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jenni
30-10-2004, 11:54 AM
The first of the Australians have started leaving Australia to travel to Crete to participate in the World Youth.

I am sure we would all like to wish them a safe journey and the best of luck in the tournaments. A lot of attention will obviously centre on Raymond Song who will be playing in the Open Under 10 again and trying to better his 5th place from last year. However we have many other strong players going and everyone will be trying for their personal bests.

A 50% score is a fantastic effort and for many of our kids, even playing thier hearts out, a more realistic achievement is around 4, 4.5 points, particularly in the older divisions.

Many of the strong countries send 5 or 6 players in each division and so it is much harder to achieve a 50% score than it was 5 or 6 years ago.

I have now handed over management of the team to Robert and Sonia Song, who will look after the team in Crete. A special thank-you to Mona Lee who seems to have inherited the role of uniform officer for the team.

The full team is

Open Under 18

Denis Bourmistrov
Janson Hu

Girls Under 18

Shannon Oliver

Open Under 16

Ronald Yu
Vincent Suttor

Girls Under 16

Heather Huddleston

Open Under 14

Moulthun Ly
Sherab Guo-Yuthok

Girls Under 14

Casey Hickman

Open Under 12

Max Illingworth

Girls under 12

Angela Song

Open Under 10

Raymond Song

Girls Under 10

Emma Guo
Lara Ong

Coaches

GM Ian Rogers
Manuel Weeks
IM Laszlo Hazai
IM Gary Lane
Brett Tindall

Cathy Rogers will be working as an Arbiter and is always an asset to the team and of course official photographer.

Baggage Handlers

Robert and Sonia Song
Yolande Suttor
Tina Huddleston
Eakheng Ly
Lyndy Hickman
Dianne Illingworth
SweeSee Lee

http://www.greekchess.com/wycc2004/wycc04.html

Recherché
30-10-2004, 10:14 PM
I shall watch the tournament with interest, especially the Box Hill contingent, against whom I have played some fun games. You know, it doesn't seem that long since the last World Youth.

And it's good to see the baggage handlers getting proper recognition. ;)

jenni
02-11-2004, 07:28 AM
hi Jenni, a quick note to say we've arrived Crete safe and sound. So far we have the Songs, Hu, Yu, Lys, and Laszlo, with more to come tomorrow.

This time we are placed at Terra Maris (near the tournament hall) and so far all is quiet, and the rooms are all very nice and right next to a pool.

I am told our neighbours are going to be the USA & UK teams, so Robert said the organisors have put the 'coalition of the willing' teams at the terra maris.

Happy to report the food is as good as 2 years ago and staff just as friendly. The only downside is internet access is not all that flash and we have to use the hotel connection at 5 Euros per hour. Other than that it is great to be back here.

Best regards,
Sonia

Kerry Stead
03-11-2004, 09:20 AM
I am told our neighbours are going to be the USA & UK teams, so Robert said the organisors have put the 'coalition of the willing' teams at the terra maris.

Is it really safe to have Denis near the UK teams? ;)

All the best for the team!

jenni
03-11-2004, 11:11 AM
Is it really safe to have Denis near the UK teams? ;)

All the best for the team!

Actually it is the Welsh team that is really bad!

Chess Dad
06-11-2004, 07:40 AM
Here is a link to the easiest way to find the teams results after round 2

http://schach.wienerzeitung.at/asp/turniere.htm?tnr=1630&art=25&fedb=AUS&lan=1



SNo Name FED Rtg 1 2 Pts. Rk.
9 Song Raymond AUS 2002 1 0 1.0 40 Boys U10
68 Illingworth Max AUS 0 0 0 0.0 104 Boys U12
66 Ly Moulthun AUS 2056 0 1 1.0 73 Boys U14
100 Guo-Yuthok Sherab AUS 0 0 0 0.0 114 Boys U14
55 Yu Ronald AUS 2202 ½ 1 1.5 34 Boys U16
88 Suttor Vincent AUS 2013 0 0 0.0 101 Boys U16
58 Bourmistrov Denis AUS 2182 0 1 1.0 54 Boys U18
71 Hu Jason AUS 2062 1 0 1.0 43 Boys U18
32 Guo Emma AUS 0 1 0 1.0 29 Girls U10
56 Ong Lara AUS 0 0 1 1.0 55 Girls U10
19 Song Angela AUS 1838 1 ½ 1.5 18 Girls U12
68 Hickman Casey AUS 0 0 0 0.0 84 Girls U14
52 Huddleston Heather AUS 1957 ½ ½ 1.0 42 Girls U16
50 Oliver Shannon AUS 1980 0 0 0.0 59 Girls U18



I am sorry I don't know how to get this table to format correctly.

Rincewind
06-11-2004, 10:28 AM
I am sorry I don't know how to get this table to format correctly.

I find an editor with a non-proportional font the easiest way to get thnigs looking right. Something like Notepad works ok for small jobs like this.

jenni
06-11-2004, 04:51 PM
Haven't heard much from Crete (and the bit I have is probably not repeatable and not to do with the chess :) ). There is a doubled up round today, so they are probably flat out preparing.

According to Sonia, Shannon had a good position in the first round for most of the game, but it didn't end up in a win.

Jason Hu had a really good win in the first round - he was a bit worried about his performace in the NSW Championships, but so far so good overseas.

Its early days still for all the kids - a long way to go and hopefully the early loss for Ray won't matter by the end.

frogmogdog
06-11-2004, 05:03 PM
thanks chess dad, that's an informative link, saves lots of time.

jenni
06-11-2004, 11:19 PM
Results for round 3 are up. Everyone is now off zero, except Max and he plays a Kenyan next, so I think has to win. The Kenyans are terribly enthusiastic and have potential, but don't have a very good track record at the World Youth.

Jason won again, so is having a fantastic time! Heather and Angela are currently undefeated.

scores

Ray 2
Angela 2
Heather 2
Jason 2
Ronald 1.5
Emma 1
Lara 1
Shannon 1
Moulthun 1
Denis 1
Casey .5
Sherab .5
Vincent .5
Max 0

Chess Dad
07-11-2004, 07:39 AM
Here are the results after round 4



SNo Name FED Rtg 1 2 3 4 Pts. Rk.
9 Song Raymond AUS 2002 1 0 1 1 3.0 23 Boys U10
68 Illingworth Max AUS 0 0 0 0 1 1.0 110 Boys U12
66 Ly Moulthun AUS 2056 0 1 0 1 2.0 76 Boys U14
100 Guo-Yuthok Sherab AUS 0 0 0 ½ 0 0.5 119 Boys U14
55 Yu Ronald AUS 2202 ½ 1 0 1 2.5 39 Boys U16
88 Suttor Vincent AUS 2013 0 0 ½ 1 1.5 90 Boys U16
58 Bourmistrov Denis AUS 2182 0 1 0 1 2.0 52 Boys U18
71 Hu Jason AUS 2062 1 0 1 ½ 2.5 27 Boys U18
32 Guo Emma AUS 0 1 0 0 0 1.0 61 Girls U10
56 Ong Lara AUS 0 0 1 0 1 2.0 49 Girls U10
19 Song Angela AUS 1838 1 ½ ½ 0 2.0 33 Girls U12
68 Hickman Casey AUS 0 0 0 ½ 1 1.5 73 Girls U14
52 Huddleston Heather AUS 1957 ½ ½ 1 0 2.0 38 Girls U16
50 Oliver Shannon AUS 1980 0 0 1 0 1.0 58 Girls U18



For more detail see
http://schach.wienerzeitung.at/asp/turniere.htm?tnr=1630&art=25&fedb=AUS&bild=30&lan=1


(Thanks Barry looks like I have mastered this table formatting :) )

WhiteElephant
07-11-2004, 08:02 AM
It is great to see some of the Aus junior players performing well above their ratings against tough opposition!

I am not familiar with all of our players - could someone post which state each of our representatives is from? Thanks.

jenni
07-11-2004, 09:38 AM
Qld

Moulthun Ly

Vic

Denis Bourmistrov
Casey Hickman

ACT

Emma Guo
Lara Ong
Sherab Guo-Yuthok
Shannon Oliver

rest are NSW

jenni
07-11-2004, 09:50 AM
According to Sonia Song, Max won his game in about 20 minutes, Angela lost from a completely winnng game and Jason accepted a draw offer in a good position because his opponnent was a FM. He plays another one tonight, so hopefully won't do the same!

Unfortunately Lara Ong and Emma Guo had to play each other in round 4. You would think having come half way across the world to play this wouldn't happen! Emma and Lara are very good friends and Lara gave Emma a draw when she was totally winning in Perth earlier this year. Shannon (who is Lara's coach) has done a fair bit of work with her about being friends away from the board, but being prepared to take the point across the board and it looks like this has been successful, because Lara did win this time.

Candy-Cane
08-11-2004, 04:51 PM
Where is the next world youth may i ask? and when? i saw on the fide website that it was in france in july. However, that must be the u/20s one but it does say YOUTH of it.

Can anyone tell me when the next WYCC is please?

Thanks,
Vaness Reid.

Bill Gletsos
08-11-2004, 05:33 PM
Where is the next world youth may i ask? and when? i saw on the fide website that it was in france in july. However, that must be the u/20s one but it does say YOUTH of it.

Can anyone tell me when the next WYCC is please?

Thanks,
Vaness Reid.
As far as I know that one in France is it.

The next World Junior(u/20) starts in India a few days after the current World Youth in Crete finishes.

There is currently no date for the 2005 World Junior.

jenni
08-11-2004, 06:28 PM
Where is the next world youth may i ask? and when? i saw on the fide website that it was in france in july. However, that must be the u/20s one but it does say YOUTH of it.

Can anyone tell me when the next WYCC is please?

Thanks,
Vaness Reid.

It is always a bit of a lottery when exact dates are announced. This year they were not officially announced until July. I had managed to get earlier confirmation of the dates by posting a please help me msg on a bulletin board in Greece, but it was still a bit hairy booking flights etc, until they were officially announced. Some years you might know as early as February, but to be quite honest that is unusual. However they have actually put dates on the FIDE website, so that is encouraging and hopefully they are the correct dates.

At the FIDE congress in Helkidiki last year the World Youth was allocated as follows

2005 France
2006 India
2007 Turkey
2008 Vietnam

It will be quite exciting if it does change every year. That is the way it used to be, but was in Spain for 4 years and Greece for 3 years.

