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Mischa
22-02-2005, 08:50 PM
My kid was playing in a fairly friendly rapid play tournament and with two rounds to go he knew he only needed a draw to win the tournament. He elected to play a forced draw [so he tells me] against a player he would normally defeat 9 times out of 10. He ended up winning the tournament with a lead of 1.5 points...with a scorte of 6.5 out of 7. A great score. He elected to draw against one of his best friends, who, as a consequence, came equal second.
The kids were happy with this result, and I was pleased that his friendships were considered during the tournament [he may not have offered a draw to anyone else].
At what point do you suggest to a kid that a draw is not O.K? Or indeed is O.K?
I was not really concerned at this tournament, but wanted some idea how to guide my junior in the future...mainly when he is playing friends. At what point should he not consider his friends? He is 10 years old, nearly 11.

Can someone help me with the ethics?

arosar
22-02-2005, 09:04 PM
Teach your kid to act selfishly but honestly. That is to say, to pursue his own best interest. If a draw is good enough to win, to score money, or earn a norm - or whatever, then a draw it is.

AR

Mischa
22-02-2005, 09:15 PM
Thanks, and that is what I try to tell him. But it is not unknown for him to "give away' a draw to help a friend, or to feel sorry for an opponent. I guess my problem is how to keep him ruthless but nice :hmm:

antichrist
22-02-2005, 09:45 PM
Thanks, and that is what I try to tell him. But it is not unknown for him to "give away' a draw to help a friend, or to feel sorry for an opponent. I guess my problem is how to keep him ruthless but nice :hmm:

I don't agree, if 9/10 he wins and if has decent position then no draw, no matter who offers what. He has a duty to other players to treat everyone equally so that they also have a fair chance to be runner up etc.. Other players can feel ganged up on if they are locked out by such tactics.

My pride and my reputation will not let me ease off -- not that I am in many winning positons these days.

Mischa
22-02-2005, 10:11 PM
I don't agree, if 9/10 he wins and if has decent position then no draw, no matter who offers what. He has a duty to other players to treat everyone equally so that they also have a fair chance to be runner up etc.. Other players can feel ganged up on if they are locked out by such tactics.

My pride and my reputation will not let me ease off -- not that I am in many winning positons these days.


You bring up an interesting point, and one I had not considered while being a focused mother. First I have to clarify that my junior only told me that he deliberately played for draw, [I actually believe him this time]. But what you say is correct..he effectively 'robbed' this junior from a maybe win. If my junior defeated him, he would have had a perfect score. Well and good for him but as you say he robbed his chance to score, and maybe do better. My junior nearly lost the last game..he knew he couldn't lose his section and got lazy.
He says he made a wise tounament decision, but I think it was based not only on his position in the tournament but on the fact that he was playing his best friend. If my junior had won the game his friend may not have had a chance at a place [he came = second] If my junior had lost the game, he still[probably ] would have won the tournament.
My question still remains, but modified. Do I tell my junior to go and win at all costs, or do let him make his own decisions about friendship groups and competition?
Is winning at chess more important than maintaining friendships?

antichrist
22-02-2005, 10:31 PM
I suppose it would be an ideal world if friendships did not come into it. When you look at it from perspective of player 3, if he senses through watching the game or otherwise that a draw was "given" rather than earnt it would be discouraging and could cost your junior a potential friendship.

As one who has not placed great value on freindships, thinking we should be respected for what we have done instead, I say play on. I was very good at maths and my best mate a dope, we could have cheated during exams but I never despiting his requesting, I still kept his friendship to this day.

Winning at all cost could mean many things -- keep that section fair.

In the final round it is supposed to be a tactic of George Xie to draw the final game, with the comp already in the bag. It could minutely affect ratings.

It could be that in many cases the perfect scorer going into the final round is more tired due to heavier concentrating and "ready" for a draw.

jay_vee
23-02-2005, 05:54 AM
My question still remains, but modified. Do I tell my junior to go and win at all costs, or do let him make his own decisions about friendship groups and competition?

