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Kevin Bonham
23-12-2004, 12:29 AM
I saw in one of the Mt Buller threads that Garvin was talking about a player who might be withdrawing from an event and saying they should contact George re a refund.

I'd be interested to know what standards other organisers apply to refunds for pre-event payments by players who later don't show. My general way of dealing with this issue is simple: no refunds unless organiser error or other unforseen circumstances relating to the tournament were involved, in which case refund in full. I have never refunded for a player who "couldn't make it", "had something else on", "wasn't well enough" etc. Another organiser I know will refund but only if the withdrawal is more than 7 days out.

Garvinator
23-12-2004, 12:33 AM
We have allowed refunds up until the closing dates for entries. This means we have refunded a couple of entries. After entries close, we will be loath to refund any entry fees, but we might refund dependant on the reason given.

JGB
23-12-2004, 12:51 AM
We have allowed refunds up until the closing dates for entries. This means we have refunded a couple of entries. After entries close, we will be loath to refund any entry fees, but we might refund dependant on the reason given.

Customer friendly policy. Is that really possible from a business point of view. What happens if, due to outside influences, 20 (or even more) people pull out?

Garvinator
23-12-2004, 09:19 AM
Customer friendly policy. Is that really possible from a business point of view. What happens if, due to outside influences, 20 (or even more) people pull out?
well the closing date has passed for the open, so no refunds without a damn good reason.

arosar
23-12-2004, 10:36 AM
well the closing date has passed for the open, so no refunds without a damn good reason.

gray, you really need to improve on your customer service and communication skills.

Your tone above is very hostile and unfriendly.

AR

Alan Shore
23-12-2004, 01:39 PM
gray, you really need to improve on your customer service and communication skills.

Your tone above is very hostile and unfriendly.

AR

I didn't think there was anything wrong with what Garvin said...

What I did think unreasonable is KB's Gestapo-style approach. I mean, what a bastard. If I have to go to hospital and can't attend, you won't refund my money? Likewise if there was a death in the family? Way, way too harsh. Even if someone is too ill to play, I certainly see that as a reasonable excuse.

arosar
23-12-2004, 01:43 PM
I didn't think there was anything wrong with what Garvin said...

You don't think that "no refunds without a damn good reason" is unfriendly and hostile? It sure sounds like a threat to me. Anyway, he's your mate ain't he?

I got nothin' against gray - never met the fella - but he's PR performance on the MtB thread is horrible.

AR

Kevin Bonham
24-12-2004, 07:38 PM
What I did think unreasonable is KB's Gestapo-style approach.

What I consider unreasonable is your gratuitous violation of the normative sense of Godwin's law. :hand:


I mean, what a bastard. If I have to go to hospital and can't attend, you won't refund my money? Likewise if there was a death in the family? Way, way too harsh. Even if someone is too ill to play, I certainly see that as a reasonable excuse.

Hmmm, neither of the first two circumstances have ever come up; maybe I would if the problem was really serious (and verifiable). I certainly don't give refunds for "had a cold", "felt bad after dinner" and stuff like that.

Refusal to give refunds after a certain date irrespective of personal circumstances is very common business practice.

Alan Shore
24-12-2004, 11:16 PM
What I consider unreasonable is your gratuitous violation of the normative sense of Godwin's law. :hand:

For bringing that up that useless bit of net-nonsense, would you like to be awarded the title of nerd, or perhaps of geek? Or perhaps you could supply me with an accurate distinction between the two? :rolleyes:


Hmmm, neither of the first two circumstances have ever come up; maybe I would if the problem was really serious (and verifiable). I certainly don't give refunds for "had a cold", "felt bad after dinner" and stuff like that.

I don't think 'had a cold' is what anyone would really say.. how about 'bedridden with the flu', or is that still a no-go in the Bonham books? For the record, I once played a tournament while quite ill but only because someone else was driving, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to make it. I'd be most upset if I was to notify the organiser before the start time and then being told 'too bad'. :hand:


Refusal to give refunds after a certain date irrespective of personal circumstances is very common business practice.

