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View Full Version : Right and Wrong without a god



Scott Colliver
03-03-2020, 07:20 PM
How do you decide what is right or wrong without the apparent authority of a god to make the decision?

Patrick Byrom
03-03-2020, 07:58 PM
How do you decide what is right or wrong without the apparent authority of a god to make the decision?That is a question that philosophers and theologians have argued about for millennia, so I'm not sure that Chess Chat is the best place to find answers. It would be better to read their opinions. Although perhaps you should start with an introductory work.

I would just point out, however, that believing in a god doesn't solve the problem of determining right and wrong. Believers in the Christian God, for example, presumably all believe in the same god. Yet they have expressed many contradictory views on what that god supposedly wants us to do.

Gnostic Bishop
20-03-2020, 06:06 AM
That is a question that philosophers and theologians have argued about for millennia, so I'm not sure that Chess Chat is the best place to find answers. It would be better to read their opinions. Although perhaps you should start with an introductory work.

I would just point out, however, that believing in a god doesn't solve the problem of determining right and wrong. Believers in the Christian God, for example, presumably all believe in the same god. Yet they have expressed many contradictory views on what that god supposedly wants us to do.

True, and one has to wonder just whose moral teachings Christians are following, given that they idol worship a genocidal and infanticidal Yahweh.

I think Goths are kind of funny, but this one may be onto something. Let me know if you agree.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNcRXeCzpno

Regards
DL

Gnostic Bishop
20-03-2020, 06:14 AM
How do you decide what is right or wrong without the apparent authority of a god to make the decision?

Depending on how you read the bible, it seems that Jesus wanted to get rid of the written letter of the law and wanted us to just go with our feelings and to let love guide us.

He was both right and wrong on this IMO.

Right in the sense that we should follow our feelings as expressed by our instincts, but wrong because at some point in time, our instincts to default to cooperate with everyone, changes in those that want to compete and try to show themselves a the fittest.

Most choose not to compete and that is why all are called but few hear it.

Here is the instincts from our selfish gene we follow.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LIb22-5Lwg

Regards
DL

Desmond
20-03-2020, 01:28 PM
How do you decide what is right or wrong without the apparent authority of a god to make the decision?

I leave it to philosoper Rust Cohle:
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward then, brother, that person is a..." [watch for yourself]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RfUj09pWfM

Scott Colliver
20-03-2020, 08:37 PM
Rust Cohle makes plenty of sense.

Gnostic Bishop
21-03-2020, 01:27 AM
I leave it to philosoper Rust Cohle:
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward then, brother, that person is a..." [watch for yourself]


A good find.

Regards
DL

Desmond
21-03-2020, 07:43 AM
A good find.

Regards
DL

It's from True Detective (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2356777/), season 1. I'd highly recommend it.

Patrick Byrom
21-03-2020, 10:54 AM
It's from True Detective (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2356777/), season 1. I'd highly recommend it.I haven't seen it, unfortunately, although it's one of the many shows that I intend to watch someday.

For a general discussion of moral philosophy, The Good Place (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Good_Place) is excellent. In one of the seasons, the main characters are told that they will go to the Bad Place (ie, hell) when they die, whatever they do. So they decide that they will continue to behave morally, even though there is no possibility of reward in the afterlife.

Gnostic Bishop
21-03-2020, 10:50 PM
It's from True Detective (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2356777/), season 1. I'd highly recommend it.

I will check it out for other decent views.

I don't know dis not comment onn post 4 in terms of us having instincts.

I either shot his view down or he did not believe the research that shows we have no need of a god to know good and evil.

Care to comment on the baby research?

I don't know, like most religious people, might be a moral coward who fears saying anything negative against the vile gods on our menu.

Regards
DL

Scott Colliver
22-03-2020, 06:19 AM
I am a recently ex-religious person.

Gods have to exist to be vile

Gnostic Bishop
22-03-2020, 06:31 AM
I am a recently ex-religious person.

Gods have to exist to be vile

Smile.

If you are ex, you are ex for a reason, and I hope it was because you recognized that a genocidal god id quite vile.

I do not think he exists either, but the way Christians and Muslims adore a genocidal satanic god whose religions do a lot of damage to many, all moral people will vilify those satanic gods whenever they can.

No?

Insert gays and women harmed by homophobic and misogynous religions to this quote. You should get an idea of what you should be doing with the homophobic and misogynous mainstream religions if you live by the golden rule.

Please get back to me with your conclusion.

Martin Niemöller
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

With that out of the way. What did you think of the notion that morals are hard wired into our DNA?

Regards
DL

Desmond
22-03-2020, 08:31 AM
I will check it out for other decent views.

I don't know dis not comment onn post 4 in terms of us having instincts.

I either shot his view down or he did not believe the research that shows we have no need of a god to know good and evil.

Care to comment on the baby research?

