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kiwichessplayer
20-06-2015, 08:48 AM
Why isn't there any active kiwi GMs. I am an average club player so I admit to having no idea what it takes to be a GM. So all the top players out there, what does NZ need to do to create at least one GM. If we had one active GM we would be doing better than Australia, per head of population. So the way I see it Australia should be asking the same question.

Should our respective federation be taking the lead in this? Do they need to create more money to put back into development?

Give your opinion from wherever you are in the world.

The wolf
08-07-2015, 07:02 AM
Chess.com are doing a beginner to 2000 in a few years type course. Hand some of those out in sponsorship form to talented juniors then grab the top 10 or so of that group and attempt to turn them into gm's. Using a blend of Skype, otb contact at 'headquarters' and at tournaments. Would not cost much at all in scheme of things.

kiwichessplayer
10-07-2015, 01:22 PM
I think this is a good idea 'The Wolf'. Many sports identify an elite junior group and take them to higher levels. The other question that comes to mind - Is it necessary to have a GM to coach to that level. I know in most sports being a good coach is much more important than the level the coach achieved. I wonder though, is chess different? My feeling is that in chess it is hard, if not impossible, to teach chess at a higher level than you have achieved (maybe slightly higher). It would be difficult for, say an 1800 player to understand the approach of a 2200 player, otherwise they would be at that level.

I hope the NZCF are reading this and also participate in the debate - what are they doing now?

ElevatorEscapee
10-07-2015, 09:31 PM
Offering an immigration opportunity to an existing GM may also be an option. :)

MichaelBaron
11-07-2015, 01:01 AM
Given the fact that other than Puchen Wang who no longer appears to be a very active player there are no active players over 2400, I think taking ElevatorEscapee's suggestion is the only option available :)

antichrist
11-07-2015, 12:49 PM
Offering an immigration opportunity to an existing GM may also be an option. :)

Along with a royal title so can be called Sir or Lady. They could even legislate a grandmaster title for example to whoever wins 3 NZ closed championships And the beauty is there are no FIDE fees and no free entry to tourneys denying maximum prize money and no free accommodation. They have to sink or swim themselves.

Desmond
11-07-2015, 05:55 PM
Offering an immigration opportunity to an existing GM may also be an option. :)Could pick up a bargain if you pay in Drachmas ;)

ER
11-07-2015, 08:54 PM
...

I hope the NZCF are reading this and also participate in the debate - what are they doing now?

A number of NZ strong players and officials were at the Oceania Zonal held in Sydney the last 10 days or so.

Back to your question.

Unfortunately a Kiwi who resides in NZ no matter how strong he/she is will find it very difficult to achieve GM norms due mainly to lack of GM titled competition(*)

The "tyranny of distance" torments NZ as much as it does Australia. All our GMs (I stand to be corrected here if I am wrong) have achieved the highest degree of Chessdom by playing in overseas tournaments.

(*) On the other hand, in NZ you have organised a no. of very successful international tournaments so your talented youngsters (IM Bobby Cheng who migrated to Australia comes to mind) with the right preparation as suggested above by "the wolf" might be more successful than others before them!

MichaelBaron
12-07-2015, 11:54 AM
A number of NZ strong players and officials were at the Oceania Zonal held in Sydney the last 10 days or so.

Back to your question.

Unfortunately a Kiwi who resides in NZ no matter how strong he/she is will find it very difficult to achieve GM norms due mainly to lack of GM titled competition(*)

The "tyranny of distance" torments NZ as much as it does Australia. All our GMs (I stand to be corrected here if I am wrong) have achieved the highest degree of Chessdom by playing in overseas tournaments.



Now that Cheng ''Defected'' and Wang is ''mostly inactive'' - unfortunately I am not sure who these ''strong players'' are. Correct me if I am wrong but the strongest NZ players in the Zonal were 50+ years old Smith rated 2251 and 2206 rated Steadman. I am not quite sure how they can become GMs in the near future. My prediction is - NZ's next GM is either still a little kid or not born...or will be an import.

