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Megaman
01-12-2004, 07:43 PM
Hello I'm new to Australian Tournament chess, I'm curious, the last ACF ratings list came out in September 2004 right? When is the next one due, December 2004 or January 2005? Do the ratings list come out every 3 months or every 4? Thank you.

Rincewind
01-12-2004, 07:50 PM
Hello I'm new to Australian Tournament chess, I'm curious, the last ACF ratings list came out in September 2004 right? When is the next one due, December 2004 or January 2005? Do the ratings list come out every 3 months or every 4? Thank you.

Hi Megaman. The answer is they were every 4 months but in the last year or so it has been every three months. March, June, September and December.

Their release is imminent.

Trent Parker
01-12-2004, 07:53 PM
And welcome! megaman. welcome to the forum!

Megaman
01-12-2004, 10:38 PM
One more quick question, I had a good tournament run recently(well, for MY standands anyway) and the last round I played was on 24th November 2004, will that tournament I played be counted for this upcoming December ratings list? Thank you! :)

Trent Parker
01-12-2004, 10:48 PM
Thanks Barry Cox and tparker for the welcoming, nice to find a strictly aussie chess forum. :D

One more quick question, I had a good tournament run recently and the last round I played was on 24th November 2004, will that tournament I played be counted for this upcoming December ratings list? Thank you! :)


The following tournaments have so far been submitted for rating in the Normal system.

ACT
29/10/2004 57 7 2004 Belconnen Club Championships
29/09/2004 25 11 ACT Open Championship 2004
27/09/2004 22 7 Murrimbidgee Masters
NSW
14/11/2004 55 7 2004 Coffs Harbour Open
26/10/2004 6 5 2004 Collies Champs Prelim A
26/10/2004 6 5 2004 Collies Champs Prelim B
02/11/2004 2 1 2004 Collies Champs Prelim B - Playoff
26/10/2004 6 5 2004 Collies Champs Prelim C
27/09/2004 18 7 2004 Mingara Chess Club Championships
08/11/2004 36 9 2004 St George Swiss
07/09/2004 18 9 2004 WOLLONGONG HANDICAP
07/09/2004 13 6 CCLCCC Winter 2004
07/11/2004 38 7 CCLCCC Gosford Open 2004
08/10/2004 20 8 CITY OF SYDNEY JUNIOR CHAMPIONSHIP - UNDER 15 - (6-8/10/
08/10/2004 11 8 CITY OF SYDNEY JUNIOR CHAMPIONSHIP - UNDER 18
30/10/2004 8 7 Ettalong Spring 2004
06/11/2004 2 2 Ettalong Spring 2004 Playoff
03/10/2004 17 9 Fairfield RSL Chess Club
20/09/2004 14 9 Hakoah Chess Club Championship 2004 Open
20/09/2004 19 9 Hakoah Chess Club Championship 2004 Under 1700
14/10/2004 46 7 Interleagues Premiership 2004
23/11/2004 69 9 John Ford Memorial 2004
31/10/2004 18 7 Laurieton Spring Open
01/10/2004 10 5 NSW GIRLS CHAMPIONSHIP - UNDER 18 - (30/9/2004-1/10/2004
31/10/2004 16 9 NSW State Championship 2004
31/10/2004 26 9 NSW State Championship 2004 U1600
31/10/2004 29 9 NSW State Championship 2004 U2000
02/08/2004 6 5 Newcastle Club 2004
21/11/2004 49 6 Ralph Seberry Memorial Weekender
22/11/2004 8 7 Rooty Hill Club Championship Division A 2004
22/11/2004 8 7 Rooty Hill Club Championship Division B 2004
22/11/2004 8 7 Rooty Hill Club Championship Division C 2004
22/11/2004 8 7 Rooty Hill Club Championship Division D 2004
22/11/2004 6 5 Rooty Hill Club Championship Division E 2004
27/09/2004 39 7 Rooty Hill Open 2004
04/10/2004 71 7 Ryde Eastwood Open 2004
21/11/2004 11 6 Western Teams
QLD
01/10/2004 38 6 2004 Australian Clubs' Teams Championship
12/09/2004 12 6 2004 BRISBANE JUNIOR MASTERS
03/10/2004 35 6 2004 Redcliffe Challenge
26/08/2004 20 4 BCC Steinitz Memorial 2004
04/11/2004 17 4 BCC Tal Memorial 2004
07/10/2004 23 6 Brisbane Chess Club Championship 2004
15/09/2004 10 9 Hardys FIDE Rated Classic 2004
06/09/2004 27 8 Junior Masters 190704
08/09/2004 22 7 Lou Wilkinson Memorial
19/09/2004 76 7 Nell van de Graaff Classic 2004
26/09/2004 12 7 Queensland Girls Champiosnhips 2004
25/09/2004 14 13 The Gap CC - One Hour 2004
SA
19/10/2004 89 9 2004 Pennant
23/08/2004 30 7 City of Adelaide Chess Championship 2004
03/10/2004 14 7 Labour Day 2004
TAS
06/10/2004 16 15 HICC Club Champs 2004
31/10/2004 27 7 Hobart Weekender 2004
12/09/2004 19 7 Launceston Weekender 2004
VIC
29/10/2004 118 7 Box Hill Open
17/08/2004 29 6 Box Hill Rainbow Championships
26/10/2004 33 7 Box Hill Spring Swiss
10/09/2004 132 8 CV Winter Interclub (Eastern Zone)
08/09/2004 46 7 CV Winter Interclub (Western Zone)
01/09/2004 45 7 Dandenong Grades Tournament
14/11/2004 26 5 Hobsons Bay Best in the West
16/10/2004 4 3 Hobsons Bay Invitational
27/10/2004 19 5 Hobsons Bay Koshnitsky Cup
13/07/2004 10 9 Latrobe Valley Club Championship
19/10/2004 13 13 Latrobe Valley Winter Championship
25/10/2004 33 9 Melbourne Open
03/10/2004 11 11 Victorian Championship
03/10/2004 10 9 Victorian Qualifying Tournament #1
03/10/2004 6 10 Victorian Qualifying Tournament #2
03/10/2004 10 9 Victorian Reserves Championship
WA
26/10/2004 12 7 2004 Fremantle Club Championship
24/11/2004 12 7 2004 Midland Open
25/09/2004 14 7 2004 WA Junior Chess Championship - Open
25/09/2004 13 7 2004 WA U14 Junior Chess Championship
12/09/2004 13 6 Willetton Open



