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Garvinator
19-11-2004, 03:36 PM
Thought I would create a new thread on the title. It comes from Smerdon at the World Juniors thread in tournament news.

I will be making a lengthy post in a couple of hours as I have things to do at the moment

Denis_Jessop
19-11-2004, 03:42 PM
Thought I would create a new thread on the title. It comes from Smerdon at the World Juniors thread in tournament news.

I will be making a lengthy post in a couple of hours as I have things to do at the moment

It also is mentioned in posts #35 and 36 on the Olympiad team in 2010 thread.

Denis Jessop

Garvinator
19-11-2004, 03:45 PM
It also is mentioned in posts #35 and 36 on the Olympiad team in 2010 thread.

Denis Jessop
well now there is a thread all on its own for this topic ;)

ursogr8
19-11-2004, 03:53 PM
well now there is a thread all on its own for this topic ;)

While we are on the topic of metrics...
BHCC lost around 60 members in 2003 (I.e did not renew their subs) and it looks likely to loose around 47 different individuals in 2004. Total is 100+.

This loss occurred when our membership is at an all-time high and is a monotonically increasing sequence. (The membership that is, not the loss-rate).

(Probably similar loss-rate figures for WHJ, but scaling is 50% of BHCC).


starter

The_Wise_Man
27-11-2004, 12:44 AM
I believe the best way to promote chess to 18-30 year olds (both former juniors and new players) is to emphasize the "Balanced Lifestyle".

There will always be the core group of players in this age group that will want to play as much as possible but most players will have other interests.

Weekenders may not be solution to this group. This group may not have the time to dedicate 2 to 3 whole days to playing chess or may wish not to dedicate 2 to 3 days to playing chess.

A vast majority of junior players play only 1 competitive game a week (school's chess) and maybe a tournament or two in the school holidays.
Maybe we should be guiding this group to the various chess clubs where they can allocate their 3-4 hours a week and play their 1 competitive game per week. Let them know that they are still part of the chess community and understand that chess is probably further down on their list of priorities (to education, a career, partying, starting a family etc).

If we can get this group playing one game a week, then it will be better than losing them altogether... Should we be identifying the playing habits of our juniors and specifically targeting "Balanced Lifestyle/Social Aspect" of chess.

Its a thought! From personal experience I left the scene for close to 10 years and have only been playing again for 2 years. In the first year I said that I wanted to devote 1 night a week to chess and only 1 night, no weekenders, no State Championships etc.... In my second year I have continued to play my 1 night a week in addition to Doeberl Cup and NSW Open. I am happy to play again in these tournaments and continue to play once a week at my club. Thats my commitment.... and its all part of a Balanced Lifestyle...

What have we got to lose!

Wise

Alan Shore
27-11-2004, 04:48 PM
I will be making a lengthy post in a couple of hours as I have things to do at the moment

What ever happened to the lengthy post? :confused:

Alan Shore
27-11-2004, 04:54 PM
I believe the best way to promote chess to 18-30 year olds (both former juniors and new players) is to emphasize the "Balanced Lifestyle".

There will always be the core group of players in this age group that will want to play as much as possible but most players will have other interests.

Weekenders may not be solution to this group. This group may not have the time to dedicate 2 to 3 whole days to playing chess or may wish not to dedicate 2 to 3 days to playing chess.

A vast majority of junior players play only 1 competitive game a week (school's chess) and maybe a tournament or two in the school holidays.
Maybe we should be guiding this group to the various chess clubs where they can allocate their 3-4 hours a week and play their 1 competitive game per week. Let them know that they are still part of the chess community and understand that chess is probably further down on their list of priorities (to education, a career, partying, starting a family etc).

If we can get this group playing one game a week, then it will be better than losing them altogether... Should we be identifying the playing habits of our juniors and specifically targeting "Balanced Lifestyle/Social Aspect" of chess.

Its a thought! From personal experience I left the scene for close to 10 years and have only been playing again for 2 years. In the first year I said that I wanted to devote 1 night a week to chess and only 1 night, no weekenders, no State Championships etc.... In my second year I have continued to play my 1 night a week in addition to Doeberl Cup and NSW Open. I am happy to play again in these tournaments and continue to play once a week at my club. Thats my commitment.... and its all part of a Balanced Lifestyle...

What have we got to lose!

Wise

The funny thing with chess is that for some people it can become an obsession, hence it is a good idea to encourage a balance. Not only this but make something more out of events.. as I've alluded to once before, it's a reason I think the Adelaide Uni Open is such a successful event because of the social atmosphere, transfer tournament, videos upstairs, table tennis and free dinner! The more activities available at events, the better I believe the interest would be for young people to attend.

PHAT
27-11-2004, 05:36 PM
I believe the best way to promote chess to 18-30 year olds (both former juniors and new players) is to emphasize the "Balanced Lifestyle"...

What have we got to lose!

Wise

Nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I suggested to the NSWCA council that we offer the players who are starting to leave the junior ranks, free antry into some number of our NSWCA open tournaments

I was given the big raz because "everyone must pay!"

No promotion
No reaping the fruits of the JCL efforts.
No phkn future.

I also suggested "Bring a friend and you both enter half price" - to bring back former players.

This got the big raz too. "Everyone must pay. We are not a charity. The sky will fall."

This current NSWCA mob are good at assembly-line work, but don't expect to see them a the design office.

Bill Gletsos
27-11-2004, 05:43 PM
Nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I suggested to the NSWCA council that we offer the players who are starting to leave the junior ranks, free antry into some number of our NSWCA open tournaments

I was given the big raz because "everyone must pay!"

No promotion
No reaping the fruits of the JCL efforts.
No phkn future.
The juniors pay to compete in junior events why should they get free entry into adult events. Even the junior league rep wasnt in favour of your proposal and his experience with juniors far exceeds yours any day.


I also suggested "Bring a friend and you both enter half price" - to bring back former players.

This got the big raz too. "Everyone must pay. We are not a charity. The sky will fall."
It was the council's opinion that entry fees were not a factor in stopping people returning to chess.


This current NSWCA mob are good at assembly-line work, but don't expect to see them a the design office.
You as usual wouldnt have a clue.

Alan Shore
27-11-2004, 07:30 PM
The juniors pay to compete in junior events why should they get free entry into adult events. Even the junior league rep wasnt in favour of your proposal and his experience with juniors far exceeds yours any day.

They're free here.


It was the council's opinion that entry fees were not a factor in stopping people returning to chess.

Funny that, since a number of people I speak to often quote high entry fees as a factor in their non-attendance. And as usual, the Council aka 'dinosaurs' aren't exactly in the age demographic to make any such assumptions.


You as usual wouldnt have a clue.

Contrariwise, I think Matt's idea is quite novel.

ursogr8
27-11-2004, 08:09 PM
A vast majority of junior players play only 1 competitive game a week (school's chess) and maybe a tournament or two in the school holidays.
Maybe we should be guiding this group to the various chess clubs where they can allocate their 3-4 hours a week and play their 1 competitive game per week. Let them know that they are still part of the chess community and understand that chess is probably further down on their list of priorities (to education, a career, partying, starting a family etc).

