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Oepty
04-05-2013, 08:49 PM
Is eternal life a good idea?

Yes I think eternal life is a good idea. Better than being dead.

ER
04-05-2013, 09:10 PM
Is eternal life a good idea?

Only if you 're stuck with the right mob!

Desmond
04-05-2013, 09:10 PM
Is eternal life a good idea?

Yes I think eternal life is a good idea. Better than being dead.
Says you after thinking about it for how long? What if you change your mind? Too bad I guess, just grin and bear it for the next trillion trillion trillion years?

Oepty
04-05-2013, 09:22 PM
Says you after thinking about it for how long? What if you change your mind? Too bad I guess, just grin and bear it for the next trillion trillion trillion years?

I guess so.

Kevin Bonham
04-05-2013, 09:38 PM
Is eternal life a good idea?

Who cares? I think beating Magnus Carlsen in a 20-game match within three years would be a good idea. Doesn't mean it's going to happen to me and if I took the supposed possibility into account in considering my beliefs or actions I would be certifiably insane.

Desmond
04-05-2013, 09:52 PM
I guess so.
Cool, well you should have that fake grin down rather well by then.

I mean, what does eternity entail? Take a trillion years per every atom in the universe to think about that atom, and you still have eternity left. Ya don't think yer might run out of stuff to do? You don't think at some point you will become so bored you would give ANYTHING for it to end, yet it NEVER will? It's probably the cruelest punishment inflictable on a sentient being.

Oepty
04-05-2013, 10:07 PM
Cool, well you should have that fake grin down rather well by then.

I mean, what does eternity entail? Take a trillion years per every atom in the universe to think about that atom, and you still have eternity left. Ya don't think yer might run out of stuff to do? You don't think at some point you will become so bored you would give ANYTHING for it to end, yet it NEVER will? It's probably the cruelest punishment inflictable on a sentient being.

I guess I will find out, pity I will not be able to tell you about it.

Kevin Bonham
04-05-2013, 10:08 PM
Actually I think eternal life is a good idea, provided I get to spend it stirring Christians who claimed I would be denied it and were thereby proven wrong, and who had denied themselves things in search of a better chance of getting it only to find it made no difference.

Long before I had finished stirring them over it (and in fact I would never finish!) they would think eternal life was a very bad idea!

(This is a variant of what used to happen when Christians told me I was going to Hell. I'd just say "look mate, I'll see you there, I'll be the one with the whip!")

Oepty
04-05-2013, 10:10 PM
EDITED BECAUSE IT CAUSED jak SOME CONCERN.

IT WAS JUST A BIT OF FUN

ER
04-05-2013, 10:58 PM
oepty are you OK?

Oepty
04-05-2013, 11:12 PM
oepty are you OK?

I am very good, I have a big smile on my face.

I had a lovely day today in nature, really enjoyed myself with friends, saw some cool birds I do not ever think I have seen. I really am beginning to appreciate bird life a lot more. I used to dismiss them as being less interesting than other animals but not any more. Remarkably beautiful.

I even saw a couple of Tasmanian Devils today. I love Tasmanian devils from my time in Tasmania when I saw them.

Now what have I done that concerns you?

Oepty
04-05-2013, 11:18 PM
Actually I think eternal life is a good idea, provided I get to spend it stirring Christians who claimed I would be denied it and were thereby proven wrong, and who had denied themselves things in search of a better chance of getting it only to find it made no difference.

Long before I had finished stirring them over it (and in fact I would never finish!) they would think eternal life was a very bad idea!

(This is a variant of what used to happen when Christians told me I was going to Hell. I'd just say "look mate, I'll see you there, I'll be the one with the whip!")

I believe there is a variant of Christianity that believes everyone will eventually get saved from death to live forever. So you might get your chance to be the stirrer in chief.

ER
04-05-2013, 11:22 PM
I am very good, I have a big smile on my face.

I had a lovely day to day in nature, really enjoyed myself with friends, saw some cool birds I do not ever think I have seen. I really am beginning to appreciate bird life a lot more. I used to dismiss them as being less interesting than other animals but not any more. Remarkably beautiful.

I even saw a couple of Tasmanian Devils today. I love Tasmanian devils from my time in Tasmania when I saw them.

Now what have I done that concerns you?

Good to know you think you are OK! Judging by your 04-05-2013 10:10 PM post, however, I was a bit worried!

Oepty
04-05-2013, 11:29 PM
Good to know you think you are OK! Judging by your 04-05-2013 10:10 PM post, however, I was a bit worried!

It was just a bit of fun

Saragossa
04-05-2013, 11:54 PM
I would take a conditional eternal life, where, though I continued one conciousness, every 700 years my earlier life sapped away from memory totally, allowing renewed interest in another 700 years of attempting to get the Chesschat title of best arcade player - DAMN YOU LITTLESPROUT!!! :P

Adamski
04-05-2013, 11:55 PM
Is eternal life a good idea?

Yes I think eternal life is a good idea. Better than being dead.
It surely is. I look forward to it and with the right mob - true believers in Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

Desmond
05-05-2013, 07:55 AM
I guess I will find out, pity I will not be able to tell you about it.All the more time for practising your harp.

How do you expect a typical day to unfold for you, oh say, 1.2 billion years into eternity?

Oepty
05-05-2013, 09:09 AM
All the more time for practising your harp.

How do you expect a typical day to unfold for you, oh say, 1.2 billion years into eternity?

I do not know.

Desmond
05-05-2013, 11:42 AM
I do not know.
Wow sounds amazing, I bet you can't wait [/sarcasm]

Adamski
05-05-2013, 02:58 PM
All the more time for practising your harp.

How do you expect a typical day to unfold for you, oh say, 1.2 billion years into eternity?
Worshipping God (probably not on the harp), eternal happiness (no crying, Rev 21:4), fellowshipping with fellow believers and our Lord, etc. It will be indescribably wonderful, in God's presence eternally.....

Kevin Bonham
05-05-2013, 03:08 PM
Worshipping God (probably not on the harp), eternal happiness (no crying, Rev 21:4), fellowshipping with fellow believers and our Lord, etc. It will be indescribably wonderful, in God's presence eternally.....

Sounds indescribably boring.

Oepty
05-05-2013, 03:30 PM
Sounds indescribably boring.

Hardly surprising that that is your view.

Desmond
05-05-2013, 03:36 PM
Hardly surprising that that is your view.
Hardly surprising that anything would become boring if repeated ad infinitum.

Redmond Barry
07-05-2013, 03:23 AM
if youre inclined towards watching paint dry or trainspotting then eternal life is possibly a superb idea. ;)

John777
09-05-2013, 09:26 PM
Is eternal life a good idea?

Yes I think eternal life is a good idea. Better than being dead.

A pretty open question.

I'm a King James Bible Believing Christian yes eternal life is a good idea, the word "eternal life" life has to be defined because people have different ideas what it is, i would say that "eternal life" is only possible because of the Lord Jesus Christ,

John 14:
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So no Jesus no eternal life, that is the way it is. :D

Oepty
09-05-2013, 09:31 PM
A pretty open question.

I'm a King James Bible Believing Christian yes eternal life is a good idea, the word "eternal life" life has to be defined because people have different ideas what it is, i would say that "eternal life" is only possible because of the Lord Jesus Christ,

John 14:
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So no Jesus no eternal life, that is the way it is. :D

I agree it is a good idea. I also agree with you, no Jesus, no eternal life.