If the tournament is on this list it will be rated. May i ask what tournament it was?

bobby1972
28-01-2005, 10:39 AM
I have a question for Bill,we have 2 turneys that finished in september last year at the MCC that have not been put in for rating ,when is the cut off to have this turneys rated at all , we are trying to get the details but it will take a while please can you tell us so as to be able to know the urgency,it is important to have them rated for the people who participated we believe it will make a big rating difference to many of our members.
thanks A.Pecori

Bill Gletsos
28-01-2005, 03:39 PM
I have a question for Bill,we have 2 turneys that finished in september last year at the MCC that have not been put in for rating ,when is the cut off to have this turneys rated at all , we are trying to get the details but it will take a while please can you tell us so as to be able to know the urgency,it is important to have them rated for the people who participated we believe it will make a big rating difference to many of our members.
thanks A.Pecori
No doubt you will be aware, I mentioned here on the BB the fact that MCC had failed to submit some tournaments for the December list even though those events had finished well before the December ratings cut-off.
If the MCC memebers are unhappy about that situation they should take it up with the MCC Committee to have the situation resolved.
Although the cut-off for the March list is Jan 31st we accept events that finish after that time up until about Feb 20th as well as events that arrive late. However the Ratings offciers are not happy at receiving events that finished months before after the cut-off arriving at the last minute, due to poor planning on the part of the tournament organisers.

Therefore lets just say you should get those old events to the CV Ratings Officer ASAP.

P.S. I would expect the MCC should be able to immediately submit the MCC Australia day weekender to the CV Ratings Officer.

bobby1972
28-01-2005, 04:04 PM
Thanks very much Bill for quick reply,i know we seem to have this problem all the time we are trying to avoid this in future.

Garvinator
28-01-2005, 05:16 PM
Thanks very much Bill for quick reply,i know we seem to have this problem all the time we are trying to avoid this in future.
Since this seems to be a consistent problem at mcc, maybe you need to get a different person to send along the sp files to the CV ratings officer.

eclectic
28-01-2005, 06:11 PM
Does the ACF has the same rule as FIDE ... that if an event is more than 6 months late it is NOT rated ?

Mark

Bill Gletsos
28-01-2005, 07:02 PM
Does the ACF has the same rule as FIDE ... that if an event is more than 6 months late it is NOT rated ?

Mark
No, however there would be very few events that would be submitted more than 6 mths late.

Duff McKagan
30-01-2005, 05:19 AM
Heh, the next ratings list is going to be hilarious. I've seen some precalculations already. I cant believe how that in a 7 round event if you lose two games to players at least 300 points lower than you and perform at a performance rating about 300 points lower that your rating goes down by less than 20 points, whereas if you hardly play throughout the year and have one reasonable tournament result, your rating goes up by nearly 150 points.
Having said that, i think everyone was gifted with some free points last year. Still, I'm a sitting duck, come eek me! :)

Rincewind
30-01-2005, 09:46 AM
Heh, the next ratings list is going to be hilarious. I've seen some precalculations already. I cant believe how that in a 7 round event if you lose two games to players at least 300 points lower than you and perform at a performance rating about 300 points lower that your rating goes down by less than 20 points, whereas if you hardly play throughout the year and have one reasonable tournament result, your rating goes up by nearly 150 points.
Having said that, i think everyone was gifted with some free points last year. Still, I'm a sitting duck, come eek me! :)

Duff, the answer to your question is probably contained in the confidence levels of the ratings in question.

For example, if a player with a RD of !! loses two games to player with ratings in the ?? range. Then the system has far more confidence that the first players rating is close to being right and will adjust the lower ratings up far more than the upper ratings down.

In the second case, rating shifts of 150 points (up or down) are not that hard to come by if the RD of that rating is something like ??.

You should not be too worried about what your rating is. For starters. I'm sure you don't play chess to manitain a rating of a particular level, if you do you will begin to hate chess. A rating is just a number which helps place players into levels of similar ability for things like Swiss draws and "ratings" prizes.

Also in the glicko system a ratings should not be considered a single number, but a range of numbers somewhere wherein your "true" ratings is thought to reside. The published rating is just the tentative mean of that range and the RD is an estimate as to the width of the range. For example, a rating of 1400?? should be thought of as a 'true' rating somewhere in the range 1050-1750.

Woodstocker
30-01-2005, 10:52 AM
Also in the glicko system a ratings should not be considered a single number, but a range of numbers somewhere wherein your "true" ratings is thought to reside. The published rating is just the tentative mean of that range and the RD is an estimate as to the width of the range. For example, a rating of 1400?? should be thought of as a 'true' rating somewhere in the range 1050-1750.

Mr Cox,

It would appear to me RD is s.d.

I assume the calculation for RD could not reasonably take into account games from the distant past.

What is the period of time or number of games used for calculation of RD?

IW

Bill Gletsos
30-01-2005, 11:20 AM
For example, a rating of 1400?? should be thought of as a 'true' rating somewhere in the range 1050-1750.
Assuming of course the worst case of an RD of 350.
However since ?? covers a range of RD's then it could be 1200-1600.

