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PHAT
09-12-2004, 01:03 PM
I recall, fighting tooth and nail to show that writing you move down before you move is against the spirit of the Laws of Chess. Now this by Stewart Reuben:


Dear sir,

I believe in the previous issue of the ACF newsletter that an arbiter wrote that writing the move down first was not being outlawed. This is quite wrong. Since I regard it as the biggest change in The Laws of Chess for the past 20 years, it deserves repeating anyway. The text is:

8.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibly as possible, in the algebraic notation (Appendix E), on the ‘scoresheet’ prescribed for the competition. It is forbidden to write the moves in advance.

A player may reply to his opponent's move before recording it, if he so wishes. He must record his previous move before making another. Both players must record the offer of a draw on the scoresheet. (Appendix E.12)

If a player is unable to keep score, an assistant, who is acceptable to the arbiter, may be provided by the player to write the moves. His clock shall be adjusted by the arbiter in an equitable way.

This will come into effect 1 July 2005. I opposed it as major changes are only supposed to happen every 12 years. However it is clearly correct not to allow people to make notes and has been wrong since FIDE ruled on the issue in 1970. All other changes are purely cosmetic.

Stewart Reuben

PHAT
09-12-2004, 01:37 PM
Question: If my opponent writes down his move before making it on the board, can I claim a win.

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 01:46 PM
Question: If my opponent writes down his move before making it on the board, can I claim a win.
No.
You should stop the clock and call the arbiter.

The arbiter will most likely just issue the player with a warning not to do it again.

If the player persists, you should stop the clock and again summon the arbiter.
In this case the arbiter would probably either penalise the player by deducting time from his clock or by adding time to your clock.

If after this if the player repeated the offence, then after summoning the arbiter I would expect the arbiter to declare that your opponent has lost.

Trent Parker
09-12-2004, 01:52 PM
But remeber the rules dont come into effect until mid next year!!!

I'm slowly converting myself. I do however find some missed moves on my scoresheet.....

Rincewind
09-12-2004, 02:21 PM
No.
You should stop the clock and call the arbiter.

The arbiter will most likely just issue the player with a warning not to do it again.

If the player persists, you should stop the clock and again summon the arbiter.
In this case the arbiter would probably either penalise the player by deducting time from his clock or by adding time to your clock.

If after this if the player repeated the offence, then after summoning the arbiter I would expect the arbiter to declare that your opponent has lost.

All this after 1st July 2005 and assuming the rules are not reworded from the form previously disseminated.

FM_Bill
28-05-2005, 10:12 AM
Writing the move first became popular in the 70s due to a book called 'Think Like a Grandmaster' by Kotov. Kotov also mentions discussing his games with other GMs while being played, which led Larsen to comment that Kotov admitting cheating.

I used to do this in the 70s, apart from being against the spirit and/or :P the actual rules, I highly recommend not to do it. It messes up the scoresheet, and leads to worse chess.

Garvinator
28-05-2005, 12:38 PM
After July 1, the players have no choice as it becomes illegal to write your move down before you play it.

Kevin Bonham
29-05-2005, 05:25 AM
When I dropped in to one of the Victorian clubs some of the players there were saying FIDE had already passed an interpretation ruling on this and that it was already illegal. This was the first I'd heard of it - anyone know?

antichrist
29-05-2005, 05:49 AM
I know a junior student of mine who later went onto master coaching was taught to do this so to check it out before playing. To get around it maybe the move could be written on the reverse side if not also printed on, or start from bottom upwards. I don't do it anyway.

Lucena
29-05-2005, 12:06 PM
When I dropped in to one of the Victorian clubs some of the players there were saying FIDE had already passed an interpretation ruling on this and that it was already illegal. This was the first I'd heard of it - anyone know?

Doesn't sound right to me.

Rincewind
29-05-2005, 12:23 PM
Doesn't sound right to me.

Me neither. Perhaps they were confusing it with the mobile phone ringing forfeit rule, where I believe this is the case.

Bill Gletsos
29-05-2005, 02:57 PM
Doesn't sound right to me.It definitely is incorrect. It will come into effect on 1st July 2005 as part of the new laws of chess.

antichrist
29-05-2005, 04:26 PM
After July 1 nothing wrong with writing moves on reverse side before making move?

Bill Gletsos
29-05-2005, 05:14 PM
After July 1 nothing wrong with writing moves on reverse side before making move?That would in my opinion be against even the current rules and as such would for the first offence draw a warning from the arbiter.