"at all costs" is a bit harsh maybe, but "always try to win as hard as you can by any fair, sporting means possible" sounds good to me :-). When I was younger I would often go for the easy draw instead of trying to play for a win, it hasn't helped my strength. When I made a conscious decision not to accept draws except for dead-drawn positions, I improved quite a bit.



Is winning at chess more important than maintaining friendships?

Is a friendship worth maintaining if it wouldn't even survive an honest, fair loss over the chess board?

Trent Parker
23-02-2005, 07:29 AM
I actually find that if i go into a game wanting to draw.... i tend to loose. So i think aim for the win with the option of drawing if the position looks roughly equal.

(although my style of play is either the attack pays off or it doesn't and i loose)

Rincewind
23-02-2005, 08:01 AM
Is a friendship worth maintaining if it wouldn't even survive an honest, fair loss over the chess board?

Time for a hypothetical?

OK you are a junior playing in a tournament. The tournament is a memorial named after your best friend's mother who was a tireless chess administrator and recently passed away. You are the second seed and your friend is the first but afetr a shock loss in the penultimate round you are out of the hunt for the top 3 places. You are drawn in the last round the play your best friend who leads the pack by a point and needs only a draw for an outright first. He also is notorious for feeling nerves and when he comes to the board is highly aggitated. You are both 17 and will not qualify to play inthe tournament again.

After 12 moves the position is reasonably equal but far from dead. Your friend proposes a draw. What do you do?

Ian Rout
23-02-2005, 08:02 AM
There are two topics here.

Should you offer a draw from a position that you could/should win because your opponent is a friend? Of course not, that's just silly. Think about it from the other side, would you expect a friend to give you a draw against their own interests?

Technically playing to help another player rather than yourself is also cheating.

The other issue is whether you should be prepared to take a draw, even from a better position, if that's all you need. Yes you should. A chess tournament is about the total score, not any individual result. Your responsibility is to yourself.

However I think chess nut is right, the worst way to get a draw is to play for one - I recall Ian Rogers saying this at a lecture and it makes sense. Consciously playing for a draw may entail making inferior moves, and your opponent can keep the game going forever looking for a win if they are at no risk of losing. Better to be back in the pavilion with the point in your pocket, even if you only needed half a point.

Edit: A good illustration of the last point is the final game of the Ponomariov-Ivanchuk "world championship" match. Although Ponomariov needed a draw he played aggressively, and when Ponomariov had what was practically a won position Ivanchuk was quite pleased to take a draw.

arosar
23-02-2005, 08:20 AM
Your responsibility is to yourself.

Exactly right. All these other issues like friendships and honour have absolutely nothing to do with it. You're there to compete. And, as I said, you should act selfishly and honestly.

AR

shaun
23-02-2005, 09:25 AM
Exactly right. All these other issues like friendships and honour have absolutely nothing to do with it. You're there to compete. And, as I said, you should act selfishly and honestly.

AR

I completely disagree with this assesment. Playing chess isn't something that is divorced from who you are as a person. On occasion I have offered or accepted draws for the following reasons
a) My (lower rated) opponent has outplayed me but has blundered at the death allowing me an easy win
b) The result of the game is immaterial to me (either I am way out in front or have no chance of a prize) and my opponent has had a lousy tournament
c) My opponent is relatively new to the tournament scene and I'm feeling generous
d) The game has gone on long enough for my and my opponents liking
e) My sad middle aged opponent has needed to nip off to the movies with his new girlfriend
f) My opponent just needs a draw to get a FIDE rating

In all these cases I have done this to feel better about myself as a person, not just as a chess player.
So my advice on this topic is to decide what is really important when you sit down to play, and act accordingly.