Wise

This is a good thread with lots of thought-provoking ideas. I don't think Victoria has found a solution to the loss of young players as other interests compete for their attention.
Where we do seem to differ a bit is that we don't really have a transition from junior tournaments to senior. It is hard for me to be introspective and see this clearly. What is clear is that we have very few junior tournaments. Thus, keen juniors (from U8 to U14) very quickly seek out the combined adult-junior events and enter into these.
Juniors (U10) who are able to play without be disruptive, who can keep score, and who are willing to join a coaching group, are welcomed into Club events like the Box Hill OPEN (http://www.boxhillchess.org.au/e2004/e0409fop/crosstable.htm) assured of competitve games and prize-money all the way down the divisions.
Juniors are able to play Friday, and/or Tuesday, and/or Sunday and there is graduated challenge without the need to undergo the transition into a new environment. U10's, in their first game of tournament chess, could find themselves playing a patzer 80 year-old. There is no feeling of......I have played juniors for 3 years, now I have to step up to seniors.

Just some isolated thoughts.


starter

ps......and because there is no transition, there is no need to for the concessional entry debate that was raised by Matt. Juniors (U10) start paying their way in their very first senior event, and can expect to win most of the rating prizes as they are under-rated (oops, sorry Bill...I meant to say...improving rapidly). Who needs discounted entry when juicy prizes are there to be won?

Bill Gletsos
27-11-2004, 08:39 PM
They're free here.
Where is here.
And what events are free.
As far as I was aware most junior events in QLD had entry fees.


Funny that, since a number of people I speak to often quote high entry fees as a factor in their non-attendance. And as usual, the Council aka 'dinosaurs' aren't exactly in the age demographic to make any such assumptions.
You are not a NSW player so what would you know.


Contrariwise, I think Matt's idea is quite novel.
Novel but not worthwhile

Alan Shore
27-11-2004, 08:47 PM
Where is here.
And what events are free.
As far as I was aware most junior events in QLD had entry fees.

Four times a year, there are GC shopping centre events for juniors with free entry. These have generated up to around 200 entrants. Junior tournaments with entry fees have yielded significantly lower numbers (less than half). The Brisbane events were popular too until we ran out of organisers.


You are not a NSW player so what would you know.

You are not a recent junior, so what would you know! :cool:


Novel but not worthwhile

What's that quote advertising the Northern Territory a few years back..

'You'll never never know if you never never go!'

Bill Gletsos
27-11-2004, 10:16 PM
Four times a year, there are GC shopping centre events for juniors with free entry. These have generated up to around 200 entrants. Junior tournaments with entry fees have yielded significantly lower numbers (less than half). The Brisbane events were popular too until we ran out of organisers.
The real test of course would be how many of those that only played in the free entry events continued playing in events where there was an entry fee.
If they all drop out after a few years its of no ongoing benefit.


You are not a recent junior, so what would you know! :cool:
When its comes to NSW significantly more than you and our Junior League people would know more about juniors than you.


What's that quote advertising the Northern Territory a few years back..

'You'll never never know if you never never go!'
You dont have to try to walk on water to know that you will fail.
Therefore you dont have to try Matt's ideas for the same reason.

Garvinator
28-11-2004, 12:02 AM
What ever happened to the lengthy post? :confused:
the lengthy post went out the window and will probably stay there.

PHAT
28-11-2004, 01:19 AM
The real test of course would be how many of those that only played in the free entry events continued playing in events where there was an entry fee.
If they all drop out after a few years its of no ongoing benefit.


If just 1 in 50 do not drop out, then 4 of the 200 become long term members of the chess community. Do that in 25 shopping malls each year across the country and you have 1000 new (extra) players in a decade. Now THAT would be novel.

:wall:

But YOU would will not allow ANY new idea to be trialled or a revamped old idea to be retried.

You stand for absolute stagnation.

Garvinator
28-11-2004, 01:43 AM
moderators, I am making a pre emptive request. If this thread degenerates into another bill v matt flamewar,that it be stopped very early, please. This board doesnt need flamewars if we want to attract new posters and keep the ones we have.

boardumb
28-11-2004, 10:14 AM
This is a good thread with lots of thought-provoking ideas. I don't think Victoria has found a solution to the loss of young players as other interests compete for their attention.
Where we do seem to differ a bit is that we don't really have a transition from junior tournaments to senior. It is hard for me to be introspective and see this clearly. What is clear is that we have very few junior tournaments. Thus, keen juniors (from U8 to U14) very quickly seek out the combined adult-junior events and enter into these.

starter

Well starter, from the specific PoV of BHCC, I turned up to play my first tournament in nearly 3 years at the winter interclub, apart from half a tournament at the xmas swiss...

A few things came to mind when you talk about retaining "young adults"
1) This can't really be helped I don't think, and it's not really specific to this demographic, but Box Hill is a real hike for a lot of people, and esp. since this demographic might either be moving out of home, or not have a car etc., staggering up to Box Hill is a bit more difficult.

2) As mentioned before, Weekenders tend not to be great for most young adults who either can't or don't want to spend a whole weekend playing chess

3) Friday nights are a pretty bad time for this demographic. Although I attended the interclub this year, I'm not sure I'll turn up again next year to defend it with the team, seeing all the parties etc. I missed to play week after week.

4) If you do want to attract this demographic back, you'll probably need to advertise out of the 'normal' chess avenues, and try and advertise in universities. The number of names I recognise as former juniors in my dept is quite amazing, but as far as i know, none of them plays chess anywhere near regularly

5) One thing I think is a good idea are the allegro tournaments that just take up an evening or afternoon, and promotion of these probably could take as much effort as those for the Vic Championships and what not...

6) Of course there's always the problem of whether it's economically feasible to do this...

ursogr8
28-11-2004, 10:44 AM
Well starter, from the specific PoV of BHCC, I turned up to play my first tournament in nearly 3 years at the winter interclub, apart from half a tournament at the xmas swiss...

hello b...d...
Don't think I have had the pleasure of responding to you previously.
I am presuming from your first sentence that you are not a BH member and visit from quite some distance away? Always glad to see visitors.


A few things came to mind when you talk about retaining "young adults"
1) This can't really be helped I don't think, and it's not really specific to this demographic, but Box Hill is a real hike for a lot of people, and esp. since this demographic might either be moving out of home, or not have a car etc., staggering up to Box Hill is a bit more difficult.

I think I agree with the point you are making here. Yes, we did attract a lot of first-timers when we first moved to new premises (which are attractive when you get there). But many found the hike from 10k+ away too much and we lost a lot of those. Hopefully the GURU's new Club in Caulfield will suit your locale better.


2) As mentioned before, Weekenders tend not to be great for most young adults who either can't or don't want to spend a whole weekend playing chess
BHCC has never been big on week-enders.......I think we have run only 2 in the past 5 years, perhaps 10 years. Weekenders are not great for chess admins.


3) Friday nights are a pretty bad time for this demographic. Although I attended the interclub this year, I'm not sure I'll turn up again next year to defend it with the team, seeing all the parties etc. I missed to play week after week.

We are open Tuesday night with a field of 40 b...d...
You would be welcome then.