Newsflash: It's not a business, it's a chess tournament. There is no need for the excessive heavy-handedness and absolute intolerance. :confused:

WhiteElephant
26-12-2004, 01:14 PM
A no-refunds policy does not sound like very good business practice for several reasons:

1) Bad PR
2) Encourages people to leave their entries till the last minute which:

- makes it difficult for organisers to estimate the prospective number of players until the day of the tournament

- some of those who postpone their entries will simply decide not to play, whereas if they had entered earlier, it is highly unlikely they would ask for a refund.

W.E.

Spiny Norman
26-12-2004, 05:12 PM
A no-refunds policy does not sound like very good business practice for several reasons:

1) Bad PR
2) Encourages people to leave their entries till the last minute which:

- makes it difficult for organisers to estimate the prospective number of players until the day of the tournament

- some of those who postpone their entries will simply decide not to play, whereas if they had entered earlier, it is highly unlikely they would ask for a refund.

So ... what about a shandy ... up to 1 month before the start of the tournament a full refund, reducing by 10% per week thereafter (so if you withdraw in the last week you only get 60% of the entry fee back) .

I would guess that this would need to be well publicised on the entry forms. Exceptions could be made for cases of geniune hardship. Give a 20% discount to people who sign up 1 month before to incentivise the early entries perhaps?

Or another option ... give the person the alternative option of taking a credit instead of a reduced refund, allowing them to use it on the next tournament?

Both of these require additional administrative effort/skill, but a well organised team ought to be able to handle it?

Trent Parker
26-12-2004, 05:52 PM
Newsflash: It's not a business, it's a chess tournament.

Newsflash: it is a business. If a tournament continually runs at a loss all the time, the organisers are not going to run the tournament. The tournament has to try to break even . So yes it is a business and yes it is a chess tournament.

Alan Shore
26-12-2004, 07:21 PM
Newsflash: it is a business. If a tournament continually runs at a loss all the time, the organisers are not going to run the tournament. The tournament has to try to break even . So yes it is a business and yes it is a chess tournament.

You're only getting caught up in this TP because of your attachment to the Minor. Most tournaments are run at huge profits where I'm from and one refund will hardly break the bank. Think about a university exam. If you are ill, you may get a medical certificate that excuses your absence, or any other extenuating circumstance. If KB was an examiner and you were ill, it would be a case of 'Bad luck, you've failed, better luck next year'. Is that what you really want? Do you really think that's fair? Sorry if I disagree. :hand:

ursogr8
26-12-2004, 08:01 PM
Both of these require additional administrative effort/skill, but a well organised team ought to be able to handle it?

Your challenge, Steve, should you accept, is to run events that are so popular that the capacity of the venue means there are more potential entrants than seats in the playing arena. Then you can forget the money-back dilemma; it becomes no drawback to the organiser to give refunds; there is always some-one ready to step into the field, from the waiting list.
This is how successful I hope you make Croydon Chess Club.

starter

Trent Parker
27-12-2004, 12:46 AM
You're only getting caught up in this TP because of your attachment to the Minor.

Nyet! My comrade, Nyet Nyet Nyet.

I am looking at it from a commerce students point of view and possibly a NSWCA councillor's point of view.


Think about a university exam. If you are ill, you may get a medical certificate that excuses your absence, or any other extenuating circumstance.

For something like a flu.... No.
For something like being hospitalised due to a severe illness.... perhaps as long as the form is handed in at Most 48hrs after the exam.

Well that was the policy at my uni anyways.


If KB was an examiner and you were ill, it would be a case of 'Bad luck, you've failed, better luck next year'. Is that what you really want? Do you really think that's fair? Sorry if I disagree. :hand:

I think in some cases like the above... if there is a severe case of why you cannot make it then sure.... provide the refund.

I actually like the idea of credit rather than refunds. that way the person has to come back to use the refund for another tournament.

Spiny Norman
27-12-2004, 06:27 AM
This is how successful I hope you make Ringwood Chess Club.


errr ... Croydon :) ... but yes, you're right.

ursogr8
27-12-2004, 07:08 AM
errr ... Croydon :) ... but yes, you're right.