Ian Rout
23-02-2005, 09:44 AM
I completely disagree with this assesment. Playing chess isn't something that is divorced from who you are as a person. On occasion I have offered or accepted draws for the following reasons
a) My (lower rated) opponent has outplayed me but has blundered at the death allowing me an easy win
b) The result of the game is immaterial to me (either I am way out in front or have no chance of a prize) and my opponent has had a lousy tournament
c) My opponent is relatively new to the tournament scene and I'm feeling generous
d) The game has gone on long enough for my and my opponents liking
e) My sad middle aged opponent has needed to nip off to the movies with his new girlfriend
f) My opponent just needs a draw to get a FIDE rating

In all these cases I have done this to feel better about myself as a person, not just as a chess player.
So my advice on this topic is to decide what is really important when you sit down to play, and act accordingly.
I think it's fair to say that there are other or higher principles, but I don't think giving away points or half-points to someone purely because they are a friend comes under that heading. You wouldn't deliberately let a friend score a goal/try in a football game if they were on the other team.

Similarly you would be entitled to be annoyed if another group of friends were rigging games with each other to your detriment.

I think it also has to be looked at in context - some of Shaun's cases are fair enough in tournaments that don't matter much or where they don't affect the outcome, but I wouldn't like to see a world championship determined that way.

arosar
23-02-2005, 09:57 AM
a) My (lower rated) opponent has outplayed me but has blundered at the death allowing me an easy win

That's his problem.


b) The result of the game is immaterial to me (either I am way out in front or have no chance of a prize) and my opponent has had a lousy tournament

Yeah . . . I've done that too.


c) My opponent is relatively new to the tournament scene and I'm feeling generous

Done that too.


d) The game has gone on long enough for my and my opponents liking

And this one.


e) My sad middle aged opponent has needed to nip off to the movies with his new girlfriend

Never done that. Why the hec should I concede a draw so he can go have a good root? He made the choice to play in the tourn and that's that.


f) My opponent just needs a draw to get a FIDE rating

Make the bas.tard earn it.


In all these cases I have done this to feel better about myself as a person, not just as a chess player.

I don't necessarily disagree with your general drift really. But it just seems to me that to make things easy upon the player - just simplify the whole issue by being brutally selfish. After all, we're there to compete. Leave all the fancy luvvy-duvvy stuff behind.

AR

Libby
23-02-2005, 10:41 AM
And don't forget the other guys in the tournament. Accept a draw in your own interest to guarantee a place (just such an offer was made to my daughter in the juniors, accepting the offer was in the interests of both players - although coach of said daughter was a little disappointed because position was actually good - not winning perhaps, but good).

However, it did generate a number of unhappy faces from other players who were nudged out as a result. I do think that's tough bikkies in this instance because the draw was accepted by two players who gained an advantage personally so why knock it back. However, I have seen & heard of players giving a draw to a friend to guarantee their friend a place when the outcome was immaterial to themselves. That pretty much amounts to throwing a game in my book and the harm done is to other players. Losing or drawing to a friend (often pre-arranged) to guarantee them a money or trophy prize probably can't be stamped out but I would never, ever, ever condone my child doing it.

I had two Curtin teams at the Aus Schools. The better team pretty much had the competition wrapped up on the first day but could have had an ironclad guarantee of a win by beating the second team 4-0 in the first round on Sunday. Instead, we had one major upset to win 3-1 making it possible (numerically)) we could be overtaken. Should I have told those kids to lie down and die 4-0? If I was going to do that, I shouldn't have entered them in the first place.

I have even heard of a draw offer (between juniors) made from a clearly winning position because the winning junior was worried the other child would get in trouble from their parent if they lost the game.