4) If you do want to attract this demographic back, you'll probably need to advertise out of the 'normal' chess avenues, and try and advertise in universities. The number of names I recognise as former juniors in my dept is quite amazing, but as far as i know, none of them plays chess anywhere near regularly

I don't think we will be chasing that demographic back.
In fact we are operating with a cap on memberships...we are not advertising for more.
What Melbourne does need is more Clubs.



5) One thing I think is a good idea are the allegro tournaments that just take up an evening or afternoon, and promotion of these probably could take as much effort as those for the Vic Championships and what not...

We have ALLEGROS on some Fridays, some Tuesdays, and the 3rd Sunday in most months. Look fwd to seeing you there.


6) Of course there's always the problem of whether it's economically feasible to do this...

It is feasible economically, provided that prize funds stay at the current level. If an escalation of prize-money is sought then we would have to chase sponsorship dollars from outside the chess community.

starter

Spiny Norman
28-11-2004, 04:48 PM
In respect of juniors making the transition to adult chessplayers ... is anyone keeping statistics on such things? If not, why not?

If you have some useful stats then it ought to be possible to measure whether selected changes make an improvement, or not (as the case may be). Yes, I know this is stating the bleeding obvious, but I think its important and ought to be said.

Let me give you an example from a different area in which I have some knowledge. I know a church which started keeping stats on how many new Christians joined ... then tracked them over the next 2-5 years to see how many stayed long-term. The results were disappointing, as around 90% of the new converts gradually drifted away again. They tried getting them hooked up into "Bible study" groups led by experienced Christians, so as to help them over the transition period. This made no discernable difference.

Then some bright spark said "Why don't we let them teach themselves, rather than having old stick-in-the-mud Christians like us teaching them what to do". After the howls of protest died down they decided to give it a try and measure the outcome.

To their surprise they found that their retention rate climbed from less than 15% to more than 60%.

I think retaining junior players into adulthood would have to be just about the single most important factor in developing a vibrant chess community in this country.

So ... what are the stats today ... and if we don't have any, how can we start gathering them?

PHAT
29-11-2004, 09:07 AM
So ... what are the stats today ... and if we don't have any, how can we start gathering them?

This is a very simple exersize - much more simple than you may expect!

Using NSW as an example:

1. Obtain master list of NSWJCL from R.G-H.
2. Obtain master list of ACF from B.G.

3. Cut and paste both data sets into a spreadsheet.
4. Use the <sort> function to obtain NSW only players from the ACF list
5. Sort those players into !!, !, [none], ?, ??

Now:
Count the "!!" and who are on [i]both[i] lists (NSWJCL and ACF)
Count "!" players and ditto
Count the [none]s and ditto
Count the "?" and ditto
Count "??"and ditto

We can assume some generalisations/approximations:

That "!!" players are junors who have made the transition from JNR to SEN and are active.

That "!" players are junors who have made the transition from JNR to SEN and are either new to SEN or are fading away from chess.

That [none] players are junors who have made the transition from JNR to SEN and are either new to SEN or are fading away from chess.

That "?" players are junors who have made the transition from JNR to SEN and are either new to SEN or are fading away from chess.

That "??" players are junors who have made the transition from JNR to SEN and are either very new to SEN or are probably lost from chess.

These raw absolute numbers do not mean much unless:
The size of the base. ie the number of juniors currently active in JNR ranks is known (obtain from list)
The number of Ex-JNRs are on the ACF list. Which can be cross matched.


From these numbers you can get an interesting and useful snap-shot of the %rate of successful JUN to SEN transitions. If you were to follow-up this snap shot in 12 months to see what has happen to the individual "!", [none]s, and "?" players, you could say more accuritely what catagory they were in the first snap shot 12 months before.


If you need some help to do this, Frosty, just send me an e-mail.

:D

Spiny Norman
29-11-2004, 06:48 PM
If you need some help to do this, Frosty, just send me an e-mail. :D

Mmmm. I don't think I'll be doing that ... but any activities that I get involved in with respect to chess will certainly keep stats for later analysis.

I've seen first hand how helpful this can be to other organisations. e.g. one with which I am associated has discovered that for every 100 visitors they get roughly 9-10 new long-term members. So they just work real hard at activities that bring new people in the door. Doesn't matter who they are or what the activity may be.

Its held up remarkably well over the past 12-18 months and they've increased membership by about 30-40 people as a result.

I would have thought that this sort of thing would be priority NUMBER 1 for each and every chess club and state administration. My responsibilities don't lie there (yet).

Cat
29-11-2004, 07:03 PM
This is an area I have been harping on about for the last couple of years. We haven't kept statistics on the Gold Coast because despite having one of the most vibrant junior clubs in Australia, our retention rate is appallingly low.

The problem for Australian chess is that it is weighed down by ancient practices and vestiges, it cannot adapt to a rapidly changing environment with it's constipated committees & pregnant protacols and seems oblivious to the threatened decimation of club chess the internet poses. It clings to out-moded traditions and fails to paint any clear picture for growth, or at least to maintain share.

At a time of a boom in junior chess, the internet threatens to drain the life blood out of our club structure - so much so that it is hard to imagine anyone in their teens today being bothered to take a trip downtown to the local club 10 years from now, when they can play to their hearts content in the comfort of their own home.

If ever there was a time when Australian Chess was in need of a 'make-over' this is it. So old are some of the practices, it would be better to imagine starting from scratch. If I were constructing a structure to support, maintain and cultivate interest in Australian Chess, what would I do? I'm not saying everything should go, but rather try to imagine what should be best practice, compare that with current practice and then write in the steps that would facilitate the transition.

Look at what other sporting bodies are doing, what can we learn from AFL (say)? Where do our best prospects for finance lie? That I can say without equivocation, is from education. How do we better integrate with education? While Rome burns the fiddlers play. Take professional advice and move on.

Alan Shore
02-12-2004, 03:21 PM
I wonder if anyone has figures on the junior drop-out rate of other sports such as cricket, football etc. ? Perhaps the junior drop-out rate when compared with other activities will probably not look so bad.

Of course, there will be those who would argue physical limitations in continuing demanding sports beyond a certain age, however the largest drop-out occurs upon leaving school, at a time when sportsmen certainly have the ability to continue.

Spiny Norman
03-12-2004, 06:49 AM
This following post is just "thinking out loud" ... but I'm trying to think outside the square in order to find ways of really improving the status and visibility of the chess community in this country.

One of the things I'm curious about is the "lawn bowls" community. Apparently they have around 300,000 members Australia-wide. Why?

And why couldn't chess aspire to a similar number of active members?

After all, bowls requires you to "buy a uniform" so the capital costs are higher to get involved. The clubs need to own substantial parcels of land ... chess doesn't have the same impediments from a setup perspective.

They've reinvented themselves over the past 20 years or so, from an "old folks hit-n-giggle" pastime into an international sport (e.g. Commonwealth Games) with real TV coverage and growing junior memberships.

How did they do this? How could we learn from this?

There are probably other parallels in other sports that could at least be looked at to see if there are useful lessons ... I'm thinking of the state world cricket was in prior to World Series Cricket and the way that the game has been rejuvenated as a result (e.g. introduction of one-day games, because that's the stuff that the general public really wanted to see).

Q: Has any reputable University ever conducted a study to see whether playing chess regularly has a beneficial effect in terms of cognitive ability in the aged?