Steve

I have corrected my original post. (Maybe ahead of myself, but you could run two clubs eventually; both capped by the venue). ;)

starter

Spiny Norman
27-12-2004, 07:36 AM
I have corrected my original post. (Maybe ahead of myself, but you could run two clubs eventually; both capped by the venue). ;)

:eek: Perhaps I'd better just focus on getting the first one up and running successfully. :D Longer term:

Stage 1: Build a sustainable club at Croydon

Stage 2: Progressively and thoroughly document systems, key success factors, continue building relationships with stakeholders (e.g. our friends at other clubs, council, state, federal government, CV, ACF, etc)

Stage 3: More market research (e.g. trying to work out best locations for additional clubs, securing preliminary commitments for use of venues, looking at demographics, linkages between junior and adult chess, sharing information with other clubs, etc)

Stage 4: Replicate

But I imagine I will be working very hard on Stage 1 for a couple of years ...

Alan Shore
27-12-2004, 05:25 PM
Nyet! My comrade, Nyet Nyet Nyet.

I am looking at it from a commerce students point of view and possibly a NSWCA councillor's point of view.

If you say so but your references were quite specific. If you are looking as a councillor then you should be aware of keeping your clientele happy.

As for a commerce student's view well, we know how soulless corporate types can be, most of us know of Gordon Gecko from Wall Street.


For something like a flu.... No.
For something like being hospitalised due to a severe illness.... perhaps as long as the form is handed in at Most 48hrs after the exam.

Perhaps you underestimate the seriousness of flu. Flu can kill you, perhaps you should be more aware.


Well that was the policy at my uni anyways.

I doubt it, as your university isn't run by the Idi Amin regime. My university has a much less totalitarian attitude.. as long as you can provide a medical certificate from a GP or provide evidence of other extreme circumstances there is no problem.


I think in some cases like the above... if there is a severe case of why you cannot make it then sure.... provide the refund.

And in less extreme circumstances too. If you are too ill to play, then you're too ill to play, it is as simple as that.


I actually like the idea of credit rather than refunds. that way the person has to come back to use the refund for another tournament.

This is not good enough, for people may have to work etc. and not be able to attend. You will drive people away with this attitude. Please be more conscious of your tournament entrants rather than only looking at the financial angle. If people are happy with the way the tournament is run and with the organisers themselves, they'll enter again. Otherwise, you not only lose them, you get bad press.

Trent Parker
28-12-2004, 04:29 PM
Ok Bruce i'll give you this


I think in some cases like the above... if there is a severe case of why you cannot make it then sure.... provide the refund.

Perhaps i got a bit revved up here perhaps yes in some cases it is good to provide refunds.

What do you think about cancellation fees? Like hotels use if a person cancels a room? See there is other costs of money going in - out -in out etc etc. and the uncertainty factor. If you are unsure about whether you are going to be able to make it to the tournament Dont pay for the tournament

And What is wrong with a credit rather than paying out the refund?


Oh and BTW i wasn't even talking about refunds in my first reply to you. (i.e. "newsflash"). I was saying that a chess tournament is like a business.

Alan Shore
28-12-2004, 05:49 PM
Perhaps i got a bit revved up here perhaps yes in some cases it is good to provide refunds.

OK, good to hear.


What do you think about cancellation fees? Like hotels use if a person cancels a room? See there is other costs of money going in - out -in out etc etc. and the uncertainty factor. If you are unsure about whether you are going to be able to make it to the tournament Dont pay for the tournament

Maybe I won't play at all if I feel it's a gamble on my health. As W.E. already said, it encourages last-minute entries. With the KB policy there's no chance I would enter any earlier than the last possible moment.


And What is wrong with a credit rather than paying out the refund?

I already said, refer to my previous post. Also you can have events being cancelled, different organisers and more to add to the list of reasons.


Oh and BTW i wasn't even talking about refunds in my first reply to you. (i.e. "newsflash"). I was saying that a chess tournament is like a business.

First and foremost it should cater to the needs of its entrants. I'm actually getting quite disillusioned with the marketing puff and dare I say profit-making machines that chess tournaments have become in recent years.