I started this thread in response to a post in another thread which was off topic to that thread.

I also have struggled to take the thread totally seriously because I think it is so obviously a good idea I cannot understand the opposite view at all.

Adamski
09-05-2013, 09:43 PM
I agree with both John777 and Oepty. The only thing so far that I disagree with the former on is that the KJV is the only Bible. God can use any translation to save people. And as one preacher said, God can save people through footnotes. ( Thinking of the NIV [Nearlu Inspired Version] where the end of Msrk's Gospel e.g. is in a footnote.)

Rincewind
09-05-2013, 10:21 PM
I agree with both John777 and Oepty. The only thing so far that I disagree with the former on is that the KJV is the only Bible. God can use any translation to save people. And as one preacher said, God can save people through footnotes. ( Thinking of the NIV [Nearlu Inspired Version] where the end of Msrk's Gospel e.g. is in a footnote.)

Serious question though...

earlier you said children too young to have known Jesus (even pre-term deaths) would go to heaven. How does that match "no Jesus no eternal life"?

Adamski
09-05-2013, 11:23 PM
Serious question though...

earlier you said children too young to have known Jesus (even pre-term deaths) would go to heaven. How does that match "no Jesus no eternal life"?
It doesn't. So I have to say on reflection I dont agree with "no Jesus, no eternal life" for that reason. I believe that I will see our dead twins and miscarried babies in heaven None of these had the opportunity to hear anything about Jesus. Our just God will take that into account and the Bible says he judges righteously.

Saragossa
10-05-2013, 12:11 AM
Do adults who lived without any knowledge of Jesus go to heaven on death?

Adamski
10-05-2013, 12:41 AM
Do adults who lived without any knowledge of Jesus go to heaven on death?
Well they have a conscience. If they have lived complately in accordance with a right/ righteous conscience, then I believe they would go to heaven. BUt "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) so it is very unlikely. The only exception is Jesus Christ Himself.

Desmond
10-05-2013, 07:38 AM
I'm a King James Bible Believing Christian yes eternal life is a good idea, the word "eternal life" life has to be defined because people have different ideas what it is,Indeed. My idea of what eternity is is something without beginning in time and without end in time. So the idea that you could have this mortal life for a specific duration in time, and after that have an eternal life, would appear to be a contradiction.



I think it is so obviously a good idea I cannot understand the opposite view at all.If you cannot even tell me what you are planning on spending eternity doing, how can you possibly gauge if it better than death or not. Would eternal torture be better than death? Would eternal boredom?

Adamski
10-05-2013, 08:13 AM
When the Bible speaks of eternal life it is not extending it into the eternal past. Only the eternal future. Most famously, Jesus speaking in John 3:16.

Kevin Bonham
10-05-2013, 11:44 AM
I'm a King James Bible Believing Christian [..]

Are you also a chess player?

Desmond
10-05-2013, 11:56 AM
When the Bible speaks of eternal life it is not extending it into the eternal past. Only the eternal future. Most famously, Jesus speaking in John 3:16.So some people get a longer eternity than others. So it's kinda not actually eternity then.

Rincewind
10-05-2013, 12:27 PM
So some people get a longer eternity than others. So it's kinda not actually eternity then.

I think you're mistaken on this point. One question to think about is the set of integers greater than 0 and the set of integers greater than 100. Which set is larger? Both are infinite and while you could argue that the first set has 100 members that the second does not, you can set up a one to one correspondence between members with the rule A[i] = B[i] - 100. which is valid for all A and B and thus the sets are the same size. In the terminology of set theory we are talking about the cardinality, and these two set have the same cardinality which is denoted by aleph-null which denotes a "countable infinity".

Oepty
10-05-2013, 12:35 PM
I think you're mistaken on this point. One question to think about is the set of integers greater than 0 and the set of integers greater than 100. Which set is larger? Both are infinite and while you could argue that the first set has 100 members that the second does not, you can set up a one to one correspondence between members with the rule A[i] = B[i] - 100. which is valid for all A and B and thus the sets are the same size. In the terminology of set theory we are talking about the cardinality, and these two set have the same cardinality which is denoted by aleph-null which denotes a "countable infinity".

I agree with Barry on this and I also think it is quite funny.

Desmond
10-05-2013, 12:38 PM
I think you're mistaken on this point. One question to think about is the set of integers greater than 0 and the set of integers greater than 100. Which set is larger? Both are infinite and while you could argue that the first set has 100 members that the second does not, you can set up a one to one correspondence between members with the rule A[i] = B[i] - 100. which is valid for all A and B and thus the sets are the same size. In the terminology of set theory we are talking about the cardinality, and these two set have the same cardinality which is denoted by aleph-null which denotes a "countable infinity".
In the context of religion there are those who would argue that God is eternal i.e. he has no beginning and no end and therefore eternal. I do not believe a "for those who came in late" version of eternity is best termed as "eternity".

Desmond
10-05-2013, 12:39 PM
I agree with Barry on this and I also think it is quite funny.
So you agree that God can be eternal yet there was a time when he was not?

Oepty
10-05-2013, 12:40 PM
In the context of religion there are those who would argue that God is eternal i.e. he has no beginning and no end and therefore eternal. I do not believe a "for those who came in late" version of eternity is best termed as "eternity".

It is an interesting difference in the use of the same term.
Is the term 'live for ever' a better term in your view?

Oepty
10-05-2013, 12:41 PM
So you agree that God can be eternal yet there was a time when he was not?

No.

Desmond
10-05-2013, 12:53 PM
It is an interesting difference in the use of the same term.
Is the term 'live for ever' a better term in your view?
According to Stanford (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/eternity/#Ety):


It is usual to make the contrast clear by calling one of these ‘eternity’ or ‘atemporality’ and the other ‘sempiternity’ or ‘everlastingness'.

Rincewind
10-05-2013, 01:07 PM
In the context of religion there are those who would argue that God is eternal i.e. he has no beginning and no end and therefore eternal. I do not believe a "for those who came in late" version of eternity is best termed as "eternity".

I see the point which is basically around the terminology of eternal. Given that terminology I can see there is an argument that eternal life is a misnomer.

However my main point was with your contention that


So some people get a longer eternity than others

I still think this is mistaken for the reasons mentioned. Sempiternal lifespans are the same length regardless of start time.

John777
10-05-2013, 02:45 PM
Are you also a chess player?

Yes correct, i learnt to play at age 10 and then have been reading chess books and studying the game since, and playing around with different chess programs is fun too, i have the chessgenius program which is pretty good, i have never beaten it yet though i have had some games with an advantage and i dont play tournaments at the moment and i dont have a rating at the moment. i also like playing chinese chess, chess variants and checker variants. If a game has strategy in it then i will have a go at it. Having fun at the moment in anycase.


When the Bible speaks of eternal life it is not extending it into the eternal past. Only the eternal future. Most famously, Jesus speaking in John 3:16.

i would say that eternal life goes from the time someone is saved until all of eternity as:

1 John 5:11 (KJV) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:13 (KJV) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

John 6:68 (KJV) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:12 (KJV) Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

As for John 3:16 i will show how it is different in different translations:

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This rendering in the KJV is right (i believe that the KJV is perfect, infallible, inerrant and inspired) See how this critical verse is changed by the Modern Bible Versions.