Rincewind
30-01-2005, 02:24 PM
Assuming of course the worst case of an RD of 350.
However since ?? covers a range of RD's then it could be 1200-1600.

That's true but they are not absolute limits anyway. It was meant as more of a qualitative example.

Bill Gletsos
30-01-2005, 02:27 PM
That's true but they are not absolute limits anyway. It was meant as more of a qualitative example.
I knew you knew, but wasnt sure others would realise it.

DoroPhil
30-01-2005, 03:35 PM
Actually, what are the absolute limits? Like !! means RD in the range of 15 to 25, ! is for RDs from 25 to..., etc?

Bill Gletsos
30-01-2005, 03:58 PM
Actually, what are the absolute limits? Like !! means RD in the range of 15 to 25, ! is for RDs from 25 to..., etc?
I dont wish to publish them other than to say that the lowest RD possible is 30 and the highest is 350.

Rincewind
30-01-2005, 05:22 PM
Actually, what are the absolute limits? Like !! means RD in the range of 15 to 25, ! is for RDs from 25 to..., etc?

There really are no absolute limits anyway. It is just a matter of the further you get from the mean the more unlikely it is that you are near that players 'true' rating. Someone with a rating of 1000!! could have a 'true' rating of 2500, but I would bet my shirt against it.

As Bill said above there is roughly a decimal order of magnitude between the highest RD and the lowest.

Cat
30-01-2005, 11:40 PM
The published rating is just the tentative mean of that range and the RD is an estimate as to the width of the range. For example, a rating of 1400?? should be thought of as a 'true' rating somewhere in the range 1050-1750.


You're telling me it's bloody tentative! Why don't we just increase the RD to 1000 and then the ratings will be really accurate!?

Bill Gletsos
31-01-2005, 09:54 AM
You're telling me it's bloody tentative! Why don't we just increase the RD to 1000 and then the ratings will be really accurate!?
That statement as usual just demonstrates your complete lack of understanding about ratings and the Glicko system in particular.

pax
31-01-2005, 11:54 AM
I dont wish to publish them other than to say that the lowest RD possible is 30 and the highest is 350.

Do you mean the actual RD's, or the ranges for the designations (!!,! etc) or both?

Why don't you wish to publish them? It seems odd to me, since in Glicko the RD is part of your rating. One ought to be entitled to know what it is!

Bill Gletsos
31-01-2005, 12:17 PM
Do you mean the actual RD's, or the ranges for the designations (!!,! etc) or both?
Both.


Why don't you wish to publish them? It seems odd to me, since in Glicko the RD is part of your rating. One ought to be entitled to know what it is!
Because if we publish them some dope is likely to argue that their RD or their symbol should be different because they are clearly more reliable/less reliable than player X.

pax
31-01-2005, 01:30 PM
Both.


Because if we publish them some dope is likely to argue that their RD or their symbol should be different because they are clearly more reliable/less reliable than player X.

Come on Bill, give people a bit of credit. Do you get many arguments about ratings because "I am better than player X therefore my rating should be higher"? Perhaps you should keep the whole rating list secret to prevent such debates?

My suggestion would be to include RD on the master list, but not on the "active player" list. The latter is where most people go to find their rating, and leaving RD off that would seem sensible for simplicity. I can't see any reason to prevent people from finding out the RD's.

Bill Gletsos
31-01-2005, 01:50 PM
Come on Bill, give people a bit of credit. Do you get many arguments about ratings because "I am better than player X therefore my rating should be higher"? Perhaps you should keep the whole rating list secret to prevent such debates?
I've had a few.


My suggestion would be to include RD on the master list, but not on the "active player" list. The latter is where most people go to find their rating, and leaving RD off that would seem sensible for simplicity. I can't see any reason to prevent people from finding out the RD's.
The RD will not be published.

pax
31-01-2005, 02:25 PM
The RD will not be published.

Fine, but what's the real reason?

Bill Gletsos
31-01-2005, 11:13 PM
Thanks very much Bill for quick reply,i know we seem to have this problem all the time we are trying to avoid this in future.
I have so far received the following MCC events for rating:
MCC Australia Day Weekender
MCC Christmas Swiss
MCC Fitzroy Open
MCC Melbourne Cup Weekender
Melbourne Under 2000
Melbourne Under 1600

DoroPhil
01-02-2005, 07:35 AM
I have so far received the following MCC events for rating:
MCC Australia Day Weekender
MCC Christmas Swiss
MCC Fitzroy Open
MCC Melbourne Cup Weekender
Melbourne Under 2000
Melbourne Under 1600


And why not publish the crosstables/ final standings/ expected rating changes for those tournaments for everyone to see?

Rincewind
01-02-2005, 08:45 AM
And why not publish the crosstables/ final standings/ expected rating changes for those tournaments for everyone to see?

I assume the first two of these would have been published already elsewhere. The third is not as easy as it sounds since the rating change for a single game, or set of games, is not independent of other results. So a players performance in one tournament (as yet unreceived) could affect not only his rating change but that of all of his opponents. As you can see, running mini rating calculations for every tournament would not only be time consuming but also have little or no benefit.

Bill Gletsos
01-02-2005, 10:43 AM
And why not publish the crosstables/ final standings/ expected rating changes for those tournaments for everyone to see?
It isnt my responsability as ratings officer to publish crosstables/final standings. That is the responsability of the organisers. As such I suggest you take it up with them.

As for expected rating changes of individual tournaments that isnt going to happen as anything published would be misleading.
Tournaments for the period are processed simultaneously. That way ratings can be assigned where possible to unrated players.
Also as previously explained not only on the BB but also at the time on the ACF web site and in ACF Bulletin #276, intermediate ratings are used for the players opponents not their published ratings at the start of the period.

bobby1972
01-02-2005, 03:01 PM
Thanks bill,that was quicker than any of us expected,good to see.we will try from know on to get the turneys in quickly thanks

DoroPhil
01-02-2005, 03:55 PM
It isnt my responsability as ratings officer to publish crosstables/final standings. That is the responsability of the organisers. As such I suggest you take it up with them.

