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RiverHollow
22-01-2017, 11:20 AM
When will there be confirmation for the location of the 2019 Oceania Zonal?

Alana
22-01-2017, 03:13 PM
When will there be confirmation for the location of the 2019 Oceania Zonal?

The Oceania Confederation is inviting Guam to put in a formal bit (Guam has sent emails saying they are willing to host it). It sounds like the OCC are happy to let them host as long as they find a suitable budget. The dates are unknown as of yet.

RiverHollow
22-01-2017, 03:59 PM
noooooo.... would've like Norths to host again T.T

Kevin Bonham
22-01-2017, 04:00 PM
It's good to share it around different places in the Zone.

RiverHollow
22-01-2017, 04:21 PM
Yea, its good for the little countries to get a chance, I'm speaking mainly from a financial perspective and ease of access.

Thebes
22-01-2017, 04:25 PM
Yea, its good for the little countries to get a chance, I'm speaking mainly from a financial perspective and ease of access.

We'll see but with the new stricter rules coming into place, I think that the participants from Australia at the lower level will be a lot less, especially if it's not held in Australia.

Kevin Bonham
22-01-2017, 05:07 PM
Yea, its good for the little countries to get a chance, I'm speaking mainly from a financial perspective and ease of access.

For you. :lol:


We'll see but with the new stricter rules coming into place, I think that the participants from Australia at the lower level will be a lot less, especially if it's not held in Australia.

It will be interesting to see what it does (if it happens; we're still waiting for this mythical PB meeting to confirm it as the Development Commission chair is opposed to the CM recommendation). Looking at the results of the current Zonal, under the new system 7 of the new 11 FMs would have got their title immediately, 2 others would have got CM immediately. However most of the new CMs would have been conditional on rating and quite a few of those people will probably never make FIDE 2000. So if the mid-range club players drop out and there are smaller fields then it might be harder for 2100s to get FM and over time they might not play so much either.

RiverHollow
22-01-2017, 06:22 PM
Yea but most of the players are Aus anyway :p I do understand the need for equality tho.

Vlad
22-01-2017, 07:31 PM
Sounds just crazy... 5300 kms from Sydney (5700 kms from Melbourne), at least 16 hour flight time with prices starting from 1200 AU. If the organizers end up getting 20 people travelling from countries other than Guam, they would be lucky.

junior
22-01-2017, 08:15 PM
It could be a round robin !

MichaelBaron
22-01-2017, 11:42 PM
So why not just sell the titles? :) Fide does it already via its online chess platform.

Kerry Stead
23-01-2017, 08:01 AM
Sounds just crazy... 5300 kms from Sydney (5700 kms from Melbourne), at least 16 hour flight time with prices starting from 1200 AU. If the organizers end up getting 20 people travelling from countries other than Guam, they would be lucky.

One thing that Guam has over the bigger countries in the Oceania zone is the hospitality offered by the locals - they are very appreciative of players who are willing to travel to Guam for chess, so do their best to accommodate them. Scenery is also fantastic for those not playing chess or before/after chess.
There used to be one or two flights per week direct from Cairns, but seems that this is no longer the case, so it would require multiple flights & a bit more expense, as Vlad suggests.

junior
23-01-2017, 08:42 AM
I usually attend Zonals but this is to far 16 hours is crazy for Oceania Tournements

3 hours 4 hours no problem but 16 hours is the same as going to the Usa ,

i dont think many people will go its to expensive to far prices start around 1500 and go up from there

SquishyDoggy
23-01-2017, 10:18 AM
One thing that Guam has over the bigger countries in the Oceania zone is the hospitality offered by the locals - they are very appreciative of players who are willing to travel to Guam for chess, so do their best to accommodate them. Scenery is also fantastic for those not playing chess or before/after chess.
There used to be one or two flights per week direct from Cairns, but seems that this is no longer the case, so it would require multiple flights & a bit more expense, as Vlad suggests.


I'm not sure this is something Guam has over "bigger countries". From what I know, the New Zealand was extremely hospitable not to mention have beautiful scenery... I have no doubt, this will be the same for Norths in Sydney.

It's nice that the OCC is trying this to promote diversity and chess in off shore regions but with the title restrictions, the increase travel expense, I predict a much smaller field than the last two zonals.

junior
23-01-2017, 10:49 AM
well i dont think the tournement will have enought to financially support itself

Bulldozer
23-01-2017, 12:18 PM
I think the best is never to host the tournament in the smaller countries but partly compensate the expenses of their representatives instead.

Andrew Hardegen
23-01-2017, 12:58 PM
It's good to share it around different places in the Zone.

I agree: the zone is `Oceania'. Kathryn and I wouldn't mind travelling to Sydney or Melbourne (or any other Australian city) -- we have done so numerous times and have always enjoyed ourselves. However we also like to visit new places, and if the Guam Chess Federation is prepared to fund and host a zonal there it could be a very good opportunity to visit Guam. It can only be good for chess in Guam as well.

Of course it may be possible to provide subsidies for players from smaller countries to visit Australia. However the organisers would only be able to subsidise a fraction of the travel costs, and the subsidies would only reach a handful of participants. I don't think it would be fair on players from the smaller countries, and I don't think it would help chess in the region.

Kerry Stead
24-01-2017, 12:33 PM
I'm not sure this is something Guam has over "bigger countries". From what I know, the New Zealand was extremely hospitable not to mention have beautiful scenery... I have no doubt, this will be the same for Norths in Sydney.

It's nice that the OCC is trying this to promote diversity and chess in off shore regions but with the title restrictions, the increase travel expense, I predict a much smaller field than the last two zonals.

There is of course a difference between being hospitable & showing fantastic hospitality ...
I'm sure the organisers in New Zealand were very hospitable, as were the previous organisers in North Sydney, but I doubt they would match the hospitality shown by those in Guam.
Did the organisers meet foreigners at the airport? Take visitors on tours? Organise dinners for players?

Also, is a smaller field size for a zonal necessarily a bad thing? One general complaint about zonals, and in particular recent zonals, has been the number of titles given away - with a smaller field, there would be less titles given away.

Vlad
24-01-2017, 12:56 PM
Why don't we run the next zonal on the South Pole. There will 1-2 people coming at most - they will be announced the winners and sent to play in the next world cup.

Kevin Bonham
24-01-2017, 01:16 PM
The most important thing is that the tournament is able to attract the strongest players. They are the ones who will fight to represent us at the World Cup/WWCC and it would be great for our region if one day Oceania actually wins a match there other than by forfeit. Beyond that some of the players who go to Zonals to try to win titles that they wouldn't get otherwise seem to think that that is the purpose of the event. It is not; the titles are there as bait so that more players will play so that the events will be viable and the prize pools will attract the strongest players. (This is also why FIDE are reluctant to completely fix the soft titles issue.)

Running the Zonals without making a loss should be much easier now after Gary Wastell's success on behalf of the ACF in getting the Zonal fees cut at the AsianCF conference last year. Hopefully this makes it much more viable to spread the event around in different places without being too worried about field size.

Desmond
24-01-2017, 04:09 PM
Why don't we run the next zonal on the South Pole. There will 1-2 people coming at most - they will be announced the winners and sent to play in the next world cup.

You haven't lived until you've won a fide rated game on every continent!

Vlad
24-01-2017, 08:52 PM
The most important thing is that the tournament is able to attract the strongest players. They are the ones who will fight to represent us at the World Cup/WWCC and it would be great for our region if one day Oceania actually wins a match there other than by forfeit.

With the current format for that you need somebody at least 2600+. It is pretty hard to knock out 2750 when you are 2500. When you are 2600 you are getting somebody around 2680 and you do have realistic chances.

SquishyDoggy
25-01-2017, 12:15 AM
Beyond that some of the players who go to Zonals to try to win titles that they wouldn't get otherwise seem to think that that is the purpose of the event. It is not; the titles are there as bait so that more players will play so that the events will be viable and the prize pools will attract the strongest players. (This is also why FIDE are reluctant to completely fix the soft titles issue.)