If not, how would one go about getting such a study commissioned? I wonder what the benefits to the chess community might be over the long term (in an ageing population) if it were discovered that playing competitive chess was beneficial in respect of the ageing process.

jay_vee
03-12-2004, 08:04 AM
Q: Has any reputable University ever conducted a study to see whether playing chess regularly has a beneficial effect in terms of cognitive ability in the aged?


Nothing I know of about chess in particular, but some studies for general "mind activities", chess, bridge, cross words, etc.

Recently, the somewhat reputable New England Journal of Medicine published a study showing a negative correlation between such activities and developing Alzheimer's or other forms of dementia.

I think, this is it:
Verghese, J., Lipton, R.B., Katz, M.J., Hall, C.B., Derby, C.A., Kuslansky, G., Ambrose, A.F., Sliwinski, M. & Buschke, H. 2003. Leisure Activities and the Risk of Dementia in the Elderly. New England Journal of Medicine, 348 (25), 2508-2516.

arosar
03-12-2004, 08:17 AM
Yes, that's it. I have the complete article in .txt format.

AR

Spiny Norman
03-12-2004, 08:38 AM
Yes, that's it. I have the complete article in .txt format.

Any chance you could email it to me AR? [deleted]".

BTW, before anyone posts and says "shouldn't post your email, you'll get spammed" ... that address is about 8-9 years old now and I regularly get >400 spam emails a day to it. Fortunately I have spam filtering that cleans up >95% of the rubbish.

Rincewind
03-12-2004, 08:43 AM
BTW, before anyone posts and says "shouldn't post your email, you'll get spammed" ... that address is about 8-9 years old now and I regularly get >400 spam emails a day to it. Fortunately I have spam filtering that cleans up >95% of the rubbish.

Amiel,

Be sure to make the subject line "Cheap Viagra Prescriptions". :D

PHAT
03-12-2004, 08:51 AM
Q: Has any reputable University ever conducted a study to see whether playing chess regularly has a beneficial effect in terms of cognitive ability in the aged?


Google is your friend.

http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~jimmyd/summaries/salthouse1989.html

http://fairmodel.econ.yale.edu/aging/

and many others

And this one I heard on the radio a few weeks back. This is a transcript. http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/mind/stories/s1235052.htm

Spiny Norman
03-12-2004, 08:51 AM
Be sure to make the subject line "Cheap Viagra Prescriptions". :D

They're the ones that are set to bypass the normal filters ... along with anything with the word "penis" in it. ;)

PHAT
03-12-2004, 08:57 AM
After all, bowls requires you to "buy a uniform" so the capital costs are higher to get involved. The clubs need to own substantial parcels of land ... chess doesn't have the same impediments from a setup perspective.


Are these realy "impediments". Perhaps they act as insentives to stay after starting.

Spiny Norman
03-12-2004, 05:38 PM
Are these realy "impediments". Perhaps they act as insentives to stay after starting.

Maybe that's true. It probably weeds out the tyre-kickers from the process. It also attaches an additional substantial dollar value to the whole concept of "being a member at a bowls club". Perhaps people like to get dressed up in their whites and be seen to be a bowler. Who knows?

I tend to think that "we" often don't charge enough for what we offer (whether that be chess club memberships, or something else). I also think that one of the reasons we don't charge more is because we're either not confident in the value that we offer the customer or else we're just not in a position to offer enough additional value-adds to the core offering.

For many chess clubs, what does membership really offer them? Perhaps some of the more experienced people here could articulate the value of membership (I haven't been around long enough to do this myself based on personal experience). All I can think of is:

- the right to play regularly at the club's venue (and i'm sure there's a huge variation in quality of venues on offer)
- the right to enter tournaments (perhaps a discount on tournament entry)
- the opportunity to have your games rated and thus compare your performance against others around the state/country

Is that really all it is? Over to y'all ...

Perhaps it would be useful to look at what we currently offer the customer and work out what additional value we ought to be providing to them ... and work out how much more they'd be prepared to pay for that added value? That's a time-honoured way of doing things in the business world. It also applies in other sports (e.g. AFL, NRL, etc) where there are a variety of grades of membership with added value at each level.

For those that can't afford to pay more (e.g. students, pensioners, unemployed) lets find creative ways to subsidise their participation so they're not left out.

Denis
05-12-2004, 12:48 PM
The way to keep juniors in chess would be to promote the social aspect of it. In our club. The box hill chess club, sometimes I feel that our age group is unwelcome, and that age group being 18, teens. And being a bit older we are more boisterous and make some extra noise. And constantly we get told off for making too much noise and walking around too much and arm wrestling and gambling and what not.
I think there should be an area set out for where we can arm wrestle and play cards and gamble, win the little kids moneys, and have a good laugh. Because the chess game is only a fraction of the reason why we come, we come to see some old mates and make new ones. And it would be great if the organizers were prehaps a little more understanding and instead of threatening to ban us from the chess club they could just ask us to be more quiet and move to another area.
Also I have suggested this in the past, and it fell on deaf ears, but cheerleaders would be a great addition to our club. We have that stage up the front that would be a great place for them and the lighting there is good. Maybe poledancing every third week to mix it up. Prehaps opening up a bar section to our canteen would also be a great addition with some cocktail mixers.
As our world evolves so must the club, to suit the needs of the people that are the lifeblood of it and keep those chess pieces pumping. :evilb:

boardumb
05-12-2004, 04:09 PM
I'm with the Denis.

Spiny Norman
05-12-2004, 04:29 PM
Hey Denis ... why not start up your own club? Do a partnership deal with a local pub or similar for a venue.

Mind you, I somehow suspect you won't get much chess played, what with all that pole-dancing and such like going on. :eek:

Denis
05-12-2004, 04:53 PM
Its funny you should mention that, Mr Frosty-Ice-Cold. I was strolling the streets of fair Ciaro in Egypt a week past, as you do, and Lo and behold, I chanced upon this street chess cafe. Now the barman at this normal, every day, cafe loved all the players and gave them half price food and everything and they sat there playing in their droves munching on food and stuff and playing chess.
Ive also seen this in Los Angeles in America, and if I do remember correctly they do this at the Bullwinkle chess club up in Queensland (a bit of pole dancing goes on there).
So why not, its a good idea, it brings in customers, and people like to watch chess. Ill see if I can get a pole dancing chess competition venue happening.
:smoker:

ursogr8
05-12-2004, 05:47 PM
The way to keep juniors in chess would be to promote the social aspect of it. In our club. The box hill chess club, sometimes I feel that our age group is unwelcome, and that age group being 18, teens. And being a bit older we are more boisterous and make some extra noise. And constantly we get told off for making too much noise and walking around too much and arm wrestling and gambling and what not.
I think there should be an area set out for where we can arm wrestle and play cards and gamble, win the little kids moneys, and have a good laugh. Because the chess game is only a fraction of the reason why we come, we come to see some old mates and make new ones. And it would be great if the organizers were prehaps a little more understanding and instead of threatening to ban us from the chess club they could just ask us to be more quiet and move to another area.
Also I have suggested this in the past, and it fell on deaf ears, but cheerleaders would be a great addition to our club. We have that stage up the front that would be a great place for them and the lighting there is good. Maybe poledancing every third week to mix it up. Prehaps opening up a bar section to our canteen would also be a great addition with some cocktail mixers.
As our world evolves so must the club, to suit the needs of the people that are the lifeblood of it and keep those chess pieces pumping. :evilb:

Denis
Some parts of your post are just tongue in cheek, and I am not sure which.
But it is great post because it identifies a key problem that needs some attention, regularly.
For each of the issues that you raise there is already a decision-maker and a decision manager for the dilemma. For example, there is already a clear management view on the right to arm-wrestle. What I hear from your post is that you want a review of such rights. We are a long-standing Club and have a mechanism for discussing ideas...called a Committee. Now, you did a good job on the VIC OPEN Committee, so why not stand for BHCC Committee? I will personally nominate you (and the arm-wrestler).