I am not saying that this is your responsibility by any means, Bill. But it would be nice if you could post what you have for others to see - I don't think that this info is available elsewhere.

Bill Gletsos
01-02-2005, 05:21 PM
I am not saying that this is your responsibility by any means, Bill.
It came across as more of a demand than a request.


But it would be nice if you could post what you have for others to see - I don't think that this info is available elsewhere.
Now this is all you needed to say.;)

I'll try and post them later tonight.

Bill Gletsos
01-02-2005, 06:23 PM
I have posted them over in their relevant threads in Tournaments forum.

DoroPhil
02-02-2005, 08:11 AM
I have posted them over in their relevant threads in Tournaments forum.

Thanks Bill.

rob
07-02-2005, 02:16 PM
Bill,

You should have received the WA rated tourneys in the last few days. As Fred's been extra busy I had to manually enter all results and players details from the 5 divisions of the Respini.

Cheers,

Rob

Bill Gletsos
07-02-2005, 02:17 PM
Bill,

You should have received the WA rated tourneys in the last few days. As Fred's been extra busy I had to manually enter all results and players details from the 5 divisions of the Respini.

Cheers,

Rob
Yes, he sent them to me on the weekend.

pax
07-02-2005, 02:24 PM
Bill,

You should have received the WA rated tourneys in the last few days. As Fred's been extra busy I had to manually enter all results and players details from the 5 divisions of the Respini.

Cheers,

Rob

Gee, that must have been fun ;)

rob
07-02-2005, 03:19 PM
As Fred's been extra busy I had to manually enter all results and players details from the 5 divisions of the Respini.


Gee, that must have been fun ;)

The Metro Club Championship is also 56 ppl in 5 divisions but as I'm playing in this one I can enter results regularly - in the 10 player 'A' division after 2 rounds I'm a point clear :)

ursogr8
11-02-2005, 08:32 AM
Bill

BHCC will try to clear tonight through the VIC Ratings Officer

>Nov allegro
>Xmas swiss
>Summers swiss
>January allegro


starter

Bill Gletsos
13-02-2005, 11:35 AM
Tournaments currently submitted for Normal rating.


Tournaments Rated
ACF
05/12/2004 25 5 2004 National Schools Finals Primary Girls Division
05/12/2004 27 5 2004 National Schools Finals Primary Open Division
05/12/2004 25 5 2004 National Schools Finals Secondary Girls Division
05/12/2004 30 5 2004 National Schools Finals Secondary Open Division
21/01/2005 4 3 2005 Australian Junior Under 12 Girls Finals Division 1
21/01/2005 4 3 2005 Australian Junior Under 12 Girls Finals Division 2
17/01/2005 8 7 2005 Australian Junior Under 12 Girls Prelim
21/01/2005 59 9 2005 Australian Junior Under 12 Open
21/01/2005 17 11 2005 Australian Junior Under 18 Girls
21/01/2005 86 11 2005 Australian Junior Under 18 Open
09/01/2005 75 11 2005 Lidums Australian Open
05/01/2005 12 8 2005 Mt Buller Minor
04/02/2005 60 9 2005 Oceania Zonal Open
04/02/2005 17 9 2005 Oceania Zonal Womens
ACT
07/12/2004 18 5 2004 Griffin Tournament
05/12/2004 29 6 2004 Tuggeranong Vikings Weekender
NSW
07/12/2004 6 5 2004 Collies Champs 01-06
07/12/2004 6 5 2004 Collies Champs 07-12
07/12/2004 6 5 2004 Collies Champs 13-18
12/12/2004 58 7 2004 Fairfield Summer Cup
04/11/2004 10 6 2004 Newcastle District Championship
06/12/2004 23 9 Berger Cup 2004
07/12/2004 10 9 Coffs Harbour Club Championship 2004
06/12/2004 33 11 Manly Spring Tournament
05/12/2004 39 7 NSW Country Teams 2004
30/01/2005 77 7 NSWCA Australia Day Weekender 2005
06/01/2005 73 9 NSWJCL New Year Tournament - 4-6/1/2005
06/02/2005 36 7 Newcastle Open 2005
01/12/2004 5 5 Ryde Eastwood Club Champ Final 2004
01/02/2005 39 7 St. George Summer Open 2004-2005
QLD
11/10/2004 21 8 Gold Coast Junior Masters Term 4
SA
29/01/2005 17 8 City of Adelaide Junior
VIC
16/12/2004 13 7 Ballarat John Holmes Memorial
10/12/2004 80 5 Box Hill Christmas Swiss
14/12/2004 41 6 Box Hill Summer Swiss
08/12/2004 52 9 Dandenong Club Championship
11/12/2004 20 7 Elwood Club Championship
21/10/2004 20 7 Frankston Club Championship
23/01/2005 21 5 MCC Australia Day Weekender
19/12/2004 48 5 MCC Christmas Swiss
20/12/2004 30 7 MCC Fitzroy Open
02/11/2004 16 7 MCC Melbourne Cup Weekender
25/10/2004 33 9 Melbourne Open
23/08/2004 14 7 Melbourne Under 1600
23/08/2004 26 7 Melbourne Under 2000
WA
18/12/2004 11 11 2004 Respini A
18/12/2004 12 11 2004 Respini B
18/12/2004 12 11 2004 Respini C
18/12/2004 11 11 2004 Respini D
18/12/2004 10 9 2004 Respini E
05/12/2004 27 6 2004 Xmas Open
16/12/2004 14 7 City Of Fremantle 2004

Bill Gletsos
13-02-2005, 11:37 AM
Tournaments currently submitted for rapid rating.

