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ER
19-01-2020, 06:29 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/christians-banned-western-australian-community-takes-radical-step-to-stop-god-botherers-from-trying-to-convert-them-to-christianity/ar-BBZ6jeo?ocid=spartanntp

Is that religious racism or isn't?
Suppose a Christian community, bans dream time rituals!
Would that be religious racism or wouldn't it?

antichrist
19-01-2020, 06:50 PM
In Byron one such born again was very persistent in attempting to convert the local aborigines even though warned many times. It wasn't pretty. You must admit the dream time stories are more interesting than stars being holes in the floor of heaven

Patrick Byrom
19-01-2020, 08:39 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/christians-banned-western-australian-community-takes-radical-step-to-stop-god-botherers-from-trying-to-convert-them-to-christianity/ar-BBZ6jeo?ocid=spartanntp
Is that religious racism or isn't? Suppose a Christian community, bans dream time rituals! Would that be religious racism or wouldn't it?I don't see the problem - it's no different to closing the door on Jehovah's Witnesses. From the link:
" 'Aboriginal communities should be able to say who comes on their land,' Mr Byrne told The Western Australian. 'They can say 'please do not come onto our land, we do not want you there'. That's not a ground (for discrimination) under the act. "

MichaelBaron
19-01-2020, 09:19 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/christians-banned-western-australian-community-takes-radical-step-to-stop-god-botherers-from-trying-to-convert-them-to-christianity/ar-BBZ6jeo?ocid=spartanntp

Is that religious racism or isn't?
Suppose a Christian community, bans dream time rituals!
Would that be religious racism or wouldn't it?

Aboriginal Communities may get away...lets see what happens~ This is indeed religious racism.

MichaelBaron
19-01-2020, 09:20 PM
I don't see the problem - it's no different to closing the door on Jehovah's Witnesses. From the link:
" 'Aboriginal communities should be able to say who comes on their land,' Mr Byrne told The Western Australian. 'They can say 'please do not come onto our land, we do not want you there'. That's not a ground (for discrimination) under the act. "

Aborigional communities should be able to say who comes to their land....What about Non Aboriginal community...Shall I be able to say who comes to City of Caulfield where I live? Is it ligit for a city council to make such a decision?
I would also like to emphasise the following claim that the article is making:

''boriginal elders in a remote Western Australian community want to ban Christians from visiting their region. '' So it is NOT about practices and rituals it is about BANNING from visiting THEIR region...

Kevin Bonham
19-01-2020, 09:24 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/christians-banned-western-australian-community-takes-radical-step-to-stop-god-botherers-from-trying-to-convert-them-to-christianity/ar-BBZ6jeo?ocid=spartanntp

Is that religious racism or isn't?

It's a deeply stupid headline typical of the pathetic standards of the woeful Daily Mail. It wasn't banned from Wikipedia for nothing.


Suppose a Christian community, bans dream time rituals!
Would that be religious racism or wouldn't it?

A Christian community has every right to ban whatever rituals it likes on land that it owns. According to the report the proposal is to ban Christian missionaries from Aboriginal land.

Ian Murray
19-01-2020, 09:26 PM
Aborigional communities should be able to say who comes to their land....What about Non Aboriginal community...Shall I be able to say who comes to City of Caulfield where I live? Is it ligit for a city council to make such a decision?

The City of Caulfield is not your land. Nor is it the council's.

MichaelBaron
19-01-2020, 09:37 PM
The City of Caulfield is not your land. Nor is it the council's.

So the entire village is their land...or if a Council can do it...Can City of Glen Eire Council do it? Really? :)

Kevin Bonham
19-01-2020, 09:56 PM
So the entire village is their land...or if a Council can do it...Can City of Glen Eire Council do it? Really? :)

I don't think you understood Ian's post. He was clearly implying a Council couldn't do it as it is not their land.

MichaelBaron
19-01-2020, 10:13 PM
I don't think you understood Ian's post. He was clearly implying a Council couldn't do it as it is not their land.

I did understand, so my question is, if they can not do it, how can it be done by the indigenous village? Can access to land be based on ones religion?

Patrick Byrom
19-01-2020, 10:20 PM
I did understand, so my question is, if they can not do it, how can it be done by the indigenous village? Can access to land be based on ones religion?Because they own the land, they can ban anyone they want. Just as you can ban Jehovah's Witnesses from your property if you wanted to. I don't see why this is so difficult for you to understand :(

Kevin Bonham
19-01-2020, 10:49 PM
I did understand, so my question is, if they can not do it, how can it be done by the indigenous village?