I don't know, like most religious people, might be a moral coward who fears saying anything negative against the vile gods on our menu.

Regards
DL

Interesting experiments with the puppets.

I think that it's always hard to demonstrate the tabula rasa proposition, one way or the other. Even here, with babies 3 months or 5 months old, they've had up to a year of potential influence if you count time in the womb.

Also how do you account for the potential difference in motivation between - A) the baby chooses the good doll because it's good, and B) the baby chooses the good doll because it's advantageus for him/her to have the good doll on his/her side?

Scott Colliver
22-03-2020, 05:29 PM
My name is I don't know because I don't know anything. I am too stupid to know anything.
I don't know if morals are hard wired into our DNA
I don't know anything about the babies

It is all beyond me, I KNOW NOTHING.

b.nancarrow
22-03-2020, 09:07 PM
my name is i don't know because i don't know anything. I am too stupid to know anything.
I don't know if morals are hard wired into our dna
i don't know anything about the babies

it is all beyond me, i know nothing.

lol

ElevatorEscapee
22-03-2020, 09:21 PM
My name is I don't know because I don't know anything. I am too stupid to know anything.
I don't know if morals are hard wired into our DNA
I don't know anything about the babies

It is all beyond me, I KNOW NOTHING.

To believe in organised religion or not to believe in organised religion, it's a gamble, whichever way you look at it. ;)

Gnostic Bishop
23-03-2020, 01:08 AM
Interesting experiments with the puppets.

I think that it's always hard to demonstrate the tabula rasa proposition, one way or the other. Even here, with babies 3 months or 5 months old, they've had up to a year of potential influence if you count time in the womb.

I know of no experiment that shows an unborn zygote, embryo or baby as thinking before it is actually born. Because of that lack of evidence, I will not agree with your notion. After the birth, yes, all input into it's mind would likely influence it.

The baby, more than likely, would see it's cries being rewarded by it's mother cooperating by feeding it.

The first thing it would learn is that cooperation is good as opposed to competition.



Also how do you account for the potential difference in motivation between - A) the baby chooses the good doll because it's good, and B) the baby chooses the good doll because it's advantageous for him/her to have the good doll on his/her side?

Humans are the weakest and most insecure animal on the planet. We are totally dependent on others to insure that we can survive for the first few years of our existence.

We are tribal by nature and will default to cooperation with other tribe members as that insures acceptance into the tribe and enhances our chances of survival.

We must default to cooperation with those that will care for us or we will die. We, so to speak, will not bite the hand that feeds us.

Regards
DL

Desmond
23-03-2020, 07:45 AM
I know of no experiment that shows an unborn zygote, embryo or baby as thinking before it is actually born. Because of that lack of evidence, I will not agree with your notion. After the birth, yes, all input into it's mind would likely influence it.Certainly an unborn fetus responds to sounds, for example.


The first thing it would learn is that cooperation is good as opposed to competition.
Yes but surely the question is whether cooperation=good is hardwired or not before that. It would not surprise me if it is, but I don't know how it could be proved.


Humans are the weakest and most insecure animal on the planet. We are totally dependent on others to insure that we can survive for the first few years of our existence.

We are tribal by nature and will default to cooperation with other tribe members as that insures acceptance into the tribe and enhances our chances of survival.

We must default to cooperation with those that will care for us or we will die. We, so to speak, will not bite the hand that feeds us.

Regards
DL
Agree

Gnostic Bishop
23-03-2020, 11:33 PM
To believe in organised religion or not to believe in organised religion, it's a gamble, whichever way you look at it. ;)

Compare how you see it and I see it and tell where you land.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Bishop
23-03-2020, 11:37 PM
My name is I don't know because I don't know anything. I am too stupid to know anything.
I don't know if morals are hard wired into our DNA
I don't know anything about the babies

It is all beyond me, I KNOW NOTHING.

Get away from the right and you will learn much.

Not being for or against a proposition is a good way to start looking at an issue, I compliment you.

To not land on a side shows the lack of thinking ability though. All that happens if you sit on the fence is that you get a picket up your ----

Regards
DL

Gnostic Bishop
23-03-2020, 11:46 PM
Certainly an unborn fetus responds to sounds, for example.

Does it though?

It is plugged into the mother and her reaction being passed to all her parts is more likely to be what is observed.

IDK but that seems more likely.



Yes but surely the question is whether cooperation=good is hardwired or not before that. It would not surprise me if it is, but I don't know how it could be proved.

Other animals seem to have it hardwired. We know that even your kangaroo fetuses know enough to seek the tit and cooperate with it when they find it.

That is the selfish gene wishing to survive and that is the same gene that science says motivates us to default to cooperation.


Agree

Nice. Thanks.

Regards
DL

antichrist
26-03-2020, 08:56 PM
To believe in organised religion or not to believe in organised religion, it's a gamble, whichever way you look at it. ;)

Yes Mr Pascel - would you like a wager on that?