Tournaments Rated
ACF
01/01/2005 44 7 2005 Australian Open Rapid Play
19/01/2005 64 7 Australian Junior Rapid Championships 2005
ACT
04/12/2004 53 15 2004 ACT Rapid Championship
15/12/2004 59 7 2004 Curtin Invitational
13/11/2004 12 7 Street Chess 13 November 2004
15/01/2005 14 7 Street Chess 15 January 2005
18/12/2004 18 7 Street Chess 18 December 2004
18/09/2004 12 7 Street Chess 18 September 2004
20/11/2004 12 7 Street Chess 20 November 2004
21/08/2004 8 7 Street Chess 21 August 2004
22/01/2005 14 7 Street Chess 22 January 2005
28/08/2004 6 7 Street Chess 28 August 2004
29/01/2005 14 7 Street Chess 29 January 2005
30/10/2004 14 7 Street Chess 30 October 2004
06/11/2004 16 7 Street Chess 6 November 2004
08/01/2005 16 7 Street Chess 8 January 2005
QLD
07/11/2004 32 5 2004 GPS Junior Championship
SA
26/12/2004 73 7 Australian Allegro Chess Championship
01/02/2005 36 5 February Allegro 2004
23/11/2004 19 5 November Allegro 2004
VIC
07/01/2005 30 5 Box Hill Allegro (January)
14/01/2005 32 5 Box Hill Allegro 2 (January)
22/01/2005 12 7 Elwood Rapid Play Tournament

Trizza
13-02-2005, 02:31 PM
Yay! :)
My rating should be going up.
Beginning to wonder if I'd forgotten how to do it after last year.

Bill Gletsos
13-02-2005, 03:43 PM
BTW, I am thinking of adding lists for Top U18, U14 and U10 to go with the existing Top U20, U16 and U12.

What do people think?

Oepty
13-02-2005, 04:13 PM
Bill, I am not sure whose typo it is, but it the 2005 February Allegro that is being submitted for SA rapid, not 2004 I believe.
As for the other underage lists. Why not if you want to do it?
Scott

Bill Gletsos
13-02-2005, 04:43 PM
Bill, I am not sure whose typo it is, but it the 2005 February Allegro that is being submitted for SA rapid, not 2004 I believe.Thanks, I have corrected it.

Alan Shore
13-02-2005, 05:09 PM
BTW, I am thinking of adding lists for Top U18, U14 and U10 to go with the existing Top U20, U16 and U12.

What do people think?

If it's a simple thing to do, then sure. I bet juniors would like to know where they are for their agegroup in relation to others in Australia.

jenni
13-02-2005, 07:01 PM
BTW, I am thinking of adding lists for Top U18, U14 and U10 to go with the existing Top U20, U16 and U12.

What do people think?
I think it is an excellent idea - kids love seeing their names in these lists and it will give more of them an opportunity.

ursogr8
13-02-2005, 07:59 PM
Bill

It is a great idea.
Your ratings (various) are our best selling products to parents.

regards
starter

Trizza
14-02-2005, 12:07 PM
Agree completely.
If you are willing to do it Bill I think it would be very interesting to look at the top juniors in each (smaller) age group.

pax
14-02-2005, 02:25 PM
BTW, I am thinking of adding lists for Top U18, U14 and U10 to go with the existing Top U20, U16 and U12.

What do people think?

:clap: :clap:

I've always thought it a little odd that there was no u18 list, when our national junior titles are u18. It also seems a bit pointless having an u20 list (apart from the ego trip), given that there are no national events for u20s (as far as I know). I suppose it is useful when considering selections for international u20 events (Asian junior, world junior etc)..

rob
14-02-2005, 02:55 PM
BTW, I am thinking of adding lists for Top U18, U14 and U10 to go with the existing Top U20, U16 and U12.

What do people think?

I think the majority of ppl would be in favour of this :)

jenni
14-02-2005, 03:17 PM
It also seems a bit pointless having an u20 list (apart from the ego trip), given that there are no national events for u20s (as far as I know). I suppose it is useful when considering selections for international u20 events (Asian junior, world junior etc)..

The Australian Young Masters is an under 20's event and I found the list quite useful when organising it last year.

Thunderspirit
14-02-2005, 06:01 PM
Bill

It is a great idea.
Your ratings (various) are our best selling products to parents.

regards
starter

Over the years various state's and territories have made the grave mistake to use the rating system as a marketing tool. Eg "your son/daughter can get a rating, and then judge themselves against their peers."

This creates a huge problem. Most of these kids only play at other junior clubs which is fine, but the ratings they produce will be lower than other players, because of the others in the pool. The problem arises when some of these move on to club chess/weekenders and then start to beat up the oldies, which they hate... U make the problem worse when players who don't need't get a rating do so.... those who will rise up the ranks and get a rating when they get there.
This is one reason I support a floor in the ratings. Whether it 800/1000 or 1200, it doesn't really worry me though 800 would be my personal choice. I was going through an old ratings from 1975 looking at the ACT players that I knew... there were only 34 on the list, 1 rated below 1100. And I did reckonise a few names as well... but to protect the gracefully aging I'll hush....

shaun
14-02-2005, 06:09 PM
:clap: :clap:

I've always thought it a little odd that there was no u18 list, when our national junior titles are u18. It also seems a bit pointless having an u20 list (apart from the ego trip), given that there are no national events for u20s (as far as I know). I suppose it is useful when considering selections for international u20 events (Asian junior, world junior etc)..

Hand goes up .....

When I introduced the best Under X lists into the rating booklet I lifted the idea directly from the USCF rating list which had U/20, U/16, U/12. Thinking back 15 or so years I cannot remember whether there was some other reason for using this division (the ACF flirting with juniors as under 20's perhaps) or I was just attracted by the mathematical arrangement.

