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Brian_Jones
18-03-2005, 07:54 AM
Good work Andrew. But it would be better if you South Australians finished off your committments from Mt Buller before starting new projects!

adelandre
19-03-2005, 12:47 AM
Dear Brian,

Unlike the Adelaide Championships, George bore the responsibility for the Mt Buller champsionships. The follow up work on Mt Buller - he simply isn't doing - I don't know why. I made it easy for him by preparing the CD about 2 months ago with all bulletins for the open.

George is basically not involved with the SACA committee this year, he has nothing to do with the changes we are implementing (he may help out with Glenelg at the end of the year). Therefore, he is not doing any work on these initiatives that would otherwise halt him finishing Mt Buller stuff.

I am getting on with my role as SACA President, and wish not to be implicated further in any follow up issues with Mt Buller. It is certainly not a case of "South Australians" finishing off "their" Mt Buller Champsionships.

I have finished my committments to Mt Buller - I made it clear to George that I could help him up there and before but not afterwards. I cannot stress this highly enough. I was paid a much lesser fee than other organisers and arbiters because of this.

Therefore, I hope people can see that myself and the committee ( our fantastic new Treasurer Andrew McKechnie, the tireless Alan Goldsmith, Bill Anderson - Smith, Peter Hughes, Richard Thorne, Alex Saint, Michael Peake and Tristrom Cooke) are trying to improve SACA, and that we are in no way connected to the Mt Buller chess events.

Kind Regards
Andrew

Brian_Jones
19-03-2005, 08:56 AM
Thank you for posting this statement which clears up a number of issues.
I had always thought you were all part of George's support team (Adelaide and Mt Buller). I now realise that you were not. So my apologies to SACA - it is no longer a South Australian issue.

But the bad smell remains. How is the chess community going to get George to fulfil his obligations? What about the people who paid good money for the CDs? Are there any other loose ends?

Maybe this and previous two posts needs to be posted to another thread?

adelandre
19-03-2005, 12:14 PM
As I have said in an email to Brian, I try to ring George and get him to fulfill these obligations each week, but he replies with some comment such as "stuff them all".

Perhaps it would be worth me making these statements:

- SACA is in no way connected to the Mt Buller Championships, and neither are "South Australians"
- George is effectively not a part of SACA anymore, he does not turn up to meetings, but has agreed to put in some teams from his Norwood club into our club competition, and help to organise Glenelg at the end of the year.
- Myself and Alex, like the Arbiters Roly Eime, Charles Z, Lee Forace and Shaun Press were helping out at Mt Buller - we were helping George and Garvin to run the Mt Buller Open, and some of us the Junior as well.
- I cannot stress highly enough, that just as everyone has an understanding that the arbiters have no responsibility for the lack of follow up from Mt Buller, neither do Alex or I. We produced the final bulletin CDs as asked and gave them to George, who has all the address lists. He also has all the money.
- George and "the South Australians" including Alex and I are not part of some chess team - we helped Goerge at Mt Buller, he helped us at the Adelaide Champsionships with publicity.
- Goerge does not run any SACA events, except he helps with Glenelg, and has nothing to do with teh University Open.
- This was George's Mt Buller as he was financially responsible and did the overall organising - with a lot of help from Garvin who has done his best in a sea of disorganisation
- At the last Adelaide Championships, George was head of the committee and did some publicity, but I was the Cheif organiser with help from Alex and Robin and did ALL the organising and monetary work - hence the two events are different.
- Also at the Junior Champs in Adelaide in 2003, Goerge was head of the committee but a group of three enthusiastic mothers including Julie Obst did ALL the orgainsing and money work. Robin Wedding did the bulletins with help from Alex and I.
- Therefore, like all of you I am bewildered by this lack of follow up. I have tried call him and encourage him to follow up. The rest of you are welcome to as well.

adelandre
19-03-2005, 12:27 PM
Could we please leave this thread to discussing the SACA scholarship rather than Mt Buller issues which have nothing to do with one another. It is completely incorrect and a shame to taint the excellent SACA committee with these problems.

Thanks
Andrew

firegoat7
19-03-2005, 03:40 PM
Dear Andrew,

Shame him, publish George Howards negative emails.

Cheers Fg7

Libby
19-03-2005, 04:09 PM
As I have said in an email to Brian, I try to ring George and get him to fulfill these obligations each week, but he replies with some comment such as "stuff them all".

What George seems to consistently fail to acknowledge is that he is not "stuffing" -

people who annoy him on the BB; or

people who annoyed him in Mt Buller;

He is stuffing up perfectly reasonable people, "innocent" of any of the above transgressions. People who went to a "professionally" run event and paid for a service. I understand many paid up front and it is DISGRACEFUL that they are still waiting for something that was paid for/ordered quite apart from the original event & budget.

Chess just looks incompetent again. And whatever the rights and wrongs of George's feelings/efforts with regard to Mt Buller, not fulfilling this service is just unprofessional - no excuses.