John 3:16 (New International Version ©2011) For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 (English Standard Version ©2001) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 (New Living Translation ©2007) For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

The problem is that the Modern Versions say that God has only one son which isn't true, God has only one begotten son who is the Lord Jesus Christ, the sons of God are Christians.

Romans 8:14 (KJV) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1 John 3:1 (KJV) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Philippians 2:15 (KJV) That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

John777
10-05-2013, 03:02 PM
Indeed. My idea of what eternity is is something without beginning in time and without end in time. So the idea that you could have this mortal life for a specific duration in time, and after that have an eternal life, would appear to be a contradiction.


According to Stanford:
It is usual to make the contrast clear by calling one of these ‘eternity’ or ‘atemporality’ and the other ‘sempiternity’ or ‘everlastingness'.

but i think with this "contradiction" that the soul or spirit is renewed in a person when they get saved and then that soul or spirit enters into eternity when they die in the flesh, so the flesh dies but the soul and spirit go on and on so they have eternal life in a saved person.

i'm not sure if what you believe is the same as the KJV Bible but i see that if you want eternal life according to the KJV Bible then you must be born again.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Desmond
10-05-2013, 03:54 PM
i'm not sure if what you believe is the same as the KJV Bible There may be some subtle differences. :lol:

but i see that if you want eternal life according to the KJV Bible I am yet to see anyone mak much of a case for why I should.

John777
10-05-2013, 04:12 PM
but i see that if you want eternal life according to the KJV Bible



I am yet to see anyone make much of a case for why I should.

i would say dont let other people determine what you believe or not, see what God says about eternal life in the KJV Bible for yourself, if your a genuine seeker it is the Spirit that will help you to understand the KJV Bible, this is not about looking for answers to everything but about where you will spend eternity? you may well want eternal life in heaven, the only way is by the shed blood and death of the Lord Jesus Christ for all your sins, you have to admit your a sinner needing a Saviour which may be hard to do but when you understand everyone is a sinner not so hard to do.

Kevin Bonham
10-05-2013, 04:38 PM
you may well want eternal life in heaven, the only way is by the shed blood and death of the Lord Jesus Christ for all your sins, you have to admit your a sinner needing a Saviour which may be hard to do but when you understand everyone is a sinner not so hard to do.

Is this meant to be a claim of fact or just a regurgitation of doctrine?

If the former, then even assuming one was to grant that there is an all-powerful deity and sufficient evidence for such (which I don't) the same problem still arises.

There is no way to use evidence of any kind to distinguish between an all-powerful deity that is of a particular kind and one that merely pretends to be. After all, the latter, being all-powerful, could deceive humans in any way that it likes.

Assuming there was an all-powerful deity, one could die and discover that the whole thing was just a joke or a gullibility test and that that deity had completely different ideas about who deserved a cushy afterlife than those that many Christians believe.

It's actually very presumptuous for humans to pretend they could know the will of a deity (even assuming one "existed") on the back of a bunch of religious scriptures and traditions and hazy reports of a supposed miracle from a very long time ago. Especially since if born into a different cultural tradition they would be likely to think they knew the will of a deity in a different way on the back of a different collection of grossly inadequate evidence.

Even if it was a confirmed miracle it would still be presumptuous.

(Apologies to regulars here who have heard all this before).

John777
11-05-2013, 10:44 AM
Is this meant to be a claim of fact or just a regurgitation of doctrine?

If the former, then even assuming one was to grant that there is an all-powerful deity and sufficient evidence for such (which I don't) the same problem still arises.

The Bible mentions people like yourself.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

There are natural things to look at and then there are spiritual things to look for.

i ask have you ever genuinely tried to seek for God?

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Desmond
11-05-2013, 11:21 AM
you may well want eternal life in heavenWhy would I want that? Why do you? What is good about it? Can you tell me what you intend to spend eternity doing, and how is that not going to become unbearable repetitive and boring throughout the eons, with no end in sight or chance of relief?

Kevin Bonham
11-05-2013, 01:23 PM
The Bible mentions people like yourself.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Now this is really quite interesting because the Bible as quoted by you is saying that there are people who cannot know God by their nature. And yet many strands of (in some sense) Bible-believing Christianity espouse that it is reasonable for God to punish people in the afterlife for not knowing God. For God to allow people to have a nature that precludes them knowing God, and then punish them for being of that nature, is morally indefensible.


i ask have you ever genuinely tried to seek for God?

That "genuinely" sounds like a fledgling "No True Scotsman".

I have never genuinely tried to seek for living dinosaurs, Lassiter's Reef, pirate treasure buried in my backyard, a person who is 140 years old, or an instant cure for all forms of cancer.

All of these things are so improbable that it would be a waste of time for me to seek them, and yet they could at least be finitely probable, which your Christian God to me is not. I add that even if I somehow "found" God I couldn't ever be rationally sure it was the real one anyway.

I have never genuinely tried to convince myself that something that is clearly absurd is true. Why would I do so?


Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

And this basically is the No True Scotsman. If someone seeks God and doesn't find it is explained post hoc that they were not looking properly. Those who are already disposed to belief believe but this says nothing for those who have no reason to be thus disposed.

John777
11-05-2013, 06:29 PM
Eternal life


Why would I want that? Why do you? What is good about it? Can you tell me what you intend to spend eternity doing, and how is that not going to become unbearable repetitive and boring throughout the eons, with no end in sight or chance of relief?

For a Christian in heaven i know the most part Christian will be praising God, there will be plenty of time to talk to other Christians and angels as well.

Revelation 21: (KJV)
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

This a description of this heaven.

Joy and pleasures?

Psalms 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Treasures?

Matthew 6:20, “But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.”

Jesus taught to lay up treasures in Heaven "where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal." Any wealth you may accumulate in this world is vulnerable.

Thankfully, they cannot touch heavenly rewards. This is exactly why Jesus told us to lay up treasures in Heaven. Notice that Jesus mentioned 3-culprits who rob our wealth:

1. Moths 2. Rust 3. Thieves

Rewards?

Luke 6:22-23, "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets."

Luke 6:35, "But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil."

The Soul Winner will be rewarded. 1st Corinthians 3:8, "Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour." God will reward us for our individual labors in the Lord. God doesn't reward us for the number of people who get saved; but rather, for the effort we put forth to get people saved. Our part is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ; it is God's part to convict lost sinners and save those who come to Jesus Christ.

Everything that one does as a Christian for the Lord Jesus Christ—soulwinning, doing good, helping the poor, lending without hope of return, teaching the Bible, contending for the faith, loving our enemies, passing out Bibles—will be greatly rewarded by God in eternity.

[i haven't heard angels complaining about heaven.]

Having said that there is also an eternal lake of fire that those in hell will be thrown into. There are many verses about hell. There are only 2 places that a person can spend eternity. That is the way it is. i hope having said this that you will carefully consider where you want to go, God certainly would want to see you in Heaven soon, but you have to get to Heaven through the Lord Jesus Christ's substitute for your sins, the blood and the death of the Lord Jesus has saved me from my sins and Jesus rose again from the dead, you need to believe on that. It is not as hard as you make it, God has made it easy because he wants as many souls as possible in Heaven. Take care.

Adamski
11-05-2013, 06:40 PM
The previous post is a very good one by John777, though mods may feel the need to snip some Scripture out. Rev 21 a great passage - in any translation.

Kevin Bonham
11-05-2013, 06:57 PM
Having said that there is also an eternal lake of fire that those in hell will be thrown into. There are many verses about hell. There are only 2 places that a person can spend eternity. That is the way it is.

