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PHAT
08-12-2004, 07:04 PM
A NSW player has received a 2 year ban for a serious matter at the NSW Open. That player continues to play plenty of chess and the NSWCA continues to process his games for rating free of charge.

What sought of state Association would behave like this. I think that the NSWCA needs a room of mirrors.

arosar
09-12-2004, 07:57 AM
Bill should just not rate any games where player X is involved.

AR

Trent Parker
09-12-2004, 09:39 AM
That player played in the Fischer's Ghost tournament.

It was my understanding that this player was banned from all NSWCA events... not non NSWCA events. And i thought that his games would not be rated...... But i sent it in and obviously it got rated.....

PHAT
09-12-2004, 09:44 AM
So, the question still stands. Does the NSWCA run NSW chess or not. Surely if they do, it would not ban a player for 2 years and then continue to process his games for rating, free!

Trent Parker
09-12-2004, 09:50 AM
Well......
to quote Bill from another thread...... what is submitted for rating by the acf will be published by the ACF. Given that i emailed the results directly to Bill in order to make the December ratings, i guess it is my fault for submitting the games.

PHAT
09-12-2004, 10:02 AM
... i guess it is my fault for submitting the games.

No. it is not your fault. The system is faulty. The SP file should have been forwared by BG back to Carot, who should vet the player details, remove player X and then return the modified SP file to BG.

If this di not happen, then the fault lies in the design of the submission/rating system.

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 10:13 AM
The NSWCA banned the player from NSWCA events and by extension from ACF events.

The NSWCA has no authority to stop other organisers from allowing the player to compete in their events.

Other players in such events would reasonably expect their games against the banned player to be rated.

As such if the event is submitted for rating all games are processed.

There is no facility in the rating system to rate only one side of a game, nor are there any plans by the ACF Rating Officers to introduce such a facility.

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 10:14 AM
Well......
to quote Bill from another thread...... what is submitted for rating by the acf will be published by the ACF. Given that i emailed the results directly to Bill in order to make the December ratings, i guess it is my fault for submitting the games.
Its not your fault, its just Sweeney being a total fool as usual.

PHAT
09-12-2004, 10:35 AM
There is no facility in the rating system to rate only one side of a game, nor are there any plans by the ACF Rating Officers to introduce such a facility.

So there is a problem with the system - and you, with a brain the size of a planet, cannot fix it. :hand:

ursogr8
09-12-2004, 10:48 AM
The NSWCA banned the player from NSWCA events and by extension from ACF events.

This part is clear.


The NSWCA has no authority to stop other organisers from allowing the player to compete in their events.

But this part needs drill-down. In VICTORIA, the CV only approve an event for rating purposes if it meets criteria laid down by CV. CV obviously feel they have the power to prescribe this. Are you saying the NSWCA has not laid any criteria? Or a criterion in respect to unaffiliated players, or a criterion in respect to banned players.


Other players in such events would reasonably expect their games against the banned player to be rated.
That would not be my expectation as an player affiliated with the State structure. I would expect that if my State took the extreme position of banning a player then I would not be forced to play him in an approved event. I would expect that the privileges of membership (i.e rating) would be withdrawn during the penalty period.



As such if the event is submitted for rating all games are processed.

And because of the expectation I described above, I would expect that only games between non-banned would be processed.


There is no facility in the rating system to rate only one side of a game, nor are there any plans by the ACF Rating Officers to introduce such a facility.

I don't think Matt was proposing this solution of rate_one_side.
And now that I see you list this solution, I would not be suppporting the proposition either. I am against what you list.
The game should not be rated if a banned player is involved.

starter

Ian Rout
09-12-2004, 10:50 AM
The NSWCA banned the player from NSWCA events and by extension from ACF events.

The NSWCA has no authority to stop other organisers from allowing the player to compete in their events.

Other players in such events would reasonably expect their games against the banned player to be rated.

As such if the event is submitted for rating all games are processed.

There is no facility in the rating system to rate only one side of a game, nor are there any plans by the ACF Rating Officers to introduce such a facility.
I think that's true, and ignoring games has an impact on the integrity of the rating system, which is always a difficulty in using the rating system as a form of leverage. However I'm not sure it's the full story.