Well the zonal has multiple purposes, selecting a world cup representative and awarding zonal titles to promote chess is part of it imo.

Direct titles opportunities does address the issue of lack of tournaments in the region. Hard to get your rating up and norms, in these less chess dense regions, as opposed to Europe where they have many tournaments running all the time. I do agree the past years have made the titles really soft and somewhat easy to get. But it seems, FIDE are taking measures to deal with the issue of soft titles by making the restrictions harder and harder.

Limiting numbers of titles probably made it very hard in the past. And the recent two zonals have been much much easier. It's possible this rating requirement might make this just right.

Vlad
25-01-2017, 08:31 AM
The only title that is noticeably harder to get here compared to Europe is the GM title. Every other title here is comparable to Europe. Work on your game, improve your rating and the results and here we go - speaking from my own exprience.

Some of the the zonal titles are much easier than normal way and even the requirement to reach 2100 for FM is not enough IMO. I think the restriction of maximum 2 titles worked perefectly in the past. Anyway it is like a conversation between rich and poor, everybody has their own truth.

Tony Dowden
25-01-2017, 08:37 AM
Guam?! Where is the northern border of the Oceania zone? (In any case, isn't Guam part of USA?)

ER
25-01-2017, 01:12 PM
Guam?! Where is the northern border of the Oceania zone? (In any case, isn't Guam part of USA?)

It definitely is a U.S. island territory in Micronesia, in the Western Pacific. As a part of Micronesia though, it geographically belongs to Oceania.

Ian Rout
25-01-2017, 02:26 PM
It definitely is a U.S. island territory in Micronesia, in the Western Pacific. As a part of Micronesia though, it geographically belongs to Oceania.There are a number of FIDE Federations that are not countries, e.g Faeroe Islands, Hong Kong, Scotland. I think that FIDE has legislated against any future incidences though I may be thinking of some other sport as it's not a unique circumstance.

junior
25-01-2017, 02:52 PM
wheres the 2021 zonal gonna be held ? this one is a miss for me :(

ER
25-01-2017, 10:12 PM
There are a number of FIDE Federations that are not countries, e.g Faeroe Islands, Hong Kong, Scotland. I think that FIDE has legislated against any future incidences though I may be thinking of some other sport as it's not a unique circumstance.

Yes, I remember Faeroe (Faroe?) Islands stirring a sensation by scoring two remarkable draws vs Bulgaria at Baku.
Also, I remember WGM (*) Arakhamia playing under the Scottish flag! Not so sure if it was in the recent Olympiad though!
Hong Kong also participates in chess Olympiads as an independent entity.

Similar situation with FIFA with those three teams play as individual countries in World Cup qualification groups.

In tennis though Andy Murray represents Great Britain! (there's quite a few jokes about his ethnicity though like when he wins it's a British victory, and when he loses he 's only a Scott)! :P :)

(*) Is she also a GM? A friend just suggested that she is!


this one is a miss for me :(

Never lose heart junior. You keep on doing good at school and we 'll petition your dad
with hundreds of signed letters demanding his approval of you go and play! :P :)

Kevin Bonham
25-01-2017, 10:46 PM
Well the zonal has multiple purposes, selecting a world cup representative and awarding zonal titles to promote chess is part of it imo.

Awarding soft zonal titles to promote chess may have some value in countries where chess has very little profile. In Australia it does nothing to promote chess to the wider public and the reception in the chess community is mixed (as we've seen here.)

The issue now is with FM titles as the soft IM title problem is largely fixed. FM titles don't need norms so anyone who is 2300 strength can get an FM title by rating.

junior
26-01-2017, 06:58 AM
Yes, I remember Faeroe (Faroe?) Islands stirring a sensation by scoring two remarkable draws vs Bulgaria at Baku.
Also, I remember WGM (*) Arakhamia playing under the Scottish flag! Not so sure if it was in the recent Olympiad though!
Hong Kong also participates in chess Olympiads as an independent entity.

Similar situation with FIFA with those three teams play as individual countries in World Cup qualification groups.

In tennis though Andy Murray represents Great Britain! (there's quite a few jokes about his ethnicity though like when he wins it's a British victory, and when he loses he 's only a Scott)! :P :)

(*) Is she also a GM? A friend just suggested that she is!



Never lose heart junior. You keep on doing good at school and we 'll petition your dad
with hundreds of signed letters demanding his approval of you go and play! :P :)

haha elliot

Craig_Hall
26-01-2017, 03:53 PM
wheres the 2021 zonal gonna be held ? this one is a miss for me :(

Probably in Fiji based on the usual cycle.

Kaitlin
26-01-2017, 04:59 PM
Probably in Fiji based on the usual cycle.

Really :sad: ! ... just picture that sea breeze in your mind. ..ahhhh h, guess I should have prep'd :sad:

junior
27-01-2017, 09:05 AM
Probably in Fiji based on the usual cycle.

thanks

SquishyDoggy
29-01-2017, 12:20 AM
So what's happening? is it confirmed Guam. When will we get a confirmation that they are able to provide venue and the funding for the next zonal? I'm assuming while Guam got the green light, its not fully established yet (Norths in Sydney still has a chance)

Brian_Jones
29-01-2017, 08:28 AM
So what's happening? is it confirmed Guam. When will we get a confirmation that they are able to provide venue and the funding for the next zonal? I'm assuming while Guam got the green light, its not fully established yet (Norths in Sydney still has a chance)

Be patient - this is a 2019 Zonal and may not be confirmed until late 2017.

Could be Guam, Fiji or anywhere in Australia. Bids are welcome.

Vaness
29-01-2017, 06:53 PM
I usually attend Zonals but this is to far 16 hours is crazy for Oceania Tournements

3 hours 4 hours no problem but 16 hours is the same as going to the Usa ,

i dont think many people will go its to expensive to far prices start around 1500 and go up from there

Cebu Pacific fly to Guam via Manila and are very cheap. (Mind you the seats are the smallest on any airline I've ever been on- even AirAsia)

junior
29-01-2017, 06:59 PM
Cebu Pacific fly to Guam via Manila and are very cheap. (Mind you the seats are the smallest on any airline I've ever been on- even AirAsia)

well even if it was very cheap you have to do two flights equal to 16 hours and 16 hours in discomfort :)

Vaness
29-01-2017, 07:29 PM
well even if it was very cheap you have to do two flights equal to 16 hours and 16 hours in discomfort :)
Don't disagree flight was uncomfortable, and you would have to stay overnight in Manila. Been there, done that- I just suck it up to save $$

junior
29-01-2017, 07:32 PM
Don't disagree flight was uncomfortable, and you would have to stay overnight in Manila. Been there, done that- I just suck it up to save $$

i guess thats an option

lost
31-01-2017, 10:16 PM
Also United Airlines and Philippine Airline fly there.

You can get flights with Royal Brunei Airlines from Melbourne to Manila with a good connection with United Airlines and can get there for less than $2000 if booked in advance.

lost

SquishyDoggy
29-03-2017, 12:54 AM
Any confirmation on dates and location?

RiverHollow
04-05-2017, 10:07 PM
^ when do they get confirmed?

SquishyDoggy
12-08-2017, 06:22 PM
North Korea is threatening Guam, nuclear tension could be an issue.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-12/guams-problems-with-the-us-dont-end-with-north-korea/8799228

MichaelBaron
15-08-2017, 11:17 AM
North Korea is threatening Guam, nuclear tension could be an issue.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-12/guams-problems-with-the-us-dont-end-with-north-korea/8799228

I think may be a problem because many of the participants are usually juniors and given current tensions...it is unlikely parents will send their kids to such a venue...

Lekko
08-09-2017, 06:38 PM
I think may be a problem because many of the participants are usually juniors and given current tensions...it is unlikely parents will send their kids to such a venue...