ER
12-07-2015, 12:31 PM
...
(*) On the other hand, in NZ you have organised a no. of very successful international tournaments so your talented youngsters (IM Bobby Cheng who migrated to Australia comes to mind) with the right preparation as suggested above by "the wolf" might be more successful than others before them!

CM ANG, Alphaeus Wei Er also comes to mind.

MichaelBaron
12-07-2015, 01:28 PM
CM ANG, Alphaeus Wei Er also comes to mind.

2000 at the age of 13 well...ok...Lets keep our fingers crossed

Keong Ang
12-07-2015, 10:51 PM
2000 at the age of 13 well...ok...Lets keep our fingers crossed

CM ANG, Alphaeus Wei Ern won the title and was rated 2021 before he turned 12 last year.

The parents supporting and financing everything would know in minute detail!! :doh:;):eh:

Ideas of GM title are merely dreams. Trying to get FM title is already an expensive exercise. A parent has to be realistic about own child's talent, to the point of being the biggest critic and downplayer of talent!

There comes a time when resources must be directed at more important things in life. Chess and everything else related is a "nice to have" that is optional. A good parent is not going to let their child become a chess professional. Chess is supposed to help strengthen abilities that would help the child accomplish a successful future livelihood. Chess is NOT supposed to be the livelihood... any inclination by the child towards becoming a chess professional is going to be suppressed in favour of more lucrative and rewarding pursuits. It would take super talent and a realistic potential to become one of the top 10 chess players in the world before chess becomes an endeavour worth pursuing. Otherwise it must remain at best an amateur's obsessive hobby.
This is the reality of chess in NZ where every chess professional (makes a living from chess) lives frugally on low incomes.

MichaelBaron
12-07-2015, 11:46 PM
CM ANG, Alphaeus Wei Ern won the title and was rated 2021 before he turned 12 last year.

The parents supporting and financing everything would know in minute detail!! :doh:;):eh:

Ideas of GM title are merely dreams. Trying to get FM title is already an expensive exercise. A parent has to be realistic about own child's talent, to the point of being the biggest critic and downplayer of talent!

There comes a time when resources must be directed at more important things in life. Chess and everything else related is a "nice to have" that is optional. A good parent is not going to let their child become a chess professional. Chess is supposed to help strengthen abilities that would help the child accomplish a successful future livelihood. Chess is NOT supposed to be the livelihood... any inclination by the child towards becoming a chess professional is going to be suppressed in favour of more lucrative and rewarding pursuits. It would take super talent and a realistic potential to become one of the top 10 chess players in the world before chess becomes an endeavour worth pursuing. Otherwise it must remain at best an amateur's obsessive hobby.
This is the reality of chess in NZ where every chess professional (makes a living from chess) lives frugally on low incomes.

Hopefully chess talents (with support of enthusiastic parents like you) will get a chance to get some perks for their chess achievements. Not sure about NZ but on my arrival to Australia, I was offered a place in a good school (that was many years ago obviously) free of charge so hopefully NZ schools are equally supportive.
Re NZ chess professionals living on low incomes...I did not even realize there are chess professionals in NZ :)

Keong Ang
12-07-2015, 11:54 PM
Offering an immigration opportunity to an existing GM may also be an option. :)
The number of GMs who contact NZCF to request help to come to NZ are surprisingly many.
Judging by how cheap they are, and how highly rated... it doesn't take a genius to work out how easy it would be to set up a scheme to suddenly get a crop of "talented" kids their GM titles and 2500+ ratings. Easy enough to recycle over and over until every player who is any good is a GM. :uhoh:

But we're talking about how to earn the title ethically and above board!!! This takes orders of magnitude more investment in time, effort and money.
NZCF doesn't have the resources to set up schemes that would effectively accomplish nothing more than vanity GM titles and ratings. Even if we did we would be too principled to do it. While it is very possible to create "rockets" under the present rules, there is not much point sending players to GM titles and ratings that are emptier than thin air that would make "soft" titles look like great achievements against overwhelming odds.

