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Desmond
06-09-2014, 12:04 PM
“You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor.”—Didache 2:2, 1st century AD


Magic like card tricks, pulling a rabbit out of a hat, sawing your assistant in half?

Capablanca-Fan
06-09-2014, 01:59 PM
“You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor.”—Didache 2:2, 1st century AD


Magic like card tricks, pulling a rabbit out of a hat, sawing your assistant in half?
That's not real magic, but illusionism, which is OK.

Kevin Bonham
06-09-2014, 02:36 PM
That's not real magic, but illusionism, which is OK.

Do you actually believe real magic exists?

Rincewind
06-09-2014, 03:16 PM
Do you actually believe real magic exists?

There is a biblical basis for a belief in magic so I'm sure Jono does believe it. (See for example Exodus 7:8-11)

Capablanca-Fan
06-09-2014, 03:27 PM
There is a biblical basis for a belief in magic so I'm sure Jono does believe it. (See for example Exodus 7:8-11)

That's largely divine action for a special part of history, the founding of the Messianic Nation, distinct from the sorcery that the Didache was talking about. Nowadays, claims of magic are really likely to be illusionism.

antichrist
06-09-2014, 03:43 PM
That's largely divine action for a special part of history, the founding of the Messianic Nation, distinct from the sorcery that the Didache was talking about. Nowadays, claims of magic are really likely to be illusionism.

what about when Catholic saints cure people of illness?

antichrist
06-09-2014, 03:46 PM
That's largely divine action for a special part of history, the founding of the Messianic Nation, distinct from the sorcery that the Didache was talking about. Nowadays, claims of magic are really likely to be illusionism.

Exodus 7:8-11New King James Version (NKJV)

Aaron’s Miraculous Rod
8 Then the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 9 “When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, ‘Show a miracle for yourselves,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your rod and cast it before Pharaoh, and let it become a serpent.’” 10 So Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh, and they did so, just as the Lord commanded. And Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. (no copyright on the Bible)

AC: see even the pagans could perform such tricks, even without divine intervention.

Rincewind
06-09-2014, 04:26 PM
That's largely divine action for a special part of history, the founding of the Messianic Nation, distinct from the sorcery that the Didache was talking about. Nowadays, claims of magic are really likely to be illusionism.

The interesting thing about that passage is not Aaron's rod turning into a serpent. It is the Pharaoh's sorcerers doing the same thing using "their enchantments" (using the NKJV translation supplied by Peter).

Kevin Bonham
06-09-2014, 04:35 PM
Nowadays, claims of magic are really likely to be illusionism.

So why would magic be rare nowadays and formerly common? What has disappeared - the knowledge required to perform it, the ability required to perform it or does it just not work anymore?

Also, you said "likely to be illusionism". Some could also be genuinely intentioned failed attempts to perform real magic, but does your particular flavour of Christian doctrine think there has been any magic since the times covered in the Bible at all?

Capablanca-Fan
08-09-2014, 06:36 AM
Actually, miracles were very rare in the Bible too. They are concentrated in times where God is starting a new stage of His messianic program, e.g. Creation, Fall, Flood, confusion of languages at Babel, the Exodus (beginning of the Israelite Nation and establishment of the Mosaic Law), Elijah and Elisha (the forefunners of the Prophets), the time of Jesus Christ of course, and the early apostolic era to validate the Apostles and New Testament. So even with the Bible as a whole, there is no reason to expect miracles to be common. This is even apparent with the annunciation of the Virginal Conception of Christ to Mary and Joseph. They questioned this precisely because they did know the facts of life—that men are needed to have babies, not because they were ignorant. Sure, they didn't know about sperm and egg cells and DNA, but this didn't mean they were gullible about miracle claims. Similarly, the reaction to proposed resurrections was also incredulous, because again they knew enough about the facts of life to know that dead bodies stank and decayed, even if they didn't know about decarboxylation of basic amino acids to strong-smelling diamines like putrescene and cadaverine.

So my inclinationn would be in line with magicians who debunk claims of real magic, such as the Christian André Kole and the atheopath James Randi, and Houdini before them—the presumptions that they are illusionist tricks.

Capablanca-Fan
08-09-2014, 06:37 AM
what about when Catholic saints cure people of illness?

Well, tell us of the case that most convinces you that a Catholic saint has truly cured someone, and we can discuss.

Rincewind
08-09-2014, 01:47 PM
So my inclinationn would be in line with magicians who debunk claims of real magic, such as the Christian André Kole and the atheopath James Randi, and Houdini before them—the presumptions that they are illusionist tricks.

So what is your opinion on the Pharaoh's sorcerers turning a rod into a serpent? Was that an illusion or actual magic?

Capablanca-Fan
09-09-2014, 12:25 AM
So what is your opinion on the Pharaoh's sorcerers turning a rod into a serpent? Was that an illusion or actual magic?

That's a fair question. I think that was an illusion. The account goes on to show that there was a limit to how far their illusions could go when facing the genuinely divine power behind the miracles of Moses. Even with the serpents, Moses' serpent ate those of Jannes and Jambres.

MichaelBaron
09-09-2014, 01:38 AM
Whatever we are unable to explain - we tend to refer to as ''magic'' :)

Chris_Wallis
09-09-2014, 03:06 AM
Whatever we are unable to explain - we tend to refer to as ''magic'' :)

This definition is perhaps too general - in following it, I would be able to label a lot of my chess moves as magic! :)

Rincewind
09-09-2014, 02:38 PM
That's a fair question. I think that was an illusion. The account goes on to show that there was a limit to how far their illusions could go when facing the genuinely divine power behind the miracles of Moses. Even with the serpents, Moses' serpent ate those of Jannes and Jambres.

is there scope for that interpretation in the text? Just looking at the English translations it would seem that the claiming is that an actual metamorphosis took place which would one presumes would require actual magic. However there could be a subtlety in the text which has been lost in the translation.

Redmond Barry
09-09-2014, 05:54 PM
according to quite a few bumper stickers i've noticed, magic does indeed happen.

Hasimir
10-09-2014, 10:32 AM
“You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor.”—Didache 2:2, 1st century AD


Magic like card tricks, pulling a rabbit out of a hat, sawing your assistant in half?

I'm pretty sure the "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" line from that ancient work of fiction and allegory was mistranslation and that it was actually "thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live." Which means we should see Christians picketing pharmaceuticals companies.

I'm still waiting on that one.

Capablanca-Fan
11-09-2014, 01:03 AM
I'm pretty sure the "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" line from that ancient work of fiction and allegory
Evidently you couldn't tell the difference between allegory and alligators.


was mistranslation and that it was actually "thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live."
Why did you cite the Didache via rr (via me) which doesn't have that phrase? Where is your justification for translating μαγεύσεις as poisoning rather than a practitioner of magic? If you are referring to Exodus 22:18, then again, what is your justification for translating מְכַשֵּׁפָ֖ה that way, when this noun is derived from the verb כָּשַׁף, meaning “to practise sorcery” according to the standard Brown–Driver–Briggs lexicon?


Which means we should see Christians picketing pharmaceuticals companies.

I'm still waiting on that one.
You'll be waiting a long time, because informed Christians don't fall for ‘Big Pharma’ conspiracy nonsense.