Perhaps another location should be considered as Guam may not exist in 2019 ...

MichaelBaron
09-09-2017, 11:19 AM
Perhaps another location should be considered as Guam may not exist in 2019 ...

Even Kim understands - so many soft titles should be allowed!

Garvinator
09-09-2017, 11:48 AM
All this conversation that another location should be considered because of some perceived threat is just ridiculous. If it was anywhere near based on logic, then the 2018 Winter Olympics would be not going ahead in their current location: https://www.olympic.org/pyeongchang-2018... which is South Korea

Lekko
11-09-2017, 06:07 PM
Let them deal with their sports events and us with ours. I don't feel safe travelling to Guam and I'm sure there are other players who share this sentiment.

Andrew Hardegen
11-09-2017, 10:09 PM
Let them deal with their sports events and us with ours. I don't feel safe travelling to Guam and I'm sure there are other players who share this sentiment.

When all hell does break loose, Guam will be as safe as anywhere else. Seeking soft titles will be the least of our concerns.

RiverHollow
20-09-2017, 01:42 AM
It's amusing how hard people are defending Guam as a playing location here. There are much better funded, more convenient (and safer) locations, but people have to push a random location in the middle of nowhere for the sake of diversity and progressivism (Oh, we need to give the little guy a chance aye) Oh look how culturally tolerant and accepting we are, lets bring people to an Island in the middle of nowhere instead of going to a well organised and reputable chess club, yay us!

MichaelBaron
21-09-2017, 02:22 AM
It's amusing how hard people are defending Guam as a playing location here. There are much better funded, more convenient (and safer) locations, but people have to push a random location in the middle of nowhere for the sake of diversity and progressivism (Oh, we need to give the little guy a chance aye) Oh look how culturally tolerant and accepting we are, lets bring people to an Island in the middle of nowhere instead of going to a well organised and reputable chess club, yay us!

You do have a point - and its also more expensive for the participants.

ER
21-09-2017, 08:55 AM
It's amusing how hard people are defending Guam as a playing location here. There are much better funded, more convenient (and safer) locations, but people have to push a random location in the middle of nowhere for the sake of diversity and progressivism (Oh, we need to give the little guy a chance aye) Oh look how culturally tolerant and accepting we are, lets bring people to an Island in the middle of nowhere instead of going to a well organised and reputable chess club, yay us!

that's what I call making sense!!! on ya mate!

Andrew Hardegen
21-09-2017, 11:27 PM
I can understand the argument for holding it at Norths or at another large club, particularly if that is where you play your chess. I like Sydney and Melbourne very much, but I have already been to both several times and will be going to Sydney again for another tournament in January. My family and I have never been to Guam and if the Zonal were held there it would give us a perfect reason to do so.

I think it is really up to the Oceania Chess Federation to choose the host. But I think that both Australia and New Zealand, as the leading chess-playing countries in the zone, have a duty to contribute to the development of chess in neighbouring countries.

Brian_Jones
22-09-2017, 09:31 PM
I can understand the argument for holding it at Norths or at another large club, particularly if that is where you play your chess. I like Sydney and Melbourne very much, but I have already been to both several times and will be going to Sydney again for another tournament in January. My family and I have never been to Guam and if the Zonal were held there it would give us a perfect reason to do so.

I think it is really up to the Oceania Chess Federation to choose the host. But I think that both Australia and New Zealand, as the leading chess-playing countries in the zone, have a duty to contribute to the development of chess in neighbouring countries.

A good post which sums up my view as an OCC official. I have been to Guam three times and they deserve an opportunity to host a Zonal as does Perth.

Andrew can we get your strong WA female players to register to play correspondence chess for Australia at www.iccf.com :)

lost
23-10-2017, 07:54 PM
Guam is ready to host such an event. Plus it is for the Development of chess in our region and an event like this can encourage more players to participate.

I know that the Government of Guam is very supportive of this and are considering getting a charter flight from Cairns or Brisbane directly to Guam to help participants getting there more easier and at an affordable price.

lost

RiverHollow
17-11-2017, 05:17 PM
Ultimately it's up to the organisers and the Oceania chess federation, there's a lot of places like Fiji that would benefit from this too.

But I really think it's irresponsible to put children in a place with political tension still high. It's a reflection on what's wrong with 2017, people already try to pretend their progressive and throwing common sense out the window.

MichaelBaron
18-11-2017, 12:49 AM
Ultimately it's up to the organisers and the Oceania chess federation, there's a lot of places like Fiji that would benefit from this too.

But I really think it's irresponsible to put children in a place with political tension still high. It's a reflection on what's wrong with 2017, people already try to pretend their progressive and throwing common sense out the window.

Well, it is meant to be an adults' event :).
And what about Holding official Fide events in places like Saudi Arabia?

Garvinator
18-11-2017, 02:03 AM
Ultimately it's up to the organisers and the Oceania chess federation, there's a lot of places like Fiji that would benefit from this too.
Between Australia, NZ and Fiji, those federations have shared the hosting duties quite a bit and this event has been held enough in those locations. It is time to hold it elsewhere.


But I really think it's irresponsible to put children in a place with political tension still high. It's a reflection on what's wrong with 2017, people already try to pretend their progressive and throwing common sense out the window.
If you have read any of my posts from other threads, I do not think you find one inkling of me being a progressive- if you are using the term progressive to be left leaning and all that type of stuff.

Plenty of chess events across the world are held in areas with high political tensions. If that is your standard, then there is almost nowhere in the world that could hold a chess event. Almost all countries have their security risks, far more that Australia and New Zealand.

Well how about the latest match between Australia and Honduras, played in the murder capital of the world. By your standards, that match should not have gone ahead.

Instead of whinging about Guam hosting the 2019 Oceania Zonal on security grounds, when I really think you just do not want to admit you just can not be bothered travelling to Guam and so want to use any excuse to try and get it moved to a move convenient location for yourself, why not ask why is Guam part of the Oceania Zone in the first place, considering its location?

If Guam was not part of the Oceania Zone and was instead part of Asia, then this would all be a moot discussion. And then we would instead be discussing options like PNG or Solomon Islands.

Garvinator
18-11-2017, 02:06 AM
Well, it is meant to be an adults' event :).
And what about Holding official Fide events in places like Saudi Arabia?
Its an event for all ages and there is an event for both genders. Remember Anton Smirnov was our representative after winning the 2017 Oceania Zonal.

Fide recently held the female world championship in Iran, much to my public displeasure. Saudi Arabia would probably be the same. But the example is rather off topic, I think, as we are talking about the Oceania Zonal and the Oceania Zone, so unless you can link it back to either of those, I think it is off topic.

Kevin Bonham
18-11-2017, 08:55 AM
Fide recently held the female world championship in Iran, much to my public displeasure. Saudi Arabia would probably be the same. But the example is rather off topic, I think, as we are talking about the Oceania Zonal and the Oceania Zone, so unless you can link it back to either of those, I think it is off topic.

Yes I agree. If anyone wants to have a discussion about FIDE holding events in Saudi Arabia - which I am very happy for people to discuss here - please do so on a new thread. It is off-topic for this thread and future references to it may be deleted.

lost
12-12-2017, 08:28 AM
Dear all,

Do we have any confirmation regarding Guam as the official host of the 2019 Zonal Championships?

lost

Garvinator
24-12-2017, 03:42 PM
Dear all,

Do we have any confirmation regarding Guam as the official host of the 2019 Zonal Championships?
Clearly not. Even though, if it is being held in middle of 2019, it is still 18 months away. Still, people will need time to save and prepare if going to Guam. Will not be as easy as going to NZ, PNG or even Fiji.

