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Rincewind
07-04-2015, 08:10 AM
[see #10 for start of discussion - mod]


How is it a pro-Christian action, when the Nazi Church had been so de-Christianized and de-Judaized?

Only some members of the Nazi leadership identified with Positive Christianity. Most were Lutheran and Hitler himself was a Catholic.

Capablanca-Fan
07-04-2015, 10:08 AM
Only some members of the Nazi leadership identified with Positive Christianity. Most were Lutheran and Hitler himself was a Catholic.

More nonsense. Hitler never attended the church as an adult and opposed its theology and ethics. Göring was an atheist until the end, according the Nuremberg chaplain, American Lutheran minister Henry Gerecke:


Gerecke sat with each of the condemned men in his charge and asked them to join him in a prayer he had written.

Goering wasn’t leaving his cell. He argued again for a firing squad and finally told Gerecke he couldn’t say: 'Jesus, save me'.

Goering said: 'This Jesus you always speak of – to me he’s just another smart Jew.'

But he still wanted communion just in case there was any truth in Christianity. Gerecke refused and left his cell.

The American psychologist Gustav Gilbert who wrote a book on the Nazis at Nuremberg affirmed that Rosenberg and Streicher were atheists. Hess was into astrology.

Rincewind
07-04-2015, 10:10 AM
Hitler never attended the church as an adult...

2877

Capablanca-Fan
07-04-2015, 10:41 AM
↑↑ Shows Hitler leaving a church, not attending it.

Rincewind
07-04-2015, 10:55 AM
↑↑ Shows Hitler leaving a church, not attending it.

You do reaslise that attend means "be present at". How is it that Hitler left a church that he was not present at?

Rincewind
07-04-2015, 11:51 AM
Another photo of Hitler attending the church...

2878

Capablanca-Fan
07-04-2015, 12:55 PM
You do reaslise that attend means "be present at". How is it that Hitler left a church that he was not present at?

Come off it. It refers to participation, not just exiting. And as you have been amply informed, saying some Christian words doesn't make one a Christian, especially given his well documented hostility. And content-free pics mean nothing.

Capablanca-Fan
07-04-2015, 02:36 PM
More on Rev. Gerecke, the chaplain to the notorious Nazis at Nuremberg (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/24/henry-gerecke-nazis-minister_n_5701515.html):

Townsend thinks Gerecke looked beyond the terrible men imprisoned in front of him to the children they had once been. One of the most lovely — and chilling — pieces in the book comes when Gerecke accompanies Keitel up the 13 steps of the gallows and prays aloud with him a German prayer both were taught by their mothers.

“He knew that he needed to save the souls of as many of these men as he could before they were executed,” Townsend said. “I think for him he thought it was a great gift he had been given.”

And not one he took lightly. Gerecke did not give communion to any of the Nazis unless he believed they were truly penitent and made a profession of faith in Jesus. Only four of the 11 sentenced to hang met Gerecke’s standard.

One who did not was Goering, who many historians credit with helping to create “the Final Solution,” the genocide of the Jews. When he and Gerecke discussed the divinity of Jesus, Goering disparaged the idea.

“This Jesus you always speak of,” he said to Gerecke, “to me he is just another smart Jew.”

Gerecke held that unless he accepted Jesus as his savior, Goering could not receive communion.

“You are not a Christian,” Gerecke told Goering, “and as a Christian pastor I cannot commune you.”

Within hours, Goering was dead, robbing the hangman by swallowing cyanide he had secreted in his cell.

In the end, Gerecke walked five men to the gallows. After the war, he was criticized by some of his fellow pastors for not granting Goering communion. And he was criticized for ministering to such monsters in the first place.

Rincewind
07-04-2015, 04:19 PM
Come off it. It refers to participation, not just exiting.

Sounds like a a no true Scotsman fallacy to me Jono. You made a claim about him never attending a church as an adult (without any evidence for this claim) and I have provided photgraphic evidence that he at least visited one church and he attended a memorial mass at another.

Time for you to withdraw the claim.

Kevin Bonham
07-04-2015, 08:13 PM
The following were the starting comments leading into this discussion:




Surely an omniscient being could predict that an unreasonable interpretation would be placed on the words, leading to millions of Jews being killed? When assigning responsibility, the question is not whether the interpretation is reasonable; it is whether it is foreseeable.
The people who would twist it so ludicrously were predisposed against the Jews anyway. In Nazi Germany, the leading antisemites (and eugenicists) followed the same evolutionary dogma as you do. But then evolutionists squawk pitieously about how racist and eugenicist views should not be blamed on Darwin (http://creation.com/darwin-and-eugenics), even though eugenics was founded by his first cousin and four of Darwin's sons were leaders in the movement (http://creation.com/eugenics-a-darwin-family-business).



And, without wanting to get into an argument over whether Hitler was a Christian, his writings suggest that his anti-Semitism had religious roots (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/23/list-of-hitler-quotes-he-was-q/):
“The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement) was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”
[Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]



And, without wanting to get into an argument over whether Hitler was a Christian, his writings suggest that his anti-Semitism had religious roots (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/23/list-of-hitler-quotes-he-was-q/):
“The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement) was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”
[Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]
Well, par for the course for an unreliable gutter atheopath like P.Z. Myers to spout that trash, while ignoring his other anti-Christian rantings and his desire to eliminate Christianity (http://creation.com/nazis-planned-to-exterminate-christianity), and how the so-called Positive Christianity (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/positive_christianity.htm) was as Christian as the German Democratic Republic was democratic, while real historians who have studied the third Reich in depth note his Darwinian teachings (http://creation.com/refutation-of-new-scientists-evolution-24-myths-and-misconceptions-nazi-darwin-link).



Well, par for the course for an unreliable gutter atheopath like P.Z. Myers to spout that trash, while ignoring his other anti-Christian rantings ...
What about Hitler's pro-Christian actions:

BERLIN, May 13. – In Freethinkers Hall, which before the Nazi resurgence was the national headquarters of the German Freethinkers League, the Berlin Protestant church authorities have opened a bureau for advice to the public in church matters. Its chief object is to win back former churchgoers and assist those who have not previously belonged to any religious congregation in obtaining church membership. The German Freethinkers League, which was swept away by the national revolution, was the largest of such organizations in Germany. It had about 500,000 members …”

[New York Times, May 14, 1933, page 2, on Hitler’s outlawing of atheistic and freethinking groups in Germany in the Spring of 1933, after the Enabling Act authorizing Hitler to rule by decree]




What about Hitler's pro-Christian actions:

BERLIN, May 13. – In Freethinkers Hall, which before the Nazi resurgence was the national headquarters of the German Freethinkers League, the Berlin Protestant church authorities have opened a bureau for advice to the public in church matters. Its chief object is to win back former churchgoers and assist those who have not previously belonged to any religious congregation in obtaining church membership. The German Freethinkers League, which was swept away by the national revolution, was the largest of such organizations in Germany. It had about 500,000 members …”

[New York Times, May 14, 1933, page 2, on Hitler’s outlawing of atheistic and freethinking groups in Germany in the Spring of 1933, after the Enabling Act authorizing Hitler to rule by decree]
How is it a pro-Christian action, when the Nazi Church had been so de-Christianized and de-Judaized?




How is it a pro-Christian action, when the Nazi Church had been so de-Christianized and de-Judaized?
Hitler outlawed atheism, which presumably would help in the promotion of Christianity. Was the 'Nazi' Church de-Christianized in 1933?