NZCF certainly has insufficient funds to properly develop any player. So we are reduced to just letting parents with sufficient wealth (or crazy enough with money) develop their children and hope that these juniors have sufficient talent and discipline to not waste the resources spent on them. It is a struggle for everyone involved and any little accomplishment, even a CM title is celebrated. You get the gut feeling that everybody thinks that their child is talented and dreams of GM glory, but nobody dares to admit it.

Keong Ang
13-07-2015, 12:10 AM
Hopefully chess talents (with support of enthusiastic parents like you) will get a chance to get some perks for their chess achievements. Not sure about NZ but on my arrival to Australia, I was offered a place in a good school (that was many years ago obviously) free of charge so hopefully NZ schools are equally supportive.
Re NZ chess professionals living on low incomes...I did not even realize there are chess professionals in NZ :)
NZ schools are supportive. Some even go out of their way to help. However budgets are tight and there are many demands on school resources. Most schools are very proud of their students chess achievements. However school resources need to be devoted to curriculum delivery and that's how things should be prioritised. It is good that schools are very supportive of their students pursuits for chess achievements in non monetary ways. How much more can be asked when the school reschedules exams and events that involves the chess student just so that he/she can take time off to compete in some international tournament?

As for "chess professionals", it's used rather loosely to mean anyone who makes a living through chess. I don't think there would be anyone who would be making an income that would be classed as "professional" from chess in NZ. :hmm:

Capablanca-Fan
16-07-2015, 05:43 AM
Why isn't there any active kiwi GMs.
There is: Mark Noble, albeit correspondence chess. That's why he has won the NZ Correspondence Champs 10 times, far more than any other player.

James Peirce
16-07-2015, 10:28 AM
Is it necessary to have a GM to coach to that level. I know in most sports being a good coach is much more important than the level the coach achieved. I wonder though, is chess different? My feeling is that in chess it is hard, if not impossible, to teach chess at a higher level than you have achieved (maybe slightly higher). It would be difficult for, say an 1800 player to understand the approach of a 2200 player, otherwise they would be at that level.

Viktor Kart never even achieved a master title but several of his students went on to become GM's including Alexander Belyavsky and Oleg Romanishin.

Afitz
16-07-2015, 12:29 PM
Viktor Kart never even achieved a master title but several of his students went on to become GM's including Alexander Belyavsky and Oleg Romanishin.

Sure, but that's the key - you can only coach them to a certain level before they need training from someone else to learn different subtleties and nuances for various things. Of course there is the simple notion that each player has to put in a hell of a lot of their own work to get there too.

James Peirce
16-07-2015, 01:02 PM
Of course there is the simple notion that each player has to put in a hell of a lot of their own work to get there too.
This is what Kart mainly taught, to quote his words, "The main feature of our work is very likely the development of character and love of hard work. Only strong characters are capable of producing top competitive results."

Vlad
16-07-2015, 01:41 PM
Sure, but that's the key - you can only coach them to a certain level before they need training from someone else to learn different subtleties and nuances for various things. Of course there is the simple notion that each player has to put in a hell of a lot of their own work to get there too.

I would say that in general your statement is correct. The coach should be noticeably stronger than his students. However, the devil is in details.

I stopped coaching Anton once he reached 2200 level. My maximum rating was 2420. At the end I felt that I was not satisfying his curiosity.

The maximum rating of Anton's current coach is 2641, which means 200 points higher than Anton is now. So the difference is smaller than when I stopped. In ideal world it would be best to find someone 2800+.:) However, as you can imagine it is not easy. Even if somebody agrees - it will likely to cost us hundreds thousands of dollars a year. Consequently we have the first amendment to the rule above.

