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biggles
15-03-2005, 06:29 AM
I have just returned from the Tournament at Ballarat. At the opening ceremony the arbiter stated that the person whose phone went off during play would forfeit that game, and that this rule would be enforced.
On the last day alone, mobile phones went off 3 times. On 2 of those occasions I was within a meter of the player, as a bystander.
The offenders simply turned off their phones and played on. No admissions of guilt, no giving themselves a red card, and no protests from the opposition.
Of course the opposition would not do that because it is called lagging and no one lags in this country.
So the mobile phone rules in Australian chess are a joke...unless we introduce the concept of mandatory reporting.
I propose that the ACF introduce mandatory reporting of mobile phone violations as a rule in all Australian rated tournaments. Yes, it is an offence of the same magnitude as [snip] in my opinion.

Biggles

Rincewind
15-03-2005, 07:56 AM
Thread locked until everyone calms down.

Rincewind
15-03-2005, 09:27 AM
OK, reopening thread. The first post stays. It may be insensitive and possibly insulting but they are not in themselves reasons to infringe on Biggles expression of them. However future outburst of highly offensive language will be treated harshly (as they make more work for me).

Now play nice.

Mischa
15-03-2005, 10:00 AM
The one mobile phone offender who did loose the game as a result was a new little junior...I guess it'll never happen to her again!

Alan Shore
15-03-2005, 10:07 AM
Please keep to the topic. This is in Australian chess and about the enforcement of the Mobile phone rule at Ballarat and in general. Side issues (like freedom of expression) are best discussed in other forums.

OK sure. It's just that it appeared you were telling me off since mine was the last post before the lockdown, so thought I'd clarify that at the same time.

For the record, I disagree with the mandatory reporting... it encourages taddle tale dobbers. If someone wants to report it, they can. Personally I'd rather win the traditional way.

Rincewind
15-03-2005, 11:39 AM
Thread split has occurred. Please respond there to non-chess issues.

arosar
15-03-2005, 11:53 AM
Sorry man, I didn't mean to give you all that hard work.

Anyway, I accept the rule and I don't think it's draconian. My reasoning is that we're there to play chess, first and foremost, and it seems to me downright disrespectful to be taking calls, etc, etc. In saying that I understand that some people do have a pressing need to be on call - so having the phone on mute is OK with me. Also, I personally will not report my opponent if his phone went off. If the DOP hears the phone, he can make his own decision.

Basically, this issue of mandatory reporting isn't new and, in fact, affects all other rules in chess today. Should we now make it also mandatory to report a breach of the "touch move" rule? Players are intelligent creatures, I'm sure, and make their calls on the spot according to the precise context of their circumstance. Let me illustrate. If I'm playing some kid, I'd likely not enforce the touch move; yet if I'm playing some experienced player, in a tough game, I'd likely enforce it.

AR

Spiny Norman
15-03-2005, 06:17 PM
I pretty much agree with all you said AR. If I'm playing a junior, I would point out "touch/move" to them, but only as a warning. If they did it again in the same game, I would enforce it though. Education needs to be matched with a measured level of enforcement I think.

I recently played a junior (age ~12) who started talking to me during the game. For example, as I was gradually wearing him down in the middle game he said "You're pretty strong, do you have a rating?". I let the silence hang for a few seconds, made my move, pressed the clock and said "Happy to talk to you after the game...". I don't think he'll do that again, but one never knows. He's a good kid, so I was happy for it to be a learning experience.

In respect of the mobile phone, perhaps there is scope for some latitude, in the same way that a batsman given out can be recalled by the opposing team with the permission of the umpire(s) in cricket?

The difficulty with that approach though is that the impact of a phone going off is going to potentially distract more than just the person sitting opposite the offender at the board ... nearby players are also presumably affected.

Like Belthasar, I would much prefer to win OTB than by forfeit. But what to do about serial offenders?

I carry a mobile phone myself, and I *often* forget to set it to silent ring. I haven't been caught out yet, but its only a matter of time. I'm often late to the board because I'm an organiser, so I also often miss the DOPs reminders about phones because I am out of the room attending to something or other.

BTW, my opponent last week was writing down his moves before making them on the board. I didn't mind, because it gave me a few extra seconds of thinking time, so I said nothing. But I might mention it to him this week, just in passing. His next opponent might not be so forgiving.

Garvinator
15-03-2005, 06:22 PM
BTW, my opponent last week was writing down his moves before making them on the board. I didn't mind, because it gave me a few extra seconds of thinking time, so I said nothing. But I might mention it to him this week, just in passing. His next opponent might not be so forgiving.
at the moment this practice is entirely legal, you dont need to mention anything to your opponent.

However, after July 1 2005, it is forbidden to write your moves down before you play them on the board. The move must be played first and then written down.

After July 1 Laws of Chess:

8.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibly as possible, in the algebraic notation (Appendix E), on the ‘scoresheet’ prescribed for the competition. It is forbidden to write the moves in advance, unless the player is claiming a draw according to Article 9.2 or 9.3.
A player may reply to his opponent's move before recording it, if he so wishes. He must record his previous move before making another. Both players must record the offer of a draw on the scoresheet. (Appendix E.12)
If a player is unable to keep score, an assistant, who is acceptable to the arbiter, may be provided by the player to write the moves. His clock shall be adjusted by the arbiter in an equitable way.

Spiny Norman
15-03-2005, 06:25 PM
at the moment this practice is entirely legal, you dont need to mention anything to your opponent.

However, after July 1 2005, it is forbidden to write your moves down before you play them on the board. The move must be played first and then written down.

Ah, thanks GG, much appreciated!

Garvinator
15-03-2005, 06:27 PM
Ah, thanks GG, much appreciated!
no need to thank me ;) thank fide :eek:

Alan Shore
15-03-2005, 06:37 PM
Haha, that's funny.. it used to annoy me a bit when my opp would write down his moves first.. oh well.

Hey Frosty, Tony the Tiger, awesome! 'They're Grrrrrrrrrrrrreat!'

Garvinator
15-03-2005, 06:49 PM
Haha, that's funny.. it used to annoy me a bit when my opp would write down his moves first.. oh well.

Hey Frosty, Tony the Tiger, awesome! 'They're Grrrrrrrrrrrrreat!'
when does your opponent have to record, you always play rapid, blitz, suicide or transfer :P

Alan Shore
15-03-2005, 06:52 PM
when does your opponent have to record, you always play rapid, blitz, suicide or transfer :P

Hence I said 'used to' :P

Haha, bug notation.. that'd be a fun exercise!

Spiny Norman
15-03-2005, 07:18 PM
Hey Frosty, Tony the Tiger, awesome! 'They're Grrrrrrrrrrrrreat!'

Thanks to Barry for that avatar! I would've stuck with the fridge until the day I died, but he's convinced that a change is as good as a holiday. So I've been busy collecting some future alternatives and now have them stashed away in the archives. Some of them are pretty funny... ;)

antichrist
15-03-2005, 07:31 PM
Frosty,
I looked for a picture of Anti-Christ and come up with the following site, worth a look at. Only I can't copy them and they come with a warning.

http://advice7.com/psychic_spiritual/badspirits.html

Mischa
15-03-2005, 08:13 PM
The mobile phone rule , as I understand it, is not that the ringing can distract or annoy players, but that it is a communication device capable of transmitting, in a variety of ways, information and assistance.
Is this correct?

arosar
15-03-2005, 08:27 PM
Both.

AR

Mischa
15-03-2005, 08:33 PM
Thanks

Garvinator
15-03-2005, 08:42 PM
The mobile phone rule , as I understand it, is not that the ringing can distract or annoy players, but that it is a communication device capable of transmitting, in a variety of ways, information and assistance.
Is this correct?
Amiel is correct, it is both. A phone ringing is a mass distraction and also having a phone on in the playing hall can be used as a communication device for moves or be used as a pocket fritz type machine.

Well after July 1, the rules get even more strict anyways.

Article 12: The conduct of the players

12.1 The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute.

12.2 a During play the players are forbidden to make use of any notes, sources of information, advice, or analyse on another chessboard.

b. It is strictly forbidden to bring mobile phones or other electronic means of communication, not authorised by the arbiter, into the playing venue. If a player’s mobile phone rings in the playing venue during play, that player shall lose the game. The score of the opponent shall be determined by the arbiter.

The key part in my opinion is, not authorised by the arbiter.

Denis_Jessop
15-03-2005, 09:14 PM
Amiel is correct, it is both. A phone ringing is a mass distraction and also having a phone on in the playing hall can be used as a communication device for moves or be used as a pocket fritz type machine.

Well after July 1, the rules get even more strict anyways.

Article 12: The conduct of the players

12.1 The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute.

12.2 a During play the players are forbidden to make use of any notes, sources of information, advice, or analyse on another chessboard.

b. It is strictly forbidden to bring mobile phones or other electronic means of communication, not authorised by the arbiter, into the playing venue. If a player’s mobile phone rings in the playing venue during play, that player shall lose the game. The score of the opponent shall be determined by the arbiter.

The key part in my opinion is, not authorised by the arbiter.

Funny thing about Art. 12. A few years ago there was an odd match between Anand and Karpov in which the players used a computer for reference during play. I think the same has been done since. As this is forbidden by Art.12 one must assume that what they played was not chess, which isn't a bad conclusion ;)

DJ

Mischa
15-03-2005, 09:19 PM
Well, there is one set of rules for the masses and another for the rest....?

Spiny Norman
15-03-2005, 10:07 PM
http://advice7.com/psychic_spiritual/badspirits.html

I think the warning might read "abandon all reason ye who enter this website". :eek:

Garvinator
15-03-2005, 10:25 PM
Well, there is one set of rules for the masses and another for the rest....?
what do you mean, please elaborate and be specific.

Bill Gletsos
15-03-2005, 10:29 PM
Well, there is one set of rules for the masses and another for the rest....?Actually the standard rules had nothing to do with the situation.
It was played under what are referred to as "Advanced Chess" rules where it was entirely legal to use a computer whilst playing.

Mischa
15-03-2005, 10:29 PM
Garvin...think

Garvinator
15-03-2005, 10:48 PM
Garvin...think
i dont want to make assumptions and suppositions about a situation that I have no clue at this what you are talking about.

Lucena
15-03-2005, 11:04 PM
You could always try a PM.

antichrist
15-03-2005, 11:12 PM
I think the warning might read "abandon all reason ye who enter this website". :eek:

Frosty
for me to use Card 15 as avartar (?) would I have to print it out and then scan in?

Recherché
15-03-2005, 11:37 PM
what do you mean, please elaborate and be specific.

I believe she(?) was implying that perhaps the top players aren't subject to the same rigorous enforcement of the rules that regular players are.

I think you'll find (noidea) that in fact they're subject to much stricter enforcement of the rules than players in lower level competitions - not just the arbiters but the players themselves tend to insist on it.

Recherché
15-03-2005, 11:38 PM
Oh, and the "Advanced Chess" played with computer assistance isn't run in accordance with the FIDE Laws of Chess - there's no reason for it to be. :)

Garvinator
15-03-2005, 11:40 PM
I think you'll find (noidea) that in fact they're subject to much stricter enforcement of the rules than players in lower level competitions - not just the arbiters but the players themselves tend to insist on it.
I am not if individually this is the case, meaning player to player, but the mobile phone rule is more strictly enforced for the higher level tournaments.

Having seen a few tournaments where it is enforced, players gradually become used to it and as you can see from some of the debates here, there is more discussion when it isnt enforced in the 'major' tournaments after being read out as the mobile phone rule would be.

antichrist
15-03-2005, 11:42 PM
Bobby Fisher would demand you eyes be cut out if you even blinked. He reakoned the Ruskie seconds were trying to hynotise him. The whole world laughed at him.