Bill Gletsos
28-12-2004, 06:08 PM
I'm actually getting quite disillusioned with the marketing puff and dare I say profit-making machines that chess tournaments have become in recent years.
Are you actually sure they are making a profit and if so are you sure it isnt a fairly small profit as opposed to a large profit.

Many players just look at the income from entry fees and the payout in prize money. They ignore the other costs.

Lets keep it simple and assume all income comes from entry fees.
The costs for most events would therefore come from the following items:
Prizes
Rent (even if the organiser owns the venue he still has costs (electricity, water, council rates etc)
Arbiters fees
ACF Rating fees
FIDE rating fee if FIDE rated
GP fees if a GP event
Advertising

I assume your comments are referring to QLD events.
Can you provide an actual example to back up your claim.

Alan Shore
28-12-2004, 06:12 PM
Are you actually sure they are making a profit and if so are you sure it isnt a fairly small profit as opposed to a large profit.

Many players just look at the income from entry fees and the payout in prize money. They ignore the other costs.

Lets keep it simple and assume all income comes from entry fees.
The costs for most events would therefore come from the following items:
Prizes
Rent (even if the organiser owns the venue he still has costs (electricity, water, council rates etc)
Arbiters fees
ACF Rating fees
FIDE rating fee if FIDE rated
GP fees if a GP event
Advertising

I assume your comments are referring to QLD events.
Can you provide an actual example to back up your claim.

I can. I'll give you the exact stats too if you give me some time. I completely understand where you are coming from Bill re: expenses and I agree those expenses must be accounted for and then some. However, there is one such event that was really excessive.

Bill Gletsos
28-12-2004, 06:15 PM
I can. I'll give you the exact stats too if you give me some time. I completely understand where you are coming from Bill re: expenses and I agree those expenses must be accounted for and then some. However, there is one such event that was really excessive.
The reason I made the point is that the NSWCA makes very little profit at all on its events. We even ran some at a loss.
Generally we try to break even or run at a very slight profit.

Alan Shore
28-12-2004, 06:28 PM
The reason I made the point is that the NSWCA makes very little profit at all on its events. We even ran some at a loss.
Generally we try to break even or run at a very slight profit.

Yes, I can understand that. Some events certainly do go that way here too. Will have the stats over the next few days I think.. it's harder without net access from home.

Trent Parker
28-12-2004, 06:49 PM
D'oh. Dont you just hate being disconnected after writing a long post but didn't get to post it.. Ok second edition.......



Maybe I won't play at all if I feel it's a gamble on my health. As W.E. already said, it encourages last-minute entries. With the KB policy there's no chance I would enter any earlier than the last possible moment.

If you had something wrong with you that made it a gamble on your heath to play.... wouldn't that be something serious and thus elligible for a refund?


I already said, refer to my previous post. Also you can have events being cancelled, different organisers and more to add to the list of reasons.

Oh of course. Of course you'd get a refund if the event was altered greatly or cancelled. If it has been cancelled then the purchased right to participate in that tournament is not supplied.


I'll post this for now but i have more.......

Trent Parker
28-12-2004, 06:51 PM
ahhh bills said most of what i wanted to say anyway :D

Cat
28-12-2004, 11:31 PM
Perhaps you underestimate the seriousness of flu. Flu can kill you, perhaps you should be more aware.



I doubt it, as your university isn't run by the Idi Amin regime. My university has a much less totalitarian attitude.. as long as you can provide a medical certificate from a GP or provide evidence of other extreme circumstances there is no problem.




Yes, that's right. Anyone seeking a medical certificate for Mt Buller, please PM with your credit card details. Please include your fax number, if wishing to recieve certificate by fax.

Rincewind
29-12-2004, 12:02 AM
Yes, that's right. Anyone seeking a medical certificate for Mt Buller, please PM with your credit card details. Please include your fax number, if wishing to recieve certificate by fax.

What would the AMA say?

Actually, I can tell you...