Chess Dad
09-11-2004, 06:43 AM
Results after round 6



SNo Name FED Rtg 1 2 3 4 5 6 Pts. Rk.
9 Song Raymond AUS 2002 1 0 1 1 ½ 1 4.5 15 Boys U10
68 Illingworth Max AUS 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 2.0 101 Boys U12
66 Ly Moulthun AUS 2056 0 1 0 1 ½ ½ 3.0 65 Boys U14
100 Guo-Yuthok Sherab AUS 0 0 0 ½ 0 0 1 1.5 118 Boys U14
55 Yu Ronald AUS 2202 ½ 1 0 1 ½ 1 4.0 27 Boys U16
88 Suttor Vincent AUS 2013 0 0 ½ 1 0 1 2.5 86 Boys U16
58 Bourmistrov Denis AUS 2182 0 1 0 1 ½ ½ 3.0 47 Boys U18
71 Hu Jason AUS 2062 1 0 1 ½ 0 0 2.5 52 Boys U18
32 Guo Emma AUS 0 1 0 0 0 ½ 0 1.5 74 Girls U10
56 Ong Lara AUS 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 3.0 43 Girls U10
19 Song Angela AUS 1838 1 ½ ½ 0 1 1 4.0 18 Girls U12
68 Hickman Casey AUS 0 0 0 ½ 1 0 1 2.5 70 Girls U14
52 Huddleston Heather AUS 1957 ½ ½ 1 0 1 ½ 3.5 29 Girls U16
50 Oliver Shannon AUS 1980 0 0 1 0 ½ 0 1.5 64 Girls U18


http://schach.wienerzeitung.at/asp/turniere.htm?tnr=1630&art=25&fedb=AUS&bild=30&lan=1

pax
10-11-2004, 10:05 AM
Couldn't find a thread on this, so here is one!

There is an excellent website at:
http://www.greekchess.com/wycc2004/

Raymond Song recovered from a loss in rd2 to be 4.5/6 in the boys u/10. Ronald Yu is also doing well in the boys u/16 with 4/6, and Angela Song likewise 4/6 in the u/12.

pax
10-11-2004, 10:07 AM
Note that even the World Youth has double round days (3-4 and 7-8), so it looks like they're here to stay, at least when games are played at FIDE's semi-rapid time controls.

Garvinator
10-11-2004, 10:11 AM
Is this thread any use for you in the tournaments news section: http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=1482

pax
10-11-2004, 10:17 AM
Bloody hell... That's where I went looking for the Olympiad thread, and had it pointed out that the Tournament News thread is in the Australian Chess forum (and the Olympiad isn't really Australian Chess).

This board would be a lot easier to navigate if there were fewer forums. Most forums only ever have a couple of active threads anyway. However, if there's going to be so many forums, there might as well be one for international chess news... It doesn't fit at the moment.

jenni
10-11-2004, 12:27 PM
I have copied these posts to the one already in existence in the Tournament news forum.

jenni
10-11-2004, 12:41 PM
I am told the kids ahd a good rest day yesterday. Some of the older kids hit the disco the previous evening and spent the day recovering. Others were swimming and playing ping pong. They are getting a fair bit of rain, but it is not cold. Most of the older boys went into the City with Manuel.

Some info from Sonia Song

"The Chinese kids have dominated the Under 10 boys division. Yu Yang-yi, whom Raymond lost to last year is still on full score. Parker Zhao from USA
is doing really well. Ian said that if Parker does well, we can always claim he is one of us. Parker’s father is accompanying him this time. The father said that Parker has settled down in USA well and is unlikely coming back to Australia. It will be good for Parker to stay in America if he continues playing chess as Parker gets US company’s sponsorship, like some other kids in the US team. There is one American boy in Under 12 division who gets $50,000 USD a year from his sponsor – really not bad.

Angela had a good win yesterday thanks to the superb opening preparation. The Indonesian girl just played at the Olympiad for her country and scored 5/12. She missed out the first two rounds because of the visa problem and won the next three games in a row.

Shannon has been really tired because she has been playing strong players one after another. The standard of the World Youth just gets higher each year. It is very tough for Australian kids especially in the older division.

Kids have seen Ivanchuk around. Jason even went up and introduced himself to Ivanchuk, as did Max. Max’s mum even had a conversation with Ivanchuk. It is great for kids to see their heros here. "


Ronald Yu plays David Larino tomorrow. Gareth played David and beat him in 1998 in the World Under 10's, so I think we can expect a good result from Ronald, although obviously David is now a very strong player.

jenni
10-11-2004, 03:37 PM
Sonia's comments about the Indonesian player Angela played in round 6, led me to check on Shannon's Indonesian player for round 7. It appears she played board 1 for the Women's Olympiad team. Her results were not very strong but still a scary pairing when you are on 1.5 out of 6.

jenni
10-11-2004, 08:53 PM
Results for round 7 are being updated as they happen (or so it appears).

Shannon has already won and Denis drawn. No other Aussies finished as yet.

jenni
10-11-2004, 10:04 PM
Ray has just won, moving him to 5.5 out of 7. He was on board 5 - he will get a tough one for the second round today.

Moulthun, Vincent, Emma won

Max, Angela drew,

Sherab, Ronald, Jason, Lara, Casey, Heather lost.

Next round starts about 1:30am, but I don't think I'll wait up for those results :)

Ian_Rogers
10-11-2004, 10:30 PM
Ronald and Denis drew in round 7.
(Incidentally, Sherab's loss was on time, by forgetting about his clock when ahead on time and in a good position.)

Ian

jenni
10-11-2004, 11:49 PM
OK they must have had that up wrong - I doubled checked that one. Problem with getting results before the round has finished and they have been checked.

jenni
10-11-2004, 11:52 PM
They still have that up as a loss for Ronald, but given Ian has just analysed the game, he is a more trustworthy source.....

jenni
11-11-2004, 12:10 AM
Overview for team AUS
SNo Name FED Rtg 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Pts. Rk.
9 Song Raymond AUS 2002 1 0 1 1 ½ 1 1 5.5 10 Boys U10
68 Illingworth Max AUS 0 0 0 1 1 0 ½ 2.5 100 Boys U12
66 Ly Moulthun AUS 2056 0 1 0 1 ½ ½ 1 4.0 56 Boys U14
100 Guo-Yuthok Sherab AUS 0 0 ½ 0 0 1 0 1.5 121 Boys U14
55 Yu Ronald AUS 2202 ½ 1 0 1 ½ 1 ½ 4.5 26 Boys U16
88 Suttor Vincent AUS 2013 0 0 ½ 1 0 1 1 3.5 70 Boys U16
58 Bourmistrov Denis AUS 2182 0 1 0 1 ½ ½ ½ 3.5 44 Boys U18
71 Hu Jason AUS 2062 1 0 1 ½ 0 0 0 2.5 67 Boys U18
32 Guo Emma AUS 1 0 0 0 ½ 0 1 2.5 66 Girls U10
56 Ong Lara AUS 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 3.0 49 Girls U10
19 Song Angela AUS 1838 1 ½ ½ 0 1 1 ½ 4.5 20 Girls U12
68 Hickman Casey AUS 0 0 ½ 1 0 1 0 2.5 78 Girls U14
52 Huddleston HeatherAUS 1957 ½ ½ 1 0 1 ½ 0 3.5 41 Girls U16
50 Oliver Shannon AUS 1980 0 0 1 0 ½ 0 1 2.5 57 Girls U18

Chess Dad
11-11-2004, 07:32 AM
Results after round 8




Name FED Rtg 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Pts. Rk.
Song Raymond AUS 2002 1 0 1 1 ½ 1 1 1 6.5 5 Boys U10
Illingworth Max AUS 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 ½ 0 2.5 107 Boys U12
Ly Moulthun AUS 2056 0 1 0 1 ½ ½ 1 ½ 4.5 50 Boys U14
Guo-Yuthok Sherab AUS 0 0 0 ½ 0 0 1 0 1 2.5 117 Boys U14
Yu Ronald AUS 2202 ½ 1 0 1 ½ 1 ½ 0 4.5 36 Boys U16
Suttor Vincent AUS 2013 0 0 ½ 1 0 1 1 1 4.5 52 Boys U16
Bourmistrov Denis AUS 2182 0 1 0 1 ½ ½ ½ 0 3.5 52 Boys U18
Hu Jason AUS 2062 1 0 1 ½ 0 0 0 0 2.5 73 Boys U18
Guo Emma AUS 0 1 0 0 0 ½ 0 1 1 3.5 56 Girls U10
Ong Lara AUS 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 4.0 46 Girls U10
Song Angela AUS 1838 1 ½ ½ 0 1 1 ½ 1 5.5 14 Girls U12
Hickman Casey AUS 0 0 0 ½ 1 0 1 0 ½ 3.0 75 Girls U14
Huddleston Heather AUS 1957 ½ ½ 1 0 1 ½ 0 ½ 4.0 40 Girls U16
Oliver Shannon AUS 1980 0 0 1 0 ½ 0 1 1 3.5 48 Girls U18


http://schach.wienerzeitung.at/asp/turniere.htm?tnr=1630&art=25&fedb=AUS&bild=30&lan=1

The draw for round 9 sees Raymond on board 1 against Yu Yangyi of China.

Good Luck Ray

jenni
11-11-2004, 07:55 AM
Fantastic recovery by Ray, after a disappointing loss early on . Angela is also quietly sitting there chalking up point after point. She has only had one loss so far and that was from a winning position. Moulthun, Ronald and Vincent are all doing well and Heather has only had 2 losses out of 8 games.

pax
11-11-2004, 09:44 AM
I notice that Ray beat Tigran Petrosyan in round 8. Now that is some scalp :uhoh:

pax
11-11-2004, 09:51 AM
Results after round 8

The draw for round 9 sees Raymond on board 1 against Yu Yangyi of China.

Good Luck Ray

It's a handy time to have a white (even though his earlier loss was with white).

pax
11-11-2004, 09:56 AM
I notice Nan Zhao in the u/12 division has an RP of around 2550. That's a pretty incredible feat for an unrated 11 year old in a tournament full of (presumably) massively underrated players...

pax
11-11-2004, 10:01 AM
Speaking of Rp's, only two out of Australias nine rated players currently have Rp lower than their rating (and those two not by much) which is pretty good going in any junior event..

jenni
11-11-2004, 11:08 AM
I think the team is doing very well this year. I usually keep a record of daily team % and have done for years. Last year Chessdad indulged in some 1 upmanship, by inputting the stuff into a hand held computer and spitting out % instantaneously. However I felt it didn't have the same character as a piece of paper that was passed from hand to hand, steadily getting more creased and dirty as kids and parents examined it during dinner.

Looking at the %

Round 1 36%
Round 2 36%
Round 3 43%
Round 4 61%
Round 5 50%
Round 6 54%
Round 7 50%
Round 8 61%

We are hovering steadily at 50% or above (apart from the first few rounds where Australia always does realtively badly). This is much better than in previous years where we tended to flip flop a bit - a good round was usually followed by a 30% the next round.

Given the trend you would think we are heading for more a 50% type round tonight.