Denis_Jessop
19-03-2005, 05:26 PM
I should just like to support Andrew's remarks regarding responsibility for the running of "Mt Buller" by way of clarification.

When the event was first being organised by David Cordover, it had been awarded by the ACF to CV on the understanding that DC would run it for CV.

When that bid fell over, the ACF awarded the event direct to George on a bid prepared by him, not to SACA, and George selected his own organising committee, subsequently forming an association incorporated in SA under the name Mt Buller Chess Inc. to handle it.

Thus SACA has nothing official to do with the running of the Mt Buller events otherwise than through its representation on the ACF Council along with the other States, the ACT and the Executive .

DJ
ACF President

adelandre
19-03-2005, 09:45 PM
Dear all,

If any of you would like to contact George and canvas to have these things done that would be great - I have tried.

Unfortunately firegoat, I havn't had any email conversation with him on the issue as he virtually doesn't use it - only phone conversations. If you give him an email relating to this he will most likely not read it and delete it. I remember him saying that after about August last year he deleted most of Libby's emails without reading them which was a shame.

I cannot see how he will produce a report on the event by the next council meeting.

Lets just be thankful Libby that there are many good organisers out there, including many in Canberra, that are helping to project the friendly, well organised and more professional side of chess.

Kind Regards
Andrew

Garvinator
19-03-2005, 10:46 PM
Unfortunately firegoat, I havn't had any email conversation with him on the issue as he virtually doesn't use it - only phone conversations. If you give him an email relating to this he will most likely not read it and delete it. I remember him saying that after about August last year he deleted most of Libby's emails without reading them which was a shame.
I can almost guarantee that George will not answer any emails from anyone related to chess. I clearly remember George saying to me on at least a half dozen occasions at mt buller, that he couldnt wait till buller was over and he could delete most of his emails and block alot of addresses.
Dont ask me to email him, I suspect I would be one of the ones blocked now.


I cannot see how he will produce a report on the event by the next council meeting.
I will be most interested in any report he produces and will be wanting a copy of it as I was on the organising team.

jenni
19-03-2005, 11:15 PM
Ok - this would be why I am not getting any reply about the clock that was lost. I was asked in early January to provide sets and digital clocks for the juniors, as they worried about not having enough given the exceptionally large number of junior entries.

Th only equipment I could get access to at that time of year was Belconnen Chess Club's and I raided their equipment and organised to get it transported to Mt Buller (all for free, no rental cost or anything). ACT people were put to a great deal of inconvenience to get the equipment back the day they left and it was returned one clock short. George offered to send us his own clock as a replacement, after I got cranky about it, but all I want is the depreciated value of the clock. I have to admit I am more than a little annoyed about the loss and the way it has been handled and it will be a long time before I will recommend lending any of our equipment out of town.

Thunderspirit
19-03-2005, 11:52 PM
Andrew copped a lot garbage for his role in Mt Buller. We didn't always agree or see "Eye to Eye" but to be fair he worked hard, and this follow up stuff isn't his fault.

Cheers for doin' what you did... :clap: :clap:

Libby
20-03-2005, 07:49 AM
I remember him saying that after about August last year he deleted most of Libby's emails without reading them which was a shame.

Kind Regards
Andrew

Well - gosh, maybe that is why so much went on the BB. Something about not being able to get answers by email?

It made me wonder if I'd turned into something of a "spammer" over the course of the event but I can only come up with 12 emails directed to George between July & January. Although I did copy him on emails to people who were interested in the Social Committee I attempted to get going. For some peculiar reason i thought it was appropriate to let him know what we were doing? :doh:

And in August? Must have been because I'd sent him this sort of unreasonable and petty email on 28/7


Hi George

Can I second Ian's words. I think you have misread or misunderstood my
position in this debate (and others).

No, I don't like Mt Buller much as a venue. Yes, I would prefer to be going
to Melbourne and to have the Schools event in Canberra (at a school).
However I am representing a group of junior players in the ACT, and their
committee, and our players are coming to Mt Buller. I have a lot of
questions because I want to make sure the maximum number of ACT players
compete, that they get the best possible arrangements for accommodation,
food, travel and amenities and they enjoy a successful event. It is not my
hope that the event is a flop. It is not my hope that ACT players will
boycott in droves. It is not remotely my suspicion that you are off to
Majorca with the proceeds.

Some of my problems have arisen because we have been ahead of ourselves in
qualifying teams for the ASCC and in making accommodation and other
arrangements for the Aus Junior. That means I have been subject to constant
questions as the events have changed in recent months and I am trying to
provide the best quality, most detailed and accurate info I can to our
players. We share a similar responsibility in that respect.