If you want to move chess communities in this direction then there is no shortage of Committee vacancies. I could get you on WHJC and CV also.

While we are rented premises our standards will necessarily be different from MCC standards. But, I digress, join the Comiittee, your next challenge.

starter

ursogr8
05-12-2004, 05:51 PM
...and make some extra noise. And constantly we get told off for making too much noise

Denis
This though is just not correct.
The worst noise offenders are xx,xx,xx,xx,xx.....all adults. (PM me to guess their names).
starter

WhiteElephant
05-12-2004, 07:56 PM
In the old days, when I was a junior at Waverley Chess Club, the reason we had such a thriving junior scene was because many of the top players of the time (Darryl J, Murray Smith, Matthew Drummond and others) used to hang around at the club and interract with us mere juniors. We would get coaching tips, regularly play in tournaments with these guys and generally feel like we were a part of the chess scene even though we had a long way to improve to reach their level. In how many sports do players get the opportunity to interract with and learn from their idols?

It's a funny thing that when these top players drifted away from the club, many of the juniors (myself included) simply stopped playing chess. Obviously there were many contributing factors to this, but playing in a junior chess vacuum can be a little dull. From what I have seen, Box Hill is making good inroads towards attracting top players to tournaments. I think that Denis has hit the nail on the head, that juniors need to be able to feel part of the social scene of the club to want to keep coming back. Perhaps the key to the retention of juniors begins with attracting and retaining top-level players who will be able to teach and inspire the juniors.

W.E.

ursogr8
05-12-2004, 08:55 PM
In the old days, when I was a junior at Waverley Chess Club, the reason we had such a thriving junior scene was because many of the top players of the time (Darryl J, Murray Smith, Matthew Drummond and others) used to hang around at the club and interract with us mere juniors. We would get coaching tips, regularly play in tournaments with these guys and generally feel like we were a part of the chess scene even though we had a long way to improve to reach their level. In how many sports do players get the opportunity to interract with and learn from their idols?

It's a funny thing that when these top players drifted away from the club, many of the juniors (myself included) simply stopped playing chess. Obviously there were many contributing factors to this, but playing in a junior chess vacuum can be a little dull. From what I have seen, Box Hill is making good inroads towards attracting top players to tournaments. I think that Denis has hit the nail on the head, that juniors need to be able to feel part of the social scene of the club to want to keep coming back. Perhaps the key to the retention of juniors begins with attracting and retaining top-level players who will be able to teach and inspire the juniors.

W.E.
Great post W.E.
We need more courageous statements (like yours) about why Clubs succeed and Clubs falter.

Box Hill has not been able to get anywhere near the quality of field that plays in the MCC Championship, nor the best of the Waverley Championships. This is a substantial gap in our development as a quality chess club. Even if you were currently rated 1900 you would just make it into the top 30 seeds at BH; however, we still lack the top-rated participation that is achieved at MCC regularly, and over a long time.
The players are around (Woodhams, Johanson, Hamilton, Wills, West, and many others). But they are not regularly attracted to BH.

We succeeeded first-off with the 2004 VIC OPEN where a quality field was attracted to good prizes. And the recent BH OPEN had a $500 first prize that attracted some 2100+ players. But essentially, we are failing our objective.

You (W.E) propose a social scene (instead of prize-money) might solve this dilemma. On the other hand Denis (tongue in cheek) is proposing hoppo-bumpo, arm-wrestling and pole-dancing.

Are you a candidate to join our Committee W.E. ?

starter

PHAT
05-12-2004, 09:41 PM
What I hear from your post is that you want a review of such rights. We are a long-standing Club and have a mechanism for discussing ideas...called a Committee.

You must have had a Bill Gletsos moment just then.

PHAT
05-12-2004, 09:45 PM
...Now the barman at this normal, every day, cafe loved all the players and gave them half price food and everything and they sat there playing in their droves munching on food and stuff and playing chess.
Ive also seen this in Los Angeles in America, and if I do remember correctly they do this at the Bullwinkle chess club up in Queensland (a bit of pole dancing goes on there).


If sydney was to have such a place the old fuddy-duddies at the NSWJCL would call it the bad lands, refuse to back it, and warn their juniors not to go.

PHAT
05-12-2004, 09:47 PM
Perhaps the key to the retention of juniors begins with attracting and retaining top-level players who will be able to teach and inspire the juniors.

Chicken and egg.

PHAT
05-12-2004, 10:00 PM
There is simply not enough laughing and humour in chess clubs and at events. Look around them, half are android cyborgs over 40 and half are under 25 and having a laugh.

Bring on the arm wrestling, bring a plate/bottle nights, movies and nude blindfold Twister.

EDIT: :uhoh: Since I wish to continue playing in Wollongong, I had better say that there are plenty of +40s going on 25 here :)

Bill Gletsos
05-12-2004, 10:05 PM
If sydney was to have such a place the old fuddy-duddies at the NSWJCL would call it the bad lands, refuse to back it, and warn their juniors not to go.
The point is that you continually fail to realise is that the majority of the NSWJCL committee is made up of parents of juniors. They are representing the views of the parents.

WhiteElephant
05-12-2004, 10:05 PM
The thing that has impressed me about Box Hill is that nearly ALL of Victoria's top juniors regularly play there.

The atmosphere at Box Hill and MCC is very different and that is not necessarily a bad thing. MCC is old-skool and attracts the older, long-standing players while Box Hill is definitely more junior-friendly and attracts a more varied crowd. Box Hill is still developing as a chess club while MCC has reached a level of maturity. So MCC regularly attracts the same strong players to its tournaments due to its tradition and name. Box Hill will need to develop this.

What is the best way to do this is the question.

Going back to my point about juniors, the level of juniors today is much higher than in my day 15 or so years ago. I was one of Victoria's top juniors with a rating around 1700 (at the time) whereas today I probably would barely squeeze into the top 20. If Box Hill is able to retain some of the current junior players, then they will become mentors to the new generation of juniors rather than having to entice strong players from other clubs. So long as there is regular junior coaching from strong players who act as mentors (which is more or less happening now) the current juniors will continue to develop and take on the senior player roles.

In the meantime, it is important to keep those current juniors happy through strong coaching, competitive tournaments and maybe not pole dancing but a tolerant and friendly atmosphere.

W.E.

PHAT
05-12-2004, 10:13 PM
The point is that you continually fail to realise is that the majority of the NSWJCL committee is made up of parents of juniors. They are representing the views of the parents.