Chess Dad
11-11-2004, 12:16 PM
Last year Chessdad indulged in some 1 upmanship, by inputting the stuff into a hand held computer and spitting out % instantaneously.

Well I have now added pocket Fritz to my handheld, so next time during analysis I might even sound like I know something about chess (as long as I keep it hidden ;) )

jenni
11-11-2004, 12:59 PM
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 exd4 4 Nxd4 Bc5 5 Be3 Qf6 6 c3
Nge7 7 Bc4 Ne5 8 Be2 d5!? 9 Nbd2 Qg6 10 Rg1 (10 0-0
walks into ...Bh3 but maybe 10 Nb5 is the book move)
10...dxe4 1 Nb5 Bd6 12 Nxe4! Qxe4 13 Qxd6 cxd6 14 Nd6+
Kd7 15 Nxe4 Nd5 16 0-0-0+ Ke6 17 Bg5 (threat Nc5 mate)
17...f6 18 Bf4 b6 19 g4 Ne7 20 Rd6+ Kf7 21 Bxe5 fxe5
22 Ng5+ Ke8 (22...Kf8 23 Rd8) 23 Bb5+ Nc6 24 Bxc6+ Ke7
25 Bxa8 Kxd6 26 Nf7+

This is Shannon's game against the Indonesian girl - maybe someone might feel enthusiastic enough to create one of those play it through things?

Garvinator
11-11-2004, 01:05 PM
I attempted to put it in pgn tags and got a slow running message. Can someone help to avoid that?

jenni
11-11-2004, 03:00 PM
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Bc5 5. Be3 Qf6 6. c3 Nge7 7. Bc4 Ne5 8. Be2 d5 9. Nbd2 Qg6 10. Rg1 dxe4 11. Nb5 Bd6 12. Nxe4 Qxe4 13. Qxd6 cxd6 14. Nxd6+ Kd7 15. Nxe4 Nd5 16. 0-0-0+ Ke6 17. Bg5 f6 18. Bf4 b6 19. g4 Ne7 20. Rd6+ Kf7 21. Bxe5 fxe5 22. Ng5+ Ke8 23. Bb5+ Nc6 24. Bxc6+ Ke7 25. Bxa8 Kxd6 26. Nf7+

jenni
11-11-2004, 03:31 PM
I attempted to put it in pgn tags and got a slow running message. Can someone help to avoid that?

Thanks for trying Garvin. :) I decided to not be a cripple and have a go myself, but I took all the comments out, so that it was nice and simple for my first attempt.

Garvinator
11-11-2004, 03:48 PM
Thanks for trying Garvin. :) I decided to not be a cripple and have a go myself, but I took all the comments out, so that it was nice and simple for my first attempt.
as you saw, it isnt that difficult if you are just copying moves from a site and adding the pgn tags. Not as easy when you have to add the moves yourself ;)

Javier Gil
11-11-2004, 08:53 PM
I wonder if the team's low percentage in the first rounds has anything to do with jetlag, given the time difference between Greece and Australia. :hmm:

This is Raymond's nice win against Petrosyan from round 8:


[Event "WYCC 2004 - B10"]
[Site "Creta Maris Conference Hotel"]
[Date "2004.11.10"]
[Round "8.4"]
[White "Song, Raymond"]
[Black "Petrosyan, Tigran S"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B78"]
[WhiteElo "2002"]
[EventDate "2004.11.04"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 a6
15. h4 h5 16. gxh5 Nxh5 17. Rdg1 b5 18. Nce2 a5 19. Ng3 Rc5 20. Nde2 Nxg3 21.
Nxg3 Rc6 22. Bh6 Rc5 23. h5 g5 24. Bxg5 Kh7 25. Be3 Rc4 26. h6 Bh8 27. Nh5 f5
28. Rg7+ Bxg7 29. hxg7 Rf7 30. g8=Q+ Kxg8 31. Qg2+ Kf8 32. Bh6+ 1-0

jenni
11-11-2004, 09:49 PM
I wonder if the team's low percentage in the first rounds has anything to do with jetlag, given the time difference between Greece and Australia. :hmm:



Unfortunately not. Apart from a few of the stars, the Aussies struggle on the absolute top boards. We need to go down the draw a bit and fight it out in the middle. It takes a few rounds to find our natural level. Most of the Aussies feel they have done really well with a 50% score.

However I do think the team is doing a bit better each year, even though it is actually getting harder. Has anyone noticed how many Chinese are playing in the under 10 and under 12 categories? - all of them pretty good.

Unlike the Aussies who are still coming to grips with the concept of sending more than one kid in each cateogory (see selections hysteria last year), the Chinese appear to be sending large numbers of kids in the lower categories - presumably to grow many of them into really good players

Chess Dad
12-11-2004, 07:08 AM
Results after round 9



Name FED Rtg 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Pts. Rk.
Song Raymond AUS 2002 1 0 1 1 ½ 1 1 1 ½ 7.0 7 Boys U10
Illingworth Max AUS 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 ½ 0 1 3.5 96 Boys U12
Ly Moulthun AUS 2056 0 1 0 1 ½ ½ 1 ½ 1 5.5 35 Boys U14
Guo-Yuthok Sherab AUS 0 0 0 ½ 0 0 1 0 1 1 3.5 103 Boys U14
Yu Ronald AUS 2202 ½ 1 0 1 ½ 1 ½ 0 ½ 5.0 39 Boys U16
Suttor Vincent AUS 2013 0 0 ½ 1 0 1 1 1 ½ 5.0 51 Boys U16
Bourmistrov Denis AUS 2182 0 1 0 1 ½ ½ ½ 0 0 3.5 64 Boys U18
Hu Jason AUS 2062 1 0 1 ½ 0 0 0 0 1 3.5 65 Boys U18
Guo Emma AUS 0 1 0 0 0 ½ 0 1 1 0 3.5 64 Girls U10
Ong Lara AUS 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 4.0 51 Girls U10
Song Angela AUS 1838 1 ½ ½ 0 1 1 ½ 1 0 5.5 19 Girls U12
Hickman Casey AUS 0 0 0 ½ 1 0 1 0 ½ 1 4.0 68 Girls U14
Huddleston Heather AUS 1957 ½ ½ 1 0 1 ½ 0 ½ ½ 4.5 40 Girls U16
Oliver Shannon AUS 1980 0 0 1 0 ½ 0 1 1 ½ 4.0 48 Girls U18



http://schach.wienerzeitung.at/asp/turniere.htm?tnr=1630&art=25&fedb=AUS&bild=30&lan=1

Chess Dad
12-11-2004, 07:31 AM
Ray gets to play another Chinese player in round 10.

The odds of that occuring are pretty good at the moment as China has a player on every board from 1 to 5.

China have 4 players in the top 10 with USA 2

jenni
12-11-2004, 07:36 AM
Round 9 was 54%. Excellent for Ray to get a draw, particularly when he lost to this boy last year. Top 3 finish still possible, although his countback is going to hurt him in a tied position, because of the early loss. Shame that Denis and Jason are playing each other tonight. Other kids all doing well.

Chess Dad
12-11-2004, 07:41 AM
Moulthun also appears to be performing very well and is now on 5.5 and a rating performance of 2220 with only 2 losses. :)

Ian_Rogers
13-11-2004, 05:37 AM
Round 10 was a big day for the Aussies.

Wins for Ray, Max, Lara, Emma, Moulthun, Ronald, Vincent and Angela.

Draws to Heather, Sherab, Casey, Denis and Jason (the latter two playing each other).

Loss for Shannon.

Ray will play for first place tomorrow (although probably not for gold as his tie-break is not good enough).

Ian

Javier Gil
13-11-2004, 06:00 AM
Excellent result!

Go Raymond, go! :)

Chess Dad
13-11-2004, 06:47 AM
What a fantastic day! :owned:

There must have been smiles everywhere in the analysis area :D



Name FED Rtg 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Pts. Rk.
Song Raymond AUS 2002 1 0 1 1 ½ 1 1 1 ½ 1 8.0 4 Boys U10
Illingworth Max AUS 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 ½ 0 1 1 4.5 83 Boys U12
Ly Moulthun AUS 2056 0 1 0 1 ½ ½ 1 ½ 1 1 6.5 22 Boys U14
Guo-Yuthok Sherab AUS 0 0 0 ½ 0 0 1 0 1 1 ½ 4.0 105 Boys U14
Yu Ronald AUS 2202 ½ 1 0 1 ½ 1 ½ 0 ½ 1 6.0 30 Boys U16
Suttor Vincent AUS 2013 0 0 ½ 1 0 1 1 1 ½ 1 6.0 34 Boys U16
Bourmistrov Denis AUS 2182 0 1 0 1 ½ ½ ½ 0 0 ½ 4.0 63 Boys U18
Hu Jason AUS 2062 1 0 1 ½ 0 0 0 0 1 ½ 4.0 64 Boys U18
Guo Emma AUS 0 1 0 0 0 ½ 0 1 1 0 1 4.5 58 Girls U10
Ong Lara AUS 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 5.0 46 Girls U10
Song Angela AUS 1838 1 ½ ½ 0 1 1 ½ 1 0 1 6.5 15 Girls U12
Hickman Casey AUS 0 0 0 ½ 1 0 1 0 ½ 1 ½ 4.5 64 Girls U14
Huddleston Heather AUS 1957 ½ ½ 1 0 1 ½ 0 ½ ½ ½ 5.0 41 Girls U16
Oliver Shannon AUS 1980 0 0 1 0 ½ 0 1 1 ½ 0 4.0 54 Girls U18

http://schach.wienerzeitung.at/asp/turniere.htm?tnr=1630&art=25&fedb=AUS&bild=30&lan=1

jenni
13-11-2004, 08:33 AM
Round 10 was a big day for the Aussies.

Wins for Ray, Max, Lara, Emma, Moulthun, Ronald, Vincent and Angela.

Draws to Heather, Sherab, Casey, Denis and Jason (the latter two playing each other).

Loss for Shannon.

Ray will play for first place tomorrow (although probably not for gold as his tie-break is not good enough).

Ian

Shannon said she blundered horribly and it is the first game where she was very unhappy with how she played.

Been poring over the figures and yes Ray cannot win outright, as a win tonight will only put him in at best an =1st and his countback is worse. (However are we worried about that? =1st would be fantastic!)

Unfortunately if Yangyi Yu wins or draws and Yifan Hou wins, then Ray get pushed into 4th place on countback.

So an ideal scenario is a win for Ray, a loss by Yangyi and Yifan, to give Ray =1st and second on countback.

Yu Yangi will also be hoping for a win by Ray and a win for himself, to give him outright 1st. Wherever Ray ends up, it has still been an excellent performance by him. The other Aussies have all performed well.