I wish the organising committee well and I will be at both the Aus Junior
and Aus Schools with my daughter and will be happy to help out if I can. I
have some reservations about the long-term Accor deal but these come from
ignorance of the detail. I would (personally) like to see the ACF hold off
from voting on the future sponsorship until both the Aus Champs & Aus Junior
have been run in January. Primarily to allow all parties to reflect on the
success of both events before tying us to an arrangement to return to Mt
Buller each second year. I see that of benefit to both sides of the debate.
It is not helpful to vote in favour of that proposal (before the event) if
the Juniors does not go well and players are unhappy at the prospect of
playing there again. It also does not make sense to vote against the
proposal on the expectation it will not go well, if in fact the event is the
huge success the organisers have worked towards.

My apologies if I have made life difficult. I understand the thankless
nature of what you are doing. The Bulletin Board is best not perused (or
posted on) in times of stress! Thank you for your efforts and for the
information you have provided to date. I'll continue in my efforts to get
our players to the events.

Libby

Ian Rout
20-03-2005, 10:29 AM
When that bid fell over, the ACF awarded the event direct to George on a bid prepared by him, not to SACA, and George selected his own organising committee, subsequently forming an association incorporated in SA under the name Mt Buller Chess Inc. to handle it.

Thus SACA has nothing official to do with the running of the Mt Buller events otherwise than through its representation on the ACF Council along with the other States, the ACT and the Executive .


Of course it's true that the event was never awarded to SACA but what is the legal position of the ACF - is it in any sense the organising body or does the passing of the event to MBC Inc get it legally off the hook?

Is there any risk that a disgruntled creditor may haul the ACF into the bankruptcy courts over the non-delivery of their disc? Probably not worth while over something so petty of itself, but somebody with some other axe to grind, or with access to cheap legal advice, may well see an opportunity, if only to exert pressure.

In any event maybe the ACF should look at being a bit pro-active in chasing things up on behalf of the players as ACF certainly looks bad by proxy. It looks like the Saints are carrying all the load but aren't in any position to do much.

Don_Harrison
20-03-2005, 10:44 AM
Chess just looks incompetent again. And whatever the rights and wrongs of George's feelings/efforts with regard to Mt Buller, not fulfilling this service is just unprofessional - no excuses.

You are correct in one aspect in that is just unprofessional.

I am always at a loss why most people equate payment for a service with professional conduct. The two do not necessarily go together as evidenced in this case. We all have seen organisations, such as, P&C Committees, Clubs, Tuck Shops, run on a very professional basis entirely by volunteers. I my view professional really means displaying competance, willingness to deliver good service, conducting the activities in an open and honest manner, and, doing what you agreed to do. Seems that some or none of these criteria have been met by a certain individual.

But chess players appear to be trusting souls at times. And like other bodies there are too few prepared to role up their sleves and get in to assist. And some are quite happy to sit back and snipe from the sidelines. Mind you, I can also think of some individuals who I wouldn't want to be involved in any organisational aspects as they are dithering idiots.

That dichotomy between those who make, or wish to make, money from chess and the mutual club atmosphere which spans juniors to adults may be part of the problem. Until that is resolved for better or for worse (and I doubt that it will be), chess will continue to look incompetent and fragmented. The saving grace it that it will look incompetent only to its participants. The editor of the SunHerald could not give a toss so I doubt that it will be headline news around the nation.

As for not supplying certain goods for which payment has been made, I am sure a number of people are aware that there are fair trading laws. Amazing to whom the laws apply. Have used to good effect sometimes.

Denis_Jessop
20-03-2005, 05:15 PM
Of course it's true that the event was never awarded to SACA but what is the legal position of the ACF - is it in any sense the organising body or does the passing of the event to MBC Inc get it legally off the hook?

Is there any risk that a disgruntled creditor may haul the ACF into the bankruptcy courts over the non-delivery of their disc? Probably not worth while over something so petty of itself, but somebody with some other axe to grind, or with access to cheap legal advice, may well see an opportunity, if only to exert pressure.

In any event maybe the ACF should look at being a bit pro-active in chasing things up on behalf of the players as ACF certainly looks bad by proxy. It looks like the Saints are carrying all the load but aren't in any position to do much.

This raises several issues.

First, I believe that the ACF's legal position is the same whether it awards an event to a State Association or to another body direct.

Secondly, the question of possible ACF liability was raised in Council when the bid was approved and I thought it was generally known that George gave the ACF a guarantee that it would not suffer loss as a result - perhaps this was not generally known as Ian usually knows everything that needs to be known ;) .

Thirdly, though this is a technical point, the ACF would not be taken to the bankruptcy court on the CD matter as that court has no jurisdiction in the matter. It is an interesting question what court would have jurisdiction and whether a person would be well advised to sue the ACF, rather than someone else, over the matter, given the facts.

I have had some contact with George about the Mt Buller events since they finished (unlike others so it would seem). I shall try to find out what is happening about the CDs. After all, I paid for one of them too!

DJ

Ian Rout
20-03-2005, 06:15 PM
Thanks for the explanation Denis. I was aware of the deal that ACF would not suffer loss but I wasn't sure what the definition of "loss" was exactly, or perhaps more to the point how this clause was to be invoked in practice.