Old fuddy-duddies and probably PC, middle class, power-walkers, as well.

Bill Gletsos
05-12-2004, 10:17 PM
Old fuddy-duddies and probably PC, middle class, power-walkers, as well.
As usual with the NSWJCL you have absolutely no clue what you talking about.

PHAT
05-12-2004, 10:35 PM
As usual with the NSWJCL you have absolutely no clue what you talking about.
Ho bloody ho ho. So they are a bunch of disrespectful, working class, p.sspots?

mike_salter
05-12-2004, 10:35 PM
This whole retention problem - not a recent phenomenon by any means - occupied my thoughts quite a bit when I was the NSWJCL rep on the NSWCA council for a couple of years in the mid-nineties.

And I've had no reason to reconsider the general conclusion I came to then, which was that the best simple way to improve the retention rate was to ensure that university chess flourished.

When I came to Sydney Uni in 1992 there was no chess club. Ditto, at that time, UNSW (as far as I know). Ditto Macquarie. Ditto UWS. Is it any wonder then that a lot of the stronger NSW junior players of that era (Pete Cotton, Robert Cregan, James Yardley, Andrew Boldeman etc.) simply stopped playing at around 17/18/19? The senior club "scene", based as it is in NSW mainly around Leagues Clubs, simply does not provide a congenial atmosphere for most people of that age. As Denis implied eariler on this thread, 18/19/20-year-olds need to be in an atmosphere where they feel at home and welcome. The sad truth is that most senior clubs, whatever efforts they make (and I know some of them, Canterbury for example, make every effort to accommodate and cater to all age groups) will not provide a socially congenial/stimulating environment for recent ex-juniors.

Most Australian juniors who reach a certain level at the game have the socio-economic background and the intellectual calibre that leads naturally to tertiary study. Universities teem with clubs, societies, etc. of all kinds, and you would think that chess would occupy a prominent place. But from what I've seen (this is limited to NSW here) university chess is probably in a worse state even than it was in the mid-nineties.

WhiteElephant
05-12-2004, 10:42 PM
This whole retention problem - not a recent phenomenon by any means - occupied my thoughts quite a bit when I was the NSWJCL rep on the NSWCA council for a couple of years in the mid-nineties.

And I've had no reason to reconsider the general conclusion I came to then, which was that the best simple way to improve the retention rate was to ensure that university chess flourished.

When I came to Sydney Uni in 1992 there was no chess club. Ditto, at that time, UNSW (as far as I know). Ditto Macquarie. Ditto UWS. Is it any wonder then that a lot of the stronger NSW junior players of that era (Pete Cotton, Robert Cregan, James Yardley, Andrew Boldeman etc.) simply stopped playing at around 17/18/19? The senior club "scene", based as it is in NSW mainly around Leagues Clubs, simply does not provide a congenial atmosphere for most people of that age. As Denis implied eariler on this thread, 18/19/20-year-olds need to be in an atmosphere where they feel at home and welcome. The sad truth is that most senior clubs, whatever efforts they make (and I know some of them, Canterbury for example, make every effort to accommodate and cater to all age groups) will not provide a socially congenial/stimulating environment for recent ex-juniors.

Most Australian juniors who reach a certain level at the game have the socio-economic background and the intellectual calibre that leads naturally to tertiary study. Universities teem with clubs, societies, etc. of all kinds, and you would think that chess would occupy a prominent place. But from what I've seen (this is limited to NSW here) university chess is probably in a worse state even than it was in the mid-nineties.

Excellent point. Most of the strong Waverley players I was talking about earlier were doing their Honours or Postgrad degrees at Monash Uni in Clayton and used Waverley CC as a home away from uni. When they finished their degrees they disappeared and, eventually, so did Waverley CC as we knew it.

Bill Gletsos
05-12-2004, 10:45 PM
Ho bloody ho ho. So they are a bunch of disrespectful, working class, p.sspots?
As usual not only dont you have a clue but you denigrate those that make a contribution whilst doing nothing yourself.

Paul S
05-12-2004, 10:54 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Yet another Matt versus Bill fued getting in the way of an interesting topic! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Bill Gletsos
05-12-2004, 10:56 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Yet another Matt versus Bill fued getting in the way of an interesting topic! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I'm not prepared to let that do nothing idiot denigrate the hard working people of the NSWJCL.

PHAT
05-12-2004, 11:06 PM
I'm not prepared to let that do nothing idiot denigrate the hard working people of the NSWJCL.

Any bunch, hard working or not, that won't get behind a Sydney Chess Centre deserves a serve. You, as the President of the NSWCA, which has in its constitution the statment, " Objectives: To encourage, promote, maintain and control the playing of Chess in NSW," should not be defending them from attack on this issue.

Bill Gletsos
05-12-2004, 11:13 PM
Any bunch, hard working or not, that won't get behind a Sydney Chess Centre deserves a serve. You, as the President of the NSWCA, which has in its constitution the statment, " Objectives: To encourage, promote, maintain and control the playing of Chess in NSW," should not be defending them from attack on this issue.
Firstly the only one deserving of a serve is you.
Secondly I'm defending them against unjustied attacks from a fool like you.

I just wish more of the parents who read here would come out and attack you, but I suspect they dont want to be subjected to a barrage of crude and abusive language from you with your typical FO comments.

You have no credibility.
You are a complete joke.

Alan Shore
05-12-2004, 11:38 PM
This whole retention problem - not a recent phenomenon by any means - occupied my thoughts quite a bit when I was the NSWJCL rep on the NSWCA council for a couple of years in the mid-nineties.

And I've had no reason to reconsider the general conclusion I came to then, which was that the best simple way to improve the retention rate was to ensure that university chess flourished.

When I came to Sydney Uni in 1992 there was no chess club. Ditto, at that time, UNSW (as far as I know). Ditto Macquarie. Ditto UWS. Is it any wonder then that a lot of the stronger NSW junior players of that era (Pete Cotton, Robert Cregan, James Yardley, Andrew Boldeman etc.) simply stopped playing at around 17/18/19? The senior club "scene", based as it is in NSW mainly around Leagues Clubs, simply does not provide a congenial atmosphere for most people of that age. As Denis implied eariler on this thread, 18/19/20-year-olds need to be in an atmosphere where they feel at home and welcome. The sad truth is that most senior clubs, whatever efforts they make (and I know some of them, Canterbury for example, make every effort to accommodate and cater to all age groups) will not provide a socially congenial/stimulating environment for recent ex-juniors.

Most Australian juniors who reach a certain level at the game have the socio-economic background and the intellectual calibre that leads naturally to tertiary study. Universities teem with clubs, societies, etc. of all kinds, and you would think that chess would occupy a prominent place. But from what I've seen (this is limited to NSW here) university chess is probably in a worse state even than it was in the mid-nineties.

Our university (Uni of QLD) has been doing quite well in promoting chess, we have quite a few members that are also a part of the Games society, run regular tournaments, encourage new players and those of all strengths to participate and have a fun friendly atmoshphere with prizes, chocolates and pizza nights too. Our best turnout has been 18 for a tournament so far but we're working on improving that further next year.