5. The Responsibilities of Medical Practitioners

Medical certificates are legal documents. Medical Practitioners who deliberately issue a false, misleading or inaccurate certificate could face disciplinary action under the relevant Medical Practitioners' Act (or its equivalent). Medical practitioners may also expose themselves to civil or criminal legal action. Medical practitioners can assist their patients by displaying a notice to this effect in their waiting rooms.

Refer: http://www.ama.com.au/web.nsf/doc/SHED-5FT44T/$file/healths_gd_ps_cert%20certify%20illness.pdf

Cat
29-12-2004, 10:48 AM
What would the AMA say?

Actually, I can tell you...

5. The Responsibilities of Medical Practitioners

Medical certificates are legal documents. Medical Practitioners who deliberately issue a false, misleading or inaccurate certificate could face disciplinary action under the relevant Medical Practitioners' Act (or its equivalent). Medical practitioners may also expose themselves to civil or criminal legal action. Medical practitioners can assist their patients by displaying a notice to this effect in their waiting rooms.

Refer: http://www.ama.com.au/web.nsf/doc/SHED-5FT44T/$file/healths_gd_ps_cert%20certify%20illness.pdf

Never let rules and regulations get in the way of commercial opportunity, isn't that todays by-word. Besides, my regulatory body is the Queensland Medical Board, not the AMA.

Kevin Bonham
12-01-2005, 04:00 PM
For bringing that up that useless bit of net-nonsense

Stop defending the indefensible - you complain about the way I respond to you but when you dish out trash like this it is completely self-inflicted. You would have to be exceedingly stupid to think that upholding invalid Nazi comparisons was a useful bit of net-nonsense even as a trolling tactic. People like you are polluting the gene pool of political language.


would you like to be awarded the title of nerd, or perhaps of geek? Or perhaps you could supply me with an accurate distinction between the two? :rolleyes:

I am not going to take your trash BD, I am just going to give it back to you twice as hard until either I lose interest or you chuck your usual hissyfit and stop replying. The accurate distinction between the two is none, because having studied your post for several minutes I have concluded that you are something inferior to both. Hope this helps. :rolleyes:


I don't think 'had a cold' is what anyone would really say..

Then you lack life experience (not the first time I've observed this) and don't know what you are talking about, because people can say it and do, and I have known players to give this as a reason (not necessarily a truthful one) for not playing.

To give you a further idea of the stupidity of excuses offered by players, I heard of a case of a player withdrawing recently and claiming something like "I'm not doing well and have a weak heart". When the DOP asked for a med certificate to back the latter the player said "OK I'll get one after I've played in the blitz tournament". :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Newsflash: It's not a business, it's a chess tournament. There is no need for the excessive heavy-handedness and absolute intolerance. :confused:

Newsflash: BD misuses political language again.

Oh wait, that isn't news, is it?

Let's play it again sam, because you didn't bother reading it the first time:


Hmmm, neither of the first two circumstances have ever come up; maybe I would if the problem was really serious (and verifiable). I certainly don't give refunds for "had a cold", "felt bad after dinner" and stuff like that.

Serious problem with med cert - fair enough. In case you think this is a shift in position, not really, I refer you to the word "general" in my initial post.

and look who else wants a piece of the action:


He said Gestapo, not Nazi.

Irrelevant failed attempt at hairsplitting from someone who would want to call himself a pedant-spotter yet seems to be happy to wallow in it himself when it suits his purpose. The inference is the same. :rolleyes:

Alan Shore
12-01-2005, 05:48 PM
Kevin, it's just hilarious the way you get so wound up over nothing!


Stop defending the indefensible - you complain about the way I respond to you but when you dish out trash like this it is completely self-inflicted. You would have to be exceedingly stupid to think that upholding invalid Nazi comparisons was a useful bit of net-nonsense even as a trolling tactic. People like you are polluting the gene pool of political language.

Political language is a joke itself and it doesn't have a 'gene pool' being inorganic :rolleyes:


I am not going to take your trash BD, I am just going to give it back to you twice as hard until either I lose interest or you chuck your usual hissyfit and stop replying.