1) Once a student gets stronger the difference between a coach and a student gets smaller.

The second point is related. I was an amateurish coach, which is ok for <2200. My main profession is different from chess. Once the student gets stronger he/she needs a professional coach. That coach should not necessarily be superb strong over the board. That coach is supposed to be strong in coaching. There are a few examples that come to mind - Dvoretsky, Chuchelov, etc. So we have the second amendment.

2) Coach could be even weaker than his student.

Once again if 2800+ were available for 100 dollars/hour, there would be no necessity for Dvoretsky and Chuchelov.:)

Vlad
16-07-2015, 01:55 PM
In response to the main topic of this thread - somebody has estimated that it costs around USA 1 mln dollars to grow a GM in Russia. Remember that costs in Russia are smaller and there is a large number of very strong tournaments available. So in NZ that number becomes USA 2-3 mln. Consequently the real question is - do you really want to spend so much money on chess? :)

ER
16-07-2015, 02:18 PM
(...) My main profession is different from chess.
Considering Anton's success you might have to think twice! :)

ER
16-07-2015, 02:52 PM
Another way of putting the original topic's heading could be "What stops a Kiwi of becoming an active GM?"

Capablanca-Fan's example comes to mind.

FM Dr Jonathan Sarfati drew versus ex World Champion GM Boris Spassky in Wellington 1988.

A great impetus for a player (any player) to take chess seriously and obtain titles.

Then well known "detrim" "unfavourable" factors such as


Studies

Professional career

Family responsibilities



appear in the chess aspirations' horizon

[to be continued in real life]

MichaelBaron
17-07-2015, 12:18 AM
I guess one more issue from parents perspective is: The kid has both talent and love for the game - but what if he never reaches 2700 and stops at say 2500-2600? It is a considerable risk as 2700+ players have great lifestyles and sufficient incomes but 2500-something rated GMs do not. Living in Australia or NZ -playing a lot of international events involves compromising on school studies and enjoying travel and fun lifestyle that kids are so fond of. What if the kid gets addicted to chess and gives up on his studies/careers ..then ends up as a 2500-rated struggler? In Australia right now, I think the only person who earns from chess (other than those who teach chess at schools...and this is more like a school teaching job rather than a chess career) is Ian Rogers and even he does not play any more so his income comes from being a great chess journalist/writer (which may or may not be classified a professional chess career as opposed to a professional writing career).I can not think of anyone else who earns money by playing chess or even serious coaching (again, I do not regard those teaching kids how to move bishops along the diagonals in schools as coaches - its a different trade all together). I can think of several Australian players that dropped out of Uni or graduated..but never even got into their respective professions and many years later - their lives were rather difficult.

MichaelBaron
17-07-2015, 12:26 AM
Another way of putting the original topic's heading could be "What stops a Kiwi of becoming an active GM?"

Capablanca-Fan's example comes to mind.

FM Dr Jonathan Sarfati drew versus ex World Champion GM Boris Spassky in Wellington 1988.

A great impetus for a player (any player) to take chess seriously and obtain titles.

Then well known "detrim" "unfavourable" factors such as


Studies

Professional career

Family responsibilities



appear in the chess aspirations' horizon

[to be continued in real life]


As far as I know Dr Sarfati he is an established academic and is recognized as an internationally-acclaimed expert in his field of expertise. While he still loves chess (chess is addictive) I strongly doubt his main ambissions in life/career are/have been chess-related. The same could be said about several other potential Grandmasters such as the late Dr Greg Hjorth. Greg never became a GM but his achievements off the chess board (and I do not just mean salary-wise :)) suggest that his decision to abandone professional chess aspirations was a pretty smart one.

ER
17-07-2015, 02:53 AM
(...) I strongly doubt his main ambissions in life/career are/have been chess-related. (...)
No reason to strongly doubt something I never claimed! :P :)
I simply referred to FM Capablanca-Fan and IM Bobby Cheng (for whom I made a reference to in a previous post) just to name two New Zealanders.
As for the financial gains ie comfortable / acceptable / poverty line etc standard of living of partly or fully chess professionals, we have discussed at least once before and I find no reason to repeat the position.