The things Denis has alluded to, I have mentioned before in a similar capacity - bring the fun and social atmosphere back along with a diverse range of other activities and people will attend.

ursogr8
06-12-2004, 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starter
What I hear from your post is that you want a review of such rights. We are a long-standing Club and have a mechanism for discussing ideas...called a Committee.



You must have had a Bill Gletsos moment just then.

I frequently have them, but, I know the antidote.

starter

arosar
06-12-2004, 06:36 PM
Whatever happened to Ry Curtis and Max Lieskewicz (sp)?

AR

Cat
06-12-2004, 10:01 PM
All these well meaning and intentioned sentiments will never amount to anything without a medium to long term strategic plan. An individual can be a dynamo and force for tremendous good, but unless the structure is developed, when he or she moves on all that remains is a vaccuum.

It's no good coming up with notions as to why or how things work or fail. A proper assessment is required to make an objective determination of the present state of Australian Chess and draw up a business plan. All this discussion is facile - its almost an indictment of the whoolly thinking permeating Australian Chess; this would be good, if only. Some serious self examination is required by the office bearers and principle activists if there is to be any substantial change to affect the present stagnation.

It's like a Shakespearian tragedy seeing this thread played out. The Vogons are coming and we're like ladies at a tea party. Dream on guys, dream, dream, dream.

jeffrei
06-12-2004, 10:15 PM
Whatever happened to Ry Curtis and Max Lieskewicz (sp)?

Not sure about Ry, but Mr Leskiewicz is President of ALPSA (Australian Legal Philosophy Students Association, not the ALbanian Political Science Association). http://www.alpsa.net/about.htm. I don't believe either of them have played chess for ages.

PHAT
06-12-2004, 10:34 PM
I just wish more of the parents who read here would come out and attack you, but I suspect they dont want to be subjected to a barrage of crude and abusive language from you with your typical FO comments.


Apart from your implicit characterisation of parents as p.ssweak, I could say that they simply don't won't to be standing shoulder to shoulder with you.

PHAT
06-12-2004, 10:39 PM
The Vogons are coming ...

A Vogon is already here - heading the NSWCA.

Bill Gletsos
06-12-2004, 10:50 PM
Apart from your implicit characterisation of parents as p.ssweak, I could say that they simply don't won't to be standing shoulder to shoulder with you.
The only person denigrating the NSWJCL and hence the parents on its committee is you. I have had messages from them expressing what a fool you are.

You are complete joke, with no credibility.

PHAT
06-12-2004, 10:54 PM
I have had messages from them expressing what a fool you are.

Name names.

Denis
06-12-2004, 10:55 PM
Lets face it. Whats lacking in chess that loses juniors, is women. You might debate about chocolate nights and movies and social economic functions role in society, but take a good look at yourself. Thats right, go upstairs and take a look in the mirror sonny jim. And you will see for yourself. That is the problem. :chinese:

Cat
06-12-2004, 11:07 PM
A Vogon is already here - heading the NSWCA.
Try poetry! :alien:

Bill Gletsos
06-12-2004, 11:10 PM
Name names.
Just check out names of those on the NSWJCL committee.
They are amongst them.

PHAT
06-12-2004, 11:17 PM
They are amongst them.

Which ones?

Bill Gletsos
06-12-2004, 11:24 PM
Which ones?
I'll leave that as an exercise for you to work out.

The_Wise_Man
07-12-2004, 12:36 AM
I will be most satisfied when NSW has one body controlling chess in this state....

The NSWJCL should come under the NSWCA umbrella... one voice, one direction.... that way there can be a smoother transitions from juniors to seniors.... greater resources for a Sydney chess centre and greater strength to attain sponsorship and funds.

Wise

Alan Shore
07-12-2004, 12:37 AM
Lets face it. Whats lacking in chess that loses juniors, is women. You might debate about chocolate nights and movies and social economic functions role in society, but take a good look at yourself. Thats right, go upstairs and take a look in the mirror sonny jim. And you will see for yourself. That is the problem. :chinese:

Damn straight.

Denis
08-12-2004, 10:40 AM
Is it just me or did my suggestion kill the conversation?

Do you not agree, do you disagree? Or are you just embarrassed to talk about this important issue? Isn't it important to discuss all angles of problems facing this junior retention plague? :whistle:

ursogr8
08-12-2004, 11:01 AM
Is it just me or did my suggestion kill the conversation?

Do you not agree, do you disagree? Or are you just embarrassed to talk about this important issue? Isn't it important to discuss all angles of problems facing this junior retention plague? :whistle:

Yes, it is you Denis, not your suggestion.
We are just coming to grips with your posting style.

>#34........many parts obviously tongue in cheek.
>> No response to the offers in #38.
>>> You, with the hand-grenade pin in your teeth v Phil O'Dor (in the ratings forum)
>>>> #67 ...more tongue in cheek. (Erghh, .. I wish I phrased that better, given the topic in #67).



It is probably our biggest problem. I have PM'd you.

starter

WhiteElephant
08-12-2004, 11:06 AM
Lets face it. Whats lacking in chess that loses juniors, is women. You might debate about chocolate nights and movies and social economic functions role in society, but take a good look at yourself. Thats right, go upstairs and take a look in the mirror sonny jim. And you will see for yourself. That is the problem. :chinese:

Maybe we need a 'Hot Guys of the Australian Chess Scene' Calendar for 2005 to attract more women to chess?

arosar
08-12-2004, 11:26 AM
I tell youse all what's the problem. Counter Strike!

One of Australia's most promising and strongest juniors is keen mad on it and I see him playing this all the time in cafes. It's amazing how fast these juniors grow up. It wasn't that long ago when this dude was just this little kid who could barely look over the board. Now he looks like a punk.

AR

Alan Shore
08-12-2004, 01:04 PM
I tell youse all what's the problem. Counter Strike!

One of Australia's most promising and strongest juniors is keen mad on it and I see him playing this all the time in cafes. It's amazing how fast these juniors grow up. It wasn't that long ago when this dude was just this little kid who could barely look over the board. Now he looks like a punk.

AR

Yeah, CS and Warcraft III (and now World of Warcraft)!

Libby
08-12-2004, 03:48 PM
Yeah, CS and Warcraft III (and now World of Warcraft)!

Ahh .. Warcraft. If only my daughter's dedication to chess was as great as her Warcraft obsession.

Now, on this "Men of Australian Chess" calendar theme, will that be the sort to make me put away my "Men of AFL" calendar or are we talking more of the "Naked Granny raising money for the Bowling Club concealed behind a parasol or floral arrangement" variety? :owned:

And if you want more girls at the chess club (other than the sort you pay to attend or to pole dance) you might need to invest a little around the states in developing them at a slightly earlier age than the ones you are actually interested in ogling ( :eek: ). I don't know you will get many 16-20 year old girls playing chess who weren't playing it at 12. If you can count them on the fingers of one hand in your U12 events, and they drop out slowly but surely as they hit high school, you're down to something like 0 or 1 left at the top end. The average chess club doesn't afford a lot of "boy meets girl" opportunities but even some kind of social calendar attached to the club, where people did bring their partners (and didn't dump them in a corner every time a chess set appeared) might open some possibilities.