I asked about bankruptcy because I thought a scenario might be that somebody would demand their money back then if it was not forthcoming could seek to have ACF liquidated to get it. I suppose it is a small mercy that this is not one mess that we might get into.

As far as how to get some response other than the one that the Saints recount getting, I recall Andrew Denton had an approach that might be applicable. Another option might be to have everybody cancel their orders and ACF supply the content, which presumably still exists, electronically.

Libby
20-03-2005, 06:28 PM
Another option might be to have everybody cancel their orders and ACF supply the content, which presumably still exists, electronically.

I don't imagine you'd have too much trouble getting people to cancel their orders. Extracting their refunds might be more problematic.

I can accept the shaky sands of responsibility here but I did express, and still feel, that the ACF shows little concern for the way the events are run on their behalf.

The CDs may not be a massive issue of themselves, just a few hundred dollars of pre-paid chessplayer's money is involved, but we (the royal "we" being the ACF) should care when things are half delivered.

If there are technical issues, or hold-ups with suppliers etc then OK, we can all understand that. But when someone is running a line that "they can all get stuffed" when they have received specific monies for a specific purpose (not part of any original tournament budget) that is irresponsible and inappropriate.

If this is correct, it does reflect poorly on the ACF and we should care about that. It doesn't matter who signed over what to whom - George was ACF President and is still a Vice-President? If he doesn't want to finish this off maybe he could hand over the list of orders, master disc and money to someone who will.

Don_Harrison
20-03-2005, 06:28 PM
As far as how to get some response other than the one that the Saints recount getting, I recall Andrew Denton had an approach that might be applicable. Another option might be to have everybody cancel their orders and ACF supply the content, which presumably still exists, electronically.

1. Commendable but I understand abduction of persons and/or holding them for ransom is illegal in Australia - a backward country sometimes, it works in other juristictions.

2. In effect it really means that the offender keeps your money and the ACF was/is not the offender. In which case refer to Option 1 above.

Trent Parker
20-03-2005, 07:27 PM
As I have said in an email to Brian, I try to ring George and get him to fulfill these obligations each week, but he replies with some comment such as "stuff them all".

Perhaps it would be worth me making these statements:

- SACA is in no way connected to the Mt Buller Championships, and neither are "South Australians"
- George is effectively not a part of SACA anymore, he does not turn up to meetings, but has agreed to put in some teams from his Norwood club into our club competition, and help to organise Glenelg at the end of the year.
- Myself and Alex, like the Arbiters Roly Eime, Charles Z, Lee Forace and Shaun Press were helping out at Mt Buller - we were helping George and Garvin to run the Mt Buller Open, and some of us the Junior as well.
- I cannot stress highly enough, that just as everyone has an understanding that the arbiters have no responsibility for the lack of follow up from Mt Buller, neither do Alex or I. We produced the final bulletin CDs as asked and gave them to George, who has all the address lists. He also has all the money.
- George and "the South Australians" including Alex and I are not part of some chess team - we helped Goerge at Mt Buller, he helped us at the Adelaide Champsionships with publicity.
- Goerge does not run any SACA events, except he helps with Glenelg, and has nothing to do with teh University Open.
- This was George's Mt Buller as he was financially responsible and did the overall organising - with a lot of help from Garvin who has done his best in a sea of disorganisation
- At the last Adelaide Championships, George was head of the committee and did some publicity, but I was the Cheif organiser with help from Alex and Robin and did ALL the organising and monetary work - hence the two events are different.
- Also at the Junior Champs in Adelaide in 2003, Goerge was head of the committee but a group of three enthusiastic mothers including Julie Obst did ALL the orgainsing and money work. Robin Wedding did the bulletins with help from Alex and I.
- Therefore, like all of you I am bewildered by this lack of follow up. I have tried call him and encourage him to follow up. The rest of you are welcome to as well.

When I first asked the question about the buller-tins i received the following response.


Hi Trent,

All buller-tins for the open have been completed. As you may well have been aware, hardware, software problems with my laptop and a sudden change in funding for the bulletins (resulting in a search for an alternative means of reproducing hardcopies) resulted in us being 1 day behind until the rest day. On the final day, the photocopier at mercure run out of toner and they had none in reserve unfortunately, so the last two bulletins were not printed.

We are producing a CD which includes all complete buller-tins (yes some of the later ones were reduced in hardcopy size to save cash), as well as over 100 photos of the event (including some funny ones of George if he lets me), and all the pgs for $12 including postage.

Because my laptop is up at Mt Buller with Alex, and as it is difficult to post from there, we will send this out to all interested parties after the junior.

The cheques/money orders can be sent to PO Box 201 Burnside SA 5066 and all expressions of interested given to Alex at saca@sachess.org

Thanks
Andrew Saint
Buller-tin chief editor

-This does not say that George was going to have any involvement in the creation of the CD's.

- It gives a SACA email address for the expressions of interest. Surely you have a different email address than SACA address if you wanted to keep SACA out of Buller stuff?