Aboriginal land is equivalent to private land. Someone wishing to enter requires permission.

antichrist
19-01-2020, 11:30 PM
Because they own the land, they can ban anyone they want. Just as you can ban Jehovah's Witnesses from your property if you wanted to. I don't see why this is so difficult for you to understand :(
Y
I don't think you can ban them from coming safely to your from door. I don't know what legal recognition signs may have. I don't know if court orders could be obtained etc.. I had a beautiful female one corralled in but when a ruddy Anglican priest came as well and distracted me she bolted. Heaven sent she was.

antichrist
19-01-2020, 11:35 PM
I did understand, so my question is, if they can not do it, how can it be done by the indigenous village? Can access to land be based on ones religion?

I could answer but I won't.

MichaelBaron
19-01-2020, 11:42 PM
Aboriginal land is equivalent to private land. Someone wishing to enter requires permission.

So entire village is private land? including the roads, council building? Would it be possible for any villages other than Aboriginal to have such control rights? So if private owners of the land on my street (and its a small street) decide to restrict access to the even 1 street alone....i doubt it would be possible.

Not to mention that access in this case is restricted on the basis of religion!

MichaelBaron
19-01-2020, 11:45 PM
I could answer but I won't.

How can it be done by indigenous while can not be done by not indigenous....do answer. The critical part of the question is ...can ALL DO IT AND GET AWAY WITH IT or only Indigenous...because restricting access based on one's religion is something I've encountered in some overseas countries....(you can guess what kind of countries) but Not in Australia....it is not only against our ''spirit'' but i believe it is not legal to do so.

antichrist
20-01-2020, 12:01 AM
Aborigional communities should be able to say who comes to their land....What about Non Aboriginal community...Shall I be able to say who comes to City of Caulfield where I live? Is it ligit for a city council to make such a decision?
I would also like to emphasise the following claim that the article is making:

''boriginal elders in a remote Western Australian community want to ban Christians from visiting their region. '' So it is NOT about practices and rituals it is about BANNING from visiting THEIR region...

Michael, one of the very few things I know about Melbourne is that Caulfield is where the race track is so I wouldn't imagine it to be too salubrious a suburb. Move up a notch mate. No wonder you are complaining about the riff raff hanging around.

Kevin Bonham
20-01-2020, 08:55 AM
So entire village is private land? including the roads, council building?

Who says there is a "council building"? It's a "remote Western Australian community"; why should it have a council building or even necessarily a council?


Would it be possible for any villages other than Aboriginal to have such control rights?

Yes, for instance a construction village owned by a mining company and located on that company's land.


Not to mention that access in this case is restricted on the basis of religion!

Just the owners of the land exercising their freedom as owners. Would have thought that was the kind of thing you'd be in favour of under all circumstances. Indeed if the missionaries come onto land they don't own, where they are not wanted, doesn't that make them trespassers fit for inclusion in your crime thread?

ER
20-01-2020, 09:04 AM
To make it clear, the "banning" as referred to in the original post applies to Christian missionaries attempting to proselytise and not to simple folk who visit native communities be they Christian
Muslim, Hindus or what have you. I stayed in aboriginal land and places while in NT a few days ago and none asked me what kind of religious dogma I belonged to or told me to piss off their land!

MichaelBaron
20-01-2020, 10:21 AM
Who says there is a "council building"? It's a "remote Western Australian community"; why should it have a council building or even necessarily a council?



Yes, for instance a construction village owned by a mining company and located on that company's land.



Just the owners of the land exercising their freedom as owners. Would have thought that was the kind of thing you'd be in favour of under all circumstances. Indeed if the missionaries come onto land they don't own, where they are not wanted, doesn't that make them trespassers fit for inclusion in your crime thread?

I see a big difference between owning a ''mine'' and a ''village''. If one can own a ''village'' why not a ''town''? To me ''Village'' is not a private business enterprise. Secondly, I wonder if a private enterprise can grant access based on one's religion. Can Baron Consulting legally put a sign in front of our office'' Christians are not welcome/allowed?''. How about I put a sign '' Those following Indigenous Religions are not allowed to enter''? what will be the comments/responses? What will be the legal consequences?