Shannon I know will be trying very hard for a win as she wanted to get 5 points this year. I am not sure what Jasmine Lauer-Smith got in 1999? She was certainly on 4 out of 10, but not sure what happened in the last round. Anyone know? Marija Jovanovic got 4.5 in 2000, Shannon 4.5 in 2003 and Andjelija Zivanovic 4 in 2002. We really struggle to field girls in the under 18 category, as so many of the girls give up playing in year 11, so didn't have a rep in 1998 and I think 2001.

jenni
13-11-2004, 08:35 AM
% for the round 75% - this is definitely our best performing team in years! While a big % that like that in one round, normally is followed by a dip in the next round, on current performance, I would expect our final round to still be above the 50%.

At this point we already have 5 people on more than 50% and another 5 capable of getting to 50%. Our lowest score is 4 and those are almost all in the very tough under 18 categories.

Last round starts 6:30 tonight Aussie time. Hopefully they will update scores as the round progresses.

pax
13-11-2004, 11:20 AM
Is countback strictly bucholz? i.e is there a number of draws counback, or if two players have played each other is the one that won their individual game ranked higher??

pax
13-11-2004, 11:43 AM
Lets see, Ray is guaranteed top ten whatever happens (probably 7 or 8 if he loses). If he draws, top five is guaranteed (probably fourth). If he wins, only top four is guaranteed (with =1-2 possible but unlikely).

Perhaps in this case, discretion is the better part of valour (I'm sure Moussard would be quite happy with a draw)?

On the other hand, Ray got fifth last year, and should go all out for a win to improve last year's result?

Recherché
13-11-2004, 11:48 AM
^ I think chess players should always play for a win, especially when they're developing their chess. Even if Ray would get the same result regardless of whether he drew or won, I think he should still play for a win.

jenni
13-11-2004, 11:57 AM
Is countback strictly bucholz? i.e is there a number of draws counback, or if two players have played each other is the one that won their individual game ranked higher??
No it is progressive i.e the count of your score at each round. Under this system early losses hurt you. Ray lost in round 2 to a Georgian boy who is now on 7 points. It was thus a loss to one of the better players, but because it happened in round 2 it kills Ray's countback. Progressive works quite well, if everyone is rated, but doesn't make a lot of sense in the under 10 where only 16 kids out of 130 had a rating.

jenni
13-11-2004, 12:01 PM
^ I think chess players should always play for a win, especially when they're developing their chess. Even if Ray would get the same result regardless of whether he drew or won, I think he should still play for a win.

Ray's a pretty exciting player and does tend to go for the wins, so I am sure he will be trying. However (as I remember Ian Rogers telling Gareth many times, when he was trying to turn Gareth from someone who always went for wins, to a more balanced player), sometimes if it is a draw on the board, there is not much you can do about it.

Garvinator
13-11-2004, 12:12 PM
sometimes if it is a draw on the board, there is not much you can do about it.
this is very true. David Bronstein called it the logic of chess. If the position is drawn, then playing for a win by taking risks usually means you do avoid the draw :doh:

jenni
13-11-2004, 12:33 PM
this is very true. David Bronstein called it the logic of chess. If the position is drawn, then playing for a win by taking risks usually means you do avoid the draw :doh:
Yes - it took Gareth about 6 years to learn there was more to chess than winning or losing!

pax
13-11-2004, 12:44 PM
^ I think chess players should always play for a win, especially when they're developing their chess. Even if Ray would get the same result regardless of whether he drew or won, I think he should still play for a win.

Unfortunately, the tactical draw is part and parcel of world chess. I would probably like to see rule changes which reduce their prevalence, but while the rules are as they are, young players have to get used to the idea.

What if a draw were to guarantee outright first? Only if you didn't care about winning the tournament would you not consider a short draw.

pax
13-11-2004, 12:47 PM
I was trying to remember where I saw the name Parker Zhao before. I've now remembered he is an Australian Citizen (born on the Gold Coast I think). Graeme mentioned him in a bulletin a few years ago. So, go Parker!

Garvinator
13-11-2004, 12:51 PM
What if a draw were to guarantee outright first? Only if you didn't care about winning the tournament would you not consider a short draw.
of course you should take a short draw if you can manage it if it guarantees an outright tournament win. i dont think anyone would argue with that.

Recherché
13-11-2004, 01:02 PM
However (as I remember Ian Rogers telling Gareth many times, when he was trying to turn Gareth from someone who always went for wins, to a more balanced player), sometimes if it is a draw on the board, there is not much you can do about it.

That's not at all what I'm talking about. I mean that a chess player, when sitting down at the board, as either white or black, should seek to play the best moves they can find, and strive for a good position, and ultimately seek to win the game.

They shouldn't be playing for a draw from move one. Obviously there are many positions which are technically drawn - I have no objection to taking a draw under those circumstances.

However, taking a draw in an equal or better position which still has a lot of play left it in it, is in my opinion in poor spirit, and a counter-productive attitude to take when you're learning. Especially since it's not until GM level that technique is so good that roughly equal but complicated positions will often end in a natural draw.

Maybe a last round draw which guarantees outright first is an exception to this, though personally I'd still sit down hoping to win the game. After all, it's much easier to draw from a strong position.

jenni
13-11-2004, 01:07 PM
I was trying to remember where I saw the name Parker Zhao before. I've now remembered he is an Australian Citizen (born on the Gold Coast I think). Graeme mentioned him in a bulletin a few years ago. So, go Parker!

Last year when I talked to Parker's Mum there still seemed some possibility of him coming back to Australia, but it now appears we have lost him permanently to the USA.

jenni
13-11-2004, 01:16 PM
That's not at all what I'm talking about. I mean that a chess player, when sitting down at the board, as either white or black, should seek to play the best moves they can find, and strive for a good position, and ultimately seek to win the game.

.

Yes I think we all knew what you were talking about - just a bit of BB stirring going on. :)

I agree that there are far too many games played by kids where they go for a draw right from the beginning.

We always banned draws at an early age, with our kids, (not that we needed to do that with Gareth), as it seemed to us its just a game and half the fun is in trying to win, not just playing boring locked up positions.

I have to say though, that I think our ideas actually hurt our kids, as it took them many years to be prepared to settle for a draw and robbed them of many rating points. Even now both Shannon and Gareth have an anti draw mentality and will go for a win if they think there is even a tiny chance. It might make for fun games for them, but often costs them a better score in a competition.

I can almost guarantee that Ray will be trying for a win today, he is not likely to play a locked up game.

Bill Gletsos
13-11-2004, 02:48 PM
Shannon I know will be trying very hard for a win as she wanted to get 5 points this year. I am not sure what Jasmine Lauer-Smith got in 1999? She was certainly on 4 out of 10, but not sure what happened in the last round. Anyone know? Marija Jovanovic got 4.5 in 2000, Shannon 4.5 in 2003 and Andjelija Zivanovic 4 in 2002. We really struggle to field girls in the under 18 category, as so many of the girls give up playing in year 11, so didn't have a rep in 1998 and I think 2001.
According to ACF Bulletin 42 Jasmine Lauer-Smith ended up on 5.

Bill Gletsos
13-11-2004, 02:57 PM
FWIW =1st in the U10 gets you an FM title (max 3 awarded).

jenni
13-11-2004, 03:19 PM
According to ACF Bulletin 42 Jasmine Lauer-Smith ended up on 5.

Thanks Bill. So that's our highest score in the Girls under 18 over the last few years. Not sure what happened prior to 1998.

jenni
13-11-2004, 03:20 PM
FWIW =1st in the U10 gets you an FM title (max 3 awarded).

That would be nice! Still a bit of a big ask at this point. He might have to wait until the zonal in NZ. :)

Ian_Rogers
13-11-2004, 06:41 PM
The opening so far...

Song-Moussard
Heraklion World U/10 Open

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Bc4 Nd7 10.0-0-0 Nb6 11.Bb3 Na5 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.h4 Rc8 14.h5 Nbc4 15.hxg6 fxg6 16.Bg5 Nxb3+ 17.axb3 Qa5

I probably won't be able to update this, as his game is not easy to see clearly.

17.axb3 is supposed to be a mistake due to 17...Qa5.

Up to that point both players had been playing at blitz speed but now Ray has stopped to think.

Ian

jenni
13-11-2004, 06:43 PM
Thanks Ian - I have been haunting the site, but the live games don't feature Ray... sigh wish I was there.

jenni
13-11-2004, 06:46 PM
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Bc4 Nd7 10.0-0-0 Nb6 11.Bb3 Na5 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.h4 Rc8 14.h5 Nbc4 15.hxg6 fxg6 16.Bg5 Nxb3+ 17.axb3 Qa5 18.bxc4 Qxg5+ 19.Kb1 Qc5 20.Nd5 Rfe8 21.Ne3 a5 22.Nb3 Qe5 23.Qd5+ Qxd5 24.cxd5 a4 25.Nd4 a3 26.b3 Rc3 27.Rhe1 Ra8 28.Ka2 Be5 29.Re2 b5 30.Ne6 Rac8 31.f4 Bh8 32.Rd3 Rxd3 33.cxd3 Rc1 34.Nc2 b4 35.d4 Bxe6 36.dxe6 Rf1 37.e5 d5 38.g3 Rd1 39.Nxb4 Rxd4 40.Kxa3 Rd1 41.Rc2 d4 42.Rc8+ Kg7 43.Rd8 h5 44.Re8 d3 45.Rxe7+ Kf8 46.Rd7 d2 47.Kb2 h4 48.Nc6 hxg3 49.Rd8+ Kg7 50.e7 g2 51.e8=Q Rb1+ 52.Ka3

Javier Gil
13-11-2004, 06:51 PM
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Bc4 Nd7 10.0-0-0 Nb6 11.Bb3 Na5 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.h4 Rc8 14.h5 Nbc4 15.hxg6 fxg6 16.Bg5 Nxb3+ 17.axb3 Qa5 {now Ray will probably take on c4: 18.bxc Qxg5 and now 19.Rd2. Perhaps 19.Kb1 is ok, giving up the pawn on g2...} Black's 2 bishops vs 2 knights seem to give black somewhat better chances in this position, but still plenty of play for white also.}

jenni
13-11-2004, 06:55 PM
This doesn't seem so good for Ray?

Chess Dad
13-11-2004, 07:48 PM
Thanks Ian - I have been haunting the site, but the live games don't feature Ray... sigh wish I was there.


Me too!

What about France? That sounds alright.

Ian_Rogers
13-11-2004, 07:51 PM
Update.

Ray and his opponent have reached the following position (I have no idea how!):

White Ka2, Re2, Ne6, Nc2, Pd4, d5, e4, f4, b3, g2
Black: Kg8, Rc1, Bh8, Bd7, Ph7, g6, e7, d6, b4, a3

Black to play - clock times irrelevant (about an hour and a half left each!)

This seems to be muc better for Ray as he plays e5 and then cleans up the queenside pawns.

