legal system there, and in particular its punishment regimes.

arosar
27-05-2005, 05:03 PM
Boycotts are a legitimate, non-violent, way of exerting pressure.

Yes, but consider who you're ultimately hurting: the Balinese people, their livelihood. Now we have travel agents saying they'll impose a ban on trips to Bali. What a bunch of shallow-minded bastads.

AR

jenni
27-05-2005, 05:09 PM
Yes, but consider who you're ultimately hurting: the Balinese people, their livelihood. Now we have travel agents saying they'll impose a ban on trips to Bali. What a bunch of shallow-minded bastads.

AR
The boycotts on South Africa in the 70's and 80's hurt the blacks much more than the whites, but ultimately brought freedom. That was obviously a much easier case to justify - short term pain for long term gain.

I agree this has only pain for the Balinese and no long term objective to be achieved for them, however I want to do something and wussy petitions to the Indonesian Government are a waste of time.

Spiny Norman
27-05-2005, 05:20 PM
Did anyone notice the size of that bag of weed? It was huge. 4KG they reckon? Boogie boards aren't that large, or particularly heavy. You would think that anyone picking it up would immediately notice the major change in both weight and volume. I'd believed all along that she was "innocent but would be found guilty" ... this morning, before the verdict, I changed my mind and decided "guilty and would be found guilty". Still, none of us were present in the court. Its a bit hard to argue with an official that testifies "She told me she did it" when under oath.

antichrist
27-05-2005, 05:43 PM
I would feel more at ease if the judge did not have a perfect guilty record.

WhiteElephant
27-05-2005, 05:48 PM
Schapelle's mother and brother are convicted felons...this is all leading to their biggest pay day, much more so than if Schapelle had successfully sold the stuff.

antichrist
27-05-2005, 05:55 PM
You can all hate me but I thought a good compromise (if guilty but not admitting) was for her to put herself at the disposal of the judge to be kept by him and looked after by him and treated "kindly and gently" by him whilst succumbing... for say xxx years

Libby
27-05-2005, 06:00 PM
I, too, think she is 'probably' innocent. But there is something insencere about her. Her cries for mercy just aren't drawing out my sympathy. I dunno.

Anyway, the thing that bothers me about this is that there are some people who have this instinctive line of thinking: Indonesia = Asian country = backward legal system = corrupt legal agents. That's why that idiot Ron Bakir came out blabberin' on about how the prosecutors are all corrupt. How does he know that? Just listen to all that rubbish on talkback. The whole discussion immediately turns to 'us' and 'them' - with 'us' knowing wayyy sooo much better.

Stay tuned to ACA and see what that moron Martin has to say. Should be a hoot.

AR

Did you catch Media Watch on Monday night? They ran some absolutely extraordinary tape of some complete moron on talkback in Sydney (the actual announcer which makes it even worse) comparing the Judges to a bunch of monkeys and making references to them swinging in trees and throw them some bananas etc etc

Channel 9's coverage has been a scandal in itself. Is anyone out there actually a journalist anymore?

I have no idea if she did it or not. Seems an exceptionally stupid thing to have done but how could I possibly know. I don't know the girl myself and the reporting of the whole event has been so extraordinarily hysterical & lopsided that I feel any opinion I may have had is tainted by my distaste for it.

Rincewind
27-05-2005, 06:03 PM
You can all hate me but ...

Too late. ;)

antichrist
27-05-2005, 06:13 PM
Too late. ;)

And I am becoming too late for seeing my friends to night who love me because I can keep them laughing all night.

Loved your quip in shoutbox

How come there was no abuse in this thread, was it because a certain person was not here?

Axiom
27-05-2005, 07:45 PM
there are millions of humans languishing in jails worldwide, solely due to health issues, ie. drug dependance.....to criminilize the self administering of ADDICTIVE substances, is to OWN a fellow human......human rights suggest we have the right to do with our bodies as we wish, the govt's responsibility is ONLY to ensure we have the education and support to exercise REAL choiceS in these rights,not to PUNISH humans SIMPLY enacting out their intrinsic human rights..................the real reason that these anti human drug laws persist is due the tight synergy between huge black market profiteers and the so called "moral majority", this stereophonic drone has quelled the voices of concern at this gross destruction of basic human freedoms......such a mega betrayal of our primal human liberty,leaves many bitter , angry and sickened at this most evil example of "man's inhumanity to man"

Kevin Bonham
27-05-2005, 07:48 PM
Anyway I belive she is innocent and I am boycotting all Indonesian goods!

I think this is silly. Firstly there have been articles in both the Age and the Australian in recent weeks discussing how Corby would stand if she was charged in Australia and the same case unfolded, both of which quoted legal experts saying there was a fair chance she would be found guilty here too. To some degree this may be down to incompetence by her defence team but that is hardly the Indonesian legal system's fault.

Secondly there are so many things Australian goods could be just as easily be boycotted for - for instance the current revelations about our immigration officials deporting people who had done nothing wrong at all.

Kevin Bonham
27-05-2005, 07:53 PM
What does seem strange is just how harsh the punishment is for such an offence - I heard that an Australian equivalent would be about 5 years in jail, and that the Bali bomber got 2.5 years ... hardly seems to match up ... :hmm:

Bashir was found guilty of being involved in the plotting of it ... some of those who actually carried it out have been sentenced to death.

The Bashir case was also a very difficult one for authorities because a heavy sentence risked turning him into a martyr and provoking an upswelling of popular sentiment in his favour, which would not have been a good thing. Too light a sentence would have resulted in a soft-on-terror message being sent.

I don't personally believe anyone should be jailed at all for anything really to do with marijuana so while it's true that the Aus courts are more lenient, I don't see that leniency as much of a saving grace for our system.

eclectic
27-05-2005, 07:55 PM
will a written judgement be released for public scrutiny?

eclectic

Oepty
27-05-2005, 07:59 PM
My opinion has been for almost since this story started is that she was either innocent or incedibly stupid and naive. I am not sure which. There seems to have been some strong evidence from the Indonesian officals who dealt with the case. I think it is unfair to just dismiss this and certainly alot harder to dismiss than her defense evidence.
If she is guilty then it is sad because SHE has mucked up her life and will spend many years in prison, barring a successful appeal or pardon. She also should not be complaining about the length of her sentence. She should have known what the penalty was before she did the crime, if she didn't then that is her fault not the Indonesian legal system. I wonder though how she got the drugs out of Australia if she was guilty, very poor work by our customs offical if not worse.
If she is not guilty then what can be said. She will suffer greatly for something she has not done, very, very sad.
I just hope the right disicion has been made.
Scott

Axiom
27-05-2005, 08:01 PM
the current fixation on the small picture ie. the PROCESS, distracts us from the big picture,ie. the LAWS themselves.

Kevin Bonham
27-05-2005, 08:04 PM
On the schizophrenia/marijuana link this is still extremely dodgy. I have seen persuasive criticisms of the two recent papers supposed to have proved a link - one of which tested for a link only with schizotypal tendencies (not the same thing) and didn't prove causation anyway, the other of which essentially extrapolated from a mere three study subjects who had developed schizophrenia post drug-use.

Causation is always very difficult to prove with things like this. It could instead be that those with a propensity to develop signs of schizophrenia also have a propensity to use dope. You can't say that just because you knew someone who used dope then "became" schizophrenic that one must have caused the other.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the claims that some people are genetically susceptible to drug-induced mental illness are true. The extent to which it influences people's moods seems to vary hugely from person to person.

Kevin Bonham
27-05-2005, 08:06 PM
I wonder though how she got the drugs out of Australia if she was guilty, very poor work by our customs offical if not worse.

Is it normal for customs to check for prohibited material on departure as well as on arrival?

Axiom
27-05-2005, 08:13 PM
it is fact, that in its unadulteratad form. alcohol and smoking cause far more deaths and ill health than the use of pure coke, heroin, or cannabis(unless smoked, ofcourse!) combined........as i said the synergetic relationship between black market and moral majority allow these demonic laws to persist................. jenni is completely right to suggest that money would be better spent on health clinics than prisons, ie. it is a health issue , not a judicial one.

Bill Gletsos
27-05-2005, 08:41 PM
Is it normal for customs to check for prohibited material on departure as well as on arrival?I seem to recall customs officials saying that outgoing baggage is scanned for bombs/explosives, not for drugs.

Axiom
27-05-2005, 10:03 PM
ms corby like millions of others are simply victims ,caught up in an evil process ,of deluding the masses, destroying many, whilst reaping profits , directly or indirectly, believing the falsehood that illicit drugs are illicit for "good reason"

Duff McKagan
27-05-2005, 11:18 PM
The boycotts on South Africa in the 70's and 80's hurt the blacks much more than the whites, but ultimately brought freedom. That was obviously a much easier case to justify - short term pain for long term gain.

What a silly thing to say Mrs O. While I am not for a moment condoning apartide, it is not an accident that SA has become a basket case since the fall of Botha. The assertion that it is short term pain for long term gain is silly. It is long term pain for a chance of some gain, which means may be no gain at all. :wall:

antichrist
27-05-2005, 11:21 PM
I can remember a time before illicit drugs were around and I did not see any of the thousands of maddies I have seen since, and have had to tolerate.