- If George Howard has the money, Why wasn't he the contact person for the Buller-tins?

I mean geez guys i know you did a great job up the mountain but some clarity would have been nice.

Denis_Jessop
20-03-2005, 07:44 PM
I don't imagine you'd have too much trouble getting people to cancel their orders. Extracting their refunds might be more problematic.

I can accept the shaky sands of responsibility here but I did express, and still feel, that the ACF shows little concern for the way the events are run on their behalf.

The CDs may not be a massive issue of themselves, just a few hundred dollars of pre-paid chessplayer's money is involved, but we (the royal "we" being the ACF) should care when things are half delivered.

If there are technical issues, or hold-ups with suppliers etc then OK, we can all understand that. But when someone is running a line that "they can all get stuffed" when they have received specific monies for a specific purpose (not part of any original tournament budget) that is irresponsible and inappropriate.

If this is correct, it does reflect poorly on the ACF and we should care about that. It doesn't matter who signed over what to whom - George was ACF President and is still a Vice-President? If he doesn't want to finish this off maybe he could hand over the list of orders, master disc and money to someone who will.


I'm more than a litle puzzled how this situatation "reflects poorly on the ACF".

What magic powers do you assume the ACF has that others do not? Too often people criticise the ACF for not doing something when the ACF has no effective power to do what is advocated. This is yet another example. :evil:

DJ

Rincewind
20-03-2005, 08:05 PM
I'm more than a litle puzzled how this situatation "reflects poorly on the ACF".

What magic powers do you assume the ACF has that others do not? Too often people criticise the ACF for not doing something when the ACF has no effective power to do what is advocated. This is yet another example. :evil:

Libby is not saying that ACF is responsible for the problem. However, it is an event owned by the ACF and the ACF chose George as the organiser. Since the issue seems to be with an ACF chosen organiser and a (very recent) ACF president, how could it not reflect poorly on the ACF?

I'm not saying the ACF has some special powers to force a resolution on the issue. However, they should be doing all that is within their power to ensure one of their premier events runs smoothly; before, during and after actual tournament.

Denis_Jessop
20-03-2005, 09:14 PM
Libby is not saying that ACF is responsible for the problem. However, it is an event owned by the ACF and the ACF chose George as the organiser. Since the issue seems to be with an ACF chosen organiser and a (very recent) ACF president, how could it not reflect poorly on the ACF?

I'm not saying the ACF has some special powers to force a resolution on the issue. However, they should be doing all that is within their power to ensure one of their premier events runs smoothly; before, during and after actual tournament.

OK; then would you and/or Libby like to tell me how you would go about doing it?

DJ

adelandre
20-03-2005, 09:27 PM
Dear chessnut,

George had no part in the creation of the CD - he was going to send them out. I was Bulletin Editor, so I saw it as my responsibility to do this when printing / photocopying failed to produce the final CD. George had all the money, he had the contact lists and was collecting more at the junior, and so he was to send them out. (just as I had done as main organiser in Adelaide when Robin Wedding was Cheif Bulletin editor). It was also sensible this way as if I paid for all the postage George would have to refund me - I am still yet to be repaid for setting up the PO Box last August ($55 setup fee). So you can understand I am not comfortable with being owed money by George. Also sending out stuff regarding the Open/Junior is an ongoing issue and should be handled by the Cheif organiser - I had finished my committments.

It was best not to include George's email as he most probably would not read it. At the time, I thought I could pass on others who wanted bulletins to George by phone as otherwise he would not do it (ie a service on my part). The PO Box was checked by George only and so he could collect money and extra requests and complete his task. I could have given my email, alex's uni email or the saca email. I did not see the confusion people would have in associating SACA with Mt Buller which is completely incorrect - it was a non issue at the time.

Again, if George was contact for the bulletins you would have had no response. At the time of that email i was finishing compiling the CD (or just finished) so was happy to answer questions on it. I thought the duplication and sending would be a formality for George. The use in that post of "we will send out" was probably an attempt by me to project the image of a united Mt Buller team - the readers of that post at that time did not need to be aware of the technicalities of who was going to do it and who's responsibility it was.

I hope this clears up your misunderstanding over clarity

Kind Regards
Andrew

clarity would have been nice.[/QUOTE]

peanbrain
20-03-2005, 09:56 PM
OK; then would you and/or Libby like to tell me how you would go about doing it?

DJ

Simple. You the ACF president right? How about the PRESIDENT tell your VICE PRESIDENT to pull his head in and do the right thing or else SACK him from ACF! :wall: :wall: :wall:

Rincewind
20-03-2005, 10:10 PM
OK; then would you and/or Libby like to tell me how you would go about doing it?

You mean if I was president of the ACF? You've probably already tried everything you can.

I assume you have spoken with George directly on the matter. The bad feeling of people who are waiting on the CDs, the fact that the "stuff them all" comment seems to have made it into the public arena, and that the delay reflects badly on the ACF.