Denis
08-12-2004, 04:46 PM
I think we just have to face the facts that Chess and girls dont really mix. :boohoo: :(

Recherché
08-12-2004, 05:23 PM
I think we just have to face the facts that Chess and girls dont really mix. :boohoo: :(

Well, they said that about oil and water, but add some egg yolk and you're well on the way to mayonnaise*. Clearly we just need to find the right emulsifier.

* For the purposes of emulsion, the vinegar in mayo is essentially water.

ursogr8
13-12-2004, 10:57 AM
The thing that has impressed me about Box Hill is that nearly ALL of Victoria's top juniors regularly play there.

The atmosphere at Box Hill and MCC is very different and that is not necessarily a bad thing. MCC is old-skool and attracts the older, long-standing players while Box Hill is definitely more junior-friendly and attracts a more varied crowd. Box Hill is still developing as a chess club while MCC has reached a level of maturity. So MCC regularly attracts the same strong players to its tournaments due to its tradition and name. Box Hill will need to develop this.

What is the best way to do this is the question.

Going back to my point about juniors, the level of juniors today is much higher than in my day 15 or so years ago. I was one of Victoria's top juniors with a rating around 1700 (at the time) whereas today I probably would barely squeeze into the top 20. If Box Hill is able to retain some of the current junior players, then they will become mentors to the new generation of juniors rather than having to entice strong players from other clubs. So long as there is regular junior coaching from strong players who act as mentors (which is more or less happening now) the current juniors will continue to develop and take on the senior player roles.

In the meantime, it is important to keep those current juniors happy through strong coaching, competitive tournaments and maybe not pole dancing but a tolerant and friendly atmosphere.

W.E.

WhiteElephant posts an insight that top juniors might be retained if they can play in an atmosphere of senior mentors.

According to the ACF Top players list (December ratings), 19 players are VICTORIAN and have a rating over 2122.

Of these 19 players, 10 did not play a rated game in the three months...itself an eye-opener.


Of the 9 players who did play a rated game in the three months, only 3 played games at Box Hill.

Of the 3 top players who played at Box Hill, only 1 was a senior.

In summary, of the 19 who might have played at Box Hill only 1 senior mentor played. (3 of the 19 are juniors).

We have to do better on this score obviously.

Perhaps the thread title may have been better phrased
"Retaining adults when they have been in adult chess for a while"

starter

Garvinator
13-12-2004, 11:00 AM
"Retaining adults when they have been in adult chess for a while"

starter
that could be another thread title :owned:

WhiteElephant
13-12-2004, 01:41 PM
Imagine the life of a 2200+ player.

You’ve worked hard to become among the best chess players in your state and your country.

You’ve finished uni, got a job (in most cases), got alife, a family – what incentive is there for you to play chess?

Playing in a chess tournament:

1) Is physically and emotionally demanding
2) Often involves crappy prizemoney
3) Takes up valuable TIME

And what is the reward?

1) Very little recognition
2) No individual sponsorship as with other sports

Some would argue that playing chess is itself the reward and it is, but unless you are Ian, Darryl, or a few others, do you really want to take on the extra stress of playing in a tournament unless there is something else in it for you?

So many of the top players limit themselves to a National/ State Championship and perhaps one other tournament a year.

In the US, many of the players in the recent US Championships are minor celebrities. This will happen in Australia too in time, as chess develops. Basically all I am saying is that in the meantime there needs to be some other incentive for top players to come to say Box Hill other than there is a Tournament being held there

I haven’t come up with any solutions I’m afraid – just a few thoughts. Perhaps this needs to be brainstormed?

ursogr8
13-12-2004, 02:20 PM
Imagine the life of a 2200+ player.

You’ve worked hard to become among the best chess players in your state and your country.

You’ve finished uni, got a job (in most cases), got alife, a family – what incentive is there for you to play chess?

Playing in a chess tournament:

1) Is physically and emotionally demanding
2) Often involves crappy prizemoney
3) Takes up valuable TIME

And what is the reward?

1) Very little recognition
2) No individual sponsorship as with other sports

Some would argue that playing chess is itself the reward and it is, but unless you are Ian, Darryl, or a few others, do you really want to take on the extra stress of playing in a tournament unless there is something else in it for you?

So many of the top players limit themselves to a National/ State Championship and perhaps one other tournament a year.

In the US, many of the players in the recent US Championships are minor celebrities. This will happen in Australia too in time, as chess develops. Basically all I am saying is that in the meantime there needs to be some other incentive for top players to come to say Box Hill other than there is a Tournament being held there

I haven’t come up with any solutions I’m afraid – just a few thoughts. Perhaps this needs to be brainstormed?

For the Box Hill OPEN there was a $500 first prize. This attracted 3 out of the 19 candidates rated above 2122; 1 a senior.
I wonder if the 'market' is price-sensitive.

DoroPhil
13-12-2004, 02:22 PM
Good post, WhiteElephant. Few assumptions of yours strike me as somewhat odd though.

1. Is chess really physically demanding for most people? Perhaps, it is emotionally demanding if people are that way inclined, but physically demanding?
2. Granted prizemoney is no longer a motivator at some point, but does this serve as a demotivator?

Overall, I think it's Catch-22 in some way: strong players are more likely to enter if there are other strong players who already entered.

WhiteElephant
13-12-2004, 02:37 PM
Good post, WhiteElephant. Few assumptions of yours strike me as somewhat odd though.

1. Is chess really physically demanding for most people? Perhaps, it is emotionally demanding if people are that way inclined, but physically demanding?
2. Granted prizemoney is no longer a motivator at some point, but does this serve as a demotivator?

Overall, I think it's Catch-22 in some way: strong players are more likely to enter if there are other strong players who already entered.

1) Hehe it is physically demanding for ME - I am exhausted after a chess game

2) I would say that when a tournament offers low-medium prizemoney, players will simply take other factors into account when making a decision whether to play. However, in the case of a large prize fund, that may be what tips a player towards entering, all other factors being equal.

The presence of strong competition is probably a more important incentive to play than prizemoney - just my opinion - don't know if strong players would agree. That is why Melbourne Chess Club regularly attracts a strong field - the top players can enter knowing that they will be challenged and can prove themselves against a tough field.

W.E.

Duff McKagan
31-12-2004, 01:35 AM
Imagine the life of a 2200+ player.

You’ve worked hard to become among the best chess players in your state and your country.

You’ve finished uni, got a job (in most cases), got alife, a family – what incentive is there for you to play chess?




That's quite a generalisation. From what I see, it all comes down to cash and prestige. Lots of people don't play chess for chess anymore. Plus some 2200+s are scared to lose rating points, lol.

WhiteElephant
31-12-2004, 02:13 AM
That's quite a generalisation. From what I see, it all comes down to cash and prestige. Lots of people don't play chess for chess anymore. Plus some 2200+s are scared to lose rating points, lol.

Yes, that sentence is intended as an intro but if you look at the rest of my post you will see that I am a lot more specific.

What you say is precisely what I am trying to get at - top players need something other than just chess as an incentive to regularly play in tournaments. Cash and prestige are at the top of the list. Until the huge sponsorships start coming in, cash is a tough one to make inroads into, because if we offer larger place prizes, we often take away from rating group prizes and vice versa. Prestige, however, is definitely something we can work on.

W.E.