Garvinator
24-12-2017, 03:43 PM
Yes I agree. If anyone wants to have a discussion about FIDE holding events in Saudi Arabia - which I am very happy for people to discuss here - please do so on a new thread. It is off-topic for this thread and future references to it may be deleted.
Boom, tish ;)

SquishyDoggy
25-12-2017, 10:35 PM
Instead of whinging about Guam hosting the 2019 Oceania Zonal on security grounds, when I really think you just do not want to admit you just can not be bothered travelling to Guam and so want to use any excuse to try and get it moved to a move convenient location for yourself, why not ask why is Guam part of the Oceania Zone in the first place, considering its location?

If Guam was not part of the Oceania Zone and was instead part of Asia, then this would all be a moot discussion. And then we would instead be discussing options like PNG or Solomon Islands.


Pretty uncalled for to make it personal, imo, for all we know the user could be just a concerned parent.



I think the hosting location should be somewhat democratic and maybe players can ask to have a say in where they want to play - maybe we can make a new thread?



Is it already confirmed as Guam?

Also is the date of the tournament confirmed?

Bill Gletsos
25-12-2017, 11:12 PM
Pretty uncalled for to make it personal, imo, for all we know the user could be just a concerned parent.He could be but he isn't.


I think the hosting location should be somewhat democratic and maybe players can ask to have a say in where they want to play - maybe we can make a new thread?If players were allowed to pick tournament venues, the majority of entrants would simply pick there home country/state to reduce travel and accommodation costs.

If players don't like the venue there is no one forcing them to play.

Garvinator
26-12-2017, 01:28 PM
Pretty uncalled for to make it personal, imo, for all we know the user could be just a concerned parent.I have only made it 'personal', if you want to view it that way, after viewing the stream of comments on this thread and thought it was time to call out some of what I believe are the true motivations of the posters.

I believe it makes it a much more honest discussion if debaters just admit that they do not want to go to Guam because:

It is too far away and costly
I can not be bothered travelling that far
It should not be part of the Oceania Zone
Insert eight other reasons that could be considered legitimate

Then any host nation can be aware of the risks associated if they decide to bid, and they know the hurdles they have to overcome and concerns they have to alleviate.


I think the hosting location should be somewhat democratic and maybe players can ask to have a say in where they want to play - maybe we can make a new thread?
The hosting location will be democratically decided, but what you view as democratic and what chess organisations view as democratic is very different. In layman's terms, each country in the Oceania zone is represented and they will all get a vote on whether to accept the bid, from where ever a host country puts up a bid. The hosting privileges are shared around every two years and in the last 6 to 8 years have been shared between Australia, NZ and Fiji, so it is time to move away from them to another Oceania Zone Federation.


Is it already confirmed as Guam? Also is the date of the tournament confirmed? If any country and dates had already been confirmed, then this would have been announced. As I previously said, it is still at least 12 months away and most likely 18 months.

All this discussion about Guam is just conjecture and pie in the sky stuff. Who knows if there is any serious plans about holding at Guam. It could just all be skuttlebutt and rumours designed to get a few peoples knickers in a knot. If that was the intention, then well done, objective accomplished.

Kevin Bonham
26-12-2017, 05:30 PM
The hosting location will be democratically decided, but what you view as democratic and what chess organisations view as democratic is very different. In layman's terms, each country in the Oceania zone is represented and they will all get a vote on whether to accept the bid, from where ever a host country puts up a bid.

I don't believe this is correct, unless there is some change or adoption of practice that I haven't been made aware of. Under FIDE Handbook D.01.02 the Zonal President is responsible for the Zonal.

http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=88&view=article

I can't recall Australia being invited to vote on any bid in the past. Under the OCC statutes the President consults with the OCC Executive Board and the Asian CF, but we are still not a member of the OCC anyway.

The nations in a Zone do however elect the Zone President.

Kevin Bonham
26-12-2017, 05:34 PM
I think the hosting location should be somewhat democratic and maybe players can ask to have a say in where they want to play - maybe we can make a new thread?

If someone wants to make a thread with a poll they can, but I will not be doing so. Other than that I'd prefer discussion to be kept on this thread. Nothing to stop players having a say on this thread but I notice very few have done so.

sleepless
26-12-2017, 08:59 PM
The hosting privileges are shared around every two years and in the last 6 to 8 years have been shared between Australia, NZ and Fiji, so it is time to move away from them to another Oceania Zone Federation.

Sounds fair as we’ve had it mostly our way so far.

Tony Dowden
01-03-2018, 08:15 PM
If we're looking for a new island to hold the Zonal on, how about the South Island, NZ? A far as I know the NZ zonal has always been in the (smaller) North Island. Queenstown would be nice :)

Capablanca-Fan
02-03-2018, 05:29 AM
Yes, Queenstown makes excellent sense.

Craig_Hall
04-03-2018, 12:46 PM
Yes, Queenstown makes excellent sense.

It sounds good, but accommodation is expensive and harder to get every year as more people visit - almost a victim of its own success in that sense.

MichaelBaron
14-03-2018, 05:53 PM
If we're looking for a new island to hold the Zonal on, how about the South Island, NZ? A far as I know the NZ zonal has always been in the (smaller) North Island. Queenstown would be nice :)

It should be noted that Melbourne has not had a zonal for a long while (since 1975 or so) :P

Lekko
15-03-2018, 01:22 PM
It should be noted that Melbourne has not had a zonal for a long while (since 1975 or so) :P

That's my favourite island to be honest.

Brian_Jones
24-03-2018, 02:45 PM
Looks like Guam in February 2019.

RiverHollow
19-04-2018, 02:00 AM
Looks like Guam in February 2019.

Any confirmation?

Bulldozer
19-04-2018, 03:06 PM
It's wrong to consider all countries equal. People not countries play chess. Look at the number of active players:


AUS 899
NZL 201
PLW 24
FIJ 10
GUM 8
NRU 7
PNG 5
SOL 0
According to this, you might think Guam deserves the right to host a Zonal once in three centuries. Well, maybe, but it's impractical due to location anyway.
I think Guam should never host a Zonal. Instead, the host players should compensate the expenses of the rest players.

Trent Parker
19-04-2018, 05:23 PM
I agree that Guam is a pain in the bottom to get to and I would probably use my money to go see my sister and family in Florida despite so desprately wanting to play in a zonal, But.....

I assume these numbers are active numbers on Fide?

Perhaps because it can be expensive to hold Fide Tournaments there are not more Fide Rated players from these countries?

According to your Methodology Fiji should never have a Zonal either, but I hear they run a decent show.

I think the Fiji Chess Association (or whatever it is called) get more than 10 players to their tournaments (strength may be a different matter).

My 2c worth.......

Bulldozer
19-04-2018, 06:36 PM
Perhaps because it can be expensive to hold Fide Tournaments there are not more Fide Rated players from these countries?

According to your Methodology Fiji should never have a Zonal either, but I hear they run a decent show.

Yes, it was the number of active FIDE players. I don't insist on this very method, it was just an example. We can use another stats, like population size, or the number of players registered at online arenas, whatever - I expect it'll be nearly the same. Even better - ask the players what they prefer - travel to Guam, or stay at home and, as I suggested, pay for other players who would need to travel.
I know about Fiji. It attracted three times less players than the recent Zonals in AU/NZ.

Kevin Bonham
19-04-2018, 07:07 PM
Slightly off-topic (and I'll move the discussion of it if it amounts to more than a few posts) but only 5 for PNG which has a population of 8 million is a depressing statistic.

Trent Parker
20-04-2018, 02:21 PM
Yes, it was the number of active FIDE players. I don't insist on this very method, it was just an example. We can use another stats, like population size, or the number of players registered at online arenas, whatever - I expect it'll be nearly the same. Even better - ask the players what they prefer - travel to Guam, or stay at home and, as I suggested, pay for other players who would need to travel.
I know about Fiji. It attracted three times less players than the recent Zonals in AU/NZ.


I think the method of sharing the zonal around is the best way to go about it. If 1 in every 3 zonals is not in a Australia or New Zealand You would think that the publicity of a tournament of that stature would attract more people to the game.

So potentually you would make the Entry fee into the tournament sky high so as to cover the costs of a few people to come to Australia? Sponsorship of chess tournaments in Australia is pretty much dead (but thats another gripe i have for another day). If another country can get sponsorship for the zonal which only attracts a few international guests then good on them.

If a person cannot get to australia/New Zealand/Guam/wherever, then so be it. you miss out. Of course the stronger players are going to want the tournament in their home city. Its where they feel most comfortable.

What would you suggest the Oceania Confederacy do to promote chess in the Oceania region if not hold the odd zonal in a non ANZ country?

Trent Parker
20-04-2018, 02:22 PM
Slightly off-topic (and I'll move the discussion of it if it amounts to more than a few posts) but only 5 for PNG which has a population of 8 million is a depressing statistic.

And Shaun Press is one of them. lol

Tony Dowden
20-04-2018, 10:01 PM
Slightly off-topic (and I'll move the discussion of it if it amounts to more than a few posts) but only 5 for PNG which has a population of 8 million is a depressing statistic.

Moreover, it appears that:

1. All five seem to be itinerant 'ex-pats' (albeit in the loose sense - as Shaun Press at least was born there and perhaps others were too).

2. All five are aged over 50 years old.

3. And all five seem to live off-shore: Shaun Press (born PNG in 1966) lives in Canberra, Helmut Marko (born Austria in 1954) lives in Tauranga NZ, Rudy Tia Jr. (born Phillipines? in 1964) now appears to live in Texas, USA (?), Rupert Jones (born [where?] in 1961) represented Botswana in 3 Olympiads before representing PNG and now lives in the UK (?) and Bruce Hesketh (born [where?] in 1939) now appears to live in Victoria, Australia(?).

Maybe someone else is interested in supplying corrections/more details?

Footnote: In 1974 my fellow Otago representative in the eight-player 'NZ Schoolboys' Final (won by GM-to-be Murray Chandler) was Roger Perry who later played for PNG in the 1984 Olympiad!

Bulldozer
21-04-2018, 07:56 PM
What would you suggest the Oceania Confederacy do to promote chess in the Oceania region if not hold the odd zonal in a non ANZ country?
To promote chess in Oceania better, I would suggest to hold all zonals in ANZ so that more Oceania people in fact are attracted (if ANZ is Oceania).

Trent Parker
26-04-2018, 03:10 PM
Ok, Fair enough, the question was faulty.

What would you do to promote chess in the non ANZ countries in the Oceania Region.

Bulldozer
27-04-2018, 12:26 AM
Ok, Fair enough, the question was faulty.

What would you do to promote chess in the non ANZ countries in the Oceania Region.
Wouldn't the method described in my original post do this? We would see more non ANZ players playing chess (in ANZ).

RiverHollow
27-04-2018, 03:54 PM
When are we getting a confirmation on the date?

Trent Parker
27-04-2018, 04:33 PM
Wouldn't the method described in my original post do this? We would see more non ANZ players playing chess (in ANZ).

How would taking a players out of a country promote participation in chess in that country? Besides I believe it would be too expensive for the organisers to pay the way for individuals to visit.

I believe the way to promote chess in these countries is to hold more tournaments in these countries. The sharing around of the Zonal is one way of promoting chess in Oceania and its many countries and they get it, what, every 6 odd years?

MichaelBaron
28-04-2018, 11:44 AM
How would taking a players out of a country promote participation in chess in that country? Besides I believe it would be too expensive for the organisers to pay the way for individuals to visit.

I believe the way to promote chess in these countries is to hold more tournaments in these countries. The sharing around of the Zonal is one way of promoting chess in Oceania and its many countries and they get it, what, every 6 odd years?
One factor that has not been considered in this thread yet is ''political correctness''. Having the tournament held all over the place demonstrates ''all-inclusiveness'' - I am wondering if its a factor or not when deciding where to hold the event.

MichaelBaron
28-04-2018, 11:46 AM
One factor that has not been considered in this thread yet is ''political correctness''. Having the tournament held all over the place demonstrates ''all-inclusiveness'' - I am wondering if its a factor or not when deciding where to hold the event.

The analogy is ...organizers offering same free entry conditions to IMs and WIMs while IM participation is likely to attract more participants while with WIM participation - the attraction factor is less transparent.

Rook15
04-05-2018, 09:03 AM
Back in 2017 the Oceania zonal was held in Jan and it was school holidays in Australia so the school going kids participated. It looks like those kids cannot participate again if held in Feb 2019.
It would be good if Oceania zonal took place between middle of Dec to end of Jan.

Garvinator
04-05-2018, 04:54 PM
Back in 2017 the Oceania zonal was held in Jan and it was school holidays in Australia so the school going kids participated. It looks like those kids cannot participate again if held in Feb 2019.
It would be good if Oceania zonal took place between middle of Dec to end of Jan.
I think you miss the main point of a Zonal. It is the first step towards world championship qualification and the winner of both events gets to play in the World Cup. The tournament is not designed around the needs or wishes of junior players, it is designed to find the best player in both events.

That is what the Australian Juniors and other events are for.

And when holding the Oceania Zonal in January, the players complain it clashes with the Australian Champs/Open/Juniors and the NZ Open, so they can't win for when it is held.

Rook15
04-05-2018, 09:43 PM
I think it is incorrect to assume junior players cannot qualify for the world championships/world cup. There are currently junior players (meaning under 18) who are rated higher than some participants in the Zonal and still going to high school. These players are already FM qualified or already have FM title and doing well at school.

If you have these Zonal tournaments in Feb then these kids donít have the option of choosing chess over school. Whereas adults have an option of going to Australian Championships/NZ Open or Zonal and there is a choice to make.

Rook15
04-05-2018, 09:59 PM
I just looked at 2017 Zonal winners and I guess that the first two winners on the list are under 18 at the time. Look at the list carefully and count how many under 18 are in there.

Thebes
04-05-2018, 10:04 PM
I think it is incorrect to assume junior players cannot qualify for the world championships/world cup. There are currently junior players (meaning under 18) who are rated higher than some participants in the Zonal and still going to high school. These players are already FM qualified or already have FM title and doing well at school.

If you have these Zonal tournaments in Feb then these kids don’t have the option of choosing chess over school. Whereas adults have an option of going to Australian Championships/NZ Open or Zonal and there is a choice to make.

Any Junior that can qualify for the world championship would be prioritising chess over school anyway, I agree with Garvinator that the scheduling/location shouldnt be based around solely on juniors.

Also even if a junior did qualify for the World Cup, there’s no guarantee that wouldn’t clash with school.

RiverHollow
05-05-2018, 07:50 AM
will it be early or late feb

Vlad
05-05-2018, 05:21 PM
Any Junior that can qualify for the world championship would be prioritising chess over school anyway, I agree with Garvinator that the scheduling/location shouldnt be based around solely on juniors.

Also even if a junior did qualify for the World Cup, there’s no guarantee that wouldn’t clash with school.

I do not think this is a correct statement in the case of Anton, who btw is the winner of 2017 zonal.

I think the fact that the competition is in Guam means that the chances of Anton's participation are very small. The additional fact that it is in February, makes the chances to be zero. Anton will be starting year 12 next year, so taking school off would be quite problematic.

lost
01-06-2018, 02:18 PM
Hi Everyone,

Regarding the Zonal, the dates are from 18-24th of February. Venue and official hotel is likely (99%) the Pacific Star Hotel.

Organisers are trying to arrange a discount on flights with Philippine Airlines. More news to come when Guam organisers release it.

lost

Trent Parker
01-06-2018, 02:43 PM
Considering Philippines airlines already has cheap fights I think the problem would be the travelling time. almost 24 hours is a long time to be travelling including 10 hours in Manilla........

Kevin Bonham
01-06-2018, 10:29 PM
Considering Philippines airlines already has cheap fights I think the problem would be the travelling time. almost 24 hours is a long time to be travelling including 10 hours in Manilla........

For arriving the day before and leaving the day after there's currently one at 17 hrs 15 mins over 14 hrs 15 mins back including layover for $1035 return ex Sydney (doubtless cheaper if booked directly). Just a little catch though; it arrives in Guam at 4 am. :lol:

Kevin Bonham
08-07-2018, 03:02 PM
Moderation Notice

As the event is now confirmed for Guam and details are available I have moved discussion of the event itself to a new thread.

Discussion of where Zonals should be located can be continued here if desired.

Garvinator
08-07-2018, 05:14 PM
Moderation Notice

As the event is now confirmed for Guam and details are available I have moved discussion of the event itself to a new thread.

Discussion of where Zonals should be located can be continued here if desired.

Or whether Guam should be in the Oceania Zone at all considering it is a USA overseas territory and is located closer to Asia than Oceania.

lost
08-07-2018, 06:41 PM
Hi Garvinator,

Regarding the concern of whether Guam should be allowed to participate in the Oceania region or not, you might want to research about their participation in the Micronesian Games and the Pacific Games and then you can question whether some other "nations" should participate.

lost

MichaelBaron
08-07-2018, 11:38 PM
Hi Garvinator,

Regarding the concern of whether Guam should be allowed to participate in the Oceania region or not, you might to research about their participation in the Micronesian Games and the Pacific Games and then you can question whether some other "nations" should participate.

lost

Re ''Allowed'' if we look at the history of chess/sporting events we can see that ''belonging to a zone'' often has little to do with geography anyway. E.g. In 1960's Israel was in the same zone as Mongolia, Iran, India Australia....by 1980's it was in the same zonal as Germany, Austrla etc.

Garvinator
09-07-2018, 04:46 PM
Hi Garvinator,

Regarding the concern of whether Guam should be allowed to participate in the Oceania region or not, you might want to research about their participation in the Micronesian Games and the Pacific Games and then you can question whether some other "nations" should participate.

lost
Wikipedia states for the Micronesia Games and Pacific Games:


Competitors
Participants include four sovereign countries (the Marshall Islands, Kiribati, Nauru, and Palau), a commonwealth in political union with the United States (the Northern Mariana Islands), an organized unincorporated territory of the United States (Guam), and the four constituent States of the Federated States of Micronesia (Chuuk, Pohnpei, Kosrae and Yap, which compete separately from one another).

These ten countries, States and territories are all located within the Micronesian region of Oceania.

All participants also take part in the Pacific Games, although the Federated States of Micronesia competes as a unified country there.

So it does seem cut and dried that Guam and the other islands do 'belong' to the Oceania Zone.

For the record. I was not for or against Guam being in the Oceania Zone, I just found it a bit of an oddity. But what I objecting to was that some voices were saying that since Guam was in the Oceania Zone and the likely host of this Zonal, it is too far away and our players should not support it as it is too difficult to get too. Or similar reasons.

I felt that all Federations in the Oceania Zone have a responsibility to grow chess in the region, which means that once in a decade or so, the Zonal will be held in one of the smaller or more outer Federations.

But instead of people bleating about not wanting to go to those countries because it is supposedly too difficult and they believe the event should always be held in Australia or New Zealand, as those two Federations have the largest players, this creates a greater impost on those from the smaller nations who are expected to travel all the time for every Zonal, instead of having the opportunity to host the Zonal once every six Zonals or so.

In summary, I thought if players wanted to complain about Guam being awarded the Zonal, which since it is in the Oceania Zonal I do support and want to see it be successful, then the more obvious stance would be to ask why is Guam in the Oceania Zone when it is a US Overseas Territory and closer to Asia.

But as Wikipedia has answered with the stance of the Micronesia and Pacific Games, they are all regarded as part of the Oceania Zone.

antichrist
10-12-2018, 12:12 AM
I think all this could be expected when awarding the zonal to Guam....

Does the geographical bearing have a bearing? Why, being close to the Philippines with many Filipinos working there?

Andrew Hardegen
10-12-2018, 12:29 PM
Does the geographical bearing have a bearing? Why, being close to the Philippines with many Filipinos working there?

This is an Oceania Zonal Championship -- players registered under Philippines are not eligible to participate.

Guam has a total of 28 rated FIDE-registered players, some of whom may be Filipino citizens or expats. Guam's highest rated player is CM Elmer Prudente (2015). He is participating.

Palau has a total of 106 rated FIDE-registered players, some of whom may be Filipino citizens or expats. Palau's highest rated player is CM Cyril Tomas Montel Jr. (1877). He is also participating.

Participation from Australia and New Zealand will certainly be lower, due to the relative cost and difficulty of travelling to Guam. But for the `pointy end' to be strengthened at all will require more strong players from either Australia or New Zealand to enter. This may yet happen -- if I remember correctly, the 2013 Zonal held in Fiji was relatively strong.

Garvinator
10-12-2018, 02:01 PM
This is an Oceania Zonal Championship -- players registered under Philippines are not eligible to participate.

Guam has a total of 28 rated FIDE-registered players, some of whom may be Filipino citizens or expats. Guam's highest rated player is CM Elmer Prudente (2015). He is participating.

Palau has a total of 106 rated FIDE-registered players, some of whom may be Filipino citizens or expats. Palau's highest rated player is CM Cyril Tomas Montel Jr. (1877). He is also participating.

Participation from Australia and New Zealand will certainly be lower, due to the relative cost and difficulty of travelling to Guam. But for the `pointy end' to be strengthened at all will require more strong players from either Australia or New Zealand to enter. This may yet happen -- if I remember correctly, the 2013 Zonal held in Fiji was relatively strong.

Back a few months ago when some noisy people were complaining about Guam being the location for the 2019 Oceania Zonal, I said that instead of complaining about every Federation in Oceania having a responsibility to both host a zonal once every few 'turns', but also the responsibility of the other Federations to support their other Federations, that a players complaint might best be served in arguing that Guam should not be in the Oceania Zone at all.

It was clearly shown to me that in other sporting competitions, that Guam and other Micronesia Nations compete in Oceania Zonal competitions, rather than with their purely geographic Asian neighbours.

MichaelBaron
10-12-2018, 05:44 PM
This is an Oceania Zonal Championship -- players registered under Philippines are not eligible to participate.

Guam has a total of 28 rated FIDE-registered players, some of whom may be Filipino citizens or expats. Guam's highest rated player is CM Elmer Prudente (2015). He is participating.

Palau has a total of 106 rated FIDE-registered players, some of whom may be Filipino citizens or expats. Palau's highest rated player is CM Cyril Tomas Montel Jr. (1877). He is also participating.

Participation from Australia and New Zealand will certainly be lower, due to the relative cost and difficulty of travelling to Guam. But for the `pointy end' to be strengthened at all will require more strong players from either Australia or New Zealand to enter. This may yet happen -- if I remember correctly, the 2013 Zonal held in Fiji was relatively strong.

Some may enter to ''buy''themselves a soft title but other than that...hard to envisage many strong player entering...

antichrist
12-12-2018, 07:09 AM
Some may enter to ''buy''themselves a soft title but other than that...hard to envisage many strong player entering...

Michael, when Max comes back with the title and wallops you will your view change?

MichaelBaron
12-12-2018, 01:47 PM
Michael, when Max comes back with the title and wallops you will your view change?

Max is a GM already - nothing to do with soft titles.
But again..the zonal has been awarded to Guam long time ago...and obviously won't move :). I am more interested to know about the ''learning curve'' of the Oceania Chess Community...will there be more zonals held in ''Guams of the Oceania'' in future? :)

Tony Dowden
12-12-2018, 07:26 PM
(Garvinator posted)
... but as Wikipedia has answered with the stance of the Micronesia and Pacific Games, they are all regarded as part of the Oceania Zone.

Yes, culturally Micronesia, Melanesia and Polynesia have enduring links.