I suppose my tack would be to ask him that it would be best for everyone, himself, SACA, ACF and chess in general if he could spend a little time to finish these things off. I would try determine why George thinks the CDs are taking so long to deliver. With these issues in mind I'd try to get George to commit to a date that could be published and he could make for the delivery of the CDs. Nothing unrealistic but something he could deliver on and then I'd communicate the issues and new expected delivery date via the weekly ACF bulletin.

I have no experience in dealing with George but hopefully with some encouragement and resetting of everyone's expectations the issues stopping the delivery of the CDs could be identified and worked out and everyone would be as happy as could be expected under the circumstances.

No magic bullets and it still may fail but it is better than 2 months of silence punctuated by the occasional rumour.

firegoat7
20-03-2005, 10:50 PM
Hello,

The ACF response on this seems like buck passing. Here is what I would do.

Ask for a volunteer or two.
Authorise somebody to claim petrol expenses.
Ask someone or two (of our volunteers) to get in a car and go and visit Howard in person.
Get the needed goods physically from Howard.
Take responsibility for the distribution of the CDs out of Howards hands and do it yourself.

Cheers Fg7

P.S If all this fails send the guy a horse head.

skip to my lou
20-03-2005, 11:52 PM
I am still yet to be repaid

Same here.

Lucena
21-03-2005, 12:06 AM
P.S If all this fails send the guy a horse head.

Or a kangaroo head?

Thunderspirit
21-03-2005, 01:47 AM
It is completely unnacceptable that some people linked to the organisation committee haven't been paid. (To be fair, I did even before the Open ... let alone the juniors had finished). I know for a fact the arbiters would have rioted otherwise.

On the ACF having responsibilty for events, I have to lean toward Denis on this one. While the Open/Champs/Jnrs are ACF events they are seldom run by the ACF in a practical sense, the ACF provides support.

In in the end the responibility of the organiser to run a good event. So Open's such as Canberra and Penrith were well run becuase of the organisers behind them, Mt Buller wasn't so good... oh well... we can learn...

The sad reality is: is that no-one wants to run these events (often) so those who do it, do it either becuase it's their state's turn, or they do it for the money.

Some may now rightful then say: Why don't I run an Open/Champs, instead of just passing comment, and the answer is: If I run an Open I would like it be a good one, and be committed to the project.

Andrew Greenwood taught me that.... (And BJ helped too...)

arosar
21-03-2005, 07:20 AM
On the ACF having responsibilty for events, I have to lean toward Denis on this one. While the Open/Champs/Jnrs are ACF events they are seldom run by the ACF in a practical sense, the ACF provides support.(And BJ helped too...)

That's a stupid stance Lee. I wonder what a certain exiled one would say about what is seemingly a gutless and impotent ACF?

No need to lecture us about who ran run what. But since it was the ACF who gave its blessing to George and co, then the ACF should at least do everything it can to facilitate resolution. In the minds of many chess playes, the ACF's very constituency, the ACF ought to do something. So fkn do something, be it through legal methods or a headless horse. Geddit??

AR

pax
21-03-2005, 08:32 AM
Alex, Do you still have the original CD material (Bullertins and photos)?

One solution might be to stick all the material up on the web somewhere (If approved by DJ and the editors perhaps) - maybe even on the mtbuller website where they were supposed to go in the first place?

It's not ideal, in that those who haven't paid for CDs get equal access to those that have, but it's a hell of a lot better than nothing.

Hey STML - if Alex were to send you a CD could you put the material on the website? (I would understand if he were reluctant having not beed reimbursed for his expenses).

Libby
21-03-2005, 08:50 AM
OK - Back to my point (as quoted in my email to George back on 28/7). Although I am no longer ACTJCL President, I will probably still claim that I am concerned about this on behalf of junior members. Parents have asked me what is happening. Possibly unfairly (but then, only George can explain) I have given them this response :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

When it is posted here that George says something like "stuff them all" am I incredulous? No. I just :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: because it matches my experience and second-hand information I received from others at the event.

Is it the ACF's responsibility? Maybe not in real terms but shouldn't your premier national event be the flagship for your sport? Shouldn't the ACF (membership - such as that is - and executive) want this event to run as well as it possibly can and shouldn't the ACF be concerned when it does not?

Lee - this isn't about people "having a go" or "doing their best" or about how hard it is to get a bid (don't forget that there were alternatives put before the ACF - whether we liked them, or their organisers, or not). It is about a service being promised, and many people paying for that up front, and it has not been delivered.

If, as I said last time, there is a reason it has not been delivered then it would, at the very least, be polite to pop something in the ACF Bulletin to say that there is a delay in supplying the CDs because .... and it is expected they will be distributed by .... And then this thread has no legs. I may still :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: if I don't like the excuse/reason (George & I had our differences over the use of those two words) but most people would accept it.