Ian

jenni
13-11-2004, 07:52 PM
Me too!

What about France? That sounds alright.

Yes the timing would suit Gareth better. this year it clashed with his end of year exams and he chose not to go and then I didn't want to go without Tony.

But July would be great. He would miss school - probably 2 - 3 weeks, but at the beginnng of the semester it is less critical. Also with our ACT system, if he has had 2 good semesters this year and a good first semester in year 12, then the last semester doesn't count for that much. He has done really well this year (as long as these final exams are Ok).

I am already looking at maps of France!

jenni
13-11-2004, 07:54 PM
results are going up and it appears that Denis and Jason have both drawn? Not sure if I totally trust them after last time!

Chess Dad
13-11-2004, 07:58 PM
Yes the timing would suit Gareth better. this year it clashed with his end of year exams and he chose not to go and then I didn't want to go without Tony.

But July would be great.
I am already looking at maps of France!

I agree July is a much better time. :)

Try this website as well whilst your waiting for the results:

http://www.franche-comte.org/defaut_anglais.htm

jenni
13-11-2004, 08:08 PM
I agree July is a much better time. :)

Try this website as well whilst your waiting for the results:

http://www.franche-comte.org/defaut_anglais.htm

Thanks that's a good site. Will you take James?

Chess Dad
13-11-2004, 08:10 PM
Thanks that's a good site. Will you take James?

Well I don't think they would let me play! :mrgreen:

jenni
13-11-2004, 08:12 PM
Well I don't think they would let me play! :mrgreen:

I just thought Jenny might get a turn - you seem to get all the overseas trips :whistle: Mind you I think Tony would prefer you. Before Gareth decided not to go, Tony was seriously bemoaning the lack of a drinking partner.

Chess Dad
13-11-2004, 08:15 PM
I just thought Jenny might get a turn - you seem to get all the overseas trips :whistle: Mind you I think Tony would prefer you. Before Gareth decided not to go, Tony was seriously bemoaning the lack of a drinking partner.


Thanks, that's going to help my reputation :doh:

Ian_Rogers
13-11-2004, 08:15 PM
Ray won!!!

Game to follow.

Chess Dad
13-11-2004, 08:16 PM
Ray won!!!

Game to follow.

Whoooo Hoooo :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

jenni
13-11-2004, 08:16 PM
Ray won!!!

Game to follow.

Fantastic -how is board 2 going? We really want Yangyi to lose!

Ian_Rogers
13-11-2004, 08:20 PM
Song,R - Moussard,J [B77]
Heraklion World U/10 Open (11), 13.11.2004

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Bc4 Nd7 10.0-0-0 Nb6 11.Bb3 Na5 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.h4 Rc8 14.h5 Nbc4 15.hxg6 fxg6 16.Bg5 Nxb3+ 17.axb3 Qa5 18.bxc4 Qxg5+ 19.Kb1 Qc5 20.Nd5 Rfe8 21.Ne3 a5 22.Nb3 Qe5 23.Qd5+ Qxd5 24.cxd5 a4 25.Nd4 a3 26.b3 Rc3 27.Rhe1 Ra8 28.Ka2 Be5 29.Re2 b5 30.Ne6 Rac8 31.f4 Bh8 32.Rd3 (Draw Offered) Rxd3 33.cxd3 Rc1 34.Nc2 b4 35.d4 Bxe6 36.dxe6 Rf1 37.e5 d5 38.g3 Rd1 39.Nxb4 Rxd4 40.Kxa3 Rd1 41.Rc2 d4 42.Rc8+ Kg7 43.Rd8 h5 (Draw offered) 44.Re8 d3 45.Rxe7+ Kf8 46.Rd7 d2 47.Kb2 h4 48.Nc6 hxg3 49.Rd8+ Kg7 50.e7 g2 51.e8Q Rb1+ 52.Ka3 1-0

As soon as Ray's game finished the Chinese boy on board two offered a draw and appeared devastated when his opponent said no.

So Ray has a chance for silver, bronze or fourth on tiebreak, but he is at worst =2nd.

Ian

jenni
13-11-2004, 08:25 PM
As soon as Ray's game finished the Chinese boy on board two offered a draw and appeared devastated when his opponent said no.

So Ray has a chance for silver, bronze or fourth on tiebreak, but he is at worst =2nd.

Ian

Yangyi's countback is higher than Jules Moussard, so the draw would ensure him first on countback. Lets hope that his position is worse as well and he wasn't just trying to grab 1st the easy way.

jenni
13-11-2004, 08:28 PM
Ian - can you remind Shannon that she has two flags in her luggage - one for Ray to wear on stage and one for the cheer squad.

Javier Gil
13-11-2004, 08:38 PM
Here's Raymond's full game:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Bc4 Nd7 10.0-0-0 Nb6 11.Bb3 Na5 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.h4 Rc8 14.h5 Nbc4 15.hxg6 fxg6 16.Bg5 Nxb3+ 17.axb3 Qa5 18.bxc4 Qxg5+ 19.Kb1 Qc5 20.Nd5 Rfe8 21.Ne3 a5 22.Nb3 Qe5 23.Qd5+ Qxd5 24.cxd5 a4 25.Nd4 a3 26.b3 Rc3 27.Rhe1 Ra8 28.Ka2 Be5 29.Re2 b5 30.Ne6 Rac8 31.f4 Bh8 32.Rd3 {Draw offered} 32...Rxd3 33.cxd3 Rc1 34.Nc2 b4 35.d4 Bxe6 36.dxe6 Rf1 37.e5 d5 38.g3 Rd1 39.Nxb4 Rxd4 40.Kxa3 Rd1 41.Rc2 d4 42.Rc8+ Kg7 43.Rd8 h5 {Draw offered} 44.Re8 d3 45.Rxe7+ Kf8 46.Rd7 d2 47.Kb2 h4 48.Nc6 hxg3 49.Rd8+ Kg7 50.e7 g2 51.e8=Q Rb1+ 52.Ka3 1-0

Ian_Rogers
13-11-2004, 08:47 PM
Yu drew and gets gold in the U/10.
Hou Yifan won, so Ray is =1st but fourth on tiebreak

The other Yu (Ronald) drew as well.

Other Australian results:

Win to Moulthun (for a total of 7.5 and a top 20 finish)
Draws to Emma, Lara, Denis, Jason, Heather, Casey
Losses for Vincent and Angela

jenni
13-11-2004, 08:53 PM
Yu drew and gets gold in the U/10.

The other Yu (Ronald) drew as well.

Other Australian results:

Win to Moulthun (for a total of 7.5 and a top 20 finish)
Draws to Emma, Lara, Denis, Jason
Loss for Vincent

Absolutely fantastic result for Moulthun as well.

So I guess it now is what is happening on board 3. If after all this Ray doesn't get 3rd I am going to cry! Still 4th is still outstanding and better than last year. AND it still is =1st - who cares about silly tie-breaks. This can be sold to the Aussie media as 1st in the world.

Does the ACF actually have a media person?

Chess Dad
13-11-2004, 08:55 PM
Yu drew and gets gold in the U/10.

The other Yu (Ronald) drew as well.

Other Australian results:

Win to Moulthun (for a total of 7.5 and a top 20 finish)
Draws to Emma, Lara, Denis, Jason
Loss for Vincent

Great result for Moulthun :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Chess Dad
13-11-2004, 08:56 PM
Any news on Angela??

jenni
13-11-2004, 08:59 PM
or any of the ones left? Ian's probably busy with a heap of games to analyse now!

jenni
13-11-2004, 09:06 PM
Angela blundered and lost.

Girl on board 3 won, so Ray gets 4th, but it is still =1st and this has to be a major media opportunity.

Ian_Rogers
13-11-2004, 09:07 PM
Unfortunately Angela blundered and lost. (see edited post above).

Still waiting on Shannon, Max, and Sherab but must sign off now.

Ian

Chess Dad
13-11-2004, 09:09 PM
Unfortunately Angela blundered and lost. (see edited post above).

Still waiting on Shannon, Max, and Sherab but must sign off now.

Ian
thank you Ian

jenni
13-11-2004, 09:11 PM
Shannon has just won, so that gives her 5 points. She is pretty happy. :)

Chess Dad
13-11-2004, 09:15 PM
Shannon has just won, so that gives her 5 points. She is pretty happy. :)

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

She can now go to the disco with a smile :)

jenni
13-11-2004, 09:23 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

She can now go to the disco with a smile :)

I think she is planning to be at the disco all night! Fortunately she doesn't leave until the 15th so she has a day to recover.

Sonia sounded very excited in her e-mail to me as well, although apparently Ray is disappointed to lose out on his FM title. Silly countback system.

Chess Dad
13-11-2004, 09:31 PM
I think she is planning to be at the disco all night! Fortunately she doesn't leave until the 15th so she has a day to recover.

Sonia sounded very excited in her e-mail to me as well, although apparently Ray is disappointed to lose out on his FM title. Silly countback system.

Yes the countback is a bit dissapointing when Ray had the same score but drew with the winner and beat 2nd.

It would have been really nice for him to be an FM.

jenni
13-11-2004, 10:44 PM
A special thank-you to the hard working Aussie coaches. I know how hard they have been working, particularly on days with doubled up rounds and an early start like today.

main team coaches were GM Ian Rogers and Manuel Weeks
other coaches IM Gary Lane, IM Laszlo Hazai and Brett Tindall.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Garvinator
13-11-2004, 11:05 PM
Yes the countback is a bit dissapointing when Ray had the same score but drew with the winner and beat 2nd.

It would have been really nice for him to be an FM.
would it be an fm title, or an fm norm?

jay_vee
13-11-2004, 11:11 PM
As there are no FM norms, the answer is fairly obvious :-).

Bill Gletsos
13-11-2004, 11:12 PM
would it be an fm title, or an fm norm?
It would appear you havent been following the forim or else you would have noticed my FWIW =1st in the U10 gets you an FM title (max 3 awarded).

Bill Gletsos
13-11-2004, 11:14 PM
As there are no FM norms, the answer is fairly obvious :-).
Correct, there is no such thing as an FM norm.

Garvinator
13-11-2004, 11:15 PM
It would appear you havent been following the forim or else you would have noticed my FWIW =1st in the U10 gets you an FM title (max 3 awarded).
no i wasnt following tonights posts closely. not feeling well. just seeing how the team is doing without taking a close interest :oops:

Chess Dad
14-11-2004, 06:25 AM
Here are the final results
Congratulations to the whole team :clap: :clap: :clap:


Name FED Rtg 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Pts. Rk.
Song Raymond AUS 2002 1 0 1 1 ½ 1 1 1 ½ 1 1 9.0 4 Boys U10
Illingworth Max AUS 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 ½ 0 1 1 ½ 5.0 85 Boys U12
Ly Moulthun AUS 2056 0 1 0 1 ½ ½ 1 ½ 1 1 1 7.5 14 Boys U14
Guo-Yuthok Sherab AUS 0 0 0 ½ 0 0 1 0 1 1 ½ ½ 4.5 101 Boys U14
Yu Ronald AUS 2202 ½ 1 0 1 ½ 1 ½ 0 ½ 1 ½ 6.5 30 Boys U16
Suttor Vincent AUS 2013 0 0 ½ 1 0 1 1 1 ½ 1 0 6.0 52 Boys U16
Bourmistrov Denis AUS 2182 0 1 0 1 ½ ½ ½ 0 0 ½ ½ 4.5 64 Boys U18
Hu Jason AUS 2062 1 0 1 ½ 0 0 0 0 1 ½ ½ 4.5 65 Boys U18
Guo Emma AUS 0 1 0 0 0 ½ 0 1 1 0 1 ½ 5.0 58 Girls U10
Ong Lara AUS 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 ½ 5.5 46 Girls U10
Song Angela AUS 1838 1 ½ ½ 0 1 1 ½ 1 0 1 0 6.5 20 Girls U12
Hickman Casey AUS 0 0 0 ½ 1 0 1 0 ½ 1 ½ ½ 5.0 63 Girls U14
Huddleston Heather AUS 1957 ½ ½ 1 0 1 ½ 0 ½ ½ ½ ½ 5.5 38 Girls U16
Oliver Shannon AUS 1980 0 0 1 0 ½ 0 1 1 ½ 0 1 5.0 50 Girls U18



http://schach.wienerzeitung.at/asp/turniere.htm?tnr=1630&art=25&fedb=AUS&bild=30&lan=1

pax
14-11-2004, 07:14 AM
Sonia sounded very excited in her e-mail to me as well, although apparently Ray is disappointed to lose out on his FM title. Silly countback system.


FM titles are barely worth the paper they're printed on these days. At the rate he's going, Ray may well be an IM in a few years. I hope the disappointment channels into a determination to keep improving.

Great result for the whole team, well done all.

And thanks Ian for taking the time to give live update on the BB, both for this tournament and the Olympiad. It's great to get live feedback from the venue!

Garvinator
14-11-2004, 07:40 AM
Why doesnt the fm title have norm standards like im and gm titles?

pax
14-11-2004, 09:02 AM
Why doesnt the fm title have norm standards like im and gm titles?

Because that would make administering it much more difficult. It has a simple rating qualification, or a bunch of tournament qualifications. Norms can be tricky to track and administer by comparison.

pax
14-11-2004, 09:05 AM
Remarkable performance by the Israeli boy Rodshtein in the u/16. He finished outright first ahead of a bunch of titled players (including 2 gms and 9 ims) despite being heavily outrated (ranked 18) and untitled.

jenni
14-11-2004, 09:47 AM
FM titles are barely worth the paper they're printed on these days. At the rate he's going, Ray may well be an IM in a few years. I hope the disappointment channels into a determination to keep improving.

Great result for the whole team, well done all.

And thanks Ian for taking the time to give live update on the BB, both for this tournament and the Olympiad. It's great to get live feedback from the venue!

When you are 10 these things matter! However knowing Ray, his result will only make him more determined next year. Looking forward to Belfort in July 2005. :)

Kerry Stead
14-11-2004, 10:02 AM
Congratulations to the team! Well done!
Raymond's result is outstanding! Has an Australian ever got =1st in a world age championship in the past?
There were some other outstanding performances, but of the rest, I really think Moulthun Ly has shown what he can do. Admittedly I haven't looked over the games, but from a results perspective, his performance was superb. Also having played him myself and seen him play, I think he is a very talented chessplayer - and a keen one at that! Lets hope he continues to improve from here, as with the rest of the team.
Could there be another generation of standout players (similar to the Rogers, Johansen, West, etc crop)?

jenni
14-11-2004, 10:35 AM
Congratulations to the team! Well done!
Raymond's result is outstanding! Has an Australian ever got =1st in a world age championship in the past?
There were some other outstanding performances, but of the rest, I really think Moulthun Ly has shown what he can do. Admittedly I haven't looked over the games, but from a results perspective, his performance was superb. Also having played him myself and seen him play, I think he is a very talented chessplayer - and a keen one at that! Lets hope he continues to improve from here, as with the rest of the team.
Could there be another generation of standout players (similar to the Rogers, Johansen, West, etc crop)?

I don't believe we have ever got an equal 1st before. I know Ian has won a medal in a youth championship, but I don't believe it was =1st (maybe he can enlighten us!). Incidentally I think we should only talk about =1st and forget about 4th!

I do believe this has been the best performing team since I became involved (1998). Even David Smerdon didn't get 7.5 in the under 14 (or Yuan for that matter). Also Moulthun was playing consistently middle and up - he never went to the bottom and got an easy run. The same applies to Vincent and Ronald and for that matter Jason, Denis, Heather etc etc.

Every single kid just did well. Even Sherab who was accompanying his sister (Aus Girls U10 champion Emma) and was given the opportunity to play repaid that faith in spades, by playing his heart out and getting some good results.

I alluded to this a bit further back in this thread. Isn't it time Australia stopped living in the past and only selecting 1 kid? Look at what China, Germany, Russia etc are doing. I know Canada selects 3 kids in each category. We need to be creating a big group of kids with this sort of experience. Apart from the playing experience it can do so much in motivation.

Lara Ong is a case in point. She has been a protege of ours and is coached by Shannon. She came 2nd in the girls under 10 in Perth and we really pushed her to go overseas. She was thinking of giving up at the end of this year and wasn't even going to the Aus Juniors in Mt Buller. Having got a 50% score in Greece and just loving the experience she now wants to play in Mt Buller and wants to carry on with her chess.

I know money is a problem and Australia couldn't fund 3 kid in each category. However we could still give the first selected kid the free acccommodation and food and the others could pay their way. So in money terms no different to now. However we would be affirming and encouraging kids to go, rather than all this denigration that goes on, about the extra kids. Vincent, Jason and Lara are all pseudo-entrants as Lord Voldemort called them, but all of them performed very well.

Ian_Rogers
14-11-2004, 07:05 PM
Australia has never had a junior tie for first in one of these events.
Off the top of my head I think we have had four players tie for third in world junior competitions - Chris Depasquale and I in the U/17 (as it was, eons ago) and Charles Pizzato and Shane Hill (I think) in the U/10. (Zhao Zong Yuan would have been added to this list were it not some last round shenanigans by the Azeris in the U/10s about eight years ago.
In terms of performance against strong opposition, probably David Smerdon's =4th in the U/16 in 2001(?) was the best of the lot.
However we have never gone close to this year's =1st, =9th and =18th with a lowest score from anyone in the delegation of -2 (4.5/11). In fact if Zhao had been available for the U/18 and played at his Olympiad level, another top 10 result might have been on the cards.
Anyway, I believe all but two of the kids gained rating points, in the case of Moulthun, Vincent and (to a slightly lesser extent) Ronald and Jason, buckets of them. (Ray didn't meet enough rated opponents to gain more than a dozen points.)

Ian

Ian_Rogers
14-11-2004, 07:12 PM
P.S. Nobody has mentioned this yet, but perhaps NECG (and the NECG squad organisers) deserve a bit of the credit for this year's result. It's only a small part of the picture but I reckon the NECG tournaments have certainly toughened some of our juniors up and made them better prepared to compete in a junior event where they play one strong player after another.

Ian

Bill Gletsos
14-11-2004, 07:28 PM
In terms of performance against strong opposition, probably David Smerdon's =4th in the U/16 in 2001(?) was the best of the lot.
Zhao was the U16 rep in 2001. He came 14th (no doubt on countback). (ACF Bulletin #139)
Smerdon played in the U16's in 2000 and was 6th (obviously on countback). (ACF Bulletin #89)

jenni
14-11-2004, 08:06 PM
Zhao Zong Yuan would have been added to this list were it not some last round shenanigans by the Azeris in the U/10s about eight years ago.

Ian
It was under 12 in 1998 and yes we wuz robbed.

jenni
14-11-2004, 08:11 PM
P.S. Nobody has mentioned this yet, but perhaps NECG (and the NECG squad organisers) deserve a bit of the credit for this year's result. It's only a small part of the picture but I reckon the NECG tournaments have certainly toughened some of our juniors up and made them better prepared to compete in a junior event where they play one strong player after another.

Ian

talking of NECG - I am sending out an e-mail tomorrow to various coaches/junior organisers - I have been waiting for first the Olympiad and then the World youth to finish. The NECG needs revamping - we always said it was going to be a format that evolved over time. I would like to get some extra input on some ideas.

I think NECG is valuable, so is the Young and Junior Masters. The quality coaching the team is getting at the World Youth is also a factor. I think maybe the Aussies are starting to believe they can do it as well and not that they are always outclassed.

pax
16-11-2004, 04:34 PM
I alluded to this a bit further back in this thread. Isn't it time Australia stopped living in the past and only selecting 1 kid? Look at what China, Germany, Russia etc are doing. I know Canada selects 3 kids in each category. We need to be creating a big group of kids with this sort of experience. Apart from the playing experience it can do so much in motivation.

But if you look at the most successful team of the tournament, it was Poland, with a relatively small squad. They had one or two in most divisions (and 3 in the girls u/18), and almost every one of those players performed exceptionally.

If you look at China, they send many players in the lower age groups, and few or none in the older (10,4,3,0,0 in the boys, 3,3,1,1,0 in the girls). I'm not quite sure why that is.

I'm not sure that there is a lot to be gained by sending a lot of players who are likely to perform in the under 50% region. The quality of players they meet in that region (at least for the younger divisions) isn't that strong. The experience would be great, but at very large expense that might be better spent developing quality chess coaching and tournaments in Australia.

Libby
16-11-2004, 04:49 PM
I'm not sure that there is a lot to be gained by sending a lot of players who are likely to perform in the under 50% region. The quality of players they meet in that region (at least for the younger divisions) isn't that strong. The experience would be great, but at very large expense that might be better spent developing quality chess coaching and tournaments in Australia.

Always happy to admit ignorance of the full range of issues but maybe a compromise would be an increased push to get players into the Asian events? Closer to home (=less costly), possibly lacking the same prestige but if it was a more active, coordinated push with coaching & team atmosphere it may fulfill part of the desire to encourage and develop more players with international experience without quite the same distance involved. Possibly even some kind of tie-in for the NECG program? Strictly just floating ideas here ...

Garvinator
16-11-2004, 04:57 PM
Always happy to admit ignorance of the full range of issues but maybe a compromise would be an increased push to get players into the Asian events? Closer to home (=less costly), possibly lacking the same prestige but if it was a more active, coordinated push with coaching & team atmosphere it may fulfill part of the desire to encourage and develop more players with international experience without quite the same distance involved. Possibly even some kind of tie-in for the NECG program? Strictly just floating ideas here ...
just thinking, i dont think distance is the problem, it would be standard of international opposition and cost of travel :hmm:

arosar
16-11-2004, 05:37 PM
I'm not sure that there is a lot to be gained by sending a lot of players who are likely to perform in the under 50% region. The quality of players they meet in that region (at least for the younger divisions) isn't that strong. The experience would be great, but at very large expense that might be better spent developing quality chess coaching and tournaments in Australia.

Ooohhh....you are so not going there. jenni will do a Mt Etna on you, lemme tell ya!

Look, put it this way, at least these kids get to go on a holiday.

AR

jenni
16-11-2004, 07:11 PM
But if you look at the most successful team of the tournament, it was Poland, with a relatively small squad. They had one or two in most divisions (and 3 in the girls u/18), and almost every one of those players performed exceptionally.



Well yes something to aim for, but they still sent a squad of 15.




If you look at China, they send many players in the lower age groups, and few or none in the older (10,4,3,0,0 in the boys, 3,3,1,1,0 in the girls). I'm not quite sure why that is.





Only guessing, but I would assume it is a matter of "face" and that they only send players they think will do well. I think they are really focusing on the younger age groups and as they build up quality we will see bigger number in the older groups.




I'm not sure that there is a lot to be gained by sending a lot of players who are likely to perform in the under 50% region. The quality of players they meet in that region (at least for the younger divisions) isn't that strong. The experience would be great, but at very large expense that might be better spent developing quality chess coaching and tournaments in Australia.

Well I have to disagree. For a start we have a lot of players capable of performing in the over 50% region who never get to go, because we have Category killers who grab the spot every year. e.g. who is ever going to get the spot ahead of Ray, just like Zong-Yuan Zhao always got his David Smerdon etc. Yet we had kids more than capable of getting 6 points or 6.5 points say, who never got to go. Perhaps with that added experience we might have a couple of more kids who made it to the 2300+ territory, not just them.

An example James Obst could have gone in the under 14 this year as well as Moulthun Ly. James won the major at Doeberl and would have performed very well (never know for sure!) in the under 14. However Moulthun got hte spot. If we had had Moulthun, James and Junta Ikeda all selected say (or Justin Huang), I would be sure they would all perform well and get valuable experience.

I think any of the kids who are thinking of going overseas already get good coaching and play a lot of quality tournaments. What they need is variety of experience and playing other really strong juniors. It is just different. I would rather play a 1600 point adult any day than an 1100 point junior. I think before you say that the players in the 50% regioin aren't that strong, you need to see some of the plays.

this is a quote from Ian Rogers in an e-mail to me during the comp.

"In truth it is very tough. I guess I say that every year. But to watch Emma have to pull off a five move combination to win yesterday when she had 1.5/6 was a bit of a shock. "

He was talking about Emma Guo in the girls under 10 which is about as weak a division as you can get. Emma was right down the bottom and she was still having to find that level of play.

The other point is when you play at the world youth it is 11 hard games one after the other (or 10 if you get the Kenyan). When you play in Australia it is a bounce - you might get a couple of hard games, but then you go down the bottom and play mugs like me.

jenni
16-11-2004, 07:18 PM
Always happy to admit ignorance of the full range of issues but maybe a compromise would be an increased push to get players into the Asian events? Closer to home (=less costly), possibly lacking the same prestige but if it was a more active, coordinated push with coaching & team atmosphere it may fulfill part of the desire to encourage and develop more players with international experience without quite the same distance involved. Possibly even some kind of tie-in for the NECG program? Strictly just floating ideas here ...

I don't think it is an either or. We can select multiple kids in the world youth and encourage more kids to the Asian and any other suitable comps. Cost is our bigggest hurdle and parents are going to continue to be the ones to foot the bill. For those for whom Europe is too expensive (or too long), the Asian Juniors is a great comp.

This is one of the first things that I would like to see the Junior sub-committee discuss in 2005, when it gets convened.

jenni
16-11-2004, 07:19 PM
Ooohhh....you are so not going there. jenni will do a Mt Etna on you, lemme tell ya!

Look, put it this way, at least these kids get to go on a holiday.

AR

Don't be silly Amiel, I have no objection to reasoned debate. It is only deliberate stirring (like your last sentence) that gets to me.

ursogr8
16-11-2004, 08:16 PM
This is one of the first things that I would like to see the Junior sub-committee discuss in 2005, when it gets convened.



talking of NECG - I am sending out an e-mail tomorrow to various coaches/junior organisers - I have been waiting for first the Olympiad and then the World youth to finish. The NECG needs revamping - we always said it was going to be a format that evolved over time. I would like to get some extra input on some ideas.




jenni

I have been asked if there are plans to have an NECG occasion in Victoria in 2005?


starter

jenni
16-11-2004, 09:27 PM
jenni

I have been asked if there are plans to have an NECG occasion in Victoria in 2005?


starter

I don't want to prempt the debate that has just started, but my proposal is to have 1 mega camp, rather then 3 little ones. This would cycle around states, so yes Vic would be a candidate, provided they are prepared to take on the organising role, provide billets etc.

I have also proposed no longer tieing the camp to a tournament, but rather having a list of major tournaments, such as Ballarat, Doeberl, Uni Open, NSW open, Gold Coast etc and have as partof the squad commitment that you had to play in 2 of these.

I have e-mailed major junior chess coaches with my proposals and have had a few replies, but I am sure there will be other ideas raised and so not sure where it will end up.

jenni
16-11-2004, 09:52 PM
Had a bit of spare time on my hands so I calculated the Buch and M-Buch for the top 4. (As I have stated earlier, I believe progressive is inappropropriate for a division in which only around 16 of the 130 kids were rated. )



Yu Yangyi Buch 76.5 M-Buch 64
Jules Moussard Buch 77.5 M-Buch 65
Yifan Hou Buch 71 M-Buch 58.5
Raymond Song Buch 77.5 M-Buch 64



Based on this Jules Moussard would have taken gold and Ray the silver.

Alan Shore
16-11-2004, 10:16 PM
Had a bit of spare time on my hands so I calculated the Buch and M-Buch for the top 4. (As I have stated earlier, I believe progressive is inappropropriate for a division in which only around 16 of the 130 kids were rated. )



Yu Yangyi Buch 76.5 M-Buch 64
Jules Moussard Buch 77.5 M-Buch 65
Yifan Hou Buch 71 M-Buch 58.5
Raymond Song Buch 77.5 M-Buch 64



Based on this Jules Moussard would have taken gold and Ray the silver.

That's a real shame. I'm not fond of tie-breaks myself, I'd rather have playoffs but I suppose time constraints will always be a problem. What do you think the fairest form of tiebreak is?

jenni
16-11-2004, 10:28 PM
That's a real shame. I'm not fond of tie-breaks myself, I'd rather have playoffs but I suppose time constraints will always be a problem. What do you think the fairest form of tiebreak is?

I think there isn't a simple answer. Progressive is fine where you have rated kids as it measures who drops games to lower rated players (although even there FIDE ratings can be out of kilter with current playing strength). It really is a bit silly in the under 10s. e.g the supposedly weak person that Ray lost to in round 2 ended up on 8 points and =5th.

M-Buch and Buch seem to be as fair as you get in a predominanatly unseeded tournament. However like you I am not a big fan of tie-breaks and prefer playoffs. Unfortunately they have to be at short time controls and it seems a shame after maybe 2 weeks of playing long time controls to have it decided by a penalty shootout. Still other sports have to cope with it, so no different I guess.

pax
17-11-2004, 08:04 AM
I think there isn't a simple answer. Progressive is fine where you have rated kids as it measures who drops games to lower rated players (although even there FIDE ratings can be out of kilter with current playing strength). It really is a bit silly in the under 10s. e.g the supposedly weak person that Ray lost to in round 2 ended up on 8 points and =5th.


I think the point is not who he lost to, but, having lost that game, that he had relatively easier opposition in the following rounds. Having said that, I reckon Bucholz is probably a better measure, and his Bucholz score was good..

pax
17-11-2004, 08:34 AM
Well yes something to aim for, but they still sent a squad of 15.

And we sent a squad of 14. Not a big difference?




Well I have to disagree. For a start we have a lot of players capable of performing in the over 50% region who never get to go, because we have Category killers who grab the spot every year. e.g. who is ever going to get the spot ahead of Ray, just like Zong-Yuan Zhao always got his David Smerdon etc. Yet we had kids more than capable of getting 6 points or 6.5 points say, who never got to go. Perhaps with that added experience we might have a couple of more kids who made it to the 2300+ territory, not just them.


There are some divisions, I agree where there is more than one stand out candidate. In some, however I feel there probably isn't. Often some of the best candidates can't go for financial or other reasons in any case.

In any case, extra players who wish to pay their own way, can. I believe the selected players only get free accommodation?

Quote from newsletter 169:
"Apart from the 10 selected children the opportunity exists for other Australian Juniors to play in the tournament (all entries have to be ratified by the Australian Chess Federation)"

So I can only assume your suggestion is for the ACF to pay for these extra players to go. If some great sponsorship deal can be found, then go for it. Otherwise, I just can't see that the ACF has the cash! If some small amount of extra funding were found, I suspect it would be better spent on the top selected players and coaches (I'm sure that many still cannot go for financial reasons)..

Pax

Ian Rout
17-11-2004, 09:06 AM
I think the point is not who he lost to, but, having lost that game, that he had relatively easier opposition in the following rounds.

This is the theoretical underpinning of the system and it doesn't work that way. In practice we see any number of times that games against players on n points are easier (though that may well be a relative term) than those against players on n-.5 in the earlier stages. Or two top players may meet early on and draw, putting them behind a compatriot who gets the earlier bite of the second tier. A comical possibility is that two players can meet identical fields with identical outcomes and have different tie-breaks.


Having said that, I reckon Bucholz is probably a better measure, and his Bucholz score was good.

Bucholz is at least sensible but has the drawback that an otherwise good performance is wrecked by one win, generally the first round, being against a player at the tail of the field while a player with an obviously inferior field beat a mid-fielder in the first round, so gaining about four extra Bucholz points.

But I agree, I would back BUcholz to be the most meaningful most often, especially if each player's worst opponent is discounted. (I think this is what "modified Bucholz" does, is that right?)

Progressive score has two strengths that I can see

1. It is easier for organsiers, they can work out the tie-break as soon as the top games have finished without waiting for other results.

2. A better argument is that it allows players to control their own destiny, they know what the scenarios are and don't have to gamble on the results on boards 38 and 53. This also removes a source of potential corruption.

Overall I think we have to say that there is no complete answer and if we have Swiss tournaments, where players meet different fields, then we have to accept a bit of approximateness in the results.

jay_vee
17-11-2004, 09:06 AM
That's a real shame. I'm not fond of tie-breaks myself, I'd rather have playoffs but I suppose time constraints will always be a problem. What do you think the fairest form of tiebreak is?

The one big advantage progressive has over Buch is that progressive depends solely on your own performance, whereas Buch is affected by how your opponents play even after you've played them. This is of course most obvious when a good player decides to drop out of the tournament after a few rounds.

Disadvantages of progressive include the relience of good pretournament ranking of players according to strength (not alphabet, as in the u/10) as well as the fact that it allows you to calculate your final tiebreak score before the last round and thereby encourages quick draws.

Rincewind
17-11-2004, 09:44 AM
Posters. Please note there are 2 h's in Buchholz. ;)

jenni
17-11-2004, 10:33 AM
Posters. Please note there are 2 h's in Buchholz. ;)

We can't spell common English words, so a technical term has no chance. :)

Trent Parker
17-11-2004, 10:54 AM
Posters. Please note there are 2 h's in Buchholz. ;) ummm..... Who cares? we all knew what it meant.

jenni
17-11-2004, 11:09 AM
There are some divisions, I agree where there is more than one stand out candidate. In some, however I feel there probably isn't. Often some of the best candidates can't go for financial or other reasons in any case.


I think it probably couldn't be a flat 3 per division or whatever, as we would be really scratching in some divisions to find decent candidates. it is also true that sometimes the best candidate declines their selection. I do not believe cost is the factor - in the ones I am aware of over many years, it is normally putting school/Uni work first, or choosing Olympiad seelction over World youth.



In any case, extra players who wish to pay their own way, can. I believe the selected players only get free accommodation?

Quote from newsletter 169:
"Apart from the 10 selected children the opportunity exists for other Australian Juniors to play in the tournament (all entries have to be ratified by the Australian Chess Federation)"

So I can only assume your suggestion is for the ACF to pay for these extra players to go. If some great sponsorship deal can be found, then go for it. Otherwise, I just can't see that the ACF has the cash! If some small amount of extra funding were found, I suspect it would be better spent on the top selected players and coaches (I'm sure that many still cannot go for financial reasons)..

Pax

No I am not suggesting that any extra money be given to the extra selections - I think I stated that parents would still have to bear the burden. There are however intangible reasons why changing the emphasis would be good.

Over the last few years there has been a lot of negative sentiment towards kids who decide to take themselves over. Some coaches e.g. Michael Gluzman really pushed kids to go, others have been very derogatory of anyone who wasn't selected making that decision.

It thus means that some very good kids actually feel they shouldn't go if they are not selected, even if money is not an issue and they really want to go.

I know of one junior (not Gareth!), who was a very close contender for selection this year. He missed out by a fraction and wouldn't go (I tried to talk him into it). I feel very sure that if we had multiple selections and he was one of them, he would have gone. We just really need to create a bigger pool of strong players and this is one way of doing it.

I would think the under 14 is stronger than any swiss we have in Australia.

Also it is easier to get sponsorship if you are selected - even if this is the second or third selection. e.g. kids in the ACT get funding from the ACT Governement for trips overseas (we get funded in the same way as sports people).

Other sports select multiple people - why don't we. e.g. swimming would select multiple people in a particular distance and look at the Olympics where sometimes the second string performed better than the top swimmer.

Once the kids are over there, and once the decision is made there is no difference in how they are treated, apart from asking some of them for more money than others. When I put together the coaching schedules, I did it on strength and expressed preferences, not on who was selected and who wasn't. (i.e I don't put the selected kids with Ian and non-selected with Manuel or anything like that).

By having a formal process where more than one is selected in a particular area, we are being proactive in encouraging kids to go and also saying to some of them that we feel they are good enough to go, rather than discouraging kids.

Lets look back 2 years ago to where Raymond Song was NOT selected to be Australia's rep. If he hadn't had a sister who was an official selection, he might not have gone over to play (He actually played as a New Zealander that year). He might have stayed home, not progressed and we wouldn't now be sitting with his fantastic result. Wouldn't it have been better in 2002 if he had been one of 2 kids officially selected for the under 10?

I can't see why it does any harm to have more than 1 selection? However this doesn't mean we shouldn't also be trying to develop our juniors by getting them into stronger competitions in Australia and the surrounding areas. We should be doing it all!

Rincewind
17-11-2004, 12:24 PM
We can't spell common English words, so a technical term has no chance. :)

I don't think you misspelled it. It was Jon and Ian that I was mainly talking about. ;)

Trent, I don't make it a habit of checking spelling but when a word is repeatedly misspelled I think it is worth correcting, as it is no longer a typo. The other time I bother is when it is on documents like tournament notices etc, where spelling mistakes look amateurish.

I believe it has its origins as a German surname. (I have a colleague who is a Buchholz, which is probably why I can remember how to spell it). Although I don't know the history of the tie-breaking system. Bill is usually knowledgeable in such areas and might be able to shed some light. I expect a Herr Buchholz was probably instrumental in its design.

Alan Shore
17-11-2004, 12:33 PM
I'm sure Barry is someone who would not appreciate having his surname mis-spelled ;)

arosar
17-11-2004, 12:46 PM
A coupla weeks ago, the team on Sunrise were talking about one of Mel's friend's son. The son's name was Isaac Cox. One day, the father was bouncing Isaac and repeatedly uttered his name, "Isaac Cox". It suddenly dawned on the parents that there was something wrong and changed the name immediately.

AR

pax
17-11-2004, 03:20 PM
No I am not suggesting that any extra money be given to the extra selections - I think I stated that parents would still have to bear the burden. There are however intangible reasons why changing the emphasis would be good.

You might be right, but I suspect the reaction of most people would be "what's the point" if they can go at present anyway? I think if you have official selections like that you have to have something to offer them. Maybe that means *not* allowing players who aren't selected to go.

arosar
17-11-2004, 03:37 PM
Dejavu!!

AR

Bill Gletsos
17-11-2004, 03:39 PM
Not that I agree with pax, but wasnt he suggesting that if the number of selected kids was increased from 1 per division to 3 then in that case non selected's should not be permitted to go.
That would seem to increase the number of entries over the current situation rather than reduce it.
Or am I missing something here jenni?

jenni
17-11-2004, 04:18 PM
Not that I agree with pax, but wasnt he suggesting that if the number of selected kids was increased from 1 per division to 3 then in that case non selected's should not be permitted to go.
That would seem to increase the number of entries over the current situation rather than reduce it.
Or am I missing something here jenni?

Yes you are right - having reread it - I was too hasty in snapping back an answer. Possibly read what I expected to see. (Besides it was an excuse for a nice sarcastic statement and as Amiel couldn't wait to point out, I do like that),

It is an idea with possibilities - allows for us to send bigger numbers of kids, but still reward them by having the selections be of value.

Maybe we shouldn't have any fixed number, but select the number of kids that seem to be of the correct standard to play? That could be 1 in the girls under 10 and 4 in the Open under 16 say? And would change from year to year depending on quality. Once the selections have been done, then no extras allowed to go.

At the moment it gets difficult with kids and parents able to decide until the last minute whether they want to go or not. Also kids of very dubious quality putting themselves forward, but no-one wanting to say they can't go.

You would also need criteria behind the selctions e.g. are we selecting only kids we think can get 50% or better, or are we selecting a kid that we think has potential. You might in the older groups only select those that you think have a realistic chance of a reasonable score, but be a bit more genrous in the under 12 and uner 10 groups, where it is sometimes hard to work out what a kid can do.

Something for the junior sub-committee to discuss!,

Rincewind
17-11-2004, 04:33 PM
A coupla weeks ago, the team on Sunrise were talking about one of Mel's friend's son. The son's name was Isaac Cox. One day, the father was bouncing Isaac and repeatedly uttered his name, "Isaac Cox". It suddenly dawned on the parents that there was something wrong and changed the name immediately.

Could be worse. He could have been the son of a well known ex-aussie-rule playing, ex-policeman, fish-kisser from Victoria.

arosar
17-11-2004, 04:44 PM
Could be worse. He could have been the son of a well known ex-aussie-rule playing, ex-policeman, fish-kisser from Victoria.

ROTFL!

I gotta hand it to you Barry. I think that's your best line ever!! I am moved to :lol: :lol: :clap:

AR

Kerry Stead
17-11-2004, 04:52 PM
Could be worse. He could have been the son of a well known ex-aussie-rule playing, ex-policeman, fish-kisser from Victoria.
young Michael?

Alan Shore
17-11-2004, 05:06 PM
young Michael?

I once had a footy coach by the name of Mike Rutch... (no joke).

Isaac Hunt.. great name for a porn star, just as good as George Costanza's suggestion of Buck Naked.

... how'd we even get onto this topic?

arosar
17-11-2004, 05:12 PM
... how'd we even get onto this topic?

Don't look at me. Blame the mods!

AR

Thunk
17-11-2004, 06:44 PM
... how'd we even get onto this topic?

might wEll you ask, brucE dickinson.

Bill Gletsos
18-11-2004, 07:15 PM
I believe it has its origins as a German surname. (I have a colleague who is a Buchholz, which is probably why I can remember how to spell it). Although I don't know the history of the tie-breaking system. Bill is usually knowledgeable in such areas and might be able to shed some light. I expect a Herr Buchholz was probably instrumental in its design.
Buchholz is named after Bruno Buchholz from Magdeburg who was the originator of the system. He died in 1958. It was used probably for the first time in 1932 at a tournament at Bitterfield. Buchholz took part in that tournament.

Libby
21-11-2004, 05:51 PM
OK _ Maybe I overlooked it elsewhere in the forums but did people see Raymond on Ch 9 news last night (Saturday). He got the "novelty" spot after the weather. Usual horrible and inaccurate reporting of chess but still not bad (I think he was described as the youngest World Champion ever, with no age group qualification on it).

Garvinator
21-11-2004, 05:57 PM
OK _ Maybe I overlooked it elsewhere in the forums but did people see Raymond on Ch 9 news last night (Saturday). He got the "novelty" spot after the weather. Usual horrible and inaccurate reporting of chess but still not bad (I think he was described as the youngest World Champion ever, with no age group qualification on it).
I did see this report as well. No it has not been mentioned elsewhere on here.

jenni
21-11-2004, 09:55 PM
OK _ Maybe I overlooked it elsewhere in the forums but did people see Raymond on Ch 9 news last night (Saturday). He got the "novelty" spot after the weather. Usual horrible and inaccurate reporting of chess but still not bad (I think he was described as the youngest World Champion ever, with no age group qualification on it).

Didn't see it, although I know Ashley Rambukwella (ACF Publicity Officer) had organised a media briefing for Ray on Saturday morning at North Sydney Leagues Club, so presumably came out of that.