Davidflude
29-05-2005, 05:36 PM
Article 8 on recording moves makes it quite clear that it illegal to write the move in advance (unless the player is claiming a draw). This rule comes into force on 1.7.2005. A player can reply to an opponents move before recording his own move if he wishes but he must record prior moves before making another. That should lead to chaos. There is lots more. I suggest that players should read it all. Australian Chess volume 3 issue 1 lists the rules.

Bill Gletsos
29-05-2005, 05:57 PM
The post http://www.chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=48289&postcount=93 lists all the differences between the current laws and the new laws that come into effect from July 1st.

eclectic
29-05-2005, 05:57 PM
Article 8 on recording moves makes it quite clear that it illegal to write the move in advance (unless the player is claiming a draw). This rule comes into force on 1.7.2005. A player can reply to an opponents move before recording his own move if he wishes but he must record prior moves before making another. That should lead to chaos. There is lots more. I suggest that players should read it all. Australian Chess volume 3 issue 1 lists the rules.

re my highlighting ...

i've never understood this.

why isn't a player made to update their scoresheet before making a move?

isn't this "missing a move" stunt the cause of disputes in so called "blitzing sessions" where the absence of a time increment etc makes it applicable?

it leads to one of my pet hates too ... when you're creaming your opponent and they all of a sudden decide .... "er, .... sorry, i think i missed writing a move on move 20 ... (it's now move 87) ... may i please have a look at your scoresheet?"

like ...

:doh:
:whatthe:
:evil:
:crazy:

eclectic

Bill Gletsos
29-05-2005, 06:14 PM
What David said in the part you highlighted is not part of the rules.

The current wording of Artilce 8 is as follows:

In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibly as possible, in the algebraic notation (Appendix E), on the 'scoresheet' prescribed for the competition.
A player may reply to his opponent's move before recording it, if he so wishes. He must record his previous move before making another. Both players must record the offer of a draw on the scoresheet. (Appendix E.12)
If a player is unable to keep score, an amount of time, decided by the arbiter, shall be deducted from his allotted time at the beginning of the game.It is clear from this that the player is not required to record his opponents move before he replies to it. However the player must record his previous move before he makes another move.

This does not is not changed in the new 1st July 2005 laws. The new Artilce 8.1 with the differences between it and the current law highlighted is:

In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibly as possible, in the algebraic notation (Appendix E), on the ‘scoresheet’ prescribed for the competition. It is forbidden to write the moves in advance, unless the player is claiming a draw according to Article 9.2 or 9.3.
A player may reply to his opponent's move before recording it, if he so wishes. He must record his previous move before making another. Both players must record the offer of a draw on the scoresheet. (Appendix E.12)
If a player is unable to keep score, an assistant, who is acceptable to the arbiter, may be provided by the player to write the moves. His clock shall be adjusted by the arbiter in an equitable way.

antichrist
29-05-2005, 06:44 PM
But when writing the move on reverse side it may not be the actual move, as may change mind. And is not the official writing down of the move. And if not illegal can even be written down in pencil and rubbed out again afterwards.

Bill Gletsos
29-05-2005, 06:59 PM
But when writing the move on reverse side it may not be the actual move, as may change mind. And is not the official writing down of the move. And if not illegal can even be written down in pencil and rubbed out again afterwards.This would no doubt be considered a case of taking notes which is illegal under Article 12.2 and be subject to action by the arbiter under Article 13.4.

antichrist
29-05-2005, 07:29 PM
thanks

Bill Gletsos
31-05-2005, 03:02 PM
This is from a meeting between FIDE and the ACP (Association of Chess Professionals).


The ACP is against the new FIDE rule which forbids writing down the move before it is played on the board. FIDE welcomes players’ opinions on chess rules. The ACP will prepare proposals.

klyall
11-08-2005, 09:05 PM
Should I have called the arbiter last Friday night? My opponant wrote every move down before he played it.

ElevatorEscapee
11-08-2005, 10:45 PM
Only if you found that it particularly worried you during the game, klyall...

I suspect that enforcement of such a rule may well be akin to the "touch move" rule, where the player "offended against" isn't obliged to complain to the arbiter about it if they don't want to.

This thread reminds me of an old story going around a certain country Chess Club, where about twenty years ago, a player who couldn't quite get the grasp of writing down the moves was still given a scoresheet and advised to tick off each move as it was played so he could keep track of how many moves had been played before the time control was reached.

This player had noticed several players writing down their moves before they played them, so took to "ticking" his move off on the scoresheet before he actually played it.