Kevin Bonham
20-01-2020, 11:26 AM
I see a big difference between owning a ''mine'' and a ''village''. If one can own a ''village'' why not a ''town''? To me ''Village'' is not a private business enterprise.
Secondly, I wonder if a private enterprise can grant access based on one's religion. Can Baron Consulting legally put a sign in front of our office'' Christians are not welcome/allowed?''. How about I put a sign '' Those following Indigenous Religions are not allowed to enter''? what will be the comments/responses? What will be the legal consequences?

If a business wants to discriminate in who it will or won't do business with and has valid reason to do so it can apply for an exemption from applicable anti-discrimination laws (if there are any, which varies from state to state). This isn't about a business discriminating; this is about owners of Aboriginal land seeking to exclude missionaries from their land on the grounds that the missionaries are pests.

MichaelBaron
20-01-2020, 11:44 AM
If a business wants to discriminate in who it will or won't do business with and has valid reason to do so it can apply for an exemption from applicable anti-discrimination laws (if there are any, which varies from state to state). This isn't about a business discriminating; this is about owners of Aboriginal land seeking to exclude missionaries from their land on the grounds that the missionaries are pests.

So can I apply Exactly same grounds to exclude people belonging to a particular religion from my property? Can CROWN do it to their land? Can a privately owned mine do it?

Kevin Bonham
20-01-2020, 11:56 AM
So can I apply Exactly same grounds to exclude people belonging to a particular religion from my property?

If it's your private house and land then you can. You can put up a sign that says "no religious callers" (plenty of people do exactly this). But if it's a business and you are offering goods and services then that is affected by anti-discrimination law. In Victoria, these are areas in which discrimination without an exemption on the grounds of religion might be prohibited:


Not all acts of discrimination are unlawful under the EO Act. Unlawful acts of discrimination are only those that occur in certain areas of public life on the basis of a protected attribute. The areas in which unlawful discrimination is prohibited are:

•employment and contract work;

•employment-related areas (e.g. partnership or contract work);

•education;

•provision of goods and services;

•accommodation;

•clubs and club membership;

•sports;

•disposal of land and access to public premises;

•local government.

Within these areas of public life, there are specific types of conduct that are covered; these are outlined below.

source https://www.lawhandbook.org.au/2019_11_01_03_victorian_anti_discrimination_law/

But even if the Aboriginal village was covered by this law (which it is seeking to establish; apparently not) it is not clear that it would actually be discriminating on the basis of religion. Rather it seeks to exclude proselytising missionaries because they are annoying, not because of their specific religious views.

antichrist
20-01-2020, 12:03 PM
How can it be done by indigenous while can not be done by not indigenous....do answer. The critical part of the question is ...can ALL DO IT AND GET AWAY WITH IT or only Indigenous...because restricting access based on one's religion is something I've encountered in some overseas countries....(you can guess what kind of countries) but Not in Australia....it is not only against our ''spirit'' but i believe it is not legal to do so.

I was thinking of a country beginning with "I"??

Ian Murray
20-01-2020, 12:24 PM
So entire village is private land? including the roads, council building? Would it be possible for any villages other than Aboriginal to have such control rights? So if private owners of the land on my street (and its a small street) decide to restrict access to the even 1 street alone....i doubt it would be possible.

Not to mention that access in this case is restricted on the basis of religion!

Entire areas, such as Arnhem Land in NT, are aboriginal-owned. Entry is restricted to permit holders only (https://northernterritory.com/plan/useful-information/land-permits)

MichaelBaron
20-01-2020, 12:33 PM
If it's your private house and land then you can. You can put up a sign that says "no religious callers" (plenty of people do exactly this). But if it's a business and you are offering goods and services then that is affected by anti-discrimination law. In Victoria, these are areas in which discrimination without an exemption on the grounds of religion might be prohibited:


Not all acts of discrimination are unlawful under the EO Act. Unlawful acts of discrimination are only those that occur in certain areas of public life on the basis of a protected attribute. The areas in which unlawful discrimination is prohibited are:

•employment and contract work;

•employment-related areas (e.g. partnership or contract work);

•education;

•provision of goods and services;

•accommodation;

•clubs and club membership;

•sports;

•disposal of land and access to public premises;

•local government.

Within these areas of public life, there are specific types of conduct that are covered; these are outlined below.

source https://www.lawhandbook.org.au/2019_11_01_03_victorian_anti_discrimination_law/

But even if the Aboriginal village was covered by this law (which it is seeking to establish; apparently not) it is not clear that it would actually be discriminating on the basis of religion. Rather it seeks to exclude proselytising missionaries because they are annoying, not because of their specific religious views.