Denis_Jessop
14-02-2005, 07:44 PM
BTW, I am thinking of adding lists for Top U18, U14 and U10 to go with the existing Top U20, U16 and U12.

What do people think?


I agree that this is an excellent idea that brings the lists more into line with the divisions that exist in practice. By all means retain the U20 list.

Denis Jessop

Bill Gletsos
14-02-2005, 10:36 PM
I'd already coded it before I asked the question. ;)

Cat
14-02-2005, 11:17 PM
I'd already coded it before I asked the question. ;)


Sounds great Bill, can't wait to see the next list!

Alan Shore
15-02-2005, 12:28 AM
If it's as easy as you make out, how about making top lists per state and top rapid lists too?

Ian Rout
15-02-2005, 08:05 AM
If it's as easy as you make out, how about making top lists per state and top rapid lists too?
In the case of State lists it may be an area more appropriate for State associations to add value - this would allow them to adopt their own standards and layouts. For instance they might want to include clubs on the listing. The ACTCA webmaster has recently started listing the Top Ten but I think only includes !! on the list.

pax
15-02-2005, 08:25 AM
.. or I was just attracted by the mathematical arrangement.

Geek ;)

(like I can talk)

pax
15-02-2005, 08:30 AM
The Australian Young Masters is an under 20's event and I found the list quite useful when organising it last year.

Actually, I wonder if having more "youth" events with age limits higher than 18 (maybe even as high as 23 or 25) might be one way of encouraging more strong juniors to make the transition to senior chess.

In fact, I would go so far as to say maybe the national juniors could become u20 in line with the FIDE title (although it would be a fight against tradition to make this change).

shaun
15-02-2005, 03:55 PM
Might be worth moving the Juniors->Adult bits of this thread to general discussion, so people can comment without going off-topic.

Trizza
15-02-2005, 05:34 PM
In the case of State lists it may be an area more appropriate for State associations to add value - this would allow them to adopt their own standards and layouts. For instance they might want to include clubs on the listing. The ACTCA webmaster has recently started listing the Top Ten but I think only includes !! on the list.

In the CAWA newsletter the top 20 players from WA are listed - it includes all players who are active on the list (regardless of rating symbol).

Having a top rapid players list is an interesting idea though.

jenni
15-02-2005, 06:46 PM
Might be worth moving the Juniors->Adult bits of this thread to general discussion, so people can comment without going off-topic.
done

rob
16-02-2005, 02:41 PM
In the CAWA newsletter the top 20 players from WA are listed - it includes all players who are active on the list (regardless of rating symbol).

Having a top rapid players list is an interesting idea though.

The top 20 may be on the active list, but about half are very inactive with some of these more likely to drop off the active list than to play rated games :(

For the list of all WA players, for those with a !! or a ! I'm wondering about providing a column with the rating change - what do you think?

Trizza
16-02-2005, 03:52 PM
The top 20 may be on the active list, but about half are very inactive with some of these more likely to drop off the active list than to play rated games :(

For the list of all WA players, for those with a !! or a ! I'm wondering about providing a column with the rating change - what do you think?

Active players on the December list refers to
"Players Active from 01/Mar/2003"

Quite a few of the top 20 play occasionally (1 or 2 tournaments a year) and so I presume they will continue to be considered 'active'. Maybe you should do it like the ACF lists: you need a ! or !! to get on the list.

As for the extra column with the rating change - I'd be interested but only do it if you have the time (and motivation).

Ian Rout
16-02-2005, 04:31 PM
The top 20 may be on the active list, but about half are very inactive with some of these more likely to drop off the active list than to play rated games :(


This is why ACTCA only lists !! in it's Top Ten. The principle is that you can't be in the Top Ten of something you don't do, however good you would be if you did do it. In the days of rampant deflation people actually ascended the ladder by just not playing.

We also used to have a problem of itinerants being listed as ACT long after leaving. Paul Dozsa played the Doeberl Cup then stayed for half a club tournament and a jail term, after which he remained on the ACT list for about seven years.

rob
16-02-2005, 05:08 PM
Active players on the December list refers to
"Players Active from 01/Mar/2003"

Quite a few of the top 20 play occasionally (1 or 2 tournaments a year) and so I presume they will continue to be considered 'active'. Maybe you should do it like the ACF lists: you need a ! or !! to get on the list.

Will do - for March 2005 this should get all our 'active' players rated over 1900 :)

DoroPhil
20-02-2005, 09:32 PM
Is there any reason March2005 ratings are not out yet? What's the point of waiting till March 1? Surely, everything's submitted and calculated already...

Bill Gletsos
20-02-2005, 10:10 PM
Is there any reason March2005 ratings are not out yet?Yes because it isnt March yet. They arent called the Mid to late Februruary ratings.
Of course you carry on with this rubbish every rating period.

What's the point of waiting till March 1? Surely, everything's submitted and calculated already...No.
Toukley hasnt been submitted.
Also I'm informed that additional VIC events will be coming.

Trent Parker
21-02-2005, 11:52 AM
According to Barry's glicko calc, I'd have an increase of 97 ratings points.... but i dont trust it.... because of what happened last ratings period.... :D

Bill Gletsos
21-02-2005, 12:03 PM
According to Barry's glicko calc, I'd have an increase of 97 ratings points.... but i dont trust it.... because of what happened last ratings period.... :DNot counting Toukley you have 27 rateable games and they dont add up to an increase close to 97 points.

