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Trent Parker
24-01-2005, 12:30 AM
Wellthank you Don Harrison. This comment shows me that you are not willing to support Australian chess in any case. Join a club, play in a tournament....

:hand: :hand: :hand:


I'm sure Don will feel really encouraged to join a club and play in a tournament now ... :eek:

There's nothing wrong with "just playing socially". There's also nothing wrong if people prefer just to watch others play, or to read books about chess. I don't think he should be accused of not being willing to support Australian chess just because of that.

Maybe we should ask him WHY he chooses not to play at a club or in a tournament. I think we'd probably all learn a lot from that.

Don ... do you want to share that info? I, for one, would like to know and would consider the information valuable.


Now apologise to Mr Harrison.

I admit i was maybe... probably... definitely a bit harsh there..... :uhoh: I offer a belated appology Mr Harrison. I for one would like to see your views in this forum..... the more the merrier.


..........

In associations I have been involved with over the years, the idea of the committee and organisational structure is to encourage and foster participation in an all inclusive way. The big-stick approach normally has the opposite effect and for good reason; people hate, without having been asked, to be told to lump it or leave it.

There are I admit, some oddies with chess. First the structure is, as far as I can see, voluntary. That generally leads to ordinary members of the organisation viewing issues on a mutual society basis. A nice friendly clubby atmosphere.

.........

By the way, I play chess on a social basis because I enjoy the game and I find it interesting. I didn't know that it was obligatory or mandatory to be obsessive about it.



I am wondering whether clubs in australia are too competition based... or has an image of being for competitive players only.

My local club is Campbelltown collegians Chess club which takes place at Campbelltown Catholic Club on Monday nights. Yes we have little tournaments going throughout the year.... but we go there for fun not for a competitive tournament. If a person wins the tournament at the end of the year they get a book prize. To us it is a social event. Well.... of course we do have our Fisher's Ghost tournament that goes for 7 weeks... but we still sometimes have people coming for social games. Membership to Campbelltown Collegians Chess Club is $10 a year.... which visitors do not have to pay. Our tournaments have no entry fee (except for fishers ghost).

Contrast:

A number of Melbourne clubs seem to charge a seemingly high rate for their membership.... and then you have to pay for the tournaments on top of the membership fee. I'm sure that some people will correct me here but this seems not to support a "social" atmosphere. Do people play socially at these clubs? do they have to pay to play socially at these clubs?

I think that clubs should foster a social atmosphere as well as the option of playing competitive chess.

I see a number of people playing chess in Macquarie St in Liverpool and in Hyde Park in Sydney..... and i'd hazard a guess that alot of them are not members of a chess club. But I think it would be good if every chess player, good, bad, old, young, etc.. would join a chess club... even if the chess club was set up purely for social play. (I know i'm dreamin')

Would it not show an indication of how big the sport of chess is? Wouldn't it put more weight behind our claim to being a sport if we could show numbers to the government as to how many play the sport?

Anyhow its late and i've blabbered on long enough at the moment....

ursogr8
24-01-2005, 11:44 AM
^^
hi TCN

Is your $10 in addition to the $8 to join the Cambelltown Catholic Club (34,000 members)?

How much of your $10/chess_member went to pay for the hosting of http://cathclub.com.au/general/internal.html
?
How much of your $10/chess_member went to pay for the full-time receptionist at the Club?

Does your chess Club use the ACF recommended insurance cover? And pay for it?

What % of your members are supporting the NSWCA through personal membership?
What % of your free casual_social 'members' are supporting the NSWCA through personal membership?


Just checking to see if we are comparing apples with apples.

regards
starter



ps Do you pay rent at the Club?

Garvinator
24-01-2005, 12:00 PM
I am wondering whether clubs in australia are too competition based... or has an image of being for competitive players only.

this is an interesting point. Our club only has about 30 members. Since I have been there (last couple of years) there have been social nights scheduled into the calendar, usually after one tournament finishes and another begins. These social nights have not been popular at all.
Late last year we noticed it was possible to run another tournament at the end of the year. So we gave the members an option, stay with the social nights or run another tournament. Only 2 out of the 20 or so who replied to the question said they wanted the social nights to stay. Everyone else wanted another tournament.

I thought that was interesting.

Yes there could be a bias, which is that the ppl who play there play there because of the high number of competition nights, so the survey might have an inbuilt flaw when using the ratio as a tool for comparing to other clubs and this discussion.

The_Wise_Man
24-01-2005, 12:32 PM
Late last year, St George adopted a more casual chess approach, with a poster (see attachment) that was placed in the neighbouring libraries, TAFE, and Gloria Jeans notice board...

We currently have just under 40 members playing in the tournament and 4-5 playing casual chess every week.

I am a big supporter of the casual base at the club and it is better that they practice and observe the club tournaments, making the transition when they feel comfortable. This also builds up their confidence before they enter a tournament, giving them a better chance of not totally going amiss in their first tournament and then giving up all together.... Also when you walk into a club that has tournaments running what do you do for the first 2-2.5 hours whilst tournament games are running and you want to play a game. We at St George are currently working through the ideas for marketing the club in 2005... I will let you know how we go on the "social experiment"

Wise

firegoat7
24-01-2005, 12:39 PM
Just for the record,

At MCC we charge $150 a year for working, $100 for concession and $50 for juniors. This seems pretty reasonable if you consider that the chessclub is self sufficient, ie without any government or corporate funding. And is open basically 7 days a week.