In a game where he was under pressure, this could lead to the farcical situation where he would place a tick on his scoresheet when considering a move, look at the position a bit longer, suddenly realize that move he was considering was a mistake, which would lead him to then scribble out his tick, and a few moments later when he thought of a better move, place another tick next to it! :lol:

In a really tight game, he could get a string of three or four ticks going on just the one single move. :D

Bill Gletsos
11-08-2005, 11:32 PM
I suspect that enforcement of such a rule may well be akin to the "touch move" rule, where the player "offended against" isn't obliged to complain to the arbiter about it if they don't want to.I suspect the reason the player does not enforce it is because the opponent has actually made an inferior move to the one they would have made if forced to move the touched piece.

Garvinator
12-08-2005, 01:01 AM
Should I have called the arbiter last Friday night? My opponant wrote every move down before he played it.
Absolutely. Whether you agree with the rule or not, it is the current rule and players will only break previously learnt habits when they know the rule has changed and is actually enforced.

Also Klyall, I understand that you are in training to be an arbiter, is that correct?

Lucena
12-08-2005, 01:10 AM
That would in my opinion be against even the current rules and as such would for the first offence draw a warning from the arbiter.

And after that they remove one of your rooks from the board

Lucena
12-08-2005, 01:15 AM
I remember hearing a story of Judit Polgar being penalised for counting stuff off on her fingers during a game-can't remember where I heard that though

Kerry Stead
12-08-2005, 03:22 PM
Absolutely. Whether you agree with the rule or not, it is the current rule and players will only break previously learnt habits when they know the rule has changed and is actually enforced.

Also Klyall, I understand that you are in training to be an arbiter, is that correct?
Garvin, are you in training to be an arbiter as well?? ;)

eclectic
12-08-2005, 05:12 PM
i think the rule should be changed so that you have to pick up the piece you want to move with one of your feet and rest it in your head while at the same time notating the move you intend to play


eclectic

ElevatorEscapee
12-08-2005, 07:52 PM
i think the rule should be changed so that you have to pick up the piece you want to move with one of your feet and rest it in your head while at the same time notating the move you intend to play

Eclectic, would this not also require an amendment to the appendix regarding the application of the laws of chess to differently abled players? ;)


I suspect the reason the player does not enforce it is because the opponent has actually made an inferior move to the one they would have made if forced to move the touched piece.

That can be one reason, other reasons may be that the player "offended against" doesn't wish to cause a commotion, disrupt the game (and those surrounding it), or upset his/her opponent too much... of course if one believes they are in a completely winning position anyway, it is much easier to be magnanamous about such things. :)

Of course, some people will even try to manipulate their opponent's magnanimity in such cases. I remember the sorry tale that a certain president of a country Chess Club told me of when he played a youngster in a quickplay tournament in Melbourne a couple of years ago.

Early in the opening, Prez moved a bishop thereby pinning one of the youngster's knights to his queen. Youngster promptly reached out and touched his knight, and then screwed up his face, obviously in some distress, as if suddenly realizing his mistake.... "oh no!", he cried, tears welling up in his eyes, "I've touched it, now I've got to move it!"

Prez, feeling sympathy for the young child, leant over and whispered, "it's ok, you don't have to move it if you don't want to".

Youngster, not to be daunted, swallowed his tears and said: "No, I've touched it, I've got to move it... might as well get what I can for it", he said with stoicism, and promptly moved his pinned knight to capture one of Prez's pawns.

Prez, feeling sorry for the young tyke, and at the same time admiring the youngster's dertimination to stick to the rules, wanted to play a move other than capturing the Queen, but feared that Youngster would be even more offended if he felt that the adult was "letting him win", so, reluctantly, captured his young opponent's Queen.

"Now I win!", cried Youngster jubilantly, capturing Prez's King's Bishop's pawn with his Bishop with check, thereby forcing a variation of Legal's mate.

Normally, Prez would have been able to see and attempt to counter the mating threat, but he had been blinded by his compassion for his young opponent's plight.

White: Prez
Black: Youngster
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 Bc5 4.d3 Nc6 5.Nxc6 dxc6 6.Bg5

(This is where junior hastily touched his knight and put on his performance...)

6... Nxe4 ("sob...might as well get what I can for it" :doh: )

7.Bxd8

("and now I win!" :owned: )

7... Bxf2+ 8.Ke2 Bg4 mate :lol:

FM_Bill
06-07-2010, 08:44 PM
...Nxe4 gives black a winning position so the performance was not necessary.

I once played in a rapid against someone who wrote then about the next 8 moves for both players (there was a forcing sequence) on his time. He then blitzed the moves out.

I went to the arbiter who did nothing, while i did so my opponent had restarted my clock which I had stopped.