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arosar
21-02-2005, 08:35 AM
No more paper scoresheets. Why not use PDAs? Could this be the alternative to DGT?

http://www.monroi.com/

AR

Ian Rout
21-02-2005, 08:47 AM
I don't see (on a quick scan) any price mentioned ...

Article 8.1 only says that recording shall be on the 'scoresheet' prescribed for the competition so it's probably not illegal for an organiser to prescribe a non-paper scoresheet unless there's some other rule which makes paper explicit.

However the organisers would have to supply them rather than players bring their own, in view of 8.3: The scoresheets are the property of the organisers of the event.

ursogr8
21-02-2005, 08:52 AM
No more paper scoresheets. Why not use PDAs? Could this be the alternative to DGT?

http://www.monroi.com/

AR

Given that the Arbiter 'owns' the scoresheet, it would be a nice side-benefit for him to take the (PDA) scoresheets home?

starter

Rincewind
21-02-2005, 09:11 AM
I don't see (on a quick scan) any price mentioned ...

Article 8.1 only says that recording shall be on the 'scoresheet' prescribed for the competition so it's probably not illegal for an organiser to prescribe a non-paper scoresheet unless there's some other rule which makes paper explicit.

However the organisers would have to supply them rather than players bring their own, in view of 8.3: The scoresheets are the property of the organisers of the event.

I think organisers would have to supply them or else the opportunity for cheating would be too great, wouldn't it?

Ian Rout
21-02-2005, 09:33 AM
I think organisers would have to supply them or else the opportunity for cheating would be too great, wouldn't it?
That too.

Even though they won't become standard for recording for some time, they might be useful for players to enter their game immediately after playing it to fill in the time and keep their personal database up to date.

They might also be used by arbiters to record moves in a time scramble, if positions can be set up quickly.

Hugh_Brodie
01-04-2005, 08:51 AM
The "MonRoi device" was tested out in a FIDE-rated round-robin event in Montreal (Canada) in January. From a spectator's point of view, there were problems. Ideally, there should have been one screen displaying the position for each board - instead there were only two. If a player entered an illegal move on the device, the board image did not update (on the screens at the tournament, and on the Web site) - until it was corrected by the player or a programmer.

Most players found it relatively easy to use, but they had paper scoresheets as backup (especially during time scrambles).

The company has government funding behind it, so they have to have something to show for it. The device needs improvements (and I don't think it's on the market yet, so no price is shown on the web page) - but I think the DGT sensory boards are a class above it.

auriga
01-04-2005, 01:40 PM
The "MonRoi device" was tested out in a FIDE-rated round-robin event in Montreal (Canada) in January. From a spectator's point of view, there were problems. Ideally, there should have been one screen displaying the position for each board - instead there were only two. If a player entered an illegal move on the device, the board image did not update (on the screens at the tournament, and on the Web site) - until it was corrected by the player or a programmer.

Most players found it relatively easy to use, but they had paper scoresheets as backup (especially during time scrambles).

The company has government funding behind it, so they have to have something to show for it. The device needs improvements (and I don't think it's on the market yet, so no price is shown on the web page) - but I think the DGT sensory boards are a class above it.

i saw a demonstration by the lady from monroi (i got impression they were based in montreal or quebec city) last year.

looked very impressive to me.
but had feeling it was a logistical nightmare for the organisers.
ie. getting GMs/IMs to key in using the mini-pocket pc's would be tricky!
all connecting via wireless to the central server.
and then outputting to games database and web, tv screens, etc.

still, looked like way to go for the big tournaments (corus, olympiad, etc.)

billross
04-07-2008, 07:51 PM
I watched people use these at the recent Gold Coast Open. It seemed a lot quicker than writing moves. It would be very useful to me as I make lots of errors in recording games. Hopefully a cheaper price can be negotiated here.

Southpaw Jim
04-07-2008, 08:09 PM
I think organisers would have to supply them or else the opportunity for cheating would be too great, wouldn't it?
AFAIK they're a closed system, not like a PDA where you can install software - hence to cheat with them you'd have to hack the firmware. AFAIK (i.e. I could have this very wrong).

billross
04-07-2008, 08:12 PM
AFAIK they're a closed system, not like a PDA where you can install software - hence to cheat with them you'd have to hack the firmware. AFAIK (i.e. I could have this very wrong).
Apparently while they are in record mode, it is not possible to access the database facility. The arbiter can see whats going via the hubs radio connection with the device - so no cheating!!

Southpaw Jim
04-07-2008, 08:17 PM
Yes, that sounds familiar now. Obviously they'd need this level of security to persuade titled players to use them...

AlexDavies
05-07-2008, 02:12 PM
I don't see (on a quick scan) any price mentioned ...

MonRoi devices were used on the top boards in the 2007 Canadian Open here in Ottawa. However, usage was optional, so occasionally some of the important games weren't broadcast live. I only reached the top boards a few times, and I didn't feel like using it for the first time in a big game, so I just used a scoresheet. I think you had to pay a fairly steep rental fee if you were on a lower board and wanted to use one.