In most instances tournaments are not organised by non-State Association bodies because the organisers are actively hostile to the association but simply to provide additional options for players, and those organisers might reasonably be expected to enforce State association bans if they are officially notified of them.

Apart from the issue of good citizenship, it would be in their interest to do so; I can imagine an organiser being in a certain amount of legal trouble if an incident occurred involving a player they had admitted knowing he was banned for intimidatory behaviour elsewhere.

arosar
09-12-2004, 10:55 AM
The NSWCA banned the player from NSWCA events and by extension from ACF events.

OK . . . .


The NSWCA has no authority to stop other organisers from allowing the player to compete in their events.

I don't accept this Bill. Does not the NSWCA, 'control' the playing of chess in NSW?

In any case, you may not have this 'authority' but you certainly have the 'power' to discourage other organisers from inviting player X by simply not rating any games where that player is involved.

Besides Bill, many - if not most (EDIT: if not all, even) - of player X's opponents are likely to be NSWCA members anyway. Therefore, to my mind you certainly have leverage.

You following me mate?


Other players in such events would reasonably expect their games against the banned player to be rated.

See above.

There is nothing to stop from you making a definitive action that any game played by player X will not be rated. It's really that simple.


There is no facility in the rating system to rate only one side of a game, nor are there any plans by the ACF Rating Officers to introduce such a facility.

There is no need for such a facility. We're trying to ban a player and making it unattractive to have him both as participant and opponent.

Are you with me mate?

AR

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 11:14 AM
As I said we have no authority over the other organiser.
We would like the organiser to not permit the banned player to compete in their event, but we cannot enforce this.

We were also unsure of the legal issues of such an action as stating up front that we would not rate any event in which the banned player participated.

Clearly there is no problem banning him from our events.
However by stating we would not rate events in which he played we would be quite possibly forcing the organiser to reject his participation so that the event could be rated. This is almost like some sort of secondary boycott.

Personally I would be in favour of refusing to rate events in which a banned player competes, but the Council felt that such an action was unfair to those other players who competed in the event as well as possible legal issues.

ursogr8
09-12-2004, 11:44 AM
As I said we have no authority over the other organiser.
We would like the organiser to not permit the banned player to compete in their event, but we cannot enforce this.
I think you have authorities in that you require an event to have APPROVED status before you accept for rating. You probably have a form to fill in. I know Gazza has a super form; do you want a copy?

I accept for the moment your current criteria may not exclude banned players from entering events. Let us leave this issue for a while and look at the other....JUST DON'T RATE games if a banned player is involved. You can do this.



We were also unsure of the legal issues of such an action as stating up front that we would not rate any event in which the banned player participated.

But how about the suggestion just to exclude games by the banned player.



Clearly there is no problem banning him from our events.
Good



However by stating we would not rate events in which he played we would be quite possibly forcing the organiser to reject his participation so that the event could be rated. This is almost like some sort of secondary boycott.

But how about the suggestion just to exclude games by the banned player.


starter

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 11:50 AM
I think you have authorities in that you require an event to have APPROVED status before you accept for rating. You probably have a form to fill in. I know Gazza has a super form; do you want a copy?
Thanks, but no thanks.


I accept for the moment your current criteria may not exclude banned players from entering events. Let us leave this issue for a while and look at the other....JUST DON'T RATE games if a banned player is involved. You can do this.

But how about the suggestion just to exclude games by the banned player.


But how about the suggestion just to exclude games by the banned player.

I answered that already. The council felt it was unfair to the banned players opponents not to rate the games.

PHAT
09-12-2004, 11:57 AM
The council felt it was unfair to the banned players opponents not to rate the games.

No one is asking you to reverse the rating operation.

EVERYONE here is expecting that you will take measures that will ensure that banned players are unable to play rated games for the duration of their ban.

ursogr8
09-12-2004, 12:02 PM
I answered that already. The council felt it was unfair to the banned players opponents not to rate the games.

Where did you say this previously?


Was it "Personally I would be in favour of refusing to rate events in which a banned player competes, but the Council felt that such an action was unfair to those other players who competed in the event as well as possible legal issues."