Rincewind
21-02-2005, 12:17 PM
According to Barry's glicko calc, I'd have an increase of 97 ratings points.... but i dont trust it.... because of what happened last ratings period.... :D

:D I'll have to arrange collecting on that bet at some time. :whatthe:

This time I have only 5 rateable games by my calculation. Perhaps we could have a second wager on the rating point increase per rated game. :devious:

Ian Rout
21-02-2005, 01:08 PM
If we're conducting a test of Barry's calculator, it gives my next rating as 1903. I believe this to be correct as I have verified it using the back of an envelope.

Rincewind
21-02-2005, 02:08 PM
If we're conducting a test of Barry's calculator, it gives my next rating as 1903. I believe this to be correct as I have verified it using the back of an envelope.

Let's hope email never completely replaces the snail variety or else rough estimates will never be able to be performed. I suppose you could use the back of a printed email. But that is not quite the same thing - and if you need a A4 sized piece of paper, you are probably spending too much effort on it.

My own estimate is 1844. I'd be interested in any feedback people have as to the accuracy of the estimator/calculator.

Bill Gletsos
21-02-2005, 04:54 PM
My own estimate is 1844.Spot on.

Bill Gletsos
21-02-2005, 04:55 PM
If we're conducting a test of Barry's calculator, it gives my next rating as 1903. A little low based on 11 games.

rob
21-02-2005, 05:38 PM
I guess my next rating will be 1937!!

Bill Gletsos
21-02-2005, 05:50 PM
I guess my next rating will be 1937!!Well done.

Of course I have no intention of doing this for very Tom, Dick or Harry. :hand:

Rincewind
21-02-2005, 07:17 PM
Well done.

Is that for Rob, or my estimator? :rolleyes:


Of course I have no intention of doing this for very Tom, Dick or Harry. :hand:

I was actually hoping could estimate their changes here and report back after the ratings were released. I didn't intend for immediate verification. Still appreciate the effort, thanks. ;)

Bill Gletsos
21-02-2005, 09:29 PM
Is that for Rob, or my estimator? :rolleyes:Your estimateor. ;)

Trent Parker
22-02-2005, 09:27 AM
Ok based on the following Results from:
Toukley U2000
January Weekender
Mt buller Minor
Fairfield Summer Cup and...
NSW Country teams champs

I have had te following results
Country Team Ch.
beat Barry Mann (1554!)
beat Krajina, Sead (1732)
beat Hoseman, Bill (996)
Lost to Andrew Phillips (unr)
beat Gibson, David (Unr)
Beat Bonjekovic, Tom (1497!)
Drew Reynolds, Paul (1636!!)

Fairfield Winter Cup
Lost to Urdanegui, Bruce (1725!!)
Lost to Hoole, Jey (1524!!)
Vihang, Shah forfeited, no rating change
Lost to Escribano, Jose (1611!!)
Beat Gary Losh (1524!!)
Lost to Bob Sewell (1511!!)
Beat Samantha Frerer (941)

Mt Buller Minor
Lost to Katnic, Eddy (1591)
Beat Lance Chiddy (932)
Lost to Corey White (1208)
Beat Matthew Sweeney (1324!!)
Beat McCulloch, Rob (1442!!)
Beat Eime, Roland (1434)
Lost to Marks, Joe (1481)
Beat Rory Chiddy Unrated.

January Weekender
Lost to Paxman, Johnathan (1790??)
Lost to Dickson, Ian (1560!!)
Beat Beaven, Dieter (unr)
Lost to Frank Low (1609)
Beat Soltysik, Sebastian (840?)
Lost to Losh, Gary (1524!!)
Beat Szeto, Johnathan (1484)

Therefore Rating before Toukley according to Glicko Calc of BJCox is 1414

Toukley U2000
Lost to Hannagan, Peter (1780)
Beat Dickson, Ian (1560!!)
Lost to Mark Baterowicz (1608!!)
Beat Chiddy, Rory (unr)
Beat Hoole, Jey (1524!!)
Lost to Ali, Mos (1734!!)
Beat Smit, George (1555!!)

Rating after Toukley 1438


Not counting Toukley you have 27 rateable games and they dont add up to an increase close to 97 points.

So after toukley i should have a rating at about 1438. an increase of 71. But all those unrateds will be a factor.
Yeah Bill, I Stuffed up. I did it in several stages and added the results of the country teams by putting the new rating in the top and entering the results after that. Anyhow I stuffed up.

Bill Gletsos
22-02-2005, 11:53 AM
Therefore Rating before Toukley according to Glicko Calc of BJCox is 1414Yes that is very close.

Rating after Toukley 1438Still reasonably close.

Paul S
22-02-2005, 01:18 PM
Hi Bill

What is the cut-off date for tournaments to be submitted for the March Ratings?

Paul

Bill Gletsos
22-02-2005, 01:27 PM
Hi Bill

What is the cut-off date for tournaments to be submitted for the March Ratings?

Paul
Saturday.
However if they didnt finish recently then the organiser is slack if they havent submitted them by now.

Paul S
22-02-2005, 02:50 PM
Saturday.
However if they didnt finish recently then the organiser is slack if they havent submitted them by now.

Thanks Bill

I was referring to the 2005 Canterbury Rapidplay which finished yesterday.

I expect to email them to you and Steve Carratt tomorrow when I return to work.

Bill Gletsos
27-02-2005, 11:00 PM
This should be the final list of Normal events included in the March 2004 ratings.