Oh no it isn't. It's just the way you say it is because that is what is in the Bible and you seem to be having difficulty thinking about the issues involved at any level beyond believing what the Bible tells you - which actually isn't thinking at all, just following.

A God that threw people into the lake of fire for reasonably failing to believe in it would be an infantile, petty, vindictive being unworthy of moral admiration or worship. Especially if per 1 Corinthians 2:14 as quoted by you earlier they were "natural" men (or women) who were unable to know God.

And if your God is reserving space in the lake for "all liars" he had better find room for himself after intentionally deceiving Abraham.

Your God would be an all-powerful abomination so it is just as well that there is no reason to believe that it exists.

John777
11-05-2013, 06:57 PM
Now this is really quite interesting because the Bible as quoted by you is saying that there are people who cannot know God by their nature. And yet many strands of (in some sense) Bible-believing Christianity espouse that it is reasonable for God to punish people in the afterlife for not knowing God. For God to allow people to have a nature that precludes them knowing God, and then punish them for being of that nature, is morally indefensible.

Well the problem is sin. God cannot tolerate sin since He is Holy and Life. Holiness and Life is the opposite of Sin and Death. God cannot change Himself and neither will He ever change.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God the Father went to the love of sending His begotten Son the Lord Jesus to earth to take away the sins of mankind. It was Adam and Eve who sinned in the garden not God. However a person has to choose the Lord Jesus to be their Saviour, God has allowed people to have free will. Another verse in the Bible says that all things were created for God's pleasure. It is not possible for anyone to understand everything about God while on planet earth because sin has damaged the mind of people.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

You need to accept God the way He is, the clay cannot question the potter, when one resigns themselves to accepting God for what He does and not try to tell God what to do or think is humility (also a good attribute in the Bible).


All of these things are so improbable that it would be a waste of time for me to seek them, and yet they could at least be finitely probable, which your Christian God to me is not. I add that even if I somehow "found" God I couldn't ever be rationally sure it was the real one anyway.
I have never genuinely tried to convince myself that something that is clearly absurd is true. Why would I do so?

This is what God says:

Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Since the word of God is truth then i recommend reading the word of God to find the truth.



And this basically is the No True Scotsman. If someone seeks God and doesn't find it is explained post hoc that they were not looking properly. Those who are already disposed to belief believe but this says nothing for those who have no reason to be thus disposed.

God does not force anyone to follow Him, He waits for you to make the first move once a person can reason about the world around them.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

However God the Father can draw people to Himself

John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And the creation proves that there is a God.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Kaitlin
11-05-2013, 06:59 PM
Ask the Sybile

John777
11-05-2013, 07:08 PM
Oh no it isn't. It's just the way you say it is because that is what is in the Bible and you seem to be having difficulty thinking about the issues involved at any level beyond believing what the Bible tells you - which actually isn't thinking at all, just following.

And Jesus said to follow Him

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


A God that threw people into the lake of fire for reasonably failing to believe in it would be an infantile, petty, vindictive being unworthy of moral admiration or worship. Especially if per 1 Corinthians 2:14 as quoted by you earlier they were "natural" men (or women) who were unable to know God.

every person has opportunity to know God (except infants and other cases) 1 Cor 2:14 is talking about people that dont know God, they could know if they wanted to.

The reason that people go into the lake of fire is because they have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ who is God Himself!

i also say that God is just, He goes by justice. We are the creation He is the Creator.


And if your God is reserving space in the lake for "all liars" he had better find room for himself after intentionally deceiving Abraham.
Your God would be an all-powerful abomination so it is just as well that there is no reason to believe that it exists

?

i dont believe that God deceived Abraham.

Kevin Bonham
11-05-2013, 07:11 PM
Well the problem is sin. God cannot tolerate sin since He is Holy and Life.

What rubbish. If sin is such a problem, God has the power to cause humans to not be sinful and the ability to exercise it. By allowing people to be "sinful" at all, your God if it existed would be tolerating sin.

And in any case "sin" is a vast copout in which it is assumed that God damaged everyone in retaliation for disobedience by Adam and Eve - which itself even if true would be more evidence that your God was an unjust tyrant.


You need to accept God the way He is, the clay cannot question the potter,

And there is plenty of clay that occurs naturally and was not made by a human potter but that would be particularly deluded clay if it started assuming that a human potter made it. So, lousy analogy.

I can question your nonexistent deity and your absurd scriptural defence of it all I like!


Since the word of God is truth then i recommend reading the word of God to find the truth.

You have presented no evidence that the "word of God is truth" and indeed no such evidence is possible.

You have also presented no evidence that you know the word of God.


God does not force anyone to follow Him,

Well yes, because God does not exist. But apart from that, threatening someone with hellfire is coercion, force and intimidation by any normal understanding of the concept. And exactly that has been used to attempt to force people to conform, and you are still attempting it.


And the creation proves that there is a God.

No it doesn't. Just because the scripture you cite could only come up with that explanation doesn't mean it is necessary or sound.

Kevin Bonham
11-05-2013, 07:21 PM
every person has opportunity to know God (except infants and other cases) 1 Cor 2:14 is talking about people that dont know God, they could know if they wanted to.

But because they are "natural" men(/women) it is not in their nature to want to. So the idea that they could "know" is silly, since if they did want to "know" they would not be as they are. To say that a person has an opportunity to know something, when that opportunity could only be exercised by a person who is different, is absurd.


The reason that people go into the lake of fire is because they have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ who is God Himself!

What rubbish. If there could somehow be a God you would have no more way than I of knowing who was going there or whether the Bible was a true indication of our fates.


i also say that God is just, He goes by justice. We are the creation He is the Creator.

Empty twaddle.


?

i dont believe that God deceived Abraham.

Well a non-existent being can deceive no-one, but he did according to your Bible. He caused Abraham to believe that it was God's intention that Abraham sacrifice his son, when this was not actually God's intention.

We had a previous discussion of this at various points on the thread Joshua's Long Day (http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=9264)

Your God is a deceiver and liar, who by your own scriptures is headed for the Lake of Fire!

Given the sort of treatement he will encounter if he attempts to exist in my vicinity he should consider that punishment lenient.

John777
11-05-2013, 08:16 PM
Kevin Bonham

Your problem is not with me it is with God and the word of God.

i have given you some scriptures to mull over. It would be foolish of me to continue to give scripture to you if you have already rejected it.

My belief according to the word of God is that all people will have to give account of themselves to God one day.

Where you stand with God is in your court.

i hope you make the right decisions i really do

John

Desmond
11-05-2013, 08:52 PM
For a Christian in heaven i know the most part Christian will be praising God, there will be plenty of time to talk to other Christians and angels as well. Yes "plenty" is one way of putting it.


Revelation 21: (KJV)..Yeah those digs sound swell.

I don't know about you but when I check into a pretty nice hotel I'm impressed by it for a little while but pretty soon I'm looking for something to do. Who knows, maybe it's so breathtaking you might spend a hundred years marveling at it. Not really a dent into an everlasting life I wouldn't have thought.


Joy and pleasures?

Psalms 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore. Pretty vague.


Treasures?

Matthew 6:20, “But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.”So stuff doesn't need repairing. That's even less to do.


Rewards?Again, pretty vague. What are you going to be doing?