This reads that Council considered not rating a whole event.

The alternate suggestion is that you not rate the 7 games (involving the banned player) in the event. Has the Council regarded this?

starter

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 12:04 PM
No one is asking you to reverse the rating operation.
Who said anything about reversing the rating operation.


EVERYONE here is expecting that you will take measures that will ensure that banned players are unable to play rated games for the duration of their ban.
You are an idiot.

The council felt it was unreasonable to the banned players opponents not to rate the games.

Given the council has no authority over other organisers, then if they allow banned players to participate then the games will be rated if the event is submitted for rating.

PHAT
09-12-2004, 12:37 PM
Of the banned player's opponents, how many are NSWCA members? If none were, there is no problem. After all, why should non-member get their games rated anyway?

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 12:40 PM
Of the banned player's opponents, how many are NSWCA members? If none were, there is no problem. After all, why should non-member get their games rated anyway?
We have been through that already.
Its NSWCA policy to rate all events submitted for rating.

I know that his opponents included George Xie and Trent Parker.

PHAT
09-12-2004, 12:49 PM
We have been through that already.
Its NSWCA policy to rate all events submitted for rating.

WE, have not been through it> But if you have, you can tell us how many opponents were members. Tell us a number between 0 and 7.

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 01:02 PM
Where did you say this previously?


Was it "Personally I would be in favour of refusing to rate events in which a banned player competes, but the Council felt that such an action was unfair to those other players who competed in the event as well as possible legal issues."

This reads that Council considered not rating a whole event.
You should have also taken into account what i said in post #7.
Other players in such events would reasonably expect their games against the banned player to be rated.



The alternate suggestion is that you not rate the 7 games (involving the banned player) in the event. Has the Council regarded this?

See post #7.

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 01:15 PM
WE, have not been through it>
Of course we have been through it you fool.
You are well aware its NSWCA policy to rate all events whether the players are members or not.


But if you have, you can tell us how many opponents were members. Tell us a number between 0 and 7.
I do not know the names of all our members.
I know at least 4 of his 7 opponents were members as they have played in other NSWCA events this year. If GM Antic is also is a member then that makes it 5.

ursogr8
09-12-2004, 01:40 PM
You should have also taken into account what i said in post #7.
Other players in such events would reasonably expect their games against the banned player to be rated.



See post #7.

Sometimes Bill I feel you obfuscate to avoid the central question that a poster wishes to ask. You drag in peripheral questions that seem to divert attention. I don't know whether you do this deliberatately or are gentically pre-disposed to do it. But it sure is exasperating for the questioner.
Of course, sometimes the questioner is barking up the wrong tree. But if you do it simply to exhaust us, then it is intellectually dishonest.

So far you have convinced me that the NSWCA has ruled at Council level to rate tournaments even if a banned player is involved. But you have not convinced me there is a resolution to rate the handful of games involving the banned player. Maybe it was part of discussion; and maybe the NSWCA decided to rate games for banned players.

I think you are wrong as an Association to rate the games of banned players.

But, I am going to stop arguing now (mainly because the word banned has been banned from my lexicon by K. ;) ).

starter

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 01:49 PM
Sometimes Bill I feel you obfuscate to avoid the central question that a poster wishes to ask. You drag in peripheral questions that seem to divert attention. I don't know whether you do this deliberatately or are gentically pre-disposed to do it. But it sure is exasperating for the questioner.
Of course, sometimes the questioner is barking up the wrong tree. But if you do it simply to exhaust us, then it is intellectually dishonest.

So far you have convinced me that the NSWCA has ruled at Council level to rate tournaments even if a banned player is involved. But you have not convinced me there is a resolution to rate the handful of games involving the banned player. Maybe it was part of discussion; and maybe the NSWCA decided to rate games for banned players.

I think you are wrong as an Association to rate the games of banned players.

But, I am going to stop arguing now (mainly because the word banned has been banned from my lexicon by K. ;) ).

starter
Ok so even you can understand it, i'll spell it out.

The council was aware when it made the decision to ban the player that non NSWCA events he competed in would be rated and that his games would be rated.

ursogr8
09-12-2004, 02:00 PM
Ok so even you can understand it, i'll spell it out.