This was perhaps the most amusing part of your post to me! You (and Bill) are always the ones that get so wound up by a few jibes and then seem to not only have the 'win at all costs' attitude but also the 'last word = victory' attitude and I truly pity both. It is I that loses interest with your incessant jabbering over useless semantics and you that throw the hissyfits - just read your last post!


The accurate distinction between the two is none, because having studied your post for several minutes I have concluded that you are something inferior to both. Hope this helps.

Hahaha! Honestly Kev, I really thought you could do better than that... I'd give it about a pre-school level 2/10. Still, it just further shows everyone the irreverent bullying tactics you always stoop to, to delude yourself you've won an argument.


Then you lack life experience (not the first time I've observed this) and don't know what you are talking about, because people can say it and do, and I have known players to give this as a reason (not necessarily a truthful one) for not playing.

Age is not equal to wisdom, old man. It's a common misnomer.

Even if someone articulates 'cold', if they have a valid certificate, it's a no-brainer to refund their entry fee.


To give you a further idea of the stupidity of excuses offered by players, I heard of a case of a player withdrawing recently and claiming something like "I'm not doing well and have a weak heart". When the DOP asked for a med certificate to back the latter the player said "OK I'll get one after I've played in the blitz tournament". :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Careful with all that eye-rolling, you'll start getting dizzy! That is pretty funny though, hehe! I think he gave it away a bit too much when he said 'I'm not doing well' though.. I'd be with you in not excusing that one.


Serious problem with med cert - fair enough. In case you think this is a shift in position, not really, I refer you to the word "general" in my initial post.

Again, you're brushing over your innaccuracies by twisting semantics. *yawn*


Irrelevant failed attempt at hairsplitting from someone who would want to call himself a pedant-spotter yet seems to be happy to wallow in it himself when it suits his purpose. The inference is the same.

It's amusing how pedantry suits you when it wants to but when used against you it's suddenly an 'Irrelevant failed attempt at hairsplitting'. You don't know how to argue at all, all you can do is turn things around when it suits you - pretty poor consistency mate.

Since we've all but stopped addressing the original issue itself, I don't think I'll waste any more time. Now remember the tennis-ball wall analogy Kev, you can stand there and return what you want but Bruce has gone inside to pursue more meaningful activities :D

firegoat7
13-01-2005, 08:28 AM
What I did think unreasonable is KB's Gestapo-style approach. I mean, what a bastard. If I have to go to hospital and can't attend, you won't refund my money? Likewise if there was a death in the family? Way, way too harsh. Even if someone is too ill to play, I certainly see that as a reasonable excuse.

Look you hit the nail on the hit BD. I agree with your sentiment, chess players should be encouraged to play chess through 'positive experience' with the chess community at large.

Recently at the Xmas Swiss we had two early bird entries who were unable to play. We simply refunded their money. Why not? They had not even played one game. Not a real problem for any party involved. Furthermore, dosen't a policy of no refunds discourage people from entering early for a tournament? I know that as an organiser it is very handy to know in advance if somebody intends to play in a tournament.

As for Bonhams nonsense about your language, DR was quite correct, exactly where is the word 'nazi' in your statement?
It appears Mr 'Never wrong' Bonham is up on his high horse again, sprouting his usual a-social rhetoric over the usage of words.

Can anyone imagine Shakespeare being hung up on the definition of one word?
Cheers FG7

P.S As a retort to your concerns about entry fees for chess BD. Chess needs to be organised (at a quantitative and qualitative level), and as such, it depends on institutions for this. It is pretty cheap in comparison to most other pursuits. However, nothing stops people from spontaneously running tournaments for free (we sometimes have off hand blitz tourneys at mcc). I think chessplayers ought to adopt the view that an entry fee is for the benefit of chess, in the long term, an agreed learning levy.
P.P.S If you have never had a chess lesson from a coach, then have one, then consider a chess tournament entry fee, in the light of that experience.

Kevin Bonham
13-01-2005, 11:04 PM
I've started moving those posts that are wholly or almost wholly (as opposed to largely) off-topic from this thread here (http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=1844).

[EDIT: Further completely off-topic posts on this thread will be moved or deleted.]