Thx, Kevin
Very comprehensive answers.
Just a couple of points: The article refers to a single religion (Christianity) that is not welcome. This alone appears to be discrimination
Also what would be ''public opinion'' if I would ban visitors who were following Indigenous religions/cults from my land? Can you visualize it happening? Also, the very concept of entire village being ''self-owned'' is one area where legalities are to be checked. What about houses in that village? Can I buy a house freely?

Patrick Byrom
20-01-2020, 12:43 PM
Just a couple of points: The article refers to a single religion (Christianity) that is not welcome. This alone appears to be discrimination
Also what would be ''public opinion'' if I would ban visitors who were following Indigenous religions/cults from my land? Can you visualize it happening? ... You're not thinking this through. How exactly can you tell that a person is Christian (or has Indigenous religious beliefs) if they don't preach?

Ian Murray
20-01-2020, 01:30 PM
Thx, Kevin
Very comprehensive answers.
Just a couple of points: The article refers to a single religion (Christianity) that is not welcome. This alone appears to be discrimination

Prosyletising missionaries are not welcome. There is no objection to other Christians (the majority of Territorians are Christian).


Also what would be ''public opinion'' if I would ban visitors who were following Indigenous religions/cults from my land? Can you visualize it happening?

It is your legal standing that matters, not public opinion


Also, the very concept of entire village being ''self-owned'' is one area where legalities are to be checked. What about houses in that village? Can I buy a house freely?

Arnhem Land, for example, is aboriginal land
4049 4050

Ownership is granted under one of the various native title provisions under federal and state laws.

Ian Murray
20-01-2020, 03:01 PM
I was thinking of a country beginning with "I"??

Italy? India? Iran? Ireland? Iceland?

antichrist
20-01-2020, 03:16 PM
Italy? India? Iran? Ireland? Iceland?

This one seemed to stun Michael - if he had the same blind spot in chess he would be hopeless.

Adamski
20-01-2020, 05:18 PM
Italy? India? Iran? Ireland? Iceland?Methinks AC meant his favorite country to refer to in any thread - Israel. (Palestine does not begin with I. Nor does USA.:))

MichaelBaron
20-01-2020, 06:13 PM
Prosyletising missionaries are not welcome. There is no objection to other Christians (the majority of Territorians are Christian).



It is your legal standing that matters, not public opinion



Arnhem Land, for example, is aboriginal land

Would you consider the entire situation as best evidence of having double standards for the Indigenous and non-Indigenous?
Not to mention that if i got there and claim to be Indigenous...the better accept that I am :).

antichrist
20-01-2020, 06:20 PM
Methinks AC meant his favorite country to refer to in any thread - Israel. (Palestine does not begin with I. Nor does USA.:))

I don't think USA and Palestine excludes other religions.

William AS
20-01-2020, 06:41 PM
ER should be very careful about quoting from the Daily Mail without making a close scrutiny of the real facts.
1. What has the religious group really been doing?
2. Were they banned because of their racist religious activities & criminal damage?
3. While this group may claim to be Christian, they are not.

ER
20-01-2020, 06:59 PM
[SIZE=2]ER should be very careful (…) hey Bill, how are ya, long time no see,
last time I was in Adelaide about a year ago and won my rating group (=1st) you didn't show up. George was there but
had no chance to talk to him! Oh back to the topic … check my intermezzo (with gain of tempo) post! :D #19 it was!

Ian Murray
20-01-2020, 08:24 PM
Would you consider the entire situation as best evidence of having double standards for the Indigenous and non-Indigenous?
Not to mention that if i got there and claim to be Indigenous...the better accept that I am :).

There is no double standard. You can restrict or deny access to your land (which of course was originally aboriginal land until seized by colonial settlers). Traditional owners can restrict or deny access to their land.

You would be hard pressed to prove that you are a traditional owner if you tried to pursue such a claim.

Patrick Byrom
21-01-2020, 03:28 PM
There is no double standard. You can restrict or deny access to your land (which of course was originally aboriginal land until seized by colonial settlers). Traditional owners can restrict or deny access to their land.I think Michael has finally grasped that landowners (Indigenous or not) have a perfect legal right to decide who enters their land, as he seems to have wandered off-topic :)

Kevin Bonham
25-01-2020, 04:19 PM
Posts moved

Posts about Bruce Pascoe (tangent, at best, started by Michael Baron) moved to a new thread in politics section. Some of the posts contain a small amount of comment that was on-topic for this thread.

Anyone wishing to discuss this thread split may do so in the Help and Feedback section only.