The council was aware when it made the decision to ban the player that non NSWCA events he competed in would be rated and that his games would be rated.

Bill

That wasn't so hard,,,, to come down my level. Thank you.

Now I understand the NSWCA position.

I just happen to disagree.

regards
starter

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 02:11 PM
Bill

That wasn't so hard,,,, to come down my level. Thank you.

Now I understand the NSWCA position.

I just happen to disagree.

regards
starter
I knew you would disagree even before you posted. ;)

Ian Rout
09-12-2004, 02:33 PM
Perhaps the approach should be that as the aim is to achieve a two-year ban but it only applies to about one-third of tournaments then the length of the ban should be six years?

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 02:39 PM
Perhaps the approach should be that as the aim is to achieve a two-year ban but it only applies to about one-third of tournaments then the length of the ban should be six years?
The NSWCA Constitution does not allow us to suspend anyone for more than two years.

shaun
09-12-2004, 03:26 PM
Of course the NSWCA could simply ask the tournament organisers not to allow the banned player to play in their tournaments. I know the ACTCA has a policy not to allow the entry of players who have been banned in another state to play in ACTCA events.

rob
09-12-2004, 04:30 PM
Of course the NSWCA could simply ask the tournament organisers not to allow the banned player to play in their tournaments. I know the ACTCA has a policy not to allow the entry of players who have been banned in another state to play in ACTCA events.

The CAWA has recently banned one of our stronger players until money owing is paid. As the WA clubs are members of CAWA he should not be able to compete in rated events in WA (clubs or otherwise). As we rarely have interstate players (mostly Kerry) we don't require ACTA's policy.

ursogr8
09-12-2004, 04:44 PM
Hey Matt

I am itching to see some metrics on this thread. And you are the thread initiator; so how about doing some progressive housekeeping and give us a summary_to_date.
Starting with the thread question, I count Amiel on post #2 as......well I think I will leave the task to the INITIATOR. Can you address? How many AYE and how many NAY?

starter

PHAT
09-12-2004, 04:49 PM
Sounds like every heavy weight in Australia is suggesting the NSWCA ought to be accountable for its turf and exercise some control over players in NSW.

Bill, are you going to tell all of them that they have "no credability." :owned:

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 04:50 PM
Sounds like every heavy weight in Australia is suggesting the NSWCA ought to be accountable for its turf and exercise some control over players in NSW.

Bill, are you going to tell all of them that they have "no credability." :owned:
The only fool with no credibility is you.

As for what other states may do that is not NSWCA's concern.

PHAT
09-12-2004, 04:55 PM
How many AYE and how many NAY?


6:1

Surely BG is embarrased.

PHAT
09-12-2004, 04:57 PM
As for what other states may do that is not NSWCA's concern.

That's the communty sprit we expect from you. No wonder the NSWCA stands in the way of reform of the ACF.

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 05:15 PM
6:1

Surely BG is embarrased.
No.

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 05:16 PM
That's the communty sprit we expect from you. No wonder the NSWCA stands in the way of reform of the ACF.
Other states opinions have no bearing on NSW.

PHAT
09-12-2004, 05:55 PM
Other states opinions have no bearing on NSW.

It would matter if the other states decided to kick us out of the Federation for being obstructionist.

shaun
09-12-2004, 06:04 PM
Before this turns into a NSW Chess centre type argument ("Even though I clearly attempted to attach a false meaning to what you said, I will now deny doing this and claim it was a misunderstanding"), let me clarify something.
The intent of my post was not to influence NSWCA policy. It was to make the point that tournament organisers are the people with the greatest control over who does and doesn't play in their tournaments. When I referred to the ACTCA in my previous post, it was their role as tournament organisers, rather than governing body, that I was speaking of.
Matt, I assume that you would not let any player banned by the NSWCA (or other state association) into a tournament you organised. Is this correct?

arosar
09-12-2004, 06:08 PM
It would matter if the other states decided to kick us out of the Federation for being obstructionist.

Now you're being ridiculous.