[i haven't heard angels complaining about heaven.]I haven't heard dolphins complaining about riding their broomsticks around the sun.


Having said that there is also an eternal lake of fire that those in hell will be thrown into. Well I wish you lot would get your story straight. Am I just going to be dead or am I going to be alive (everlastingly?) but just in a different part of town.

Rincewind
11-05-2013, 09:37 PM
Well I wish you lot would get your story straight. Am I just going to be dead or am I going to be alive (everlastingly?) but just in a different part of town.

If you haven't already you should read Heinlein's Job: A Comedy of Justice. It is slow in parts but overall it is a good read and it has a lot of jokes about heaven and hell reminiscent of the discussion under way here.

Desmond
11-05-2013, 10:50 PM
If you haven't already you should read Heinlein's Job: A Comedy of Justice. It is slow in parts but overall it is a good read and it has a lot of jokes about heaven and hell reminiscent of the discussion under way here.I'll have to check it out.

Kevin Bonham
12-05-2013, 12:58 AM
Your problem is not with me it is with God and the word of God.

You have not shown that there is any God or any word of God for me to have a problem with. But my problem is with you to the extent that you consider I am going to Hell if I don't follow your religion. Now this is not a very nice thing to think about someone you don't know - and since it carries an insinuation that I am making a very serious error in my thinking, I am entitled to think the worse of you for saying it. Especially since you show hardly any signs of even being able to think for yourself instead of just following scripture.

Let me make it clear: it is both intellectually and "morally" unacceptable to assert that someone will go to Hell just for not believing in God. It is an offensive and repulsive doctrine, no more acceptable than racism and deserving nothing but contempt.


i have given you some scriptures to mull over.

And I have demonstrated contradictions in them immediately. Good for you.


My belief according to the word of God is that all people will have to give account of themselves to God one day.

Where you stand with God is in your court.

If your God even attempts to exist around me it will be the one that's in the dock and that needs to give account of itself. I have to say it's an especially pitiable specimen of the God concept so I wouldn't like its chances.


i hope you make the right decisions i really do

Rubbish; you don't know me, your care for me is fake. But of course you want me to conform because it is quite inconvenient for your extremely silly views if people like me don't.

John777
12-05-2013, 08:37 PM
Well I wish you lot would get your story straight. Am I just going to be dead or am I going to be alive (everlastingly?) but just in a different part of town.

Well your spirit/soul has to go somewhere because when God created you He put in a eternal spirit/soul in you and there are only two place to go when a person dies Heaven or Hell. Hell is full of torment, Heaven is full of joy and pleasures.
Now to get to Heaven is only possible by the blood and death of the Lord Jesus Christ as payment for your sins, please accept that and pray to God about making a serious decision so that you will be in Heaven seeing God, the angels and me there.


I don't know about you but when I check into a pretty nice hotel I'm impressed by it for a little while but pretty soon I'm looking for something to do. Who knows, maybe it's so breathtaking you might spend a hundred years marveling at it. Not really a dent into an everlasting life I wouldn't have thought.

Stop questioning about Heaven being boring it wont be!!! Jesus never said that heaven was boring.

Desmond
12-05-2013, 09:02 PM
Well your spirit/soul has to go somewhere because when God created you He put in a eternal spirit/soul in you Not that I've seen anything to suggest this is the case, but giving you the benefit of the doubt I expect it will go with my body into the ground. Anyway it's not me you need to convince, oopsy was telling me that the ultimatum was between death or heaven - you're saying it's heaven or hell. Surely between the two of you you can sort this out which it is and help me make an informed decision.



Stop questioning about Heaven being boring it wont be!!! Jesus never said that heaven was boring.Argument from silence.

Oepty
12-05-2013, 09:34 PM
Well your spirit/soul has to go somewhere because when God created you He put in a eternal spirit/soul in you and there are only two place to go when a person dies Heaven or Hell. Hell is full of torment, Heaven is full of joy and pleasures.
Now to get to Heaven is only possible by the blood and death of the Lord Jesus Christ as payment for your sins, please accept that and pray to God about making a serious decision so that you will be in Heaven seeing God, the angels and me there.



Stop questioning about Heaven being boring it wont be!!! Jesus never said that heaven was boring.

Humans beings are not immortal. The Bible clearly says when a person dies they know nothing.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The unbelievers are no different to the beasts. Psa 49, all of it really but in particular,

Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.

20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

Also Isaiah 26:14 where these princes are being described as being totally destroyed so that they will never live again, will not be resurrected. It is all over for them

Isa 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.



On the day of pentecost Peter spoke about King David.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

So faithful David is not in heaven with God, he did not go to anywhere, he was and still is dead and buried awaiting the resurrection.

But it was not only David who has not received immortal life, it is all the faithful in Hebrews 11.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

And in 1 Thessalonians Paul even had to comfort the Thessalonians that those that were dead would not be disadvantaged compared those who where alive at Jesus' return to the earth.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The word prevent in verse 15 means precede.

So it is quite clear that man does not go to heaven or hell straight after they die, David has not gone to heaven, nor has Moses, Noah, Samuel, Rahab, Abraham, Abel, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph etc.

Oepty
12-05-2013, 09:41 PM
Not that I've seen anything to suggest this is the case, but giving you the benefit of the doubt I expect it will go with my body into the ground. Anyway it's not me you need to convince, oopsy was telling me that the ultimatum was between death or heaven - you're saying it's heaven or hell. Surely between the two of you you can sort this out which it is and help me make an informed decision.


Argument from silence.

I never said the ultimatum was between death or heaven.

The choice is between eternal death (total unconsciousness, no awareness, no nothing) and living for ever. The living for ever will be on earth. Earth will be transformed to be like heaven. As the Lord's prayers says,
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

And so it will be when Jesus is king over the whole earth.

John777
12-05-2013, 09:43 PM
Humans beings are not immortal. The Bible clearly says when a person dies they know nothing.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The unbelievers are no different to the beasts. Psa 49, all of it really but in particular,

Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.

20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

Also Isaiah 26:14 where these princes are being described as being totally destroyed so that they will never live again, will not be resurrected. It is all over for them

Isa 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.



On the day of pentecost Peter spoke about King David.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

So faithful David is not in heaven with God, he did not go to anywhere, he was and still is dead and buried awaiting the resurrection.

But it was not only David who has not received immortal life, it is all the faithful in Hebrews 11.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

And in 1 Thessalonians Paul even had to comfort the Thessalonians that those that were dead would not be disadvantaged compared those who where alive at Jesus' return to the earth.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The word prevent in verse 15 means precede.

So it is quite clear that man does not go to heaven or hell straight after they die, David has not gone to heaven, nor has Moses, Noah, Samuel, Rahab, Abraham, Abel, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph etc.

Thanks for digging into the verses, what about Abraham's bosom where Lazarus was? And what about transfiguration of Elijah and Moses on top of the mount? i think that them 2 came from heaven.

Oepty
13-05-2013, 05:19 PM
Thanks for digging into the verses, what about Abraham's bosom where Lazarus was? And what about transfiguration of Elijah and Moses on top of the mount? i think that them 2 came from heaven.

Abraham's bosom is a parable in which Jesus used the false beliefs of some of the Jews to condemn there unfaithfulness.

I am not entirely sure about Elijah and Moses, however I think whatever happened has to be consistent with what is said at the end of Hebrews 11 that I quoted. I cannot see how them being in heaven fits with what is said there or else where in the Bible

Hobbes
13-05-2013, 05:57 PM
Is eternal life a good idea?

As long as the modern gods get the details right:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithonus

Desmond
19-05-2013, 07:54 PM
0Fdb16Om40E

Adamski
20-05-2013, 12:22 AM
I did enjoy the movie Ground Hog Day. But in heaven every day will be different! I mean some people will be reigning over cities, others over nations, all under God. It won't be boring!

Desmond
20-05-2013, 07:58 AM
I did enjoy the movie Ground Hog Day. But in heaven every day will be different! I mean some people will be reigning over cities, others over nations, all under God. It won't be boring!
Sounds interesting for a hundred years or so. What about the next trillion trillion trillion?

Kevin Bonham
20-05-2013, 05:23 PM
I mean some people will be reigning over cities, others over nations, all under God.

What would you supposedly need people reigning over each other for in heaven?

Adamski
21-05-2013, 12:50 AM
What would you supposedly need people reigning over each other for in heaven?In the words of a popular song, heaven is a place on earth. Some of mankind's reign on the earth is introduced in Genesis, mentioned throughout the Old Testament, discussed by Jesus in the Gospels, by Paul in the Epistles, and repeated by John in the Bible's final chapters in Revelation. A "crown" in the Bible speaks of ruling authority.

Consider the following example verses from one portion of Scripture - Revelation 2-5:

Rev 2:10; 2:26; 3:11; 3:21; 4:10; 5:9-10.

Who does God say will reign? In Rev 5:9-10, people of every tribe and language and people and nation. Where will they reign? ON EARTH, not in some intangible heavenly realm. Where on earth? Likely with people of their own tribe, language and nation - cultural distinctives that we're told still exist on the New Earth (Rev 21:24, 26; 22:2). To answer Kevin's question, not everyone in the New Earth will be Christian believers. Those who are will rule over those who are not.

All things will eventually be subject to the Christian believers under the kingship of Jesus Christ. This will fulfill God's original plan to have everything and everyone in the worldsubject to the human beings that he had made. In this sense, the believers will inherit the earth (Matt 5:5) and reign over it as God originally intended.

The best book I have come across on this is Heaven, by Randy Alcorn.

Desmond
21-05-2013, 08:19 PM
In the words of a popular song, heaven is a place on earth. I am sorry to break it to you but the Earth will not exist forever, the Sun will burn out and take us with it. No doubt a few billion years in timescale was far beyond the imaginations of the bronze age savages who dreamed it up, but a far cry from eternity.

Ian Murray
21-05-2013, 09:01 PM
I am sorry to break it to you but the Earth will not exist forever, the Sun will burn out and take us with it. No doubt a few billion years in timescale was far beyond the imaginations of the bronze age savages who dreamed it up, but a far cry from eternity.
Worst case scenario - the sun could go red giant as soon as half a billion years off, although five billion years seems more likely. You should mark both dates on your calendar.

Capablanca-Fan
21-05-2013, 10:55 PM
I am sorry to break it to you but the Earth will not exist forever, the Sun will burn out and take us with it. No doubt a few billion years in timescale was far beyond the imaginations of the bronze age savages who dreamed it up, but a far cry from eternity.
This evolutionary picture is hardly news to Adamski, as well as the eventual heat death of the universe, cf. The Future: Some issues for ‘long-age’ Christians (http://creation.com/the-future-some-issues-for-long-age-christians). The Bible also says that the current heaven and earth will not last forever.

Redmond Barry
21-05-2013, 11:06 PM
In the words of a popular song, heaven is a place on earth.

I didnt realise that Belinda Carlisle had influenced christianity so much. Next time i here "Leave a light on" i'll think of Jesus.

Does Cyndi Laupers "Girls just wanna have fun" have any religious relevance ?

"Wuthering Heights" by Kate Bush perhaps ? :hmm:

Adamski
21-05-2013, 11:29 PM
This evolutionary picture is hardly news to Adamski, as well as the eventual heat death of the universe, cf. The Future: Some issues for ‘long-age’ Christians (http://creation.com/the-future-some-issues-for-long-age-christians). The Bible also says that the current heaven and earth will not last forever. Yes. I think they missed the point that it will be a New Earth, not the current one. They should read Revelation chapter 21

Adamski
21-05-2013, 11:31 PM
I didnt realise that Belinda Carlisle had influenced christianity so much. Next time i here "Leave a light on" i'll think of Jesus:
It just so happens that what is often called "heaven" will actually be on the New Earth. Belinda's song just missed out the new bit.

Kevin Bonham
21-05-2013, 11:39 PM
Belinda Carlisle is now a Buddhist. What religious views if any are held by Rick Nowels and Ellen Shipley (who actually wrote the song) is unknown to me but given the wide range of heathens Mr Nowels has written for I doubt his intentions were biblical.

Rincewind
21-05-2013, 11:54 PM
Does Cyndi Laupers "Girls just wanna have fun" have any religious relevance ?

In a discussion on sempeternal life wouldn't "Time after time" be the go-to song?

Desmond
22-05-2013, 06:48 AM
It just so happens that what is often called "heaven" will actually be on the New Earth. Belinda's song just missed out the new bit.So what you are saying is that non-Christians will be teleported to this heaven/new Earth anyway. I can get to heaven without being Christian - this is great news! What was the advantage of being Christian again? You get to spend your eternity worshiping while others get to spend it on other activities?

Would you say that the New Earth's sun would need to be eternal?

Desmond
22-05-2013, 07:09 AM
This evolutionary picture is hardly news to Adamski, as well as the eventual heat death of the universe, cf. The Future: Some issues for ‘long-age’ Christians (http://creation.com/the-future-some-issues-for-long-age-christians). The Bible also says that the current heaven and earth will not last forever.
Didn't God supposedly make the Earth to be Adam's eternal playpen? Maybe non-perpetual stars can be blamed on The Fall too. :rolleyes: :hand:

Capablanca-Fan
22-05-2013, 08:51 AM
Didn't God supposedly make the Earth to be Adam's eternal playpen?
The above was talking about a post-Fall world which is subject to eventual disintegration.


Maybe non-perpetual stars can be blamed on The Fall too. :rolleyes: :hand:
Stars are not nephesh chayyah, so are not included in the things that die because of the Fall.

Desmond
22-05-2013, 02:37 PM
The above was talking about a post-Fall world which is subject to eventual disintegration.


Stars are not nephesh chayyah, so are not included in the things that die because of the Fall.Before The Fall would nuclear fusion of a finite amount of hydrogen into helium take a finite amount of time or an infinite amount of time?

William AS
22-05-2013, 11:59 PM
So what you are saying is that non-Christians will be teleported to this heaven/new Earth anyway. I can get to heaven without being Christian - this is great news!
Not at all sure it is great news. :rolleyes: The heaven of many of these 'believers' is much closer to my idea of hell. :(

Those who are in a rush to get to Heaven as quickly as possible are a major worry for the vast majority of people.

A heaven which includes paedophiles, mass murders, rapists, thieves and con-artists because all they have to do to get there is stand up in Church and say praise be unto the Lord, God is great, please forgive me o Lord, and all is forgiven and they can go to Heaven with the rest of us. :doh:

I have no desire to be in that place.

Adamski
23-05-2013, 03:56 PM
So what you are saying is that non-Christians will be teleported to this heaven/new Earth anyway. I can get to heaven without being Christian - this is great news! What was the advantage of being Christian again? You get to spend your eternity worshiping while others get to spend it on other activities?
Nope. I never said that everyone goes to heaven/ New Earth. Those who fail God's just judgment will go to hell I just said there would be people on the New Earth who would be ruled over. Hell is a state of eternal separation from God - dark and very hot. Not somewhere I would like myself or any of my friends and family to go to.

Desmond
23-05-2013, 04:28 PM
Nope. I never said that everyone goes to heaven/ New Earth. Those who fail God's just judgment will go to hell I just said there would be people on the New Earth who would be ruled over. Hell is a state of eternal separation from God - dark and very hot. Not somewhere I would like myself or any of my friends and family to go to.
What judgement? According to you, one does not even have to be a "Christian-believer" to make the cut.


not everyone in the New Earth will be Christian believers. Those who are will rule over those who are not.

Adamski
23-05-2013, 04:52 PM
God will judge people on the basis of what they have heard about Jesus. Some eho have heard nothing about Jesus will therefore "make the cut".I will leave it there for now since it is chess night I need to think about the 64 squares.

Desmond
23-05-2013, 05:38 PM
God will judge people on the basis of what they have heard about Jesus. Some eho have heard nothing about Jesus will therefore "make the cut".Getting into heaven without being absolved of their sin?

jammo
23-05-2013, 09:40 PM
God will judge people on the basis of what they have heard about Jesus. Some eho have heard nothing about Jesus will therefore "make the cut".I will leave it there for now since it is chess night I need to think about the 64 squares.

So logically the best outcome would be if no-one had heard of Jesus other than his close personal friends so they could all then go to heaven. All those missionaries to the New World were doing the natives a mis-service by telling them about Jesus. Now it all makes sense.:)

Desmond
23-05-2013, 10:08 PM
So logically the best outcome would be if no-one had heard of Jesus other than his close personal friends so they could all then go to heaven. All those missionaries to the New World were doing the natives a mis-service by telling them about Jesus. Now it all makes sense.:)
Perhaps there are ochlophobian missionaries out there, intentionally spreading the word but doing a half-assed job at it. That way people can't say they never heard of J-Dawg, but the argument was presented so poorly they weren't convinced. Should keep most of the riff-raff out.

On the other hand it seems that God didn't really think the whole eternity thing through, what being limited by the lifespan of a star and all. So maybe a few bil years wouldn't be so bad, after all it's not like it's eternity or anything.

Who knows maybe Scientology had it right all along, and after New Sun is about to consume New Earth a few billion years down the track, a big spaceship will show up to take the people with gold stickers on their chests off to New Earth II. Should be pretty swell and all, just don't leave anything behind, could be long trip.


ozii0pLFzm8

Capablanca-Fan
23-05-2013, 10:53 PM
So logically the best outcome would be if no-one had heard of Jesus other than his close personal friends so they could all then go to heaven. All those missionaries to the New World were doing the natives a mis-service by telling them about Jesus. Now it all makes sense.:)
That indeed is a logical problem for some views about "those who have never heard", but not for mine. My view of "those who have never heard" is as follows:
People do not go to Hell because they have never heard, but because they are sinners. Romans 1:18–28 points out that some truth about God is obvious (in the heart) from creation, so that people are ‘without excuse’. Romans 2:14–16 says that people also have a conscience, and don’t even live up to their own standards, let alone God’s. Thus Romans 10:14–15 shows the urgency of Christian missionary work, so that people can know about the One who can take the punishment they deserve, as the Apostle explained in the preceding verses. The answer is instead of questioning God’s justice as atheopaths do (despite not believing in Him in the first place), they should realize “Shall not the God of all the earth do right” (Genesis 18:25). Christians should be spreading the message until everyone has heard.

John777
24-05-2013, 09:20 PM
That indeed is a logical problem for some views about "those who have never heard", but not for mine. My view of "those who have never heard" is as follows:
People do not go to Hell because they have never heard, but because they are sinners. Romans 1:18–28 points out that some truth about God is obvious (in the heart) from creation, so that people are ‘without excuse’. Romans 2:14–16 says that people also have a conscience, and don’t even live up to their own standards, let alone God’s. Thus Romans 10:14–15 shows the urgency of Christian missionary work, so that people can know about the One who can take the punishment they deserve, as the Apostle explained in the preceding verses. Christians should be spreading the message until everyone has heard.

That is a good answer, i'll say that where isolated people have rejected God they pass that rejection onto their children so that over time a whole tribe then nation are into witchcraft/atheism etc and have lost the plot unless someone brings them the truth from somewhere.

Kevin Bonham
24-05-2013, 09:30 PM
There should be a religion in which the only people who go to Hell are people who tell other people they're going to Hell.

Oepty
30-05-2013, 09:29 PM
There should be a religion in which the only people who go to Hell are people who tell other people they're going to Hell.

You could start it.

Adamski
31-05-2013, 07:54 AM
That is a good answer.Agreed. Well expressed Jono Yes it does show the importance of missionary work and evangelism throughout the world.

John777
31-05-2013, 07:40 PM
Hey see this one:

Chick Tract: Missionaries are fools

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkWAxnsjEV0&list=PLmcdEZ69dkjxTqzbaY5rbQJadPqTbdS0l

Adamski
31-05-2013, 10:23 PM
Hey see this one:

Chick Tract: Missionaries are fools

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkWAxnsjEV0&list=PLmcdEZ69dkjxTqzbaY5rbQJadPqTbdS0l
Actually the story in China is nowhere near so bleak. There is a huge and thriving underground Church there.

Also, literature is not the only thing needed. Just as urgent is audio material so that people HEAR the gospel. (Faith comes by hearing - Romans 10:17.) Mission agencies such as Global Recordings network (GRN) are trying to address that need.

John777
01-06-2013, 09:15 PM
Actually the story in China is nowhere near so bleak. There is a huge and thriving underground Church there.

Also, literature is not the only thing needed. Just as urgent is audio material so that people HEAR the gospel. (Faith comes by hearing - Romans 10:17.) Mission agencies such as Global Recordings network (GRN) are trying to address that need.

are you working with GRN?

Adamski
02-06-2013, 12:04 AM
are you working with GRN?
No, but I do have friends who work for GRN. GRN is doing an important work.

littlesprout85
02-06-2013, 12:42 AM
ERmmmmm,

Adamski's is thinking that hell is a dark hot place..... Meh Thinking Thats ARizonA at night...........

-Sprout85 =)

John777
03-06-2013, 05:11 PM
Actually the story in China is nowhere near so bleak. There is a huge and thriving underground Church there.


Christians Persecuted And Tortured In China

How does atheism bring about more freedom?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2AESx5u6yMw

Kevin Bonham
03-06-2013, 06:01 PM
Christians Persecuted And Tortured In China

How does atheism bring about more freedom?

Any cases like this have nothing to do with "atheism" and everything to do with one-party communist-derived statist illiberal regimes that are incidentally atheist.

Support for such regimes among western atheists is low.

Capablanca-Fan
04-06-2013, 02:50 PM
[QUOTE=Kevin Bonham]Any cases like this have nothing to do with "atheism" and everything to do with one-party communist-derived statist illiberal regimes that are incidentally atheist.]/QUOTE]
It's hardly incidental. Atheism is foundational to communism, hence their persecution of the church.

Rincewind
04-06-2013, 03:55 PM
It's hardly incidental. Atheism is foundational to communism, hence their persecution of the church.

Cuba is a secular communist state with large number of christians and a significant Jewish population as well.

Kevin Bonham
04-06-2013, 11:27 PM
Atheism is foundational to communism, hence their persecution of the church.

Not at all necessarily. There are even Christian communists, and communism doesn't follow from atheism in any way (no matter what some silly marxists have thought otherwise). Of course, religions that do not accept communism are a threat to illiberal state communism and are also a tempting target since they often own substantial property and wealth.

John777
05-06-2013, 04:33 PM
There are even Christian communists, and communism doesn't follow from atheism in any way (no matter what some silly marxists have thought otherwise).

That is interesting that you use the term "Christian communists" i have not met any unless they are hiding out somewhere. Lessons from the 20th century tell me that Communists are atheists.

Rincewind
05-06-2013, 05:11 PM
That is interesting that you use the term "Christian communists" i have not met any unless they are hiding out somewhere. Lessons from the 20th century tell me that Communists are atheists.

Go to Cuba. About half the population are Christian communists.

Kevin Bonham
05-06-2013, 07:37 PM
That is interesting that you use the term "Christian communists" i have not met any unless they are hiding out somewhere.

This is just the usual thing: you don't move in the same circles they do, so you don't meet them, so you don't realise they exist. Google "Christian communists" and you can find loads of information on the subject. (A note of caution though: a small minority of the links, like this one (http://carrington.wikia.com/wiki/Christian_Communist_Party), refer to fictional worlds.)


Lessons from the 20th century tell me that Communists are atheists.

No, you just misinterpret those lessons that way because the most prominent communist regimes happen to have also been atheist. There is no necessary connection between the two - and indeed Christian communists would argue that their religious views and communism are strongly compatible. Of course their idea of Christianity is likely to differ from yours.

Capablanca-Fan
08-06-2013, 05:20 AM
Go to Cuba. About half the population are Christian communists.
Most doubtful. It can't be an accident that Marx and Engels and their leading disciples Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, and Pol Pot were strident atheopaths. You should love them.

Rincewind
08-06-2013, 11:14 AM
Most doubtful.

No you are wrong. It is a simply a matter of fact.

See the 2009 Report on International Religious Freedom - Cuba (http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2009/127386.htm)

Which states


The country has an area of 68,888 square miles and a population of 11.4 million. There was no independent authoritative source on the size or composition of religious institutions and their membership. The Roman Catholic Church estimates that 60 percent of the population is Catholic. Actual membership in Protestant churches is estimated at 5 percent and includes Baptists, Pentecostals, Seventh-day Adventists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), and Lutherans. Other groups include Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Baha'is, and members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons).

Furthermore regarding societal respect for religious freedoms the report states


There were no reports of societal abuses or discrimination based on religious affiliation, belief, or practice. However, the growth of small unregistered Pentecostal and charismatic congregations created divisions among Protestant groups.

Not all of it is positive of course but a clearly a significant proportion of Cubans are Christian as claimed.

Capablanca-Fan
08-06-2013, 01:25 PM
No you are wrong. It is a simply a matter of fact.
No it's not. Your link below said nothing about whether these religionists claimed to be Commies.

Rincewind
08-06-2013, 01:41 PM
No it's not. Your link below said nothing about whether these religionists claimed to be Commies.

Are you claiming greater than 65% of the population of Cuba are not Communist?

Capablanca-Fan
09-06-2013, 01:13 AM
Are you claiming greater than 65% of the population of Cuba are not Communist?
Evidently. Do you think Cuba's communism is there by democratic vote? Then why are there no free elections?

Rincewind
09-06-2013, 02:39 AM
Evidently.

By what evidence?

jammo
09-06-2013, 07:44 PM
How does atheism bring about more freedom?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2AESx5u6yMw

Easy. Atheists don't have to waste their time going to church, praying, reading the bible and generally obeying God. They are free to do whatever they like.

Capablanca-Fan
10-06-2013, 01:21 AM
Easy. Atheists don't have to waste their time going to church, praying, reading the bible and generally obeying God. They are free to do whatever they like.
Including commit mass murder. After all, what is murder but one piece of rearranged pond scum stopping certain chemical reactions in another piece of rearranged pond scum? Atheopath Stalin said that purges of his political opponents and Kulaks were no worse than cutting the blades of grass on his lawn.

Desmond
10-06-2013, 08:02 AM
Including commit mass murder. After all, what is murder but one piece of rearranged pond scum stopping certain chemical reactions in another piece of rearranged pond scum? Atheopath Stalin said that purges of his political opponents and Kulaks were no worse than cutting the blades of grass on his lawn.
Coming from the guy who hasn't found a gun crime he didn't like.

Capablanca-Fan
10-06-2013, 12:58 PM
Coming from the guy who hasn't found a gun crime he didn't like.
What are you on about now? My reasons for supporting gun ownership by law abiding people is to deter gun crimes. Your idea would leave only criminals with guns.

Adamski
10-06-2013, 03:42 PM
Easy. Atheists don't have to waste their time going to church, praying, reading the bible and generally obeying God. They are free to do whatever they like.
That is licence rather than freedom and naturally leads to selfish living.

John777
10-06-2013, 07:35 PM
Atheists don't have to waste their time going to church, praying, reading the bible and generally obeying God. They are free to do whatever they like.

Yet are in bondage to sin and are in for a big surprise when they stand naked before a living and very powerful God.

Desmond
10-06-2013, 08:16 PM
Yet are in bondage to sin and are in for a big surprise when they stand naked before a living and very powerful God.
Translation if you don't believe in my delusion then it will punish you.

Desmond
10-06-2013, 08:30 PM
That is licence rather than freedom and naturally leads to selfish living.
pursuing a perceived chance at an afterlife sounds about as selfish as you can get.

Kevin Bonham
10-06-2013, 09:30 PM
That is licence rather than freedom and naturally leads to selfish living.

Actually it naturally leads to whatever the person holding the belief wishes it to lead to, which can be selfishness, altruism and all points in between.

Recently on this forum I paid tribute to two of my friends in the chess community who have died. One was an atheist and the other effectively so (although he was technically a deist he considered himself free from any constraints of religious or spiritual morality). Both were very generous people who did a great deal to help others in the chess community (in one case despite being of limited financial means.) I knew a great deal of the moral views of one of them and although he constantly defended the right to be selfish he was also very moralistic about many issues.


Yet are in bondage to sin and are in for a big surprise when they stand naked before a living and very powerful God.

If I am ever in any danger of standing naked before your pitiable and decrepit specimen of the God concept then I'd like an infinite supply of diuretics (preferably caffeinated, alcoholic or both) to ensure I can respond accordingly for all eternity. Nudity would of course be a benefit since I would hardly want to waste the effort of unzipping my trousers on such a feeble specimen of godhood.

It could just as easily be said that you are in for a big surprise, except you will be far too dead to notice it.

antichrist
07-07-2013, 01:30 PM
Yet are in bondage to sin and are in for a big surprise when they stand naked before a living and very powerful God.
Does God wear clothes? Is it an error by God that we are required to where clothes where as other creatures do not have to? Does God get a thrill by see girls naked before him? Did Jesus when on Earth get Randy? The autoformat made the previous Randy capital r - how funny!

Desmond
14-08-2014, 08:25 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/10612860_10152353370857057_6708738029912432969_n.j pg