Garvinator
12-12-2018, 08:19 PM
But again..the zonal has been awarded to Guam long time ago...and obviously won't move :). I am more interested to know about the ''learning curve'' of the Oceania Chess Community...will there be more zonals held in ''Guams of the Oceania'' in future? :)
If you think about where each of the Zonals are likely to be held on a equal rotational basis, then it will look something like this:

2021: Australia/New Zealand
2023: Australia/New Zealand/Fiji (Aus or NZ that did not host in 2021 and Fiji having a shot
2025: Fiji or another South Pacific Island Nation (Solomon Islands, Vanuatu) come to mind.

PNG has also not been mentioned, so probably can be thrown into the mix here as well for 2025 and beyond if we are looking at many years away nations.

As for the outlier nations like Guam and other nations part of Oceania, as you can see, it will be at least 2027 at the earliest before they get a mention. And still in that time Australia and New Zealand have hosted a second time. So you are looking at more like a 12 year gap. So make it 2029 before one of the outlier nations gets a run.

Furthermore to this, quite a bit could depend on the New Caledonia second and third round independence votes. With the first vote only being 56/44% for staying with France and according the Noumea Accords a second Independence vote is due to 2020, it is quite possible that New Caledonia could vote to become independent in either that vote or in 2022.

Which would then possibly see a new Country join Oceania and be eligible to host the Zonal. Being only two hours away from Australia and New Zealand, very attractive indeed.

MichaelBaron
19-12-2018, 01:04 AM
If you think about where each of the Zonals are likely to be held on a equal rotational basis, then it will look something like this:

2021: Australia/New Zealand
2023: Australia/New Zealand/Fiji (Aus or NZ that did not host in 2021 and Fiji having a shot
2025: Fiji or another South Pacific Island Nation (Solomon Islands, Vanuatu) come to mind.

PNG has also not been mentioned, so probably can be thrown into the mix here as well for 2025 and beyond if we are looking at many years away nations.

As for the outlier nations like Guam and other nations part of Oceania, as you can see, it will be at least 2027 at the earliest before they get a mention. And still in that time Australia and New Zealand have hosted a second time. So you are looking at more like a 12 year gap. So make it 2029 before one of the outlier nations gets a run.

Furthermore to this, quite a bit could depend on the New Caledonia second and third round independence votes. With the first vote only being 56/44% for staying with France and according the Noumea Accords a second Independence vote is due to 2020, it is quite possible that New Caledonia could vote to become independent in either that vote or in 2022.

Which would then possibly see a new Country join Oceania and be eligible to host the Zonal. Being only two hours away from Australia and New Zealand, very attractive indeed.

If very attractive - not a problem at all. But if Guam proves to be ''not so attractive'' should it (and similar micro-nations) get more continental events to run?

Craig_Hall
19-12-2018, 06:57 PM
If you think about where each of the Zonals are likely to be held on a equal rotational basis, then it will look something like this:

2021: Australia/New Zealand
2023: Australia/New Zealand/Fiji (Aus or NZ that did not host in 2021 and Fiji having a shot
2025: Fiji or another South Pacific Island Nation (Solomon Islands, Vanuatu) come to mind.

PNG has also not been mentioned, so probably can be thrown into the mix here as well for 2025 and beyond if we are looking at many years away nations.

As for the outlier nations like Guam and other nations part of Oceania, as you can see, it will be at least 2027 at the earliest before they get a mention. And still in that time Australia and New Zealand have hosted a second time. So you are looking at more like a 12 year gap. So make it 2029 before one of the outlier nations gets a run.

Furthermore to this, quite a bit could depend on the New Caledonia second and third round independence votes. With the first vote only being 56/44% for staying with France and according the Noumea Accords a second Independence vote is due to 2020, it is quite possible that New Caledonia could vote to become independent in either that vote or in 2022.

Which would then possibly see a new Country join Oceania and be eligible to host the Zonal. Being only two hours away from Australia and New Zealand, very attractive indeed.

Fiji is arguably "due" the next Zonal (2021) as the last Zonal was NZ and the one before Australia, but either way, I agree that Australia and NZ are likely to follow in 2023 and 2025, leaving 2027 as the next open slot, although there's no real reason why another nation couldn't host if they are eligible and can put forward a good proposal.

MichaelBaron
19-12-2018, 10:42 PM
Fiji is arguably "due" the next Zonal (2021) as the last Zonal was NZ and the one before Australia, but either way, I agree that Australia and NZ are likely to follow in 2023 and 2025, leaving 2027 as the next open slot, although there's no real reason why another nation couldn't host if they are eligible and can put forward a good proposal.

by 2027....the entire WC cycle and qualifications may change :)

Garvinator
20-12-2018, 12:07 AM
Fiji is arguably "due" the next Zonal (2021) as the last Zonal was NZ and the one before Australia, but either way, I agree that Australia and NZ are likely to follow in 2023 and 2025, leaving 2027 as the next open slot, although there's no real reason why another nation couldn't host if they are eligible and can put forward a good proposal.
Tying both Michael's last comment in- that by 2027 that the WC cycle might have completely changed, so speculating this far out is more of a fun exercise than anything else. And he is right.

But still it was born to rebut an important principle, how likely is it that a future Oceania Zonal could be held in one of the far off Zonal locations such as Guam.

So I set about detailing a likely timetable and possible world events that I was aware of that shows that it is at least 2027 and I would argue even 2029 or 2031 before the next 'out there' Zonal would be held. When you read 2031, that sounds honks away, but it is seven zonals away.

As Craig has commented, he is of the opinion that 2021 is likely to be Fiji. With no knowledge at all of Oceania processes behind the scenes, I would be surprised if 2021 is not in either of Australia or NZ and then 2023 could be promised to Fiji. My reasoning being that after being at Guam, it would be time to bring it back to one of the two larger Oceania Zones.

2025 goes to the other Nation that was not 2021.


If very attractive - not a problem at all. If you read my whole comment again, you will clearly see that the comment I have now quoted here is directly pointed towards a Zonal being held in New Caledonia. I think you need to re-read my post on New Caledonia before commenting again that I was attributing that any Zonal location that might be attractive is worth going to.

I was very specific in my wording regarding the circumstances of New Caledonia and if NC does go independent, then NC might join the Oceania Zone and so it would be likely to jump the queue of the order of where the zonals are likely to be held as NC is two to four hours flight time from Australia/NZ/Fiji and not much further from others and it would be good to bring another country into our zone.

Ian Rout
24-12-2018, 10:56 AM
3 Australians entered so far...

The above comment was on the thread about the Guam Zonal but I think it is more a reference to the suitability of the location than the event itself.

I think that having the Zonal in Guam, thousands of kms from any of the genuine contenders, comes under the heading of a good principle (namely sharing it around) taken to absurd lengths. However the above observation reminded me of Prof Parkinson's observation that job advertisements should be written in such a way that the best person for the job will be the only applicant. It may be that the OCC have inadvertently implemented a variation on this principle.

MichaelBaron
24-12-2018, 03:32 PM
The above comment was on the thread about the Guam Zonal but I think it is more a reference to the suitability of the location than the event itself.

I think that having the Zonal in Guam, thousands of kms from any of the genuine contenders, comes under the heading of a good principle (namely sharing it around) taken to absurd lengths. However the above observation reminded me of Prof Parkinson's observation that job advertisements should be written in such a way that the best person for the job will be the only applicant. It may be that the OCC have inadvertently implemented a variation on this principle.

But what a politically correct decision it was to award it to Guam :).

There are trivial ways to identify venues that ''sell'' and venues that do not. For example put out a survey asking chess players would they travel to the zonal if it would be held in...? Is it an attraction to have it held in exotic location or a negative factor? - As someone who thinks in terms of ''feasibility'' I do not see any logic in having it in Guam.


But then again the factor of ''sharing around'' simply to show that everyone is engaged kicks in. And I totally agree with you...Guam is indeed taking the concept of a''all-inclusiveness'' and every member of the Oceania federation being equally valuable irrespective of the numbers of people who play chess in each of the respective states, level of play, events/clubs organized to an absurd level.