AR

Bill Gletsos
09-12-2004, 06:14 PM
Now you're being ridiculous.

AR
He is a fool.
He is always ridiculous.

PHAT
09-12-2004, 07:11 PM
Matt, I assume that you would not let any player banned by the NSWCA (or other state association) into a tournament you organised. Is this correct?

That is correct, with the proviso that I knew that the person was banned. At the present time there is nowhere that an organiser can gleen such info.

Kerry Stead
11-12-2004, 04:19 PM
The CAWA has recently banned one of our stronger players until money owing is paid. As the WA clubs are members of CAWA he should not be able to compete in rated events in WA (clubs or otherwise). As we rarely have interstate players (mostly Kerry) we don't require ACTA's policy.

I still haven't won a tourney interstate yet ... you never know what might happen down the track Rob. Am I really the only one crazy enough to play chess in Perth who isn't a local (when not playing in a national event of course)?? :think:

PHAT
11-12-2004, 10:46 PM
Banned player X apparently caused a fracas at the tourament that he played in while banned. If he had actually snotted a NSWCA member, I think there would be a case that the NSWCA failed in its duty of care for its members by not officially informing NSW chess clubs where many NSWCA members play and the members themselves of his banning.

This is not a wholey unlikely senario since player X has been "physical" on another occation some years ago.

Who controls chess in NSW? Not NSWCA it would seem.

Brian_Jones
12-12-2004, 07:13 AM
I still haven't won a tourney interstate yet ... you never know what might happen down the track Rob. Am I really the only one crazy enough to play chess in Perth who isn't a local (when not playing in a national event of course)?? :think:

No Kerry - I've played quite a few in Perth (though not recently) and won every single one of them. May I suggest you try the local beer!

Trent Parker
12-12-2004, 11:47 PM
Banned player X apparently caused a fracas at the tourament that he played in while banned.

Well....... the only fracas i can remember happened in the blitz tournament the week after the main tournament finished. Which was not rated.
Which makes me wonder...... who told you of this???

PHAT
13-12-2004, 12:00 AM
Well....... the only fracas i can remember happened in the blitz tournament the week after the main tournament finished. Which was not rated.
Which makes me wonder...... who told you of this???

Can't remmember ;)

asnyway. It doiesn't realy maater much to thestory. The dudewas out well out of order ad was stll palying and causing strife in nsw Chess while banned.

What wiil the NSWCA dio about it??/

Bill Gletsos
13-12-2004, 12:24 AM
Can't remmember ;)

asnyway. It doiesn't realy maater much to thestory. The dudewas out well out of order ad was stll palying and causing strife in nsw Chess while banned.

What wiil the NSWCA dio about it??/
He is already banned for the maximum period allowed for by the constitution.

What action is taken against him for his behaviour at the non NSWCA blitz event is up to its organiser.

rob
13-12-2004, 02:46 PM
I still haven't won a tourney interstate yet ... you never know what might happen down the track Rob. Am I really the only one crazy enough to play chess in Perth who isn't a local (when not playing in a national event of course)?? :think:

If you mean locals to be ppl from WA then 'yes' apart from the rare holiday visitor never seen again.

Some players in WA can hardly be considered as local to Perth: Thomas & Garry Donaldson from Albany (4 or 5 hours away) probably take almost as long to get to Perth as you! Thomas is WA's 2nd highest rated junior (likely to be highest soon), our top rated senior player is another rural player Julian Painter from Bunbury. The last weekender had Glenn Tomek (1920) and another player from Geraldton (3 hours I think).

Trizza
14-12-2004, 12:38 PM
If you mean locals to be ppl from WA then 'yes' apart from the rare holiday visitor never seen again.

Some players in WA can hardly be considered as local to Perth: Thomas & Garry Donaldson from Albany (4 or 5 hours away) probably take almost as long to get to Perth as you! Thomas is WA's 2nd highest rated junior (likely to be highest soon), our top rated senior player is another rural player Julian Painter from Bunbury. The last weekender had Glenn Tomek (1920) and another player from Geraldton (3 hours I think).

Bit of an underestimate there Rob - Geraldton is about 6 hours away.
Makes Glenn's 2nd place sound even better.