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Rincewind
29-09-2004, 07:03 PM
I'll tell you why some people quit and some people don't. It is up to the coach to build that sort of "never give up" character in their student, and Brian did that very well when he was coaching me, this shows when I win after losing my Queen. My opponent was rated 1700, and I blundered my queen for a pawn. That sort of "never give up" character is built by a coach, not gender, not race, not anything else.

See my mongrel factor elsewhere on the forums.

In short there are two schools of thought. Those that think competitive sports and past times build character, and those that think they reveal it.

skip to my lou
29-09-2004, 07:09 PM
Build or reveal, it's not going to happen by just sitting there.

skip to my lou
08-10-2004, 01:49 PM
antichrist, where are you?

antichrist
08-10-2004, 02:26 PM
antichrist, where are you?

Looking back over some of the comments:
1
After losing queen was taught to fight on, I never needed such encouragement, I also see some students also do not need. Some do of course.
2
I hope you don't like losing. I hate losing, and that's my reason not to give up.

I don't take losses too badly, part of learning process. But have had many more wins than losses. My determination in arguing is also in chess, in that I can get beaten for years by same champion and still put my head up and enjoy it getting knocked off -- a privilege -- until I win, in one case took 17 years, I then left chess for 5 years (some would say should be forever).

skip to my lou
08-10-2004, 02:30 PM
Maybe because they already have that quality from somewhere else.

Alan Shore
30-10-2004, 11:29 PM
Looking back over some of the comments:
1
After losing queen was taught to fight on, I never needed such encouragement, I also see some students also do not need. Some do of course.

Yes indeed, I have won brilliantly inthe past after losing/saccing a queen




2
I hope you don't like losing. I hate losing, and that's my reason not to give up.

I don't mind losing if I have played well - that is the main reason.


I don't take losses too badly, part of learning process. But have had many more wins than losses. My determination in arguing is also in chess, in that I can get beaten for years by same champion and still put my head up and enjoy it getting knocked off -- a privilege -- until I win, in one case took 17 years, I then left chess for 5 years (some would say should be forever

Not bad.. always have fun playing.

Kevin Bonham
30-10-2004, 11:47 PM
Yes indeed, I have won brilliantly inthe past after losing/saccing a queen

I was a rook up against Reg Harvey in the 1997 Tas Open and waiting for him to resign as he had no compensation whatsoever when I hung my queen for nothing to a backwards knight capture for no reason at all, the single worst blunder I have ever made in a rated game. I considered resigning and then decided that since he had not done so, neither would I. I fought back desperately rook for queen down to eventually recover a piece and then outplayed him in the ending with rook and knight for queen.

Alan Shore
31-10-2004, 12:19 AM
I was a rook up against Reg Harvey in the 1997 Tas Open and waiting for him to resign as he had no compensation whatsoever when I hung my queen for nothing to a backwards knight capture for no reason at all, the single worst blunder I have ever made in a rated game. I considered resigning and then decided that since he had not done so, neither would I. I fought back desperately rook for queen down to eventually recover a piece and then outplayed him in the ending with rook and knight for queen.

:clap:

Chess is indeed about not giving up... I wish I remember that game where I was a queen down and my attack was good enough to force mate but ah well..

Wheher it be in chess or in life, never give up, always try your best to win! :)

Rincewind
31-10-2004, 01:13 AM
Here is a short game played in a 7x1 general correspondence tourny many, many years ago. I made a 1 move blunder losing a piece without compensation and so could ether resign or launch an offensive. My opponent made a couple of mistakes and the win was suprisingly quick and effortless. Remember that this was 1100-1200 strength correspondence.

White : Opponent ~1100
Black : Me ~1200
Date : c.1993


1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.c5 b6 5.cxb6 axb6 6.Nc3 Bb4 7.Bd2 Ba6
8.Qa4+ Nbd7 9.Qxb4 c5 10.dxc5 bxc5 11.Qh4 O-O 12.O-O-O Qb6
13.Na4 Qb7 14.g3 Rfb8 15.Bf4 Rc8 16.b3 c4 17.Kb2 cxb3 18.axb3 Bc4
19.Kc3 Bxb3+ 20.Kd2 Qb4+ 0-1

Alan Shore
31-10-2004, 01:26 AM
A comeback from myself: DrLasker (1673) Cranith (1808)


1. e4 c5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. d4 cxd4
4. Nxd4 g6
5. Be3 Bg7
6. f3 Qb6
7. c3 Qxb2
8. Nxc6 bxc6
9. Nd2 Bxc3
10. Rb1 Qxa2
11. Bc4 Bxd2+
12. Qxd2 Qxc4
13. Kf2 Nf6
14. Rhc1 Qe6
15. Bh6 Ba6
16. Qa5 Bb5
17. Qc7 a6
18. Ra1 Nxe4+
19. fxe4 Qxe4
20. Qb7 Rd8
21. Re1 Qd4+
22. Be3 Qf6+
23. Kg3 O-O
24. Ra3 g5
25. h3 Qe5+
26. Kf2 h6
27. Bd2 Qb2
28. Rae3 Qxd2+
29. Kg3 Qd6+
30. Kf2 f5
31. Kg1 f4
32. Re4 Qd2
33. R4e2 Qd4+
34. Rf2 Qxf2+
35. Kxf2 e5
36. Kg1 Rfe8
37. Qc7 e4
38. Qd6 a5
39. Qg6+ Kf8
40. Qxh6+ Ke7
41. Qxg5+ Kf7
42. Qxf4+ 1-0

JGB
31-10-2004, 01:52 AM
Myself a queen down, would give up almost without second thoughts.

I would want a lot of compensation otherwise, in a game of Blitz, or under condititions that Kevin brought up against a player who had not chosen to resign a lost really position; not to give up a queen down.

Around here playing on with such a material deficit is a real insult to you opponent and waste of his time hoping he will blunder your game back.

Of course playing for one last swindle is possible but never forget...

...a good player knows when to give up. ;)

Rincewind
31-10-2004, 01:59 AM
Myself a queen down, would give up almost without second thoughts.

I would want a lot of compensation otherwise, in a game of Blitz, or under condititions that Kevin brought up against a player who had not chosen to resign a lost really position; not to give up a queen down.

Around here playing on with such a material deficit is a real insult to you opponent and waste of his time hoping he will blunder your game back.

Of course playing for one last swindle is possible but never forget...

...a good player knows when to give up. ;)

I think Bobby Fischer is credited with the quote, "Resigns is the only move which is guaranteed to worsen your position". ;)

In essense I agree with you and regularly resign when behind in material. Although it needs to be assessed on a case by case basis. Taking into account the difficulty of the win, the skill of the opponent and the time on the clock.

JGB
31-10-2004, 02:04 AM
I think Bobby Fischer is credited with the quote, "Resigns is the only move which is guaranteed to worsen your position". ;)


Bobby said a lot of other garbage as well.

...A brilliant chess player but nothing more.

Rincewind
31-10-2004, 02:09 AM
Bobby said a lot of other garbage as well.

...A brilliant chess player but nothing more.

However, on this occasion, his statement was analytically true.

JGB
31-10-2004, 02:11 AM
However, on this occasion, his statement was analytically true.

Could not be more true :)

Rincewind
31-10-2004, 02:21 AM
Could not be more true :)

Well it could be argued that all truth is dependent on a context and while relative truths might be permissible is some contexts, what I mean by analytical truth is an absolute term and one is not more or less true than any other.

Relative truths from contexts which allow such things are interesting but unfortunately not comparable across contexts. ;)

JGB
31-10-2004, 02:26 AM
Well it could be argued that all truth is dependent on a context and while relative truths might be permissible is some contexts, what I mean by analytical truth is an absolute term and one is not more or less true than any other.

Relative truths from contexts which allow such things are interesting but unfortunately not comparable across contexts. ;)

I like you too ;)

Spiny Norman
31-10-2004, 06:01 PM
Myself a queen down, would give up almost without second thoughts.
<snip>
Around here playing on with such a material deficit is a real insult to you opponent and waste of his time hoping he will blunder your game back.


Queen down ... possibly ... but isn't it all a matter of degrees depending on the quality of the opposition (i.e. how you rate them) and your level of confidence in your ability to recover from adversity?

If I were playing a GM it would be quite different to playing a similarly-rated compatriot at my local club.

Here's a game where my opponent must've shone a blinding light in my eyes on move 11 when I put a bishop en-prise for no good reason. I considered resigning, but played on and won the game just eight moves later.

Event: Ringwood Club Championship
Site: Ringwood Chess Club
Date: 1988
White: Stephen Frost (1334)
Black: Anon (rated around 1800 today)
Result: 1-0
ECO: C70

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 b5 5.Bb3 Na5 6.0-0 Nxb3 7.axb3 d6 8.d4 Bg4 9.dxe5 Bxf3 10.Qxf3 dxe5 11.Bg5 {??} Qxg5 12.Rd1 Qf6 13.Qe2 Be7 14.Nc3 c6 15.Rd3 Qe6 16.Qe3 Qg6 17.Qb6 Bd8 18.Qb7 Nf6 19.Qxa8 1-0

antichrist
31-10-2004, 06:16 PM
With one of my best students almost the worse thing you could do is take a piece for free. He could fight the whole game without going backwards and wait for the tinist mistake and then pounce and never look back, bring home the bacon.

What I despise is parents who never play their children again after their child beats them. How weak are they. They should be happy that their child is picking up and try to improve with them. My students used to beg me to beat them. I would just keep putting up more challenges to them.

By the way I never coached those sub-continent types who gave up after losing. They came to my classes with reputations so I put them up against my better students to test them out. The ones I coached actually put up the best performances of all my students.