Desmond
17-07-2015, 02:29 PM
You could let Australia annex NZ.

Kevin Bonham
19-07-2015, 02:07 AM
Posts moved

Comments about the exact nature of Dr Sarfati's life outside chess that are largely not relevant to this thread have been transferred here:

http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?15402-Academia-definition-of-quot-scientist-quot-(sf-various-threads)

(starting from post 70)

For the purposes of this thread it's only really necessary to note that it exists and debate about its nature can occur elsewhere. I'll also quote a part of one of my posts which has been moved:


Anyway as concerns the point of the thread, by the time of his draw with Spassky and other such achievements he was well into his 20s, and if you're an FM in your early 20s it is hard to make GM even if chess is your primary activity.

Capablanca-Fan
19-07-2015, 03:15 AM
For the purposes of this thread it's only really necessary to note that it exists and debate about its nature can occur elsewhere. I'll also quote a part of one of my posts which has been moved:

Anyway as concerns the point of the thread, by the time of his draw with Spassky and other such achievements he was well into his 20s, and if you're an FM in your early 20s it is hard to make GM even if chess is your primary activity.
That much is true. Even earlier on, in the World Junior, some of those with whom I drew and even beat became GMs, but it was clear that the likes of Short and Salov were in a higher class. And this was long before the days of computers and 13yo GMs.

Qbert
19-07-2015, 10:20 AM
Given that NZ hasn't created an IM for 8 years, the whole subject of this thread seems premature. I would rather the nzcf devote its resources to getting 1000 registered players, without which it will never have the resources for anything else.

The only sure way to generate a home grown GM in my view is to tow the whole country to the Atlantic off the coast of Northern Europe and let nature take its course. There is insufficient chess culture to support the development of a Gm here.

MichaelBaron
19-07-2015, 12:06 PM
The only sure way to generate a home grown GM in my view is to tow the whole country to the Atlantic off the coast of Northern Europe and let nature take its course. Indeed the best option of all - make sure you take Australia along :)!

kiwichessplayer
19-07-2015, 12:56 PM
Then the wallabies would be full of kiwis!!

kiwichessplayer
19-07-2015, 12:58 PM
Then the wallabies would be full of kiwis!!

I didn't do it correctly. This was in reply to Road runner above

ER
19-07-2015, 04:48 PM
Before we jump into early conclusions in regards to the culture factor I believe that, in a very broad sense, New Zealand doesn't fare more favourably to Australia concerning imported strong chess players. Broadly again, a country which per capita has produced more Nobel Prize laureates in both scientific and general awards than Australia, has a great record in international sport achievement and chess wise has produced an IM of Bobby Cheng's class culture is of a variable value. Additionally, and regarding indigenous chess involvement there is more movement in the station in New Zealand than in Australia. In my opinion, Kiwis should concentrate on junior, women's and indigenous chess development rather than achieving a temporarily illusive GM titile!

Kaitlin
17-01-2016, 12:12 PM
More Chess movies :)

MichaelBaron
17-01-2016, 12:49 PM
More Chess movies :)

Just offer NZ citizenship to holders of GM title - there will be soon plenty of GMs from Russia and Eastern Europe living all over NZ :)

Max Illingworth
17-01-2016, 10:48 PM
Why isn't there any active kiwi GMs. I am an average club player so I admit to having no idea what it takes to be a GM. So all the top players out there, what does NZ need to do to create at least one GM. If we had one active GM we would be doing better than Australia, per head of population. So the way I see it Australia should be asking the same question.

Should our respective federation be taking the lead in this? Do they need to create more money to put back into development?

Give your opinion from wherever you are in the world.

Sponsorship, a good training system and more tournaments.