They squatting in buildings I was responsible for, with no toilet facilities for many people, shit everywhere, rats everywhere, piles of rubbish everwhere, hundreds of syringes everywhere, prostitutes in action out in the open during daytime, no electricity, no water -- young people no better than rubbish.

I have seen people die in the streets of Cabramatta (no longer), prostitution of once beautiful young people offering themselves to me, people unconscious on the ground in the rain. Robberies everywhere etc etc.

With freedom comes responsibility. Why should people like myself have to tolerate such rubbish, my taxes going towards supporting them etc etc

Dump them all on a deserted island and make them look after themselves and drug themselves to death if they want to.

Duff McKagan
27-05-2005, 11:23 PM
Boogie boards aren't that large, or particularly heavy. You would think that anyone picking it up would immediately notice the major change in both weight and volume.

Agreed. And furthermore, what kind of idiot lugs a boogie board around the worlds airports when you ccan buy one for $10 when you get there. :rolleyes:

Duff McKagan
27-05-2005, 11:38 PM
...human rights suggest we have the right to do with our bodies as we wish,

Almost "as we wish."


...the govt's responsibility is ONLY to ensure we have the education and support to exercise REAL choiceS in these rights...

"ONLY" ????

I live in a mostly liberal mostly democratic society with security of food, lodgings and health care. In return for these rights, I have a reponsability to ware a seat belt, stay away from street drugs, and dont hurt people.

Our laws on some behaviours are a stick to help us keep our end of the bargin. If you dont like it, go and live as a hunter-gatherer.:P

Duff McKagan
27-05-2005, 11:46 PM
Causation is always very difficult to prove with things like this. It could instead be that those with a propensity to develop signs of schizophrenia also have a propensity to use dope.

Did you once upon a time work for Big Tobacco? if so, you probably know that those with a propensity to develop lung cancer also have a propensity to smoke cigarettes. :hand:

Axiom
27-05-2005, 11:51 PM
the point is , it is better for all, if money was spent on drug use as a health issue, rather than a punishment based one.........and the point most people miss, and that most problems caused by illicit drugs are DUE TO THE FACT THAT THEY ARE ILLICIT!

firegoat7
27-05-2005, 11:53 PM
If you dont like it, go and live as a hunter-gatherer.:P

Bit hard to live the H&G lifestyle when agrarians keep fencing of the lands. :eek:

Axiom
27-05-2005, 11:53 PM
the point is , it is better for all, if money was spent on drug use as a health issue, rather than a punishment based one.........and the point most people miss, - most problems caused by illicit drugs are DUE TO THE FACT THAT THEY ARE ILLICIT!

Duff McKagan
27-05-2005, 11:55 PM
it is fact, that in its unadulteratad form. alcohol and smoking cause far more deaths and ill health than the use of pure coke, heroin, or cannabis (unless smoked, ofcourse!) combined.

Look, I agree that many drugs that are now illegal ough not be. But, you are talking rubbish in this quote. Sure enough, the absolute numbers are greater, but the proportions are not. Smack kills the unwary, coke addiction leads to life long depression and THC turns people into life long dullards. Yes drugs are "bad", alcohol included, but some are worse than others.

Cheers, your shout :D

firegoat7
27-05-2005, 11:59 PM
Axiom,

Yes you are quite right.
I remember hearing a radio interview with Timothy Leary, just before he died. The interviewer asked him if he would buy LSD. He said you would have to be mad to buy LSD from the street, because its illegality ensures that it is cut by the pushers. In his opinion, trusting criminals to look after your health was just plain stupid, an indictment upon societies irrationality towards drugs.

Cheers Fg7

Axiom
28-05-2005, 12:00 AM
Cannabis, much maligned as a threat to mental health, including memory,ordered thinking, logic,clear thinking,planning...yet an australian chess championship had 3 prizewinners, all regularly smoking pot at the time(inbetween all rounds), including the winner!............ myths abound unfortunately, and clear thinking on the drug debate sadly lacking

Bill Gletsos
28-05-2005, 12:00 AM
But, you are talking rubbish in this quote.Duff, see how easy it is to refer to other peoples points as rubbish. ;)

Bill Gletsos
28-05-2005, 12:03 AM
Cannabis, much maligned as a threat to mental health, including memory,ordered thinking, logic,clear thinking,planning...yet an australian chess championship had 3 prizewinners, all regularly smoking pot at the time(inbetween all rounds), including the winner!............ myths abound unfortunately, and clear thinking on the drug debate sadly lackingPerhaps they would be 100 Elo stronger if they didnt use cannabis. ;)

Duff McKagan
28-05-2005, 12:09 AM
ms corby like millions of others are simply victims ,caught up in an evil process ,of deluding the masses, destroying many, whilst reaping profits , directly or indirectly, believing the falsehood that illicit drugs are illicit for "good reason"

More rubbish. Drugs ought not be illicit because their illicitness causes even greater problems. However, there are extremely good reasons why some recreational drug should be illegal. The problem is that those reasons do not out weigh the problems that their illegality causes.

If you ever have the experience of working in a rehab centre or a stint psych ward, or a casuality department on Saturday night, or even just read the literature, you will know that recreational psychoactive drugs are mostly bad news.

Please dont peddle stupidity that some of these drugs are harmless enough.

Axiom
28-05-2005, 12:13 AM
i didnt say that drugs werent "bad news" i simply said it is WORSE NEWS to criminilise drugs!

antichrist
28-05-2005, 12:14 AM
Cannabis, much maligned as a threat to mental health, including memory,ordered thinking, logic,clear thinking,planning...yet an australian chess championship had 3 prizewinners, all regularly smoking pot at the time(inbetween all rounds), including the winner!............ myths abound unfortunately, and clear thinking on the drug debate sadly lacking

I have had mates "smoke" while playing chess, and pretty soon afterwards are hopeless.

firegoat7
28-05-2005, 12:19 AM
I can remember a time before illicit drugs were around Maybe your romantic memory was simply unaware that they have always been around.



With freedom comes responsibility. Why should people like myself have to tolerate such rubbish, my taxes going towards supporting them etc etc
Because to not tolerate is worse for a society that values pluralism. People have problems, you should try and help them, respect the fact that they are human beings. As Axiom points out 'it is the illegality that is the problem, not the drugs themselves.' The main problem with hard drug use like heroin etc is economical. Habits become very expensive.

I have seen kids croming and sniffing glue in my neighbourhood in broad daylight. When I first saw this it shocked me, and I thought to myself, this is just really sad. I would rather see these kids hooked on heroin, medicated by authorised doctors, then to witness the brutal destruction of this type of drug use. At least there is the possibility that there brains will stay somewhat intact.




Dump them all on a deserted island and make them look after themselves and drug themselves to death if they want to.

Yes maybe this really is the answer. Develop a part of the world where these type of addicts can live in peace with legal drug usage. Remember if everyone was a drug addict then its no longer a deviant behavioural problem, it becomes an accepted norm.

Final point, There is a famous quote- It wasn't heroin addicts who built the Nuclear bomb, it was scientists.

Cheers Fg7

Axiom
28-05-2005, 12:19 AM
i didnt say :DURING"!................clear thinking?

Duff McKagan
28-05-2005, 12:20 AM
Duff, see how easy it is to refer to other peoples points as rubbish. ;)

:doh:

:lol: I resign.

:)

Lucky this is topic not as imortant as chess :uhoh:

Axiom
28-05-2005, 12:21 AM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 45 huh?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i didnt say "DURING"!................clear thinking?

Duff McKagan
28-05-2005, 12:34 AM
i didnt say that drugs werent "bad news" i simply said it is WORSE NEWS to criminilise drugs!

There is a strong impliction to the affect of certain drugs being "harmless enough":

"... believing the falsehood that illicit drugs are illicit for "good reason"

and

"Cannabis, much maligned as a threat to mental health, ...yet an australian chess championship and 3 prizewinners, all regularly smoking pot at the time (inbetween all rounds), including the winner"


Axiom, cut the nonsense and just say "Drugs are generally bad news for our physical and/or mental health and we shouldnt use them," and I will shout you a beer. :D

Kevin Bonham
28-05-2005, 12:35 AM
Saw this on another forum:


Misunderstanding Indonesian law: Schapelle Corby, Bali 9, Bali bombers

Media Release, Monday 16 May 2005


Indonesian law expert Tim Lindsey will address some of the furphies, mistakes, misunderstandings and confusion about Indonesia’s criminal justice system in a free public lecture tomorrow (Tuesday May 17).

Professor Tim Lindsey is Professor of Asian Law in the Faculty of Law at the University of Melbourne. He is also Director of the Asian Law Centre and Deputy Director of the Centre for the Study of Contemporary Islam.

The free public lecture will explain the basic features of the Indonesian legal system and will draw on examples from the Bali drugs cases and the Jemaah Islamiyah trials to identify its strengths and weaknesses.

Professor Tim Lindsey said the media frenzy surrounding the drugs trials of Schapelle Corby and the Bali 9 had created widespread confusion about the Indonesian criminal justice system, with most reports suggesting it is biased and primitive.

“Most of these reports are based, however, on serious mistakes. For example, despite persistent claims that Indonesian law presumes guilt, the fact is that it certainly does not. Indonesian legislation clearly places the burden of proof on the prosecution and provides for a presumption of innocence similar to that which applies in Australia,” he said.

“Another widespread furphy is the assumption that because Indonesia does not have juries, its trial process is inherently unfair. The fact is that the absence of juries is a feature of the European-derived Civil Law tradition, the legal tradition followed by most countries in the world today. Indonesia inherited this tradition from France via the Dutch, who colonised Indonesia. Law without juries works well in most countries in the world.”

Professor Lindsey said although the Indonesian legal system provided the sorts of rights and protections for the accused that might be expected in Australian courts, they were not always upheld in the same way in practice.

“There may be room for criticism of the Bali drugs trials but we should not condemn the Indonesian system on false grounds or simply because it is different to our own.”

antichrist
28-05-2005, 12:36 AM
Maybe your romantic memory was simply unaware that they have always been around.
_________________________________
A/C
I knew this reply before posting, but all intentions and purposes there were no illicit drugs in the general community. My mates in a band were amongst the first, and they lost all ambition, and did not care about many important things in life.


I have had to tolerate druggies 24 hours a day. I used to live in Cabramatta and work in Redfern. They put the building on fire that I was responsbile for and everything mentioned earlier.


____________________________________________
FG7
Because to not tolerate is worse for a society that values pluralism.
_______________________________________
A/C
Pluralism of decent things not body pollution.
____________________________________
FG7
People have problems, you should try and help them, respect the fact that they are human beings.
__________________________________________
A/C
Which they bring upon themselves, maybe some blame also go to parents. But it seems that people abused as children often become druggies, very sad. But many not abused also become addicts.
______________________________________
FG7
As Axiom points out 'it is the illegality that is the problem, not the drugs themselves.' The main problem with hard drug use like heroin etc is economical. Habits become very expensive.
____________________________________________
A/C
Definitely the cart before the horse here. Whether illegal or legal they will still destroy lives. Stuffing up the brain has nothing to do with money.
___________________________________
FG7
I have seen kids croming and sniffing glue in my neighbourhood in broad daylight. When I first saw this it shocked me, and I thought to myself, this is just really sad. I would rather see these kids hooked on heroin, medicated by authorised doctors, then to witness the brutal destruction of this type of drug use. At least there is the possibility that there brains will stay somewhat intact.
________________________________________
A/C
I never felt sad for anything I seen. I just seen wasted opportunity of youth and made me angry that they do it to themselves. If they treat themselves as rubbish then they can expect the same treatment from the general community.
_____________________________________
FG7


Yes maybe this really is the answer. Develop a part of the world where these type of addicts can live in peace with legal drug usage. Remember if everyone was a drug addict then its no longer a deviant behavioural problem, it becomes an accepted norm.
_________________________________________________-

A/C
Yes, and it will be full of all sorts of diseases. I did a bicycle tour of hippy Nimbin in 1975 and it was sickening. Full of disease.
__________________________________________
Final point, There is a famous quote- It wasn't heroin addicts who built the Nuclear bomb, it was scientists.

Cheers Fg7

They are both pollutants, one is voluntarily personally injected and the other involuntarily communally.

Bill Gletsos
28-05-2005, 12:39 AM
:doh:

:lol: I resign.

:)Unlike you I've just had a regular supply of rubbish sprouted by a few posters with 4 main regular contributors. :whistle:

Lucky this is topic not as imortant as chess :uhoh:Spoken like a true lover of the game. ;)

Kevin Bonham
28-05-2005, 12:59 AM
Did you once upon a time work for Big Tobacco?

No.


if so, you probably know that those with a propensity to develop lung cancer also have a propensity to smoke cigarettes. :hand:

You have an unfortunate habit of deploying my friend the :hand: emoticon after remarkably weak points, which rather diminishes his value. Or maybe the suggestion is that when you wade into debate, your head really isn't listening.

So, Duff's hand, consider this: Firstly, your head is engaging in implied generalisation from one example. Second, it's far easier to see how schizotypy could itself cause a greater likelihood of drug use. It is not so easy to see how lung cancer could cause smoking, especially not if the latter precedes the former by decades. Thirdly, in the early days of smoking/lung cancer research, the idea that those living lifestyles involving an increased lung cancer risk may have been also been more likely to smoke may well have been a viable hypothesis. Fourthly, I am not saying that marijuana use definitely doesn't cause schizophrenia, or that the causation is definitely the other way round, or that both are necessarily caused by some other overarching factor. I am just saying that alternative explanations have not yet been eliminated and that the so-called "proof" remains flimsy and open to challenge.

firegoat7
28-05-2005, 01:20 AM
Hello AC,

I have taken exception to this point.


Definitely the cart before the horse here. Whether illegal or legal they will still destroy lives. Stuffing up the brain has nothing to do with money.

Actually AC, heroin use does little damage to your brain, if the product is pure. It is certainly a lot less harmful then alcohol or nicotine in this regard. The point you miss is that a lot of so called normal people, professionals, can function quite well in our society, despite having a heroin habit. While it is true that some people hit rock bottom with these dependencies, quite often the homeless addict is somebody who comes from a disadvantaged socio-economic position to begin with. In other words its quicker to hit the streets when your poor instead of rich.

Cheers Fg7

Kevin Bonham
28-05-2005, 01:53 AM
firegoat is correct - apart from the incorrect use risks the main issue with heroin is that it is inordinately expensive, creating massive financial problems (which can then lead to property crime) for those who try to use it on low to medium incomes.

paulb
28-05-2005, 03:48 AM
The dingo did it :)

I think 20 years is tough for a bit of marryjujuanahh .... but that's their law ... and curious as to why people are so convinced she's innocent (I mean she might be, but she might not. There were witnesses, after all ... they all lie because they're Indonesian?). For my sake, I wouldn't dare get between her and a big bag of the bad stuff. And her folks are pretty scary ...

paulb
28-05-2005, 03:51 AM
Surely she deserves a hefty penalty for having a name like Schapellle ... and as for Mercedes ... goodness scracious

Garvinator
28-05-2005, 03:54 AM
is that really Paul B replying there? Doesnt seem like his style of writing ie the acf bulletins? Thoughts? Maybe it is just too early in the morning :eek:

paulb
28-05-2005, 04:05 AM
Yes
PaulB
Well into his cups
Long hard week
ACF Bulletin late but out
Now ... another glass ... and young Schappelle.
Like our illustrious racist fascist adulterous (yes) leader John Howard, I feel for the girl. :)

Tough sentence, but Australia's generally happy for SE Asia to go hard on drugs, since we benefit (in the case of heroin, I'd say).

Curious ... all the talk about the standard of evidence ... reversal of the burden of proof blah bvlah blah ... reminded of the case of that German (?) bloke sentenced for killing his wife .... no witness ... no motive ... etc ... but convicted "beyond reasonable doubt" in Oz ... spent 10 years in jail before the real killler confessed ... the idea that our cases are "proven" while their's arent is dubious .... 4 witnesses over there. That's heaps, *even* by our standards. hi Garvin

Spiny Norman
28-05-2005, 08:42 AM
heroin use does little damage to your brain, if the product is pure. It is certainly a lot less harmful then alcohol or nicotine in this regard.

Well we'd better make it compulsory in our schools then ... that way, everyone can benefit "for life" from this wonderful product and, hopefully, less people will be addicted to smokes and alcohol because they'll be so busy shooting up instead.

Thunderspirit
28-05-2005, 09:26 AM
You shoulda hear some of the howlers this morning on talkback. Some idiot says that Indos should be compassionate to Corby cos we were compassionate to them over tsunami disaster. And that f**ktard, Ron Bakir, keeps on dancing about the media claiming the Indo people have "preset" mentality (read: stupid) and that they can't think for themselves.

As far as I'm concerned the only thing special about this affair is that we have here a blonde aussie sheila who happens to look good in a bikini. Yet, in fact, the whole situation is all standard everyday stuff. I mean, hello, what the hell happened to the Bali Nine?

Ultimately, this chick will come back with a nice multi million dollar contract for her story to be turned into a TV-drama (ala Bangkok Hilton), an interview with that idiot Ray Martin and a raunchy photoshoot for FHM. Just watch.

AR

AR I agree with your cynanism but I don't think they will let her go, becuase they know if she comes home, she'll get out... She'll be there for a while sadly...

FM_Bill
28-05-2005, 09:31 AM
Someone goes to jail because a bag of dead leaves is found in their luggage, most likely put there by someone else.

When will Fide drug-testers start putting chessplayers in jail who refuse to have a drug test? (or the result is faulty)

sounds fair to me

antichrist
28-05-2005, 09:59 AM
Hello AC,

I have taken exception to this point.



Actually AC, heroin use does little damage to your brain, if the product is pure. It is certainly a lot less harmful then alcohol or nicotine in this regard. The point you miss is that a lot of so called normal people, professionals, can function quite well in our society, despite having a heroin habit. While it is true that some people hit rock bottom with these dependencies, quite often the homeless addict is somebody who comes from a disadvantaged socio-economic position to begin with. In other words its quicker to hit the streets when your poor instead of rich.

Cheers Fg7

It is terrible that I was brought up as a traditonal village Lebo to have no vices except women (as many Westerners as well no doubt). I also see it from an evolutionary view point. The only difference between us and the apes is our rational brain (me??) so it is absolutely disgusting that we will risk stuffing it up. Why can't anything be simple.

Where is people's natural personality that they need such rubbish, are all their middle names "boredom". PaulS and TCN I will grant you are certs.

For myself a non-smoking tee-totaller who obviously gets a lot of fun out of life heroin is just another curse around society's neck. And society is left to pick up the pieces. And indiviually we have tolerate and see such rubbish people playing out their chosen rubbish role.

SEX INTERCOURSE (in capitals in honour of Gra Kennedy) is our big high, for good reason, that it guarantees survival of the species, that is why our urge is so strong even resorting to terrible rape. I hope and not hope that I am talking for myself here (not to myself as well).

Society is amiss not in legalising pure heroin but in not satisfying an individual's psychological welfare and needs in a few areas that drive some people to destructive and/or exciting behaviour.

If heroin did not exist would you suggest that chemists go out and invent it? I doubt it. People would just survive without it and society would be better off.

Duff McKagan
28-05-2005, 10:24 AM
SEX INTERCOURSE (in capitals in honour of Gra Kennedy) is our big high, for good reason, that it guarantees survival of the species,

Getting your rocks off is not a necessary characteristic fo r survival of a species. There are 3000+ mammal species. Enlighten us as to why female chimps are the only females to have the capacity orgasm. For example, circumcised females still have babies to the extent that their culture did not disappear in a few generations.

Cheers. :D


PS Let me just add that many other animals use naturally occuring chemicals to stimulate the pleasure centers of their brain. Seekin g pleasure is not an intrinsically wrong this to do.

antichrist
28-05-2005, 11:09 AM
Getting your rocks off is not a necessary characteristic fo r survival of a species.

I thought it was for humans.



There are 3000+ mammal species. Enlighten us as to why female chimps are the only females to have the capacity orgasm. For example, circumcised females still have babies to the extent that their culture did not disappear in a few generations.

Cheers. :D

Sorry, but what has this to do with the price of eggs. I only have basic knowledge.


PS Let me just add that many other animals use naturally occuring chemicals to stimulate the pleasure centers of their brain. Seekin g pleasure is not an intrinsically wrong this to do.

You mean like humans taking grog and drugs? I prefer the real thing.

firegoat7
28-05-2005, 11:14 AM
If heroin did not exist would you suggest that chemists go out and invent it? I doubt it. People would just survive without it and society would be better off.

Let me frame this debate for you. I have never nor will I personally take a drug like heroin, unless it is supplied to me by a registered doctor to alleviate physical pain. Heroin or the derivatives of, namely morephine, the opiates are used to relieve pain, this is why a lot of people use them.

Now like most people in the 'western' world, I have had my share of close friends die from heroin addiction. People that I love and care about, human beings. What annoys me, the most is that these deaths are just so unnecessary. Prescribed by a doctor and regulated and used in a civilised manner, most of these deaths would have been avoided.

You can go on all you like about your 'traditional' society myth, I'm sure its very romantic and was the absolute perfectsville inside your head. But the reality is this, a)the banning of the drug opium is political b) It's derivatives are used by modern medical practioners (what do you think they give road trauma accident victims) c) Its illegality causes serious health problems.

It is the state that makes these people criminals by forcing their behaviour to be illegal. Moreover, certain people have been consuming this drug for a very long time, not that this is in itself necessarily a good thing, but need I remind you that we are talking about a biological plant.

Cheers Fg7
P.S did you know AC that 'poppyseeds', those little black things on rolls, taken in large enough numbers will actually cause you to fail a drug test. Don't laugh its happend to people, you might be stonned now without even realising.

antichrist
28-05-2005, 11:54 AM
Let me frame this debate for you. I have never nor will I personally take a drug like heroin, unless it is supplied to me by a registered doctor to alleviate physical pain. Heroin or the derivatives of, namely morephine, the opiates are used to relieve pain, this is why a lot of people use them.

Now like most people in the 'western' world, I have had my share of close friends die from heroin addiction. People that I love and care about, human beings. What annoys me, the most is that these deaths are just so unnecessary. Prescribed by a doctor and regulated and used in a civilised manner, most of these deaths would have been avoided.

A/C
Why should doctors have to presribe for a junkie who they may very well detest? I have close relationships with many people in the medical profession and they all hate junkies. Do you realise how much extra work and cost junkies cost the health system? Why should health professionals have to even touch junkies full of disease?

Why should junkies put themselves into this position of dependency? Where is their pride and commonsense?

Junkies should go to their dealer for salvation not a to person who detests them.

These deaths occur because before getting too deep in the water they thought they were smart arses who could defeat the laws of biology and those of the land. Not that I support many laws of the land.

FG7
You can go on all you like about your 'traditional' society myth, I'm sure its very romantic and was the absolute perfectsville inside your head. But the reality is this, a)the banning of the drug opium is political b) It's derivatives are used by modern medical practioners (what do you think they give road trauma accident victims) c) Its illegality causes serious health problems.

A/C
Do you know that I have never heard of one relative of mine being on any illegal substances, and I have about a thousand relos in OZ. So it is not just in my mind. We just have a strong ethic of being responsible to especially our families, and to buying houses for our future (and chess centres if you are lucky). And I am sure that our close bonds has something to do with it. Even whilst a youngster I thought Lebos had something over the Aussies due to our closer bonding. And now I have seen many Aussies and others join our groups just for that closer bonding.

Of course we use the benefits of the drug whilst outlawing the disadvantages, like everything else. We don't condone using motor oil for cooking, nor sniffing petrol.

FG7
It is the state that makes these people criminals by forcing their behaviour to be illegal.
A/C
with good reason as a deterrent to those respond to such deterrents. Of course it have no e/affect to those who think they know better.

FG7
Moreover, certain people have been consuming this drug for a very long time, not that this is in itself necessarily a good thing, but need I remind you that we are talking about a biological plant.

A/C
oleander is also a biological plant and we knew not to touch it, only that caterpillars grow on them but I can never find a caterpillar on one in Sydney to show my boy. People have also been consuming tobacco for a very long time does not mean it should not be barred.


Cheers Fg7
P.S did you know AC that 'poppyseeds', those little black things on rolls, taken in large enough numbers will actually cause you to fail a drug test. Don't laugh its happend to people, you might be stonned now without even realising.

A/C
you may not have thought so but I know exactly where you are coming from and also support that pragmatic position. I think I just see two sides of the coin -- and I could personally kill every drug dealer whether junkie or not - that comes with the Lebo village mentality.

WhiteElephant
28-05-2005, 01:09 PM
How about those ridiculous government-funded ads saying: 'Speed, E's....you don't know what they will do to you'.

What a joke. For one thing they are completely useless because part of the excitement of taking drugs is the unpredictibility of the effect, and the drug's ability to alter 'normal' experiences and perceptions. I have friends who are recreational drug users who say that seeing those ads makes them want to go out and pop a pill or do a line of speed.

Why doesn't the governemnt take the money it spends on those ads and manufacture its own pure speed and e's where the ingredients and price are strictly controlled. It will put the drug dealers out of business, there won't be any need for ads warning about illegal backyard production and most importantly, people will have the right to make an informed choice about whether to take drugs without feeling like criminals.

Instead of drug dealers putting their own symbols on E's (like a Playboy Bunny, a Mitsibishi, etc) we might get a new line of government-manufactured E's - the Kangaroo & Emu or the Johnny.

jenni
28-05-2005, 01:42 PM
On the schizophrenia/marijuana link this is still extremely dodgy. .

Excuse me - it is not dodgy. My niece until the age of 16 was a wonderful, girl, well adjusted, a bit of a leader in various school activities. She got into marijuana with a boyfriend and my sister-in-law went through 6 years of hell with her. It triggered schizophrenia - she used to see eyes coming out of the floor at her and various other things. She was treated for a number of years and was on medication. After rehabilitation she has kept off drugs for 5 years now and no longer takes any medication at all - she was told she was one of the lucky ones not to have kicked off permanent mental problems.

Just recently the daughter of a very good friend has had similar problems. It obviously does not affect all people, just like not all people who drink excessively become alcoholics

jenni
28-05-2005, 01:49 PM
What a silly thing to say Mrs O. While I am not for a moment condoning apartide, it is not an accident that SA has become a basket case since the fall of Botha. The assertion that it is short term pain for long term gain is silly. It is long term pain for a chance of some gain, which means may be no gain at all. :wall:

No it is not silly at all. You had a country where people were treated as animals. Beatings, torture and murder of blacks/Indians/Coloureds (and the other 40 odd categories that SA indulged in), were common. The boycotts did hurt SA's economy (although relative to most of the rest of Africa it is still a good economy), and the blacks are still suffering with huge unemployment rates. However it helped to achieve a non-violent resolution. Incidentally most of the drop in the economy happened pre Botha surrendering power, not afterwards.

jenni
28-05-2005, 02:06 PM
when it comes to legalising drugs - I think it is a case of what is working and what isn't. Like AC I can remember a time when drugs hardly existed - I can also remember when they started becoming more prevalent and all the excited gossip in the school yard about drugs.

40 years later, after goodness knows how many strategies and plans and getting tough on drugs and wars on drugs, it is totally prevalent throughout our society and causes all sorts of peripheral damage in terms of corruption of police, baggage handlers, polititicians, judges and who knows who else. After 40 years surely we should be intelligent enough to admit that current strategies have failed and will continue to fail.

Legalising drug use and taking the profit motive away would immediately free up huge amount of resources that could then be sent on research and education. We have managed to cut tobacco usage in developed countries, why not drug usage with similar tactics. Or are we going to continue to bash our head against a brick wall for another 40 years and pour obscene profits into the pockets of the drug cartels?

jenni
28-05-2005, 02:37 PM
Did anyone notice the size of that bag of weed? It was huge. 4KG they reckon? Boogie boards aren't that large, or particularly heavy. You would think that anyone picking it up would immediately notice the major change in both weight and volume. I'd believed all along that she was "innocent but would be found guilty" ... this morning, before the verdict, I changed my mind and decided "guilty and would be found guilty". Still, none of us were present in the court. Its a bit hard to argue with an official that testifies "She told me she did it" when under oath.

Not sure about this - she has had a longish flight, excited about her holiday, maybe had a few drinks and is talking to her mates. She picks up her baggage and puts it on a baggage trolley - maybe even one of her mates takes it off the carousel and puts it on for her. How much time is she going to spend anaysing the weight? I travel heaps with the kids for chess and I don't think I woudl notice any of our bags being heavier - even the small light one we take to pack swimmers in. We're usually just too glad to be off the plane and focused on making sure we have everything and how to get to the hotel to worry about whether anything is heavier.

Also maybe there was confusion when the people were asking her questions - we're talking different cultures, accents. I know I often have trouble with security people at various destinations, understanding exactly what they want me to do. If she was in shock at the discovery, maybe she said yes it was hers, thinking she was saying yes to something else. I have tried imagining myself in that situation and I would be a basket case - total panic would have taken over. Maybe they are both telling the truth, but justice is falling through the cracks.....

Garvinator
28-05-2005, 02:54 PM
Also maybe there was confusion when the people were asking her questions - we're talking different cultures, accents. I know I often have trouble with security people at various destinations, understanding exactly what they want me to do. If she was in shock at the discovery, maybe she said yes it was hers, thinking she was saying yes to something else. I have tried imagining myself in that situation and I would be a basket case - total panic would have taken over. Maybe they are both telling the truth, but justice is falling through the cracks.....
also probably add to this that Schapelle had been to bali many times before, so she would have been aware what the penalty is for drug trafficking and the customs officials when first questioning her would have reminded her of this fact.

antichrist
28-05-2005, 03:09 PM
[QUOTE=ggrayggray]also probably add to this that Schapelle had been to bali many times before, so she would have been aware what the penalty is for drug trafficking and the customs officials when

Well if she had been to Bali many times that is opposite to either or sister or travel friend was saying the other day -- saying it was first holiday for years and was looking forward to it so would not ...

Garvinator
28-05-2005, 03:15 PM
Well if she had been to Bali many times that is opposite to either or sister or travel friend was saying the other day -- saying it was first holiday for years and was looking forward to it so would not ...
there has been so much mis information regarding this case but i have been following it from day one. A few programs started debunking a few schap myths and this was one. Apparently the bali people had seen her before on the island and further research showed that she has been to the island a few times at least on holidays.

Maybe just more spin, but at this stage I believe it.

jenni
28-05-2005, 04:04 PM
also probably add to this that Schapelle had been to bali many times before, so she would have been aware what the penalty is for drug trafficking and the customs officials when first questioning her would have reminded her of this fact.
Good point - so if she is aware of the penalties, why would she be so laid back about it all and admitting liability. She would have had some story all ready and have thought out what she was going to say if they caught her.

Look - we are never going to know the truth, short of someone coming forward and saying they put it there and that is not going to happen. The best we have is the hearsay evidence, which might be from an attention seeker, or from someone genuinely trying to avert a miscarriage of justice.

As far as the nasty comments about Schapelle's Mum goes - I reckon if Shannon was in Schapelle's situation I would be a harridan as well.

antichrist
28-05-2005, 05:05 PM
[QUOTE=jenni]when it comes to legalising drugs - I think it is a case of what is working and what isn't. Like AC I can remember a time when drugs hardly existed - I can also remember when they started becoming more prevalent and all the excited gossip in the school yard about drugs.

The only gossip when I was a youngster was sex, it was Wendy Howe at the school sports carnival behind the showground pavilion. Wow, what a goer.

Actually I had never even heard the word schrizo before about 1972/3 maybe if that. I can remember in 1975 druggies I met were already going schrizo., I think we used the word psychotic not schrizo.

I lived in a illicit drug-free world, wasn't I lucky. Except for the Beatles of course.

In matric I wrote a short story on an imaginary psycheledic trip and topped the class.

Rincewind
28-05-2005, 07:45 PM
Actually I had never even heard the word schrizo before about 1972/3 maybe if that. I can remember in 1975 druggies I met were already going schrizo., I think we used the word psychotic not schrizo.

I've never heard of schrizo. Can you do a Pauline Hanson?

antichrist
28-05-2005, 11:27 PM
I've never heard of schrizo. Can you do a Pauline Hanson?

It is the schizophrenia you have when they are a bit short in the top paddock.

Kevin Bonham
29-05-2005, 04:48 AM
Excuse me - it is not dodgy. My niece until the age of 16 was a wonderful, girl, well adjusted, a bit of a leader in various school activities. She got into marijuana with a boyfriend and my sister-in-law went through 6 years of hell with her. It triggered schizophrenia - she used to see eyes coming out of the floor at her and various other things. She was treated for a number of years and was on medication. After rehabilitation she has kept off drugs for 5 years now and no longer takes any medication at all - she was told she was one of the lucky ones not to have kicked off permanent mental problems.

Didn't express myself at all well.

What I was referring to as "extremely dodgy" is the idea that marijuana has been proven to cause schizophrenia (eg in a person who would never have otherwise developed the condition).

One alternative is that it can trigger the first appearance of a to-that-point latent condition. The same debate also appears concerning whether marijuana "causes" psychosis or clinical depression, or merely triggers them in some people already prone to them.

antichrist
29-05-2005, 05:08 AM
Let me assure you that up to the mid-sixties there was a only a small fraction of the mental health problems that came after illicit drugs become popular - it was a complete non issue. It was a much more plesant world and safe world. You only had to watch out for the Saturday night drunks.



My mate who went to Nam said the only action he seen was been sprayed with bullets by US guys on the funny stuff. I have read of other incidents of this.

antichrist
29-05-2005, 06:23 AM
FG7
back in the old days before the Fall of FG7 we discussed PNG, well in today's smh it tells of 60 dying tribal in warfare in PNG over a rotten cob of corn being sold and a guy hitting a gal from another tribe -- I told you -- it was you who copped the pasting, now with salt in the wound just like another nail in the cross of Schepple.

At least you were released after a week.

Libby
29-05-2005, 08:04 AM
Let me assure you that up to the mid-sixties there was a only a small fraction of the mental health problems that came after illicit drugs become popular - it was a complete non issue.

Non-issue or non "seen" issue?

After all, it's easy to imagine there is no problem when all the "problems" are institutionalised.

We'd probably be without drug or drinking problems altogether if we just rounded them all up and popped them in a nice locked box where the rest of us didn't have to see them :doh:

antichrist
29-05-2005, 08:45 AM
Non-issue or non "seen" issue?

After all, it's easy to imagine there is no problem when all the "problems" are institutionalised.

We'd probably be without drug or drinking problems altogether if we just rounded them all up and popped them in a nice locked box where the rest of us didn't have to see them :doh:

I am all for alcoholics being institutionised until cured. It is common in Europe. I think we are letting down the alcoholics by leaving them alone. They waste their life away in violence, disease and hopelessness.

A prison-farm-hospital complex would do the trick nicely and hopefully be revenue neutral.

And I believe it is our right not to have to see them. Who wants to look at such denigration. If we want that there is entertainment especialy devised, not at someone else's misfortune. I also believe that it is unfair to nursing staff etc to have to handle these types. My wife was one of them and she absoluted hated having to go near them.

I know a famous singer from China who come over here 25 years ago and asked me why Australia was full of drunks.

That is why in one way I appreciate the Muslims. I was involved in politics and one of the "duties" was to attend their social functions. Everyone was sober and well-behaved, my Chinese table tennis club friends were the same, so actually I got in the habit of avoiding Aussies, it was just more plesant. Sorry but that is life.

arosar
29-05-2005, 09:46 AM
Now there are idiots in this country waving placards with "JUSTICE" and "FREEDOM" written on them. What a bunch of ignoranii. No clue whatsoever. Aussies generally don't have a clue about justice and freedom anyway.

AR

Eric
29-05-2005, 10:04 AM
Now there are idiots in this country waving placards with "JUSTICE" and "FREEDOM" written on them. What a bunch of ignoranii. No clue whatsoever. Aussies generally don't have a clue about justice and freedom anyway.

AR

Yea, and I suppose you do Marcos.

antichrist
29-05-2005, 10:06 AM
AR,

Sorry to disappoint you but I think that is the Aussies strong point.

It shows in just wages (before a...hole Howard wrecks them), proper working conditions, the ultra fair go they give to illegal migrants - some costing up to maybe 500,000 in legal fees due to tribunal system and appeals, the charity status and donations it gives to NGOs.

I have had hassles whilst bargaining and getting custody of goods in Honkers, any bunch of nearby young Aussies would hone in and made sure the right thing was done.

In fact that was why my people came here. They were not at all poor in Leboland. In fact they had very big holdings in Leboland.

If I opened my mouth about religion in Leboland as I do here I would have been killed ages ago.

arosar
29-05-2005, 10:21 AM
Sorry to disappoint you but I think that is the Aussies strong point.

You reckon? Don't think so mate. Just listen and watch all the hysteria over this case. "Justice" they say. "Freedom" they demand. For what??? FMD! No bloody clue.

AR

antichrist
29-05-2005, 10:30 AM
You reckon? Don't think so mate. Just listen and watch all the hysteria over this case. "Justice" they say. "Freedom" they demand. For what??? FMD! No bloody clue.

AR

Amongst the holi polli you will get that but it is the institutions that are important. They have to let out anger at their perceived injustice. Buit they are not in the streets with nooses ready to set upon any Indo.

There have been a number of incidents where housemaids from a certain country had legal troubles (due to sexual harrassment on behalf of their employers) in foreign lands and faced the death penalty etc.. Their countrymen certainly stood up for them as well, also made movies of it just as Rob Baskir is planning. A frustrated dirty old guy in Arabia somewhere received 75 knife wounds and I think she got off.

Hopefully Schapple can manage to get out of there pretty soon. If that loud-mouthed Lebo did not open his mouth she could have been bribed out. If she is forced to stay imprisoned there for very long maybe she can still construct her life by having a long term relationship and children which should be a great terrific distraction. And even take up chess.

We should not upset the Indos too much as they may take away her visiting rights and that would be the worst.

arosar
29-05-2005, 10:43 AM
If that loud-mouthed Lebo did not open his mouth she could have been bribed out. If she is forced to stay imprisoned there for very long maybe she can still construct her life by having a long term relationship and children which should be a great terrific distraction. And even take up chess.

You know your countryman has actually set up a company called Schapelle Corby Pty Ltd or something. What a tricky bastard. Typical lebo.


We should not upset the Indos too much as they may take away her visiting rights and that would be the worst.

Of course we should not upset the Indos. This country should learn to behave correctly and to know its place at the table.

AR

WhiteElephant
29-05-2005, 11:01 AM
Let me assure you that up to the mid-sixties there was a only a small fraction of the mental health problems that came after illicit drugs become popular - it was a complete non issue. It was a much more plesant world and safe world. You only had to watch out for the Saturday night drunks.


If you have ever been to a rave you would know that the atmosphere is one of mutual acceptance, interraction between strangers and generally a feeling of well-being. I believe that the statistics are at least 80% of people at raves are on some form of party drugs with very few people drinking alcohol. Compare this with the atmosphere at a straight night club or in the city on a Saturday night - drunk idiots smashing bottles, abusing people, swearing, sleazing onto girls walking by - ugly stuff.

antichrist
29-05-2005, 03:40 PM
When young I was a well-behaved drunk occasionally. I used to go to Musos club in the seventies and I can't remember any incident there at all.

With more responsibility now on bar management I think those rough days are dying out. When I go to they are definitely gone and this is mainly young people.

I know many chess players who tell me that they were lot better chess players before they touched the funny stuff, and that it has stuffed up their heavy thinking. You appear to be still youngish, let me assure you that the previous generation to yourself who are now fiftyish and who touched the funny stuff they are hopeless at chess. Though they still go through the movements.

And they went through the era when ganga was a lot weaker.

WhiteElephant
29-05-2005, 03:50 PM
I know many chess players who tell me that they were lot better chess players before they touched the funny stuff, and that it has stuffed up their heavy thinking. You appear to be still youngish, let me assure you that the previous generation to yourself who are now fiftyish and who touched the funny stuff they are hopeless at chess. Though they still go through the movements.

And they went through the era when ganga was a lot weaker.

I guess it would depend on the quantity of drugs consumed over time. Some people with an addictive personality seem more susceptible to drug addiction than others and I guess the legislation is there to protect those people rather than those who are able to control their drug consumption.

With regards to chess ability, I just assumed that it declines with age - most GM's these days seem to peak in their early 20s. With regards to my own play, I have noticed that I am not as sharp at blitz as I was as a junior but I now have a more mature and analytical approach to longer games which has improved my overall play.

W.E.

antichrist
29-05-2005, 04:09 PM
What I did not say but have said elsewhere that the real answer is the Islamic boring "clean" tea-totallers.

You can see elderly players like Fred F still playing excellent chess because they had no real vices. IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO GET DRUNK OR GO ON FUNNY STUFF - the bottom line but if have a fertile personality as mine is life is not boring.

Children definitely distract from boredom and give purpose to life.

EGOR
29-05-2005, 04:18 PM
Children definitely distract from boredom and give purpose to life.
Amen :clap: :clap:

Alan Shore
29-05-2005, 11:15 PM
What is interesting is the reactions people are having from a social psychological perspective - I would argue they are rallying behind Schapelle because she is an Australian and there is some doubt as to whether she committed the offence rather than an explicit belief in her innocence; she is in our 'ingroup' and now the Indonesians will be viewed as an 'outgroup' as a reactionary response.

As the Indonesian legal system has some vast differences we think about the sentence as 'unjust' in terms of mapping the offence into the framework of the Australian legal system.

Yet what is logically irrational (yet quite predictable) is some Australians wanting to boycott all things Indo and bringing in completely irrelevant information such as the Bali bombings and distributiuon of foreign aid.

I don't want to comment on her innocence/guilt because I don't know the facts and it would be pointless to take sides on a whim. Instead of the futile whining and boycotting of those innocent Indonesian citizens that rely on trade and tourism, all you can do is further educate people to the dangers of being put in such a dangerous situation and perhaps encourage some changes in legislation with some empirical data. I agree that the Indonesian legal system is somewhat 'unjust' when compared to our own yet I'd want to stop short of invading the country and trying to change their laws simply because we believe we're 'more correct' ala the Iraq war.

antichrist
29-05-2005, 11:24 PM
I think it is as simple as
Third World prices
Third World country ..
third world justice

firegoat7
30-05-2005, 12:35 AM
I think it is as simple as
Third World prices
Third World country ..
third world justice

ears me response

Its easy to say I'm ok
Its easy to define,classify
Whats not so simple
Is to wonder what is why
I classify....
or to whom

If theres a third, there must be a second
A first, best, worst and last
but the one who defines
Is the one who reminds
the others of their own past
as classified by who....

It easy to say Im ok
with a silver spoon or lack of in you mouth
but the divisions inside/outside
both real and in mind
exist as idealistic, stories of life
so whos running the program?

Control is just wrong, Co-ercion a bit part song
theres no rudder caught in the spiders web
for the power is the one that you make
The laws that "they" use
Are the ones 'we' bought to
As we gift them the cake that we baked.

Cheers Fg7

antichrist
30-05-2005, 01:01 AM
could that be described as an eclectic answer

firegoat7
30-05-2005, 01:08 AM
could that be described as an eclectic answer

Ok AC,

Sort of...attempt to alter perception of truth possibly.
I have an :!:
Lets have a short civilised discussion. 1 question each, 20 word or less answers, then counter question that relates to topic. u interested, here goes.

q1) Who is responsible politically, on a world level, for the harshness of Indonesia's drug laws?

Cheers Fg7
P.S can we make the replies snappy Im due for sleep.

antichrist
30-05-2005, 01:22 AM
Ok AC,

Sort of...attempt to alter perception of truth possibly.
I have an
Lets have a short civilised discussion. 1 question each, 20 word or less answers, then counter question that relates to topic. u interested, here goes.

q1) Who is responsible politically, on a world level, for the harshness of Indonesia's drug laws?

Cheers Fg7
P.S can we make the replies snappy Im due for sleep.

FG7 maybe I would love but am now conking out.

Not sure as many Asian countries, including China, have similar. Could be USA but no.

firegoat7
30-05-2005, 01:35 AM
AC,

My understanding is the 1950s, due to U.S.A political pressure on the Indonesian government indirectly linked to Cold War policy and the death of 1 million communists.

Cheers Fg7

q2) Does the first world support the policies of the third world?

Cheers Fg7
P.S where was your question?

antichrist
30-05-2005, 01:41 AM
AC,

My understanding is the 1950s, due to U.S.A political pressure on the Indonesian government indirectly linked to Cold War policy and the death of 1 million communists.

Cheers Fg7

q2) Does the first world support the policies of the third world?
no uses world bank and imf to subvert third world, trade agreements and subsidies all act against third world

Cheers Fg7
P.S where was your question?

why is love blind and irrational

firegoat7
30-05-2005, 01:46 AM
why is love blind and irrational

Hehe, good question, very poignant.
Because the human condition is such that feelings come before thought.

Cheers Fg7

Ok,
Why do Australians love SC?

firegoat7
30-05-2005, 01:50 AM
q2) Does the first world support the policies of the third world?
no uses world bank and imf to subvert third world, trade agreements and subsidies all act against third world

Correct! and importantly In doing so... create a position of power in which to abstract the exotic 'other' as the third world.

Cheers Fg7

antichrist
30-05-2005, 01:51 AM
Hehe, good question, very poignant.
Because the human condition is such that feeling come before thought.

Cheers Fg7

Ok,
Why do Australians love SC?

everyone's sister, lover, fun-loving Aussie, daughter, spunky, and possibly innocent and mistrust of browns and third world

antichrist
30-05-2005, 01:53 AM
Why is "love is all your need" true and false

antichrist
30-05-2005, 01:58 AM
good night dozzzing at the wheel

Eric
30-05-2005, 08:02 AM
[QUOTE=jenni]Actually I had never even heard the word schrizo before about 1972/3 maybe if that. .

It was obviously at that time the shrinks finally gave you your appropriate psych assessment.

antichrist
30-05-2005, 10:02 AM
Hello Eric-Bill
at it again, you can fool some of the people, some of the time...

Eric
30-05-2005, 10:17 AM
Hello Eric-Bill
at it again, you can fool some of the people, some of the time...

Unfortuately , unlike Lincoln, :lol: you're a fool all the time.

antichrist
30-05-2005, 10:20 AM
Unfortuately , unlike Lincoln, :lol: you're a fool all the time.



Exactly what I would expect from you Bill. You really can't control yourself can you.

Eric
30-05-2005, 10:23 AM
Exactly what I would expect from you Bill. You really can't control yourself can you.

Is this the best you can do? Yes everyone is Bill. We all know you're bonkers! :lol:

EGOR
30-05-2005, 10:27 AM
This really is very boring! :sleeping:

firegoat7
30-05-2005, 10:42 AM
Hello everyone,

Who is the Eric personia?

ACs trolling alter ego?
Bills trolling alter ego?
PaulS's trolling alter ego?

hmmmmm, lets get the analysis team onto it. JGB where are you?

Cheers Fg7

antichrist
30-05-2005, 11:08 AM
regret returning to topic.

It was simple Third World justice that Schapple received.

Imagine if she would got off, you could almost blame the JC for hiding it there and getting off. It would have become a farce.

Murderers have often blamed the God for telling them to kill someone.

He has bad PR that guy.

Eric
30-05-2005, 03:30 PM
Hello everyone,

Who is the Eric personia?

ACs trolling alter ego?
Bills trolling alter ego?
PaulS's trolling alter ego?

hmmmmm, lets get the analysis team onto it. JGB where are you?

Cheers Fg7

You're nothing but a defective Mat Sweeney clone.

Bill Gletsos
30-05-2005, 03:54 PM
Hello everyone,

Who is the Eric personia?

ACs trolling alter ego?
Bills trolling alter ego?
PaulS's trolling alter ego?

hmmmmm, lets get the analysis team onto it. JGB where are you?

Cheers Fg7I dont know who Eric is but believe he obviously has attended NSWJCL meetings.
I only post here under this id.
I do not and have not posted on UCJ under any id.

Eric
30-05-2005, 04:01 PM
I dont know who Eric is but believe he obviously has attended NSWJCL meetings.
I only post here under this id.
I do not and have not posted on UCJ under any id.

I do not attend JCL meetings, but heard from a reliable source that Antichrist did sleep through one entire meeting.

Bill Gletsos
30-05-2005, 04:05 PM
I do not attend JCL meetings, but heard from a reliable source that Antichrist did sleep through one entire meeting.Well that kills the theory that you were on the NSWJCL Council. :doh:

Eric
30-05-2005, 04:12 PM
Well that kills the theory that you were on the NSWJCL Council. :doh:

My son used to play junior chess.

Duff McKagan
30-05-2005, 07:08 PM
My son used to play junior chess.

That would make your son that poster from way back named "chesslover".
:lol:
Sorry, I couldnt resist throwing in that blast from the past. :D


Cheers

arosar
30-05-2005, 07:24 PM
Hey Peter. You there mate? Listen, I was reading the Tele today, again about this whole Corby saga and guess what I saw on page 17?

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1260&storyid=3202102

AR

Alan Shore
30-05-2005, 09:07 PM
But the real question - is it the same Peter Hanna?

antichrist
30-05-2005, 09:24 PM
My name is bad enough here without exposing that as well. Thanks a million.

Bill Gletsos
30-05-2005, 09:32 PM
My name is bad enough here without exposing that as well. Thanks a million.Hell, if we knew you were a builder, you could have built the NSWCA a Chess Centre. :owned:

antichrist
30-05-2005, 10:08 PM
There are quite a few brilliant ones in my family before me (I am the Greeenbottle) who all became lawyers etc, and my mother wanted someone practical and sensible so she got me to do building.

Duff McKagan
31-05-2005, 06:58 AM
... and guess what I saw on page 17?


:naughty: AR
:thumdown: for dobbing

antichrist
31-05-2005, 07:14 AM
Hell, if we knew you were a builder, you could have built the NSWCA a Chess Centre. :owned:

Contrarily, I would say you are lucky you stayed right away from me

Spiny Norman
31-05-2005, 08:07 AM
My name is bad enough here without exposing that as well. Thanks a million.

Don't worry AC, I tried to launch an I.T. business a few years ago. We aimed for the stars, but the result was a bit like that TV ad where the bloke leaps out of the plane (which is still on the ground) and ends up with a face full of dirt. There's still a few people about who probably wouldn't give me the time of day as a result.

antichrist
17-06-2005, 06:37 PM
In today's paper there is a story of a super rich Indo dude who shot a waiter in the head because the waiter had come back reporting that the dude's chick's credit card was rejected.

He got seven years - he had made a payment to the waiter's family.

Schepple certainly got her priorities wrong. Blood is lighter than grass.

antichrist
26-06-2005, 10:01 AM
The Corby family is our new royal family, love'em or hate'em, better lookers and can make good fish and chips.

But when Ron allegedly touched her leg allegedly saying something like "you have plenty of years to pay it back after you are free" - did he mean via money?

arosar
26-06-2005, 11:58 AM
But when Ron allegedly touched her leg allegedly saying something like "you have plenty of years to pay it back after you are free" - did he mean via money?

Nah mate. Like a typical lebo he prolly meant a good root in the back of a WRX.

AR

antichrist
26-06-2005, 06:01 PM
Nah mate. Like a typical lebo he prolly meant a good root in the back of a WRX.

AR

Can't dispute that, only trouble is it will be a long time coming.

antichrist
07-09-2005, 07:24 PM
FG7, the terrible announcer on ABC news tonight referred to Fuzzy Wuzzy Angels???????????????? how dare she!

bergil
08-09-2005, 04:06 AM
FG7, the terrible announcer on ABC news tonight referred to Fuzzy Wuzzy Angels???????????????? how dare she!
Regardless of this being a wind up, its a term of affection given to the natives of New Guinea, by the diggers in the war because of their hair and the help they gave on the Kokoda track.

To quote Chester Wilmot, ABC radio war correspondent in New Guinea.
"When this war is over we should raise a memorial in every Australian capital to the New Guinea natives so that we may never forget how much of the white man's burden was carried by the natives in this roadless jungle warfare. That we may remember how many Australians owe their lives to the natives who bore the wounded in their stretcthers across the tortuous trail to safety." :clap: :clap: :clap:

antichrist
08-09-2005, 06:22 AM
Sorry Bergil-come-lately but my post was a stir at FG7 who in this thread (?) ages ago got up me for referring to them as FWA. You may be in his sights for a blast as well so brace yourself and ready to duck.

bergil
08-09-2005, 06:32 AM
Sorry Bergil-come-lately but my post was a stir at FG7 who in this thread (?) ages ago got up me for referring to them as FWA. You may be in his sights for a blast as well so brace yourself and ready to duck.
Nah that wont happen because I'm the voice of common sense and reason :P

antichrist
08-09-2005, 09:12 AM
Fuzzy Wuzzie Angels was even used in a SMH caption today.