We have a number of members who never play tournament chess at MCC, (this has often been a contested issues with previous CV Treasurers- see old posts for details). I think that if people are willing to pay a membership without playing tournaments, then that is a reasonable sign that chess clubs are also social organisations.

If there is one thing that really annoys me its that stupid arguement about chessplayers being obsessive. It is a pretty ordinary stereotype that appears to be usually perpetuated by people who understand little about the language of the game. Take a close look at the average club player and you will almost certainly see that they are just normal people.

I generally feel that what happens with newcomers when they judge the interactions between chessplayers, is that they become alienated because they cannot understand the language. Often they feel left out in conversation because they are simply unable to understand "I sacked the bishop on g7- but I missed the intermezzo on e5".

Imagine listening to people speaking say French or German and then saying to them "Jeeez you foreigners are pretty obsessive about your language". Most normal people would simply not say such a thing, would they?

On the other hand, Often chessplayers do leave non-chessplayers out of their conversations. I have done this in the past and have become more concious of it as I get older (now its more lets not talk chess- lets talk about books or films). But this tends to only happen when you hang around chessplayers in groups, so whats the big deal. Some people like to talk about politics,religion, football or money, others chess. Its just that some languages are more inclusive, ie football you don't have to actually understand the terminology like (torpedo, drop kick, goal) etc to be able to communicate ideas about it.

The cliche "chessplayers are an obsessive lot" deserves little respect. I suggest chessplayers roll their eyes and make the comment ,under their breath, with a smile "Take a closer look in the mirror at your own little rituals before judging the nature of someone elses"

Cheers FG7

Rincewind
24-01-2005, 01:07 PM
Late last year, St George adopted a more casual chess approach, with a poster (see attachment) that was placed in the neighbouring libraries, TAFE, and Gloria Jeans notice board...

Did anyone point out the following grammatical issue with the poster?

"Why not join us for a game!"

Surely there should should be a question mark there somewhere either in place of or next to the esclamation point.

Apart from that sounds like a great initiative. Getting cheap marketing exposure always seems to be a problem though.

Trent Parker
25-01-2005, 01:41 PM
^^
hi TCN

Is your $10 in addition to the $8 to join the Cambelltown Catholic Club (34,000 members)?
Omg I didn't disclose everything! the total cost is $18 because you have to be a member of Cath club to join the Chess club.... Hmm Not sure about juniors though...... might be something for investigation.


How much of your $10/chess_member went to pay for the hosting of http://cathclub.com.au/general/internal.html ?
$0 as far as i know.


How much of your $10/chess_member went to pay for the full-time receptionist at the Club? 0 as far as i know


Does your chess Club use the ACF recommended insurance cover? And pay for it? As far as i know we come under the cathclub insurance. $0 as far as i know.


What % of your members are supporting the NSWCA through personal membership? hmmm lemme see......I'll get back to you on these stats..... considering we are only a relatively small club .. or maybe medium and considering we have grade match teams and considering there are others that play in NSWCA events..... i'd say most of them.


What % of your free casual_social 'members' are supporting the NSWCA through personal membership?

Well, sorry i might have been deceptive... if they come more than say a couple of times then we ask them to pay the $10 fee.

But, also we do not force our members to join the NSWCA.



Just checking to see if we are comparing apples with apples.
Ok lets view it from a cost to the participant basis.

Club: Campbelltown Collegians Chess Club
Membership Cost: 10
CCC membership: 8
NSWCA membership: 25
(assuming we force
everyone to join)

Total 43



ps Do you pay rent at the Club? No.

Perhaps more melbourne clubs (or other clubs who are trying to attract the "social player") should be "sub clubs" of other different types of clubs.

Or you could look at the Cath club as a Sponsor... find your club a sponsor perhaps?

ursogr8
25-01-2005, 03:43 PM
Omg I didn't disclose everything! the total cost is $18 because you have to be a member of Cath club to join the Chess club.... Hmm Not sure about juniors though...... might be something for investigation.


<snip>


hi TCN

So if we look at the metrics so far

Cambelltown gets free rent, free receptionist, & free insurance. It gives away its product(or minimal charge) to people who do not support the NSWCA. And you attract about 40.

MCC worked hard to finance a building, pays insurance, supports CV. And attracts about 80 members.

BHCC pays $5,500 annual rent; computer hosting $1000; $3,600 pa to CV and $8000 in prizes to local events. We attract 200+ members.

Can I suggest with more members you could be a lot more 'social'.

Btw, how many junior members did you have in the AUS. Junior?

regards
starter

pax
25-01-2005, 04:15 PM
Perhaps more melbourne clubs (or other clubs who are trying to attract the "social player") should be "sub clubs" of other different types of clubs.

Or you could look at the Cath club as a Sponsor... find your club a sponsor perhaps?

This model of chess club only works in places where the massive gambling revenues of clubs can be used to subsidise activities like chess. Anywhere else, there are a) far far fewer clubs of the type you describe, and b) such clubs don't have anywhere near the same amount of cash to throw around supporting chess.

I believe that Victoria has (or had) much greater restrictions on the proliferation of poker machines than NSW, and consequently a much smaller club scene.