Ian Rout
24-12-2018, 04:15 PM
But what a politically correct decision it was to award it to Guam :).

There are trivial ways to identify venues that ''sell'' and venues that do not. For example put out a survey asking chess players would they travel to the zonal if it would be held in...? Is it an attraction to have it held in exotic location or a negative factor? - As someone who thinks in terms of ''feasibility'' I do not see any logic in having it in Guam.


But then again the factor of ''sharing around'' simply to show that everyone is engaged kicks in. And I totally agree with you...Guam is indeed taking the concept of a''all-inclusiveness'' and every member of the Oceania federation being equally valuable irrespective of the numbers of people who play chess in each of the respective states, level of play, events/clubs organized to an absurd level.I suspect the exoticness of the location is of itself a positive, but the response suggests that other factors carry more weight. It may also be that the novelty of (possibly) going to the World Cup and getting a couple of games with a super-duper-GM isn't such a drawcard any more. Kevin Bonham analysed on the other thread the financial aspects, and on that basis there may be more attraction in saving your pennies for a major Open where you might also meet major GMs - Anand, Kramnik, Nakamura, even Carlsen have played such events.

As noted above it is possible that several Zonals in the near future will be in remote localities attractive to chess tourists but maybe not so much to the leading contenders. Perhaps the message of Guam is that what the top players should do if they don't like that is not to complain about it, which won't do any good. Instead they should run some sort of pre-Zonal, or if you prefer you could call it a pirate Zonal, among themselves, on the understanding that only the winner will enter the Zonal. Of course this would be an honour system as the losers couldn't be prevented from having a second bite, but it would be in everybody's interests to abide by the agreement.

Craig_Hall
26-12-2018, 04:41 PM
The purpose of a zonal is to find a world championship qualifier from the zone, not maximise number of entries or strength of the field. The occasional departure from Australia and New Zealand doesn't interfere with that goal.

MichaelBaron
27-12-2018, 10:45 AM
The purpose of a zonal is to find a world championship qualifier from the zone, not maximise number of entries or strength of the field. The occasional departure from Australia and New Zealand doesn't interfere with that goal.

I would think the idea behind holding the zonal is to find the strongest player in the zone. This is the purpose of all qualifying events - to identify strongest players who can progress to the next level.

Kevin Bonham
27-12-2018, 05:52 PM
I would think the idea behind holding the zonal is to find the strongest player in the zone. This is the purpose of all qualifying events - to identify strongest players who can progress to the next level.

It's to provide a qualification path to the World Cup and hence in potential indirectly to the World Championship, which is not necessarily the same thing as finding the strongest player. If some of the strongest players in a Zone choose not to attempt to qualify because they don't like the location or whatever else, that's up to them.

The direct titles (notoriously soft in our region) are provided by FIDE to draw in entries and make it easier to make the tournaments viable and attract strong players to them.

Moving the tournaments around provides a development opportunity and also an opportunity for organisers and arbiters. Obviously a lot of Australian and NZ players would prefer the zonal was always held in Australia or NZ, or failing that at least somewhere easier to get to like Fiji, but there isn't a compelling case for that in terms of the aims of the event.

Craig_Hall
27-12-2018, 07:37 PM
I would think the idea behind holding the zonal is to find the strongest player in the zone. This is the purpose of all qualifying events - to identify strongest players who can progress to the next level.

That's arguably the ideal winner, but they have to enter first, and while location is an important factor in that, there are many factors besides location which impact those decisions.

Vlad
04-02-2019, 09:22 PM
I hope that people who are politically correct enjoy this event the most. This is probably the worst I have observed in the chess scene so far.:hand:

MichaelBaron
05-02-2019, 10:58 PM
I hope that people who are politically correct enjoy this event the most. This is probably the worst I have observed in the chess scene so far.:hand:

Do not you worry, Vlad. Political correctness has no boundaries. We may be yet to witness a Zonal played at Kirabati in a few years...with participants playing underwater so the island gets a chance to host a zonal before being swallowed by the ocean :)

lost
06-02-2019, 05:32 AM
Originally Posted by Vlad
I hope that people who are politically correct enjoy this event the most. This is probably the worst I have observed in the chess scene so far.

Vlad, why do you say this is the worst chess event you have observed?


Do not you worry, Vlad. Political correctness has no boundaries. We may be yet to witness a Zonal played at Kirabati in a few years...with participants playing underwater so the island gets a chance to host a zonal before being swallowed by the ocean :)

Would there be an issue if there was a Zonal in Kiribati or any other island for that matter Michael?

lost

MichaelBaron
06-02-2019, 10:42 AM
Vlad, why do you say this is the worst chess event you have observed?



Would there be an issue if there was a Zonal in Kiribati or any other island for that matter Michael?

lost

The issue is...that as evident from the Guam event - nobody wishes to participate, therefore making the event unsuccessful.

Vlad
06-02-2019, 01:01 PM
The main goal of this event is to select the fittest to participate in the world cup and represent our zone to the best of his/her abilities. At the moment out of 9 GMs and 30+ IMs only 1 GM and 0 IM participating.

In a similar way, one can get Bill Gates to become the world chess champion. All is needed is to organise the world championship on the Moon. The fact that nobody else has 50 billion dollars to build a rocket is everybody else's problem.:hand:

BlairMandla
06-02-2019, 08:54 PM
Now just imagine what would happen if Max Illingworth fell ill and was unable to participate...

MichaelBaron
06-02-2019, 09:45 PM
Now just imagine what would happen if Max Illingworth fell ill and was unable to participate...

While I am not superstitious, I am not really comfortable considering someone falling ill. But if Max would withdraw for whatever reason (e.g. feels ''shy'' to play in such an event with no real opposition) one positive would be ...absurdity of holding the zonal in Guam would be made even more obvious.

BlairMandla
07-02-2019, 11:09 AM
Could also be a blessing in disguise.
FIDE would see us sending a candidate sub 2100 and possibly sub 2000 and potentially put some limitations of this farce.

Garvinator
07-02-2019, 12:20 PM
Could also be a blessing in disguise.
FIDE would see us sending a candidate sub 2100 and possibly sub 2000 and potentially put some limitations of this farce.

The limitations would most likely be either ending the Oceania zone and merging it into the Asia zone. Or making the winner of the Oceania Zone have to go through the Asia Zonal to get the spot in the World Cup.

MichaelBaron
07-02-2019, 12:32 PM
The limitations would most likely be either ending the Oceania zone and merging it into the Asia zone. Or making the winner of the Oceania Zone have to go through the Asia Zonal to get the spot in the World Cup.

I do not see it as a blessing but I wonder if ''popularity'' of the current zonal location will result in Future zonals NOT being held at such locations.
Everyone makes mistakes (or too eager to be politically correct) but shall we learn from those? Its not good to lose a game by falling into an opening trap but disappointing to fall into the same trap twice!

Becky
07-02-2019, 10:03 PM
Hmmm... by my count, there's 10 women players for a 9-round tournament. That's cutting it a bit fine. I wonder what would happen if one player can't make it.

I'm certainly going to enjoy the tournament, even if people think of it as a "farce". It's a great honor for me to represent Australia. I've been doing a lot of training recently, so hopefully it pays off and I do well. (I think it's time for a rematch, Julia! Haha.)

Tony Dowden
07-02-2019, 10:23 PM
Hmmm... by my count, there's 10 women players for a 9-round tournament. That's cutting it a bit fine. I wonder what would happen if one player can't make it.

I'm certainly going to enjoy the tournament, even if people think of it as a "farce". It's a great honor for me to represent Australia. I've been doing a lot of training recently, so hopefully it pays off and I do well. (I think it's time for a rematch, Julia! Haha.)
Yes, ten women at present but why not post in the Oceania Zonal thread?