Tournaments Rated
ACF
05/12/2004 25 5 2004 National Schools Finals Primary Girls Division
05/12/2004 27 5 2004 National Schools Finals Primary Open Division
05/12/2004 25 5 2004 National Schools Finals Secondary Girls Division
05/12/2004 30 5 2004 National Schools Finals Secondary Open Division
21/01/2005 4 3 2005 Australian Junior Under 12 Girls Finals Division 1
21/01/2005 4 3 2005 Australian Junior Under 12 Girls Finals Division 2
17/01/2005 8 7 2005 Australian Junior Under 12 Girls Prelim
21/01/2005 59 9 2005 Australian Junior Under 12 Open
21/01/2005 17 11 2005 Australian Junior Under 18 Girls
21/01/2005 86 11 2005 Australian Junior Under 18 Open
09/01/2005 75 11 2005 Lidums Australian Open
05/01/2005 12 8 2005 Mt Buller Minor
04/02/2005 60 9 2005 Oceania Zonal Open
04/02/2005 17 9 2005 Oceania Zonal Womens
ACT
07/12/2004 18 5 2004 Griffin Tournament
05/12/2004 29 6 2004 Tuggeranong Vikings Weekender
NSW
07/12/2004 6 5 2004 Collies Champs 01-06
07/12/2004 6 5 2004 Collies Champs 07-12
07/12/2004 6 5 2004 Collies Champs 13-18
12/12/2004 58 7 2004 Fairfield Summer Cup
04/11/2004 10 6 2004 Newcastle District Championship
06/12/2004 23 9 Berger Cup 2004
07/12/2004 10 9 Coffs Harbour Club Championship 2004
06/12/2004 33 11 Manly Spring Tournament
05/12/2004 39 7 NSW Country Teams 2004
30/01/2005 77 7 NSWCA Australia Day Weekender 2005
06/01/2005 73 9 NSWJCL New Year Tournament - 4-6/1/2005
06/02/2005 36 7 Newcastle Open 2005
01/12/2004 5 5 Ryde Eastwood Club Champ Final 2004
01/02/2005 39 7 St. George Summer Open 2004-2005
20/02/2005 48 7 Toukley 2005
QLD
11/10/2004 21 8 Gold Coast Junior Masters Term 4
13/02/2005 87 6 Gold Coast Tin Cup 2005
SA
29/01/2005 17 8 City of Adelaide Junior
TAS
14/02/2005 11 11 HICC One Hour Tourney 2004
VIC
17/12/2004 13 13 Albury Club Championship
03/12/2004 6 5 Albury Junior Club Championship
16/12/2004 13 7 Ballarat John Holmes Memorial
10/12/2004 80 5 Box Hill Christmas Swiss
14/12/2004 41 6 Box Hill Summer Swiss
08/12/2004 52 9 Dandenong Club Championship
11/12/2004 20 7 Elwood Club Championship
21/10/2004 20 7 Frankston Club Championship
15/12/2004 8 7 Hobsons Bay Club Championship
15/12/2004 16 7 Hobsons Bay Reserve Club Championship
14/12/2004 12 5 Latrobe Valley Summer Swiss
23/01/2005 21 5 MCC Australia Day Weekender
19/12/2004 48 5 MCC Christmas Swiss
20/12/2004 30 7 MCC Fitzroy Open
02/11/2004 16 7 MCC Melbourne Cup Weekender
25/10/2004 33 9 Melbourne Open
23/08/2004 14 7 Melbourne Under 1600
23/08/2004 26 7 Melbourne Under 2000
WA
18/12/2004 11 11 2004 Respini A
18/12/2004 12 11 2004 Respini B
18/12/2004 12 11 2004 Respini C
18/12/2004 11 11 2004 Respini D
18/12/2004 10 9 2004 Respini E
05/12/2004 27 6 2004 Xmas Open
16/12/2004 14 7 City Of Fremantle 2004

Bill Gletsos
27-02-2005, 11:01 PM
This should be the final list of Rapid events included in the March 2004 ratings.

Tournaments Rated
ACF
01/01/2005 44 7 2005 Australian Open Rapid Play
19/01/2005 64 7 Australian Junior Rapid Championships 2005
ACT
04/12/2004 53 15 2004 ACT Rapid Championship
15/12/2004 59 7 2004 Curtin Invitational
13/11/2004 12 7 Street Chess 13 November 2004
15/01/2005 14 7 Street Chess 15 January 2005
18/12/2004 18 7 Street Chess 18 December 2004
18/09/2004 12 7 Street Chess 18 September 2004
20/11/2004 12 7 Street Chess 20 November 2004
21/08/2004 8 7 Street Chess 21 August 2004
22/01/2005 14 7 Street Chess 22 January 2005
28/08/2004 6 7 Street Chess 28 August 2004
29/01/2005 14 7 Street Chess 29 January 2005
30/10/2004 14 7 Street Chess 30 October 2004
06/11/2004 16 7 Street Chess 6 November 2004
08/01/2005 16 7 Street Chess 8 January 2005
NSW
21/02/2005 16 7 2005 Canterbury Rapid
27/02/2005 21 7 Laurietion One Day February 2005
16/02/2005 21 9 Ryde Eastwood Rapid 2005
QLD
07/11/2004 32 5 2004 GPS Junior Championship
SA
26/12/2004 73 7 Australian Allegro Chess Championship
01/02/2005 36 5 February Allegro 2005
23/11/2004 19 5 November Allegro 2004
VIC
07/01/2005 30 5 Box Hill Allegro (January)
14/01/2005 32 5 Box Hill Allegro 2 (January)
22/01/2005 12 7 Elwood Rapid Play Tournament
20/02/2005 42 7 Whitehorse Rookies & Queens Cup (February)

Paul S
28-02-2005, 11:08 PM
Bill does make mistakes after all!


This should be the final list of Normal events included in the March 2004 ratings.


March 2005 ratings actually, Bill. ;) :doh:


This should be the final list of Rapid events included in the March 2004 ratings.


March 2005 ratings actually, Bill. ;) :doh:

Bill Gletsos
28-02-2005, 11:11 PM
Bill does make mistakes after all!



March 2005 ratings actually, Bill. ;) :doh:



March 2005 ratings actually, Bill. ;) :doh:Are you sure? ;)
I'll use the lateness of the hour of the posts as my excuse. :whistle: