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Rincewind
10-02-2014, 03:03 PM
Can you get to 'insufficient material' or 'stalemate' in under 15 moves - that could be a challenge??

Stalemate - easily

Answer (not originally by me*) in white: 1. e3 a5 2. Qh5 Ra6 3. Qxa5 h5 4. h4 Rah6 5. Qxc7 f6 6. Qxd7+ Kf7 7. Qxb7 Qd3 8. Qxb8 Qh7 9. Qxc8 Kg6 10. Qe6

Insufficient material would be more difficult.

Edit: * It was originally composed by Sam Loyd.

Kevin Bonham
11-02-2014, 04:33 PM
. Can you get to 'insufficient material' or 'stalemate' in under 15 moves - that could be a challenge??

There is a possible stalemate in 10 moves as demonstrated by the puzzle genius Sam Loyd (EDIT: this is a variant of it, Rincewind gives the correct version above):

1. c4 h5 2. h4 a5 3. Qa4 Ra6 4. Qxa5 Rah6 5. Qxc7 f6 6. Qxd7+ Kf7 7. Qxb7 Qd3 8. Qxb8 Qh7 9. Qxc8 Kg6 10. Qe6

However that is a help-stalemate. You would not get one in under 15 moves unless the players were copying that one or doing something else silly like that.

I am not sure what the fastest possible dead-position draw is but I am pretty sure it would be longer than 15 moves since a dead-position draw will typically require capture of nearly all the pieces or else extensive blocking with pawn chains.

Bill is correct - these anti-draw rules can't regulate repetitions, unless you have reason to believe the players pre-arranged the draw.

Rincewind
11-02-2014, 05:48 PM
Not that this stalemate posted by Kevin (1. c4 h5 2. h4 a5 3. Qa4 Ra6 4. Qxa5 Rah6 5. Qxc7 f6 6. Qxd7+ Kf7 7. Qxb7 Qd3 8. Qxb8 Qh7 9. Qxc8 Kg6 10. Qe6) is slightly different to the one I posted a few post earlier. It might be interesting to see if both variants are original to Loyd or whether one was composed later and possibly by a different composer. There is also a similar one attributed to Fredrick Rhine which goes 1.d4 c5 2.dxc5 f6 3.Qxd7+ Kf7 4.Qxd8 Bf5 5.Qxb8 h5 6.Qxa8 Rh6 7.Qxb7 a6 8.Qxa6 Bh7 9.h4 Kg6 10.Qe6.

Kevin Bonham
11-02-2014, 06:48 PM
Yes I found one that had been played by some juniors in a game somewhere (clearly as pre-arranged showing off) that someone attributed as the Loyd stalemate but it actually has a different move order to the original, so the person attributing it as such was wrong. And more fool me for believing them without checking it.

ElevatorEscapee
11-02-2014, 08:47 PM
And here's a compisition of my own - the shortest draw by threefold repetition!


1.Nf3 Nf6
2.Ng1 Ng8
3.Nf3 Nf6
4.Ng1 Ng8

And with the same position reached for the third time, with the same player to move, White can claim a draw by threefold repetition!

Move over Sam Lloyd, a new genius has just moved into town! ;)

Kevin Bonham
11-02-2014, 08:57 PM
Sorry, but records are made to be broken:

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.Ng1 Ng8 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Ng1

Black now writes the move 4...Ng8 on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter that he intends to play that move and claims a draw under 9.2a.

As the game is drawn from the time of his valid claim this is half a move shorter. :lol:

Rincewind
11-02-2014, 11:58 PM
The following is also due to Loyd. It is 12 moves but without any captures.

1.d4 d6 2.Qd2 e5 3.a4 e4 4.Qf4 f5 5.h3 Be7 6.Qh2 Be6 7.Ra3 c5 8.Rg3 Qa5+ 9.Nd2 Bh4 10.f3 Bb3 11.d5 e3 12.c4 f4

SHump
12-02-2014, 08:24 AM
Yes I found one that had been played by some juniors in a game somewhere (clearly as pre-arranged showing off) I think it would be interesting to see what the player with the black pieces (of the solution where lots of captures happened) just before the penultimate move (move 10)... will my opponent or won't my opponent carry through with our plan for a stalemate; would my opponent suddenly get too greedy? A level of trust amongst conspirators is needed..

Ian Rout
12-02-2014, 10:50 AM
A quick database search shows the Loyd stalemates or variations occurring a number of times. There are also a couple of other obviously pre-planned stalemates in less than 30.

There are others under 30 (though none under 15) that don’t appear to be scripted. Mainly these are low level games where one player loses most of their pieces and the other either forgets the stalemate rule or allows a basic sacrifice to jettison the last mobile piece.

However the following game looks realistic, it's possible but unlikely that it was composed or previously published as fantasy analysis.

In fact the game was played again in a 2013 Saint Petersburg game between 2000+ players; that suggests a planned copy of the earlier game.

[Event "ITA-chT 19th"]
[Site "Ravenna "]
[Date "1982.04.??"]
[White "Sibilio, Mario"]
[Black "Mariotti, Sergio"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C00"]
[WhiteElo "2305"]
[BlackElo "2455"]
[EventCountry "ITA"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e5 c5 4. b4 cxb4 5. d4 Nh6 6. a3 bxa3 7. c3 Nf5 8. Nxa3
Nc6 9. Nb5 a6 10. g4 Bd7 11. Bg5 Be7 12. gxf5 axb5 13. fxe6 fxe6 14. Rxa8 Qxa8
15. Rg1 Qa3 16. Bxb5 Bxg5 17. Rxg5 Qxc3+ 18. Kf1 O-O 19. Bxc6 Bxc6 20. Kg2 Ba4
21. Qe2 Bc2 22. Ne1 Be4+ 23. f3 Rxf3 24. Nxf3 Bxf3+ 25. Qxf3 Qd2+ 26. Kh3 Qxg5
27. Qf8+ Kxf8

Rincewind
12-02-2014, 12:51 PM
Yes I found one that had been played by some juniors in a game somewhere (clearly as pre-arranged showing off) that someone attributed as the Loyd stalemate but it actually has a different move order to the original, so the person attributing it as such was wrong. And more fool me for believing them without checking it.

IIRC there was some brief controversy over this at the time. It was played in the 1995 Swedish Juniors between Upmark and Johansson.

Rincewind
12-02-2014, 01:40 PM
All pieces off the board (except kings of course) in 17 moves. Again by Sam Loyd.

1.c4 d5 2.cxd5 Qxd5 3.Qc2 Qxg2 4.Qxc7 Qxg1 5.Qxb7 Qxh2 6.Qxb8 Qe5 7.Qxc8+ Rxc8 8.Rxh7 Qxb2 9.Rxh8 Qxa2 10.Rxg8 Qxd2+ 11.Kxd2 Rxc1 12.Rxg7 Rxb1 13.Rxf7 Rxf1 14.Rxf8+ Kxf8 15.Rxa7 Rxf2 16.Rxe7 Rxe2+ 17.Kxe2 Kxe7