If however, the reason is that he can't be bothered and "stuff them all" and he is Vice-President of the ACF you'll have to explain how that doesn't reflect badly on the organisation, even if they bear no real legal or personal responsibility for it.

eclectic
21-03-2005, 08:51 AM
Hey STML - if Alex were to send you a CD could you put the material on the website? (I would understand if he were reluctant having not beed reimbursed for his expenses).

i see a double reluctance given that stml has not been reimbursed either

eclectic

Don_Harrison
21-03-2005, 09:06 AM
There are two telephone numbers from the ACF web-site which may be useful.

Trent Parker
21-03-2005, 09:49 AM
I know that Email is not the best form of contact but i might send George Howard an email. I wouldn't be one of those who are blocked.... and i have several email accounts. :D :D

pax
21-03-2005, 01:43 PM
I know that Email is not the best form of contact but i might send George Howard an email. I wouldn't be one of those who are blocked.... and i have several email accounts. :D :D

Die the death of a million spams!!!

pax
21-03-2005, 01:43 PM
i see a double reluctance given that stml has not been reimbursed either

eclectic

Actually, it was STML I was thinking of when I wrote that.

skip to my lou
21-03-2005, 04:20 PM
I don't mind publishing it on the chesschat server.

Libby
21-03-2005, 05:56 PM
I don't mind publishing it on the chesschat server.

Sounds good - but who gets to negotiate all those refunds?

Alan Shore
21-03-2005, 06:14 PM
Hey that'd be awesome, even if it was just the photos.

Denis_Jessop
21-03-2005, 07:48 PM
You mean if I was president of the ACF? You've probably already tried everything you can.

I assume you have spoken with George directly on the matter. The bad feeling of people who are waiting on the CDs, the fact that the "stuff them all" comment seems to have made it into the public arena, and that the delay reflects badly on the ACF.

I suppose my tack would be to ask him that it would be best for everyone, himself, SACA, ACF and chess in general if he could spend a little time to finish these things off. I would try determine why George thinks the CDs are taking so long to deliver. With these issues in mind I'd try to get George to commit to a date that could be published and he could make for the delivery of the CDs. Nothing unrealistic but something he could deliver on and then I'd communicate the issues and new expected delivery date via the weekly ACF bulletin.

I have no experience in dealing with George but hopefully with some encouragement and resetting of everyone's expectations the issues stopping the delivery of the CDs could be identified and worked out and everyone would be as happy as could be expected under the circumstances.

No magic bullets and it still may fail but it is better than 2 months of silence punctuated by the occasional rumour.

Thanks. Yes, I have already had some contact with George on finalising Mt Buller matters and am chasing up the CD matter in particular now - see also my posting #16 on this thread. I'm trying to ensure that things are sorted out as soon as possible though "finishing off Mt Buller" involves quite a bit more than the CDs. I'm sure that George appreciates the need for this resolution of outstanding matters. After all, if, as foreshadowed, a Mt Buller bid for the 2007 Aus Open and Juniors is submitted later this year, the ACF Council would, I assume, view it in the light of what happened last time.

DJ

klyall
21-03-2005, 08:09 PM
Is George still a member of the ACF?

If he has anything to do with the ACF he should be removed until all disks are sent to people who have paid for them or their money returned.

:evil:

Denis_Jessop
21-03-2005, 08:20 PM
Is George still a member of the ACF?

If he has anything to do with the ACF he should be removed until all disks are sent to people who have paid for them or their money returned.

:evil:

George is an ACF Vice President (there is no such thing as individual ACF membership). But you can't just remove people like that. Under current legal principles they have to be accorded procedural fairness (aka natural justice) otherwise the removal could be successfully challenged in court. Moreover any such action would require a Council resolution and I would not be prepared to put such a proposal to the Council at this time. It would be quite the wrong move, in my opinion.

DJ

Thunderspirit
21-03-2005, 08:50 PM
I need to make a slight correct to Libby on alternative bids. There was no other bid for the Open, and a vague statement on the Jnr's being held in Sydney.

If state associations/ JCL's want to run an event, that's great but some prior oganisation is required.

On Amiel's statement that my stance is stupid, I can only say this. There is only so much the ACF can do, the 'on the ground work' needs to be done at the state organisation level.

On the CD's I believe it would be a good guesture if the ACF offered to pay back those people who would like their money refunded. Of course the ACF doesn't have to as they aren't liable but it would help the situation somewhat.

On Amiel's other statement that I was lecturing everyone on other Open's being sucessful or not: I wasn't- I can appricate what goes into an event like an Oz Open, and both BJ and Andrew did good jobs. If you think you can do better, than give it ago. While I probably could do an Ok job, at the moment it's not a prioity for me.

Garvinator
21-03-2005, 08:56 PM
I need to make a slight correct to Libby on alternative bids. There was no other bid for the Open, and a vague statement on the Jnr's being held in Sydney.
i believe this to be incorrect, if i am incorrect then im sure ill be corrected ;) :whistle:

I am pretty sure there was an alternative bid to the mt buller one. It was a combination bid between David Cordover to run the open, whitehorse junior chess club to run the juniors and act to run the schools.