One of the players who always seemed to use a MonRoi device even when he wasn't on the top boards was Michael Barron (of Toronto, not Melbourne!). I am not certain, but I think it was possible to buy the devices, so I suspect Mr. Barron may have been an owner (which would be much cheaper than renting repeatedly).

CameronD
05-07-2008, 02:34 PM
Apparently while they are in record mode, it is not possible to access the database facility. The arbiter can see whats going via the hubs radio connection with the device - so no cheating!!


Great.

Instead of toiletgate, there will be arbitergate.

Technology makes it easier to cheat than ever. Pen and paper is the safest and best.

Kings of chess
07-07-2008, 07:25 PM
Great.

Instead of toiletgate, there will be arbitergate.

Technology makes it easier to cheat than ever. Pen and paper is the safest and best.

You saying that as you did not try one. I will give you one at Surfers Paradise Open. It is much easier than paper and pen.
FM Gene Nakauchi, Alex Stahnke and other kids love to use them.They coming to ask me if their game could be recorded.
Even if you staff up with move you can reverse the move. If is anything wrong with PCM you can calibrate it during the game and works fine.

Kings of chess
07-07-2008, 07:35 PM
The "MonRoi device" was tested out in a FIDE-rated round-robin event in Montreal (Canada) in January. From a spectator's point of view, there were problems. Ideally, there should have been one screen displaying the position for each board - instead there were only two. If a player entered an illegal move on the device, the board image did not update (on the screens at the tournament, and on the Web site) - until it was corrected by the player or a programmer.

Most players found it relatively easy to use, but they had paper scoresheets as backup (especially during time scrambles).

The company has government funding behind it, so they have to have something to show for it. The device needs improvements (and I don't think it's on the market yet, so no price is shown on the web page) - but I think the DGT sensory boards are a class above it.

Price for 1 PCM (Personal chess Manager) including accessories at the moment is around $499.00 inclusive of GST in Australia, if someone would like to get one please let me know.
Organisers must have PTM(Personal tournament Manager) and licence for games broadcasting, but player not.
If you own one your game can be transmitted live at any tournament with Monroi live games.

Garvinator
07-07-2008, 07:56 PM
Time to cut to the chase.

In Australia, we currently have 10/15 dgt boards floating around Australia in various conditions. Some work well, some not so well.

They are 'hugely expensive', roughly $15,000 (at a rough guesstimate) and are very difficult to transport and very technical to get operational. As well as very finicky.


So, cutting to the chase for monroi. If an organiser in Australia wanted to show every game from a 30 player tournament (lets say each game of the Aus Championship).

What are the technical hurdles to overcome. I have looked quite a few times at the monroi site and was not able to work these figures out for myself?

billross
08-07-2008, 10:35 PM
I have looked quite a few times at the monroi site and was not able to work these figures out for myself?
30 x $400 = $12000 plus hub @$500 approx = $12,500
It looks as though a few people own them already therefore probably less.
Presumably even less if a bulk discount is negotiated with Monroi?

Hugh_Brodie
09-07-2008, 03:41 AM
The DGT board sells for about $700. The Monroi device has been around for 3-4 years, and is still selling in the $350-and-up range. The only way it will capture a good market share is if it's priced in the under-$100 range - otherwise, people will stick with scoresheets.

Here, in Montreal (the home of the device), I have seen less than half a dozen privately-owned Monrois. A local club has 3 or 4 of them, and Monroi provides them occasionally (a dozen or so) to tournaments here free of charge (or to individuals for a small rental fee - i.e. $10 for the duration of a tournament).

Improvements are being made - both on the device and the Web page - but price is still the big problem.

Kings of chess
09-07-2008, 09:23 AM
30 x $400 = $12000 plus hub @$500 approx = $12,500
It looks as though a few people own them already therefore probably less.
Presumably even less if a bulk discount is negotiated with Monroi?


You need only 1 PCM per table for live games broadcasting what 15X$400=$6000

Kings of chess
09-07-2008, 09:24 AM
The DGT board sells for about $700. The Monroi device has been around for 3-4 years, and is still selling in the $350-and-up range. The only way it will capture a good market share is if it's priced in the under-$100 range - otherwise, people will stick with scoresheets.

Here, in Montreal (the home of the device), I have seen less than half a dozen privately-owned Monrois. A local club has 3 or 4 of them, and Monroi provides them occasionally (a dozen or so) to tournaments here free of charge (or to individuals for a small rental fee - i.e. $10 for the duration of a tournament).

Improvements are being made - both on the device and the Web page - but price is still the big problem.You obviously talking about US Money Valute

We did have problem with the Hub but now is everything OK. Monroi did respond fast to resolve the problem and sent us the replacement soon after Hub has been diagnosed as faulty. As I know something about the electronic, it is important for Australian users to get converter from 240 Volts down to 120 Volts in order to keep Hub stabile.