Fortunately (?) for me perhaps, Kayleigh almost never has a draw because she opts for the style of "blunder or brilliancy" and very little in-between and the whole issue really doesn't come up.

pballard
23-02-2005, 10:44 AM
I completely disagree with this assesment. Playing chess isn't something that is divorced from who you are as a person. On occasion I have offered or accepted draws for the following reasons
a) My (lower rated) opponent has outplayed me but has blundered at the death allowing me an easy win
b) The result of the game is immaterial to me (either I am way out in front or have no chance of a prize) and my opponent has had a lousy tournament
c) My opponent is relatively new to the tournament scene and I'm feeling generous
d) The game has gone on long enough for my and my opponents liking
e) My sad middle aged opponent has needed to nip off to the movies with his new girlfriend
f) My opponent just needs a draw to get a FIDE rating

In all these cases I have done this to feel better about myself as a person, not just as a chess player.
So my advice on this topic is to decide what is really important when you sit down to play, and act accordingly.

You're welcome to play like that, but I must disagree. I'm there to play, and give a good game as I can. I don't think anyone's helped by gift points, and on the rare occasions I've been on the receiving end (e.g. once my opponent, a titled player, wanted to try a "swiss gambit") it's been a bit embarassing really. Especially the FIDE rating one: I don't want it known that playing Ballard gives you an easy road to a prize/FIDE rating/title (other than my usual flakey play, of course!) Even Barry Cox's hypothetical: wouldn't it be better if the chap won the trophy on merit, not because everyone else felt sorry for him.

Tactical draws (when leading my a full point with half a round to go) are an entirely different matter, and quite legitimate IMHO. But I'd also agree that playing for a draw is dangerous. The only time I've need a draw to win the last round, I played for a draw (with White) and nearly lost. Plus, I now regret I missed my (so far) only chance to finish a tournament with a perfect score. So if you need a draw, I'd recommend playing your natural game.

--
Peter

Mischa
23-02-2005, 11:19 AM
I,ve always tried to stress sportsmanship with my kids, and in chess, as with other things, I always say there are no enemies and no friends during the game, just oponents. This was necessary as my junior occasionally feels bad about winning some of his games.
In this instance, achieving a draw in the penultimate round guaranteed a win in his section, but not the whole tournament. In the end he won the whole tournament anyway. His motivation was hoping to win overall at the end of the year...it's a pretty big trophy and he just missed out last year.
Two other juniors came equal second...one his friend he drew with and another. I pointed out to him that his draw meant the other junior missed out on a straight second. He didn't realise this at the time, of course. I also think he amy have been a bit concerned during the game and so played a move that forced a draw{?}
It was only a one day rapid, and all in good fun.

antichrist
23-02-2005, 12:12 PM
There are two ethnic groups in OZ who are particularly strong in chess (a Chinese one is emerging, the third). Both these earlier groups got reputations for "cheating" amongst themselves. It was mainly for "throwing" draws at high level. As Lloyd Fell says: ....

As Libby said earlier, the other girls's faces were like sour lemons -- and they were only juniors and they knew.

So if you want to get a "reputation" ... People aren't dumb, not in the chess world at least.

I have mixed in other worlds (as am sure many others also have) and you can't compare other groups intelligence with chess groups. (Not including TCN and PaulS of course -- sorry boys).

Kevin Bonham
23-02-2005, 02:01 PM
I think noidea's junior's draw as described was fine. The tournament result is a bigger objective than the game, it's perfectly fair enough to take a draw to ensure that objective rather than take any risk of not getting there. It's where a player takes draws that serve no chess-based purpose that things get more interesting.

I don't do "sympathy" draws, and don't expect anyone to do them for me, but I have been involved in a few last round draws where the game was meaningless and both of us just wanted to cut our losses and get out of there.

I've mentioned sympathy draws before in the context of a Hobart player who has been notorious for chucking half-points to very weak female players because he wants to "encourage" them. I don't agree with this sort of thing.

noidea refers to the impact of the draw on the opponent who was thereby prevented from winning. That impact is irrelevant because the opponent could still have won had he been good enough from the start, even with the junior playing for a draw. If the opponent wanted to win but could not get a strong enough position to continue the game when the draw offer was made, then that's his problem.

Mischa
23-02-2005, 10:09 PM
I agree with my junior playing for a draw in this situation...it showed some tournament "nous" which he has not displayed previously.
I'm not entirely convinced that the situation was as totally under his control as he suggests, but Kevin is correct, if his opponent allowed this to happen, that is his problem. At no point do I think my kid was doing anything but ensuring his own win.
However, playing with friends is sometimes difficult for these kids, at least for my kid.
I raised the issue because during his last tournament he was offered a draw a total of, I think, 15 times. He finally accepted one due to time constraints and his own mismanagement of the tournament...he is only 10.
I have seen many times a result resting on a draw between juniors that one would think were totally mismatched. I recall major junior tournament yeas ago when my junior [which is why I remember it] lost or came second or whatever, because two brothers were playing against each other in the final round. Both were in different age groupings. The older had no chance of winning his section, but the younger had a chance to win, and knock my junior into second place. Surprise, surprise! They drew...never had before and never had again, although their mother assured me that they draw all the time...Hmmm.

Libby
24-02-2005, 08:13 AM
I recall major junior tournament yeas ago when my junior [which is why I remember it] lost or came second or whatever, because two brothers were playing against each other in the final round. Both were in different age groupings. The older had no chance of winning his section, but the younger had a chance to win, and knock my junior into second place. Surprise, surprise! They drew...never had before and never had again, although their mother assured me that they draw all the time...Hmmm.

Obviously some families thrive on a different environment to my own :( .

My eldest daughter also used to play but is used to being good at most things she does and didn't take kindly to her younger sister being better than her.

They had to play one another in a late round in a tournament. Pre-game I am getting impatient with older child who is wailing over the unfairness of having to undergo the humiliation of being beaten (again) by her younger sibling.

During the game I am wishing to throttle older child who is pouting, scowling and all but bawling as the anticipated humiliation is well underway.

However - youngest child gets cocky and stalemates older sister. Roles are reversed and thundercloud is well and truly raining over the younger one's head whilst the older child starts dancing around the room.

I am challenged by others over the possibility of an "arranged" result (both my children win a prize in part - for older child - because of this result). Obviously anyone who imagines any such arrangement to be possible comes from a home where siblings enjoy a more loving relationship than the children in my home!

I agree it can be a problem but probably not more than that which occurs between close friends. Some children would do it but mine would die a death by a thousand tortures before advantaging their sibling this way. (Is that a good sign? :hmm: )

I have had people suggest it's better to avoid pairing siblings (and father/son etc). I don't like to see siblings etc paired but the alternative can be a distorted draw, or even a distorted result where a weaker child (esp in a small tournament) is advantaged by never being paired against certain players at the top of the event because of the relationship. At one stage my daughter was playing an event where 3 father/son pairings were barred with less than 20 entrants in the event. Very strange pairings at times as an obvious consequence.

It's difficult but I think you just cross your fingers and hope for a level of integrity. Over many years I now see these things (including the odd swiss perfect aberration) as a swings-and-roundabouts thing - sometimes it works for you and sometimes it doesn't but mostly it all comes out even in the end.

antichrist
24-02-2005, 12:35 PM
For two reasons it is be better if father/son can be avoided.

You have these lousy, selfish, egocentric fathers who can't bear a loss against their child, so will try so hard and if loses will then never play them again. How lousy. The child could even be aprehensive about defeating their father because they know of their father's lousy characher.

Then the other type who don't want to try real hard against their children because they love them so much. Isn't that sweet?

See, mothers can't say such nice words.

Ian Rout
24-02-2005, 01:13 PM
Swiss Perfect has a facility to avoid pairings between people from the same club which can, by treating a family as a "club", be used to avoid pairing members of the same family.

However I don't really recommend this in general. In other tournaments (weekenders, junior championships) you can't proscribe opponents (imagine if Cathy Rogers was the only player in a tournament who didn't have to play Ian). You are less likely to cope if you find playing a relative or friend uncomfortable. Having had the experience of doing it a few times you can get used to the idea that it's just another opponent.

If there is really a problem that two siblings are sufficiently close in standard that they realistically might meet in the last round then I think a better solution to potential cosmetic problems is to forcibly pair them earlier rather than not pair them at all.

Belconnen has a number of sets of siblings or parent/child and I have never heard any complaints either from people having to play family members or of results being arranged (though I would probably not be the first one to hear).

jenni
24-02-2005, 09:13 PM
Belconnen has a number of sets of siblings or parent/child and I have never heard any complaints either from people having to play family members or of results being arranged (though I would probably not be the first one to hear).

I don't think it is a problem, because there really aren't any prizes or anything like that. I hate playing my kids - mainly because I know they will crush me, but also because that killer instinct just isn't there, when it is a family member.

The ACTJCL had quite a few problems in the late 90's with siblings throwing games at critical points and in fact it was policy not to pair siblings if it could be avoided. Of course that can work the other way if both kids are strong and thus they get an advantage out of not playing each other. Its been some years since the ACTJCL has used that rule and I am not aware of any problems.

I think there are going to be times when kids give each other draws for a whole variety of reasons, but I do think it should be viewed as a game and friendships should be bigger than what happens on the board. We've always taught our kids to be friends away form the board but to fight hard across the board.

Garvinator
25-02-2005, 01:19 AM
I think there are going to be times when kids give each other draws for a whole variety of reasons, but I do think it should be viewed as a game and friendships should be bigger than what happens on the board. We've always taught our kids to be friends away form the board but to fight hard across the board.
one advantage that actjcl has, if i remember previous posts correctly, is that there is no prize money involved.

Spiny Norman
25-02-2005, 06:01 AM
You have these lousy, selfish, egocentric fathers who can't bear a loss against their child, so will try so hard and if loses will then never play them again. How lousy. The child could even be aprehensive about defeating their father because they know of their father's lousy characher. Then the other type who don't want to try real hard against their children because they love them so much. Isn't that sweet?

I've had to play my son (aged 12) twice in the past couple of weeks. Managed to beat him both times. I am making the most of it now because he's clearly going to be a stronger player than me shortly. Last night he played a ~1550-rated adult and was a pawn ahead before blundering and losing late in the game.

He has beaten me a couple of times in casual games @ home. I've taken great pride in these events and made sure he knew I was pleased with him. I would no more "go easy" on him than he would on me, and if he was clearly winning in a serious game and offered me a draw I would probably refuse to accept on principle.

A bigger challenge will be my daughter (aged 8). She's a completely different personality and is easily discouraged. I'm not quite sure how to deal with that scenario yet. Fortunately she won her first game in last night's junior comp, so she should be cock-a-hoop this morning when she wakes up.

jenni
25-02-2005, 08:50 AM
one advantage that actjcl has, if i remember previous posts correctly, is that there is no prize money involved.

That is true - no prize money, becasue we (like NSWJCL) feel it is inappropriate for children. Itis why Belconnen can run so easily I think, is that there are no prizes (except if we host an ACTCA event, like the ACT Championships). All you play for at BCC is free entry to the next tournament.

The ACTJCL does have trophies (lots of them) and competition is very fierce for these.

Libby
25-02-2005, 09:52 AM
A bigger challenge will be my daughter (aged 8). She's a completely different personality and is easily discouraged. I'm not quite sure how to deal with that scenario yet. Fortunately she won her first game in last night's junior comp, so she should be cock-a-hoop this morning when she wakes up.

I allow my youngest (6) to beat me. This isn't in competition or anything. I have no chess credibility at all and losses elsewhere seem more easily borne when she can look over and say "I always beat my Mum." We try and make them "learning" wins however. I don't tell her the moves but prompt her to look for unprotected pieces, simple forks and those checkmating patters she has mastered. I suspect it's not really her game at all but like many her age, she likes to be involved at school with what her Mum is doing.

I started that way with Kayleigh too but rapidly realised I was not allowing her to win, she was just winning anyway :(

antichrist
25-02-2005, 10:51 AM
I've had to play my son (aged 12) twice in the past couple of weeks. Managed to beat him both times. I am making the most of it now because he's clearly going to be a stronger player than me shortly. Last night he played a ~1550-rated adult and was a pawn ahead before blundering and losing late in the game.

He has beaten me a couple of times in casual games @ home. I've taken great pride in these events and made sure he knew I was pleased with him. I would no more "go easy" on him than he would on me, and if he was clearly winning in a serious game and offered me a draw I would probably refuse to accept on principle.

A bigger challenge will be my daughter (aged 8). She's a completely different personality and is easily discouraged. I'm not quite sure how to deal with that scenario yet. Fortunately she won her first game in last night's junior comp, so she should be cock-a-hoop this morning when she wakes up.

So you would not go easy on him, and you are about 20 years older! And he is your own blood! Ask his mother about this.

Kevin Bonham
26-02-2005, 03:25 AM
I think family battles add more to chess than they take away. Parent vs offspring battles where offspring is an upcoming junior who is closing on dad's ratings are especially entertaining.

However game-throwing is a problem sometimes - I remember one case of the tearaway leader of a junior event chucking a game to his brother to give the latter second place, a joke result because the skill difference between them was >600 points.

Spiny Norman
26-02-2005, 07:17 PM
So you would not go easy on him, and you are about 20 years older! And he is your own blood! Ask his mother about this.

Try 30 years older! Nah, he'll be alright. We analysed his game and discovered that he'd missed an opportunity to win a piece outright. I
l'll post it in one of the other threads.

He knows that stronger players are beatable. Doesn't need any encouragement from me! Besides, Mum doesn't know anything about chess, so she's not qualified to comment. ;)

antichrist
26-02-2005, 07:55 PM
Sorry Frosty,
I don't respect you in chess or in religious beliefs, but I still love ya!

Spiny Norman
27-02-2005, 07:12 AM
That's very generous of you AC! There may be hope for you yet. I can feel the luurve. :eh: Completely understand having no respect for me in terms of my beliefs (par for the course, not a problem) ... but not in respect of chess either? Come on now, why would that be? You really must stop this trolling.

- Perhaps you think I don't encourage my son (or other kids) in chess? Far from the truth if so. I have put in six months work to start a local club for him and other local kids to utilise. We had 15 juniors participating our 3rd week in. I've personally rung some of the parents and kids through the week to talk to them ... feedback was 100% positive.

- Maybe you're just dismissive of weaker players (which I am in comparison to you)? I can't do much about it if so. My brain capacity is constrained by my thick skull. ;) Perhaps we should play a correspondence game here? Frosty (JC's representative) vs the AntiChrist. If you win, you could declare victory over the evangelical church, the Vatican, et al! I hereby challenge you to a game (when you've finished the one with 'noidea').

- Perhaps you don't like our website? (www.croydonchess.com (http://www.croydonchess.com)). I could sack the webmaster, but he's such a great guy and puts in so much time that I couldn't bring myself to do it. Besides, I've worked on/around websites for a long time and I actually think he's done a great job.

- Or is it the fact that the clubrooms are provided to us by a church? Do you suspect proselytism? All those wonderful agnostics and atheists being led astray by those evil church people? Ah, they must be slipping those dodgy "religiosity pills" into the cappuccinos! :uhoh: Perhaps you'd better jump on a plane and come down here to Melbourne and save them! You'd be welcome to stay at my place to save $$$ if you're short of a quid.

- Ah .... I know what it is .... it absolutely positively has to be this: Not withstanding all the jibes and provocations in respect of my personal beliefs, I still think well of you .... that must really get up your nose. :lol:

antichrist
27-02-2005, 09:08 AM
I
- Perhaps you think I don't encourage my son (or other kids) in chess?

I just despise fathers who try really hard against their children, especially in comps, instead of throwing them some rating points to encourage them. I know of many fathers who stop playing chess once their children have beaten them. How pathetic.

- Maybe you're just dismissive of weaker players (which I am in comparison to you)? I can't do much about it if so. My brain capacity is constrained by my thick skull. ;) Perhaps we should play a correspondence game here? Frosty (JC's representative) vs the AntiChrist. If you win, you could declare victory over the evangelical church, the Vatican, et al! I hereby challenge you to a game (when you've finished the one with 'noidea').

I don't want to commit myself to another match. I am bursting to get outta this place once I have shaken off the last of the heavy cough. Because I don't smoke I usually shake them off quickly.


- Perhaps you don't like our website? (www.croydonchess.com (http://www.croydonchess.com)). I could sack the webmaster, but he's such a great guy and puts in so much time that I couldn't bring myself to do it. Besides, I've worked on/around websites for a long time and I actually think he's done a great job.

I seen it is somewhere near Dandelongs. I have an old friend down there who made a threesome on my wedding night -- but that is another story. I would like to see her again.

- Or is it the fact that the clubrooms are provided to us by a church? Do you suspect proselytism? All those wonderful agnostics and atheists being led astray by those evil church people? Ah, they must be slipping those dodgy "religiosity pills" into the cappuccinos! :uhoh: Perhaps you'd better jump on a plane and come down here to Melbourne and save them! You'd be welcome to stay at my place to save $$$ if you're short of a quid.

Thanks for the offer. I have been to Melb twice, I did not look around that much but it did not appeal to me. It did not seem spectacular like Sydney. So I only go there when I have to. I think in general it is better that I stay away from close proximity with Christians. I can manage to turn them off pretty effectively. Don't suffer fools gladly - sorry. LIke kegless.

- Ah .... I know what it is .... it absolutely positively has to be this: Not withstanding all the jibes and provocations in respect of my personal beliefs, I still think well of you .... that must really get up your nose. :lol:[/QUOTE]

I am a bit like Bill really, pretty insular. It is what the lovely females think that I care about. You are not my type.

Spiny Norman
27-02-2005, 03:36 PM
I just despise fathers who try really hard against their children, especially in comps, instead of throwing them some rating points to encourage them. I know of many fathers who stop playing chess once their children have beaten them. How pathetic.

We'll just disagree then on the first point. The world does nobody any favours. I teach my kids to stand on their own two feet and face things squarely. I encourage them to compete and to give things a go, even if at first they don't succeed.

My daughter (age: 8) had the guts to play in an open competition a week ago. She copped 5 losses. She survived. We discussed it afterwards and I gave her some tips. The next Thursday she won her first competitive game against another junior. She deserved that win because she'd learned to overcome some adversity along the way, and nobody had to throw her any points.

My son now regularly beats kids his age (and a bit older) so I have encouraged him to have a go at playing against adults just so that he can get some decent competition. He's been playing less than 6 months, but there's no need to throw him any points either ... he'll earn them.

He has beaten me twice already. I didn't have to throw those games. He won them fair and square. If he beat me again I'd be as pleased as punch. I'm still playing, so I guess I don't fit your mould ... that's because I am quite comfortable in my own skin and my self-esteem is not derived from my chess results nor from my children's chess results.

Spiny Norman
20-05-2005, 06:59 PM
So you would not go easy on him, and you are about 20 years older! And he is your own blood! Ask his mother about this.

Jared got his revenge last night. Crushed me less than 20 moves. No favours. No quarter asked and none given. He's co-leading the tournament with 2/2. I'm down near the bottom of the table with 0.5/2. When told last night upon our return from the club, his mother (the love of my life) started laughing and couldn't stop for about 5 minutes.

What about me I hear you ask? Go on, you may as well ask ... I spent a rather sleepless night pondering my humanity and advancing years. The ego has taken a battering, no doubt about it.

But you should note that I have repeatedly encouraged the lad over the past 24 hours, for being merciless and crushing me (not only on the board, but emotionally too). ;)

Just wait 6-12 months and I'll let him loose on you ...