Spiny Norman
08-09-2005, 10:42 AM
Fuzzy Wuzzie Angels was even used in a SMH caption today.
They ARE fuzzy ... and wuzzy ... AND Angels too! :cool:

antichrist
08-09-2005, 06:16 PM
I have got to squeeze this in somewhere, Michelle Lee is half Pinoy and is being personally assisted by another Lebo- gee Lebos are nice people but they should choose their friends better.

bergil
08-09-2005, 06:22 PM
I have got to squeeze this in somewhere, Michelle Lee is half Pinoy and is being personally assisted by another Lebo- gee Lebos are nice people but they should choose their friends better.
Then squeeze it where the sun doesn't shine :P

antichrist
08-09-2005, 06:27 PM
Then squeeze it where the sun doesn't shine :P

Now if I told that to a someone else I may be barred. There is no justice in this world. I had mentioned sweet chilli sauce but I remembered those warnings

bergil
08-09-2005, 06:33 PM
Now if I told that to a someone else I may be barred. There is no justice in this world. I had mentioned sweet chilli sauce but I remembered those warnings
:eh: :rolleyes:

bergil
08-09-2005, 06:47 PM
Then squeeze it where the sun doesn't shine :P
A/C you should do a poll on that! :owned:

Garvinator
19-01-2006, 01:05 PM
20 years - poor kid. I am boycotting all Indonesian goods from now on (Pity their Cocunut cream is much nicer than the Thai version. :( )
Hello Jenni,

How is the boycott going? Also, I see Schapelle's younger brother is being charged with drug possession and drug trafficking on the Gold Coast.

All I have to say is : hmm : (wish I had emoticons here)

PHAT
22-01-2006, 10:52 PM
Corby Family = Scum

Can we deport them to Tasmania to do time with Martin Bryant?

qpawn
24-01-2006, 08:23 PM
I have been involved in a Schapelle Corby support group for a few months. It is a bona fide group that only acts with the approval of Schapelle's family; Geoff, who runs the group, has regular contact with Rose and others.

To stop trolls we don't give out the details of our website easily. Anyone who wants such details should give me a private message.

Some people on this site have shown a significant amount of ignorance about the case; if you want the facts rather than the myths then PM me and you will get Geoff's email and newsletters. We have produced flyers about the case, some of us have gone on radio in support of SCHapelle, and we have taken an interest, and donated money towards, the improvement of water wells in Kerobokan.

I have no doubt about her innocence after hearing the facts. She needs 0ur support, care packages, postages etc; not condemnation such as the 3 lunatics who voted in the poll for her to be executed.

PHAT
24-01-2006, 11:16 PM
I have no doubt about her innocence after hearing the facts. She needs 0ur support, care packages, postages etc; not condemnation such as the 3 lunatics who voted in the poll for her to be executed.


She should be executed regardless of her innocence or otherwise of being some bastard's pack animal. Excecution would be fully justifiable on the following three grounds alone.
1. She is a bootishun.
2. She chose Bali for a holiday.
3. She probably used to drink Vanilla Coke.

qpawn
25-01-2006, 07:09 AM
I agree that Schapelle is pretty irritating. I don't find her pretty or sexy at all. To me she looks like a pig with her nasal shape and face.

But I don't think that I would look very pretty after a 20 year sentence either. :confused:

McTaggart
25-01-2006, 08:32 AM
I can't see why people who vote for Corby's execution are lunatics. All drug smugglers should be shot with in one hour of being caught. Put that law in place and you will see a dramatic decline in trafficing. Why does a family of criminals such as the Corbys deserve our money and support? I mean,get real! these people exist at the bottom end of society and make a squalid living from the weakness of others. The Indonesian/Malay/Singaporean authorities recognize this and want to stop or hinder the spread of drugs into their countries,can anyone have an objection to that? And if you are worried about someone putting drugs into your baggage,just don't go there. simple really....Incidently,a persons beauty is not necessarily reflected by their outward appearance......

eclectic
25-01-2006, 08:50 AM
I can't see why people who vote for Corby's execution are lunatics. All drug smugglers should be shot with in one hour of being caught. Put that law in place and you will see a dramatic decline in trafficing. Why does a family of criminals such as the Corbys deserve our money and support? I mean,get real! these people exist at the bottom end of society and make a squalid living from the weakness of others. The Indonesian/Malay/Singaporean authorities recognize this and want to stop or hinder the spread of drugs into their countries,can anyone have an objection to that? And if you are worried about someone putting drugs into your baggage,just don't go there. simple really....Incidently,a persons beauty is not necessarily reflected by their outward appearance......

if hanging drug smugglers was really a deterrent then they would be telecasting the executions live and then continually running replays of them on the information screens at changi airport wouldn't they now?

Rincewind
25-01-2006, 09:08 AM
The problem with most countries is that drug addiction is a health issue. However, it is being managed almost entirely as a law enforcement issue. Perhaps we should adopt the same approach with tuberculosis.

I think drug trafficking is crime. However, why is there a market and why is it so profitable? Who are the laws there to protect? The drug addicts or the profits of multinational pharmaceutical corporations?

PHAT
25-01-2006, 09:09 AM
Incidently,a persons beauty is not necessarily reflected by their outward appearance......

Only ugly people say that.

But seriously, we all know that beauty is only skin deep ...... and ugly goes all the way through.

McTaggart
25-01-2006, 05:56 PM
No,it would not be necessary to have continual re-plays of hangings/fireing squads etc,in fact, don't say anything other than just putting a notice that drug smuggling is punishible by death.I mean,how many times can you tell people,why is it necessary to repeat the message? No just quietly shoot the smugglers,no fanfare,no publicity and above all,don't tell anybody (I mean the rellos) I bet Mama Rosleigh Rose would have quickly twigged if Schapelle had not returned from her drug run....Look,it won't stop drug running. We all know that inappropiate speeding/driving causes accidents and road deaths but do we alter our behaviour,not really. We always think we will be the ones that not cause an accident or get caught etc. What should happen will be a reduction in the traffic of drugs flowing between countries but not a cessation..

qpawn
25-01-2006, 07:13 PM
Mactaggart, rather than blasting your facile arguments with a bazooka I will make your task of clear thinking easier.

Your argument, as I understand it, is that capital punishment is a deterrent. Then, let's take a country like the US where some states have capital punishment and some do not.

Your task, to convince me that capital punishment can ever deter people from crime, is quite simple: produce a study of crime rates in a state with capital punishment and show that since its introduction crime has not only been reduced, but also done so to a greater extent than states with no death penalty. You will also have to eliminate other possible causes of such a reduced crime rate - better policing, more reported crimes, ethnic gangs moving elsewhere etc.

Good luck. No criminologist on the planet has managed to succeed at the above task.

And if you can not suceed at the above then I am entitled to say that any state that takes the life of a person is exercising the most blind, pointless barbarism of which warped legal systems are capable.

PHAT
25-01-2006, 09:39 PM
...any state that takes the life of a person is exercising the most blind, pointless barbarism of which warped legal systems are capable.

Barbaric? Yes.
Blind? Maybe.
Pointless? No.
Warped legal system? It is full of lawyers - of cousre it is warped.

Capital punishment is for revenge. I read somewhere that about a third of people feel better in the long term, when the killer of their loved one is fried, about a third ambivolent, and a third remorseful.

How we treat our criminals, retards and infirm, says more about us than them.

McTaggart
25-01-2006, 10:59 PM
Sorry qpawn old chap,I was not arguing that capital punishment does any good,ie,abolish drug running,rape etc,I know that it does not,I said that it might reduce it and the point that you missed was that by executing the Corbys of this world just means that there are a fewer of them in existence. Do you have any personal experience of what effect that drugs have on a family or individual? And an answer like " I have'nt but I can imagine what it would be like" does not really cut it.... Sure the individual druggo has to accept their responsibility but the low-life that caused so much damaged and mayhem to the fabric of society by supplying the poison simply do not care. The Corbys were exporting for profit. The fearless M Sweeny has summed it up beautifully. The only question to decide is who carries the most guilt in the Corby menage,the father, a convicted criminal? the mother,the mastermind, or the half-wit half brother also convicted,or Mercedes and husband,running a nice little earner out of the surf shop? Come on man, get real!

Axiom
26-01-2006, 12:16 AM
i trust mctaggart also supports the crminalisation of tobacco and alcohol, as they both do far more damage than all the other drugs combined! ....mctaggart you also need to study up on the actual clinical physiological effects of each drug, and realise that most problems with drug use, are caused simply by its illegality!

Axiom
26-01-2006, 12:20 AM
i also refer mctagg to prohibitionusa 1920s, CIA drug running, and since usa in afghanistan,heroin flows freely in europe!..............ppl like mctagg are all too happy for the pawns to be burned, but forgets to hit the kings!

PHAT
26-01-2006, 01:27 AM
realise that most problems with drug use, are caused simply by its illegality!

Pot is worse for your mental and physical health, than the combined effects of tobacco and alcohol. Furthermore, pot is bearly illegal since it attracts only a fine for possession. Therefore, I put it to you that for the ubiquitous weed, the nature of drug it self is sufficient to warrent keeping it illegal.

Kevin Bonham
26-01-2006, 01:51 AM
Pot is worse for your mental and physical health, than the combined effects of tobacco and alcohol.

The debate about the mental impacts of pot is actually very complex.


Therefore, I put it to you that for the ubiquitous weed, the nature of drug it self is sufficient to warrent keeping it illegal.

Playing football can cause serious injuries. Should football be banned?