Maybe they werent as combined as I am stating here, but you get the drift.

arosar
21-03-2005, 09:01 PM
On Amiel's other statement that I was lecturing everyone on other Open's being sucessful or not: I wasn't- I can appricate what goes into an event like an Oz Open, and both BJ and Andrew did good jobs. If you think you can do better, than give it ago. While I probably could do an Ok job, at the moment it's not a prioity for me.

Obviously, your schooling didn't teach you enough reading or comprehension skills. This is what I wrote: "No need to lecture us about who ran run what." In different words, while we recognise that the ACF didn't run or organise the event, this body is still (1) the leading chess body in the country that (2) should make it its business to oversee that its constituents, the chess players, aren't 'ripped off' by those organisers to whom the ACF gave its blessing.

Simple.

AR

Thunderspirit
21-03-2005, 09:03 PM
I was at the ACF meeting in Adeliade were it was decided that MT Buller would be adopted, I don't remember any other bids. I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

If I am I'm sure Libby will the first to let me know... :owned:

Garvinator
21-03-2005, 09:06 PM
I was at the ACF meeting in Adeliade were it was decided that MT Buller would be adopted, I don't remember any other bids. I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

If I am I'm sure Libby will the first to let me know... :owned:
Lee,

I think that would have been the guru bid for mt buller, i thought you would have known better ;) not the George Howard bid, which was decided by phone hookup i believe.

Thunderspirit
21-03-2005, 09:10 PM
When the ACF awarded the bid to David Cordover there were no other bids. It was the reason I voted for the Mt Buller bid. It's irrealavant when George was given the Ok to do it with you.

There were no other bids at the ACF confrence in Adeliade.

jenni
21-03-2005, 10:11 PM
I was at the ACF meeting in Adeliade were it was decided that MT Buller would be adopted, I don't remember any other bids. I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

If I am I'm sure Libby will the first to let me know... :owned:

GG is talking about the bids AFTER Mt buller failed initially. An ACF phone hook up was held in July 2004. The ACTJCL put forward a fantastic bid for the schools (in an attempt to delink the schools from the overall scenario - as it always should be). Chess Victoria put in a bid for the juniors at Box Hill town hall, the Open in glen Eira and schools somewhere.

Thunderspirit
21-03-2005, 10:16 PM
Ahh yes...
This does sound familar. Well I suppose the ACF should take the rap if after the first bid flopped it was still decided to be held in Mt Buller. But it's over now: we should just learn form it.


As for Libby being the first to let me know: It was Canberra Chess orginal super mum: Good one Jenni... :clap: ;) :owned:

jenni
21-03-2005, 10:27 PM
As for Libby being the first to let me know:

Libby's not a night owl - she is probably already safely tucked up in bed on this rather damp and chilly Canberra night. :)

Thunderspirit
21-03-2005, 10:30 PM
Damp, chilly Canberran night.... People wonder why I like Canberra!

Garvinator
21-03-2005, 11:29 PM
As for Libby being the first to let me know: It was Canberra Chess orginal super mum: Good one Jenni... :clap: ;) :owned:
actually i was the first one to let you know

pax
22-03-2005, 12:37 PM
Sounds good - but who gets to negotiate all those refunds?

That's up to George.

Presumably he can either send the CD or send the refund.

Denis_Jessop
22-03-2005, 07:54 PM
GG is talking about the bids AFTER Mt buller failed initially. An ACF phone hook up was held in July 2004. The ACTJCL put forward a fantastic bid for the schools (in an attempt to delink the schools from the overall scenario - as it always should be). Chess Victoria put in a bid for the juniors at Box Hill town hall, the Open in glen Eira and schools somewhere.

Just for the record (as it seems otherwise fairly much a matter of history) the situation was this.

At the Adelaide National Conference CV submitted a bid for the Aus Open, Juniors and Schools Teams events to be held at Mt Buller. The main organiser for CV was to be DC. There were no other formal bids. CAQ said it had been intending to bid for the juniors but would not proceed with its bid. NSWCA said it wished time to consider the matter as it was thinking of submitting bids for the Open and the Schools Teams. Motions for a delay in a vote on the CV bid for this reason were defeated and the CV bid was accepted.

Subsequently the ACF was informed that the CV bid would not proceed and further bids were sought.

At the ACF Council meeting held by phone hook-up on 12 July 2004, three separate bids were before the meeting, one from CV, presented by DC, for all three events to be held at venues in Melbourne , one from George Howard direct to hold all three events at Mt Buller and one from the ACTJCL, presented by Libby Smith and Jenni Oliver, to hold the Schools Teams in Canberra. After debate, the bid by George was accepted (7 for, 1 against and 3 abstentions). The total voting strength of the Council was then 14 but two members were not at the meeting, having apologised, and the CANT was incommunicado.

DJ

Garvinator
22-03-2005, 08:32 PM
and the CANT was incommunicado.

DJ
now there is a shocker ;) :lol: