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Kevin Bonham
09-11-2011, 12:23 AM
This one appeared on the Toolbox and I initially thought the solution was pretty neat then thought "hang on ..."

So the situation - it is a blitz game, you are black, you have 20 seconds and your opponent has plenty of time and is rated in the 1700s. I'll assume there's no increment although I don't know this for sure.

I suggest when you've scrolled down to see the position, take half a minute or so familiarising yourself with it without calculating anything; after all in a real game you're not starting cold in looking at a position. Then give yourself a timed 15 seconds and see what you can come up with (after all you'll still have to make some more moves, though you may well be able to think on your opponents' time and play them instantly).

Interested to see what people come up with. Please post suggestions in white text or post and then immediately delete.

Board appears in next post (scroll down).









































...

Kevin Bonham
09-11-2011, 12:24 AM
Black to play

k1r4r/1p3p1p/2qQ2p1/2n2b2/5PN1/P1P4P/1P3N2/K2R3R b - - 0 1

antichrist
09-11-2011, 12:30 AM
knight checks twice, second time being taken by rook, then queen checks on white diaginal and maybe mate with bishop assistance

antichrist
09-11-2011, 12:32 AM
may be an extra white pawn move and take by black that does not stop the mate

antichrist
09-11-2011, 12:37 AM
the mate could take a few more moves

Kevin Bonham
09-11-2011, 12:42 AM
AC I think you might have used up your 20 seconds. :lol:

antichrist
09-11-2011, 12:59 AM
AC I think you might have used up your 20 seconds. :lol:
but usually being in superior time position I probably sneaked in, if I could pick up the correct combo in that much time without knowledge of preceding game thinking then not too bad for someone virtually not playing chess

good point re S bend by the way, if not chessplayer then limited non topic participation

Mr. Pawn
09-11-2011, 06:22 AM
Nb3+ Ka2 Qc4 with Nc1 and Qa2/b3#

With a bit of 1 minute practise lately this took me 3-5 seconds

Jay
09-11-2011, 09:07 AM
changed to white

Rincewind
09-11-2011, 09:31 AM
1... Nb3 2.Ka2 Qc4 with the threat of Nc1 is what I would play with that much time. However 3.Qd5 provides adequate defence from mate for white. But 20 seconds I cant see a better try so just take the draw.

Vlad
09-11-2011, 11:28 AM
Sounds like Rincy got it right, what was the point of this exercise?

Rincewind
09-11-2011, 11:41 AM
what was the point of this exercise?

I'm guessing but perhaps it has something to do with finding defensive resources for the opposition? In that sort of position I would often lose on time because of checking sacrificial defensive lines for white which don't work and are probably a waste of time compared to exploring simple defensive moves like covering key ranks, files and diagonals or creating flight squares.

Kevin Bonham
09-11-2011, 08:36 PM
OK, the position was posted by Amir on the Toolbox and in this position he forced a draw with an idea nobody has posted in the correct form (though AC saw the start of it) 1...Nb3+ 2.Ka2 Nc1+ 3.Ka1 Nb3+ etc since the knight cannot be taken or the queen is lost (and with c. 20 seconds and queen for piece up in that position black really should be able to mate.)

Now that is actually quite a neat point to see in a club-level blitz game but as I noticed (and Mr. Pawn and Rincewind also noticed though only Rincewind found the defence) 1.Nb3+ 2.Ka2 Qc4 is actually better. This forces white to find the only move Qd5 or lose, and in blitz it's possible white (even with lots of time) might miss it. If white does find Qd5 there is still the forced draw anyway.

Incidentally after looking at the position a long time the computer thinks 1...Qf3 is black's best, but it isn't with 20 seconds on the clock.

antichrist
09-11-2011, 10:13 PM
I have just woken up and not in mood for working out anythng, but could there be a mate the way I was going - just ignoring capuring the queen?

Kevin Bonham
09-11-2011, 10:17 PM
I have just woken up and not in mood for working out anythng, but could there be a mate the way I was going - just ignoring capuring the queen?

If white plays b3 there won't be. If he plays Ka1? instead there might be although he can still stop it, eg Be6, b3 Qxb3, c4! and he can afford to give up a rook for bishop since he is a piece up.

antichrist
09-11-2011, 11:59 PM
As FG7 stated:

Nb3 Qc4 Nc1 he needs a double check:

AC
Does FG's accessment hold up?

Kevin Bonham
10-11-2011, 10:31 AM
As FG7 stated:

Nb3 Qc4 Nc1 he needs a double check:

AC
Does FG's accessment hold up?

It's incomplete information because he doesn't discuss the white move between Qc4 and Nc1. As pointed out by Rincewind if that move is Qd5 then white draws, otherwise white loses.

Rincewind
10-11-2011, 11:33 AM
If white does find Qd5 there is still the forced draw anyway.

Personally, in blitz (5min + 0s/move) (in which I am weak relative to my standard rating) I would be much happier to take the forced after the Qc4 line than to play the immediate Nc1+ even if White responds Rxc1. In the second line I would win the queen but would not be confident of converting that to a mate in less than 20 seconds. If it was Fischer blitz (3min + 2s/move) then I would be happy to win the queen and the +2s/move should provide enough time to win.

FM_Bill
04-01-2015, 08:52 PM
With 15 seconds left, its enough to see ..Nb3+, Ka2 Qc4 threatens disco check and there are no other checks and white cannot mate. To see more means you are taking too long.

antichrist
06-01-2015, 09:46 PM
what is disco check pls?

Adamski
06-01-2015, 10:04 PM
what is disco check pls?Discovered check!

antichrist
07-01-2015, 12:15 PM
Discovered check!

there is a disco check chess engine hence the confusion

James Peirce
01-04-2015, 09:55 AM
2870
Black to play and win quickly, white has just played a2-a4
There is probably more than one way to do this
(It was a 5 min game)