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S-word
06-11-2011, 04:36 PM
Who here believes in the Big Bang theory and the Big Crunch Theory.
I personally believe that there was no begining of the universe and It was sort of a circle with loops going on for ever. E.g. THe big bang is caused by the energy in the previouse big crunch and the big crunch is caused when the universe expands to a point that it collapses on it self and so on and so on.

Then you believe as many religious bodies all over the world, have believed by faith for thousands of years.

Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds seems as an eternity. ‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the generations of the universe.

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Abraham,” or “these are the generations of Adam, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe, etc.

And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which there is neither hours, days, weeks, months, or years, for at time is stuck togeter in one aeon.

A day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not acheive perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

The first day, or rather the first generation of the universe as we know it today, was only Light. Massive first generation stars and evening descended when those stars imploded in upon themselves and were condensed back into the infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity of origin, which singularity, would later be spatially separated once again and the second generation of the universe would come into existence etc.

They were looking at a series of worlds following one upon the other,-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. Every universe from the first to the last, from the smallest to the greatest, which have been created throughout the aeons of eternity, still exist in their independent Space-Time positions within the eternal and boundless cosmos.

The New international Version, the Scofield Referrence Bible, and the Companion Bible, all note that the phase in Genesis 1: 2; The earth was formless and void (Having neither shape or mass) should be correctly translated, “The earth became without form and void.” The Hebrew word “Hayah” translated “was,” means “To become, occur, come to pass, Be.” (Vines Complete Expository of Old and New Testament Words, 1985. “To Be.”)

"Brahman," the root of which originally meant speech, which is much the same as "The Logos" is interpreted to mean "Word," But neither Brahman or the Logos, which are the genetic information gathered from all previous universal bodies, can be expressed as the spoken word, but they are expressed in the re-creation, or resurrection of the universal body, from which that information had been gathered.

To the Hindus, "Braman" is the divine reality of the universe; the invisible and eternal spirit from which all being originates and to which all returns at the close of each cycle of universal activity, and at the close of this cycle of universal activity, Krishna, the eighth manifestation of Vishnu the saviour, will enter into Brahman as the supreme personality of Godhead to that universal body, which had evolved from the singularity of it's origin.

Kevin Bonham
06-11-2011, 09:22 PM
Then you believe as many religious bodies all over the world, have believed by faith for thousands of years.

Actually it is very likely to be different. There are a lot of mistakes made when people try to equate provisional belief in scientific concepts with religious faith. Firstly among people of "faith" there are a couple of quite different ideas of what "faith" is and that debate has been had on this site a few times before - the original conception of "faith" is supposed to be one that is (supposedly) based on evidence rather than just so-called "blind faith". However the latter seems to be how many lay believers use the term - belief that is not subject to evidence and that even persists in spite of troubling questions about it.

Secondly either kind of "faith" seems to be very different in nature to merely holding a belief about a scientific concept. There seems to be a notion of loyalty involved, or an emotional commitment to the thing being believed in. While that may be also the case with some people's beliefs on scientific matters, it is not safe to assume it is.

S-word
07-11-2011, 06:53 AM
Actually it is very likely to be different. There are a lot of mistakes made when people try to equate provisional belief in scientific concepts with religious faith. Firstly among people of "faith" there are a couple of quite different ideas of what "faith" is and that debate has been had on this site a few times before - the original conception of "faith" is supposed to be one that is (supposedly) based on evidence rather than just so-called "blind faith". However the latter seems to be how many lay believers use the term - belief that is not subject to evidence and that even persists in spite of troubling questions about it.

Secondly either kind of "faith" seems to be very different in nature to merely holding a belief about a scientific concept. There seems to be a notion of loyalty involved, or an emotional commitment to the thing being believed in. While that may be also the case with some people's beliefs on scientific matters, it is not safe to assume it is.

John 20: 29; Jesus said to him, (Doubting Thomas) "Do you believe because you see me? How happy are those who believe (In the resurrection of the dead) without seeing me."

It is by faith that I believe in the resurrection of the universal body in which the Godhead that develops within that body, is the "LIGHT OF MAN," the spirit that develops/evolves within and from the body of the Most High in the creation, "Mankind, who is Lord of creatures."

In the beginning was the Word and the word was with and was God, in him was life, and that life was the Light of man, all the wisdom, knowledge, and insight that had been gathered from the body of man.

In the beginning was the "Logos" which is the all the information gathered from all the generations of this universal body that have all lived and died and been resurrected to continue on the eternal process of growth/evolution.

The information that is gathered through the senses of your body, is "YOU," the invisible spirit/mind, that is evolving/growing in the three dimensional womb that was created from the animated universal elements, which elements are merely the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the trillions of degrees at the moment of the Big Bang.

The quantum of that electromagnetic energy, is the invisible wave particles that are in reality, not particles at all as they have zero mass and no electric charge, and yet, they carry linear and angular momentum, and it is from the gathering, or attraction to each other of those wave particles that this universal body is created, and the momentum of that quantum of electromagnetic energy, pervades and animates all within the universal body, which is the physical representation of the cosmic cloud of invisible wave particles that we perceive as the universe.

That information gathered through the senses of your body (Logos) from which "YOU" the mind/spirit has been created, you can express in words or your creations.

But the information/Logos within the three dimensional universal body of corruptible matter, that had been re-converted to invisible incorruptible energy in another dimension before space and time came into existence with the Big Bang, is not expressed in words, (God did not speak the universe into existence).

But the "Light of Man" who was the supreme personality of the previous universal body of which, the universal elements had spontaniously combusted and disappeared, was the observer who said, Let there be light, as he watched/observed the "Logos" the invisible information, express itself as another three dimensional body in the image and likness of the universal body that had descended into the seemingly bottomless pit, in which universal body, the Godhead to the previous body, gathers the spirits of man, from which his Sons are created.

And "Who I Am," the Son of Man who came down into this world, said unto Abraham, "In blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying, I will multiply you."

Jesus was the first to be raised from the dead past of the "Son of Man," Jesus was the first fruits to be gathered from the resurrected body of mankind, the first of the elect ones who were chosen before this world began; and Jesus our brother who was born of the flesh in the same manner as you and I were, was Born, the first of God's Sons, not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the spirit of our Lord God and Saviour which descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased. "This Day" I have begotten thee." see the more ancient authorities of Luke 3: 22; before they were changed by the church of the non-christian Constantine in 325 AD, some three hundred years after the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ was established in Jerusalem.

Kevin Bonham
07-11-2011, 08:15 PM
The information that is gathered through the senses of your body, is "YOU," the invisible spirit/mind, that is evolving/growing in the three dimensional womb that was created from the animated universal elements, which elements are merely the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the trillions of degrees at the moment of the Big Bang.

No, the information that is gathered through the senses of the body is just information. There is no evidence to justify equating it with any of that other stuff or even that some of that other stuff exists.

S-word
07-11-2011, 09:51 PM
No, the information that is gathered through the senses of the body is just information. There is no evidence to justify equating it with any of that other stuff or even that some of that other stuff exists.

So, what you are saying, is that the brain of a new born baby, which brain is empty and in which the tree of nuropeptides had not begun to grow, which baby begins to learn it's motor skills by observing its hand in motion and after a period of time, and many, many, attempts, is eventually able to consciously move its hand toward an object and pick it up, as opposed to instinctivly grasping a finger that is placed in its palm.

Do you really expect anyone, even the most naive person on this forum, to believe that the mind is not conceived by the information that is taken in through the senses of the body and contiues to grow/develop/evolve on the information that is taken in through the senses of that body.

Animals below the primates, are in the main, born with all the information needed for their survival. Hatch an egg from any species of bird or reptile, in an incubator, and it will instinctivly follow all the animal insticts, which have been gathered over the generations.

If its parents migrate each year, it will migrate to the exact same place as its parental species moves to, without having to be taught or to follow the others. Humans are not like that, they are born, mindless, and separated from the parental ancestral spirit, that dwells behind the veil to the inner most sanctuary of his tent/tabernacle, which is their body. They have to learn over many, many years how to commicate with their inner mind and become one with "Who They Are," who is connected to the beginning by an eternal genetic thread of Life that has not been broken for over 13 billion years.

Then of the Thee in Me who works behind
The Veil, I lifted up my hands to find
A lamp amid the Darkness; and I heard,
As from without---"The Me in Thee is blind.....Omar Khayyam.

Let me assure you dear friend, a baby born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste or touch, will remain a mindless lump of living meat, which may be kept alive for a period of time, but no person, no personality, no intellect, no mind, no godhead, will ever develop in that lump of unconsciouse squirming living meat. Stand in front of it, and it will not be conscious of your presence, put you finger in it's mouth and it will neither feel nor taste it, and will not be conscious of that finger, Blow your breath on it's face, and it will neither feel the wind nor smell your breath, it will remain unconscious until it is returned to the universal elements from which the inner information had created it.

Kevin Bonham
07-11-2011, 10:21 PM
So, what you are saying, is that the brain of a new born baby, which brain is empty

Hmmm, I wouldn't be so sure about that one. But anyway what you are asking if I'm saying had no relation whatsoever to what I actually said.


Do you really expect anyone, even the most naive person on this forum, to believe that the mind is not conceived by the information that is taken in through the senses of the body and contiues to grow/develop/evolve on the information that is taken in through the senses of that body.

I expect several of the least naive people on this forum to agree with me (whether they say so or not) that "mind" (when used as if referring to a distinct property) is often not a useful conception. An individual does develop knowledge, memory, experience, cognitive abilities (etc) but to suggest that an individual in so doing develops a thing called "mind" from scratch is a recipe for confusion.


Animals below the primates, are in the main, born with all the information needed for their survival.

Firstly this is false; learning from experience can be demonstrated in a very wide range of species including some invertebrates. Secondly your use of "animals below the primates" itself suggests an outdated notion of evolutionary theory in which it is assumed the primates are some kind of pinnacle of the process with everything else being a lead-up to the introduction of our good selves. We now know that rather than specific creatures being above and below others in this manner, different groups of creatures represent different departures from a common shared ancestry. Branching is an analogy sometimes used, although it is not actually as simple as that.


If its parents migrate each year, it will migrate to the exact same place as its parental species moves to, without having to be taught or to follow the others.

Just because the instruction to attempt to migrate is genetically innate doesn't mean the migrating individual will perform the whole migration effectively without any use of intelligence.

S-word
08-11-2011, 05:54 AM
Hmmm, I wouldn't be so sure about that one. But anyway what you are asking if I'm saying had no relation whatsoever to what I actually said.



I expect several of the least naive people on this forum to agree with me (whether they say so or not) that "mind" (when used as if referring to a distinct property) is often not a useful conception. An individual does develop knowledge, memory, experience, cognitive abilities (etc) but to suggest that an individual in so doing develops a thing called "mind" from scratch is a recipe for confusion.



Firstly this is false; learning from experience can be demonstrated in a very wide range of species including some invertebrates. Secondly your use of "animals below the primates" itself suggests an outdated notion of evolutionary theory in which it is assumed the primates are some kind of pinnacle of the process with everything else being a lead-up to the introduction of our good selves. We now know that rather than specific creatures being above and below others in this manner, different groups of creatures represent different departures from a common shared ancestry. Branching is an analogy sometimes used, although it is not actually as simple as that.



Just because the instruction to attempt to migrate is genetically innate doesn't mean the migrating individual will perform the whole migration effectively without any use of intelligence.

The point that you're missing there, is that they are all born with the mind inherited from their parents, in other words, all the information that has been gathered over past generations, that is needed for their survival.

And yes, they can learn to do new things, because they too have the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch, through which more information can be added to their mind, and which can be past on as inherant information to their future generations, this is how evolution works.

There is one particular scavenger bird in Africa, which is born with the inherant knowledge to take the bone of a dead animal and carry it up to a height from where it drops it onto a hard surface, where it is shattered, and it then has access to the bone marrow: other birds, such as hawks, see this and attempt to imitate those inherent actions, but do not have the mental capacity to work out that the bone has to hit a rock or other hard surface in order to shatter.

After taking the bone up and dropping it onto the soft ground time after time, they eventually give up and go in search of a bone that still has some meat on it.

Have you ever seen a new born kangaroo, crawl up from the birth opening to the pouch where it locks onto the teat, where it remains until the growth process is completed and it can then leave the pouch. Try leaving a new born human baby to find its own way to the milk supply, an ability that all other mamals are born with. A human baby is not even born with the motor skills to sit up, let alone stand up, these all have to learn, by information that is taken in through the senses of their body, Oh they can move and even sometimes roll over, but that is involuntary movement, (Involuntary=performed without conscious willing/unintentional.)

But we are straying too far of the original topic, if you wish to believe that "YOU" the mind/spirit, could have evolved within that body, if it had been born without the physical senses, then by all means remain in that belief.

Hobbes
08-11-2011, 08:11 AM
The point that you're missing there, is that they are all born with the mind inherited from their parents, in other words, all the information that has been gathered over past generations

Think you might have this confused with the Bene Gesserit.

S-word
08-11-2011, 08:24 AM
Think you might have this confused with the Bene Gesserit.

I fail to see how you believe that I have somehow confused the evolution of the species by the gathering of information through the senses of all the generation of that species and the previous species from which each evolved, with the religious group and Mother Superior of Frank Hererts SF "Dune universe," but then I am not familiar with his work, neither do I yet know, just how that mind that is "YOU," who has evolved from all the information taken in through the senses of that body, thinks.

Kevin Bonham
08-11-2011, 08:42 PM
The point that you're missing there, is that they are all born with the mind inherited from their parents, in other words, all the information that has been gathered over past generations, that is needed for their survival.

That's nonsense. Just because some animal behaviours are preprogrammed doesn't mean your sharp distinction that implies that all the necessary information is programmed is valid. For instance, many animals learn to hunt by watching their parents; they don't know how to do it instinctively. And also in the case of humans, while humans are far more dependent on learning (and need to do far less for themselves because of their parents' capacity to help them) than many other animals, human babies still have some "instinctive" behaviours, such as suckling and crying.


There is one particular scavenger bird in Africa, which is born with the inherant knowledge to take the bone of a dead animal and carry it up to a height from where it drops it onto a hard surface, where it is shattered, and it then has access to the bone marrow: other birds, such as hawks, see this and attempt to imitate those inherent actions, but do not have the mental capacity to work out that the bone has to hit a rock or other hard surface in order to shatter.

You are referring to the lammergeier, or bearded vulture. Rather than being an innate skill, the ability to drop bones for food is a learned skill developed through practice and taking years to master. As for the other birds I suspect that their problem is not that they can't understand that the bone has to smash, but more that after trying it a few times they find it to be all too hard.


But we are straying too far of the original topic, if you wish to believe that "YOU" the mind/spirit, could have evolved within that body, if it had been born without the physical senses, then by all means remain in that belief.

If you wish to believe that I believe that then by all means stay deluded.

S-word
08-11-2011, 09:43 PM
That's nonsense. Just because some animal behaviours are preprogrammed doesn't mean your sharp distinction that implies that all the necessary information is programmed is valid. For instance, many animals learn to hunt by watching their parents; they don't know how to do it instinctively. And also in the case of humans, while humans are far more dependent on learning (and need to do far less for themselves because of their parents' capacity to help them) than many other animals, human babies still have some "instinctive" behaviours, such as suckling and crying.



You are referring to the lammergeier, or bearded vulture. Rather than being an innate skill, the ability to drop bones for food is a learned skill developed through practice and taking years to master. As for the other birds I suspect that their problem is not that they can't understand that the bone has to smash, but more that after trying it a few times they find it to be all too hard.



If you wish to believe that I believe that then by all means stay deluded.

Start a new thread if you wish to continue to try and substansiate your erroneous belief that MIND can be conceived and then continue to evolve, in a body that has no senses through which to gather information into the brain. For this subject has gone too far off the topic, "The Big Bang Theory."

Kevin Bonham
08-11-2011, 09:56 PM
Start a new thread if you wish to continue to try and substansiate your erroneous belief that MIND can be conceived and then continue to evolve, in a body that has no senses through which to gather information into the brain. For this subject has gone too far off the topic, "The Big Bang Theory."

You were the one who dragged the thread off-topic, firstly with your irrelevant insinuation that a poster who held beliefs about the Big Bang was believing in a religious-like manner, and then with your even more irrelevant waffle about senses of the body, mind/spirit etc.

As such I have moved the whole discussion started by you and retitled it accordingly. I do hope you will learn your lesson and not attempt any back-seat moderation around here in the future. :lol:

Also if you continue repeating blatant and nonsensical strawmanning of my views even after I have pointed out your error, expect the strawmanning to be removed.

S-word
08-11-2011, 10:42 PM
You were the one who dragged the thread off-topic, firstly with your irrelevant insinuation that a poster who held beliefs about the Big Bang was believing in a religious-like manner, and then with your even more irrelevant waffle about senses of the body, mind/spirit etc.

As such I have moved the whole discussion started by you and retitled it accordingly. I do hope you will learn your lesson and not attempt any back-seat moderation around here in the future. :lol:

Also if you continue repeating blatant and nonsensical strawmanning of my views even after I have pointed out your error, expect the strawmanning to be removed.

No I don't mind you renaming the thread, nor do I mind that you locked off my new thread, this is the way of those who believe that they hold some sort of power over others whose questions they cannot answer.

Others who read these threads will know who is right and who is wrong, they will not be deceived into [overrepeated strawmanning deleted as warned - KB]

Kevin Bonham
08-11-2011, 10:52 PM
No I don't mind you renaming the thread, nor do I mind that you locked off my new thread, this is the way of those who believe that they hold some sort of power over others whose questions they cannot answer.

Evidently I do hold some sort of power over you as concerns this particular forum; obviously there are many others you can waffle on (and already do) where I hold no power beyond that conveyed by the law of the land. However it's nothing to do with me being unable to answer your questions - the problem is that when I answer your questions you pretend my answers say something utterly different from what I actually said, and you do a similar thing to other posters. It is hard to tell whether this is trolling or simply fanaticism on your part.

antichrist
08-11-2011, 11:38 PM
This guy could at least pepper up his burden with a few choice analogies like I do - cause life has to have fun now matter what, who, when or where

He reminds me of those 24 hour Christian broadcasting stations - their weaknesses are power,sex and money - S word I am beginning to become suspicious what that S denotes

Kevin Bonham
09-11-2011, 12:27 AM
S word I am beginning to become suspicious what that S denotes

I wondered that too. I hope it isn't something boring like "spirituality". I did wonder if "S-word" was a pun on "sword".

S-word
09-11-2011, 06:20 AM
I wondered that too. I hope it isn't something boring like "spirituality". I did wonder if "S-word" was a pun on "sword".

Then wonder no more.

Elijah, who was carried up to stand by Enoch’s side
Stood by the brook at Kishon where the priests of Baal all died
It was He, who gave the order and the waters all ran red
As fifty and eight hundred more, false prophets all fell dead.
Will you fight the war ‘gainst ignorance, the war that will be won
By those who wield the S-word of God, the sharp two edge-ed tongue….By S-word.

When one stands up for the truth, they should expect to be attacked from all sides. Those who call themselves christians, who love to wallow in the ignorance of the virgin "daughter-wife" of their god, who was born of the (According to them), same spirit, who spawned her son, which is both, "his grandson and son," as they pray to the 'Daughter/wife of their father god,' and mother to the son of her father, who they have carried bodily up to heaven and placed in the throne that they themselves have created, and placed upon her head the crown of co-redemptress of the body of man.

Then also those of the godless religion of the so-called atheists, who feel threatened once they realise that you have come with the truth. That a higher MIND than that of man, has evolved within the eternal cyclic universal body. A MIND far, far, greater than the World Wide Web of information.

As that MIND , is the Supreme Personality of Godhead to the creation, the spirit that has evolved within the body of Mankind, "the Most High" in the creation and who is Lord of creatures: and He, who is fed on all the information gathered through the senses of the body of the Most High in the creation, who has access to all the information gathered from all the human bodies who dwell within Him, "The Son of MAN," is the Most High among the spiritual godheads to the creatures that are lower than man on the ladder of creation. Spalms 82:1; Our God presides in the heavenly council, in the assembly of the gods he gives his decisions.

Those who will choose to pick up the Sword of God, can expect to be insulted, by filty sarcastic harmless tongues, and threatened to be kicked out of their Godless assemblies, which is the only weapon that they have against the truth.

And now my friend, come soar with me
To the outer limits of reality
This universe, though wide it seems
Is but the shadow of our dreams
We are nought but knowledge in these tents
Refined through pain and punishment
We're the hive of man and neath His rod
We are one, we're the Son of God.
The past, the present, the future is He
He was, He is, and He will be
And heaven is but a point in time
To where the spirit in man must climb
Eventually when He's there at last
And stands and gazes on His past
And takes the throne prepared in heaven
Then all His past will be forgiven.
I am who I am, the die is cast
For I was created by my past
And we who we are this very day
Determines His future in every way.
If my past were changed, then who would I be?
One thing is certain, I wouldn't be me......... By S-word.

Kevin, I'm still waiting for you to prove that [strawmanning nonsense deleted again-KB]

Prove to us Kevin, that [more strawmanning nonsense deleted]

Kevin Bonham
09-11-2011, 10:18 AM
Then also those of the godless religion of the so-called atheists,

Atheism is not a religion as has been pointed out here many times before. For starters it has no ritual/worship component.

I think the real reason your views get attacked from all sides is that they are idiosyncratic even by religious standards, and generally rather poorly argued (though I can't vouch for the quality of your arguments as concerns disputes with other religious folk as they really haven't interested me to this point.)

gambiteer
09-11-2011, 12:39 PM
When one stands up for the truth, they should expect to be attacked from all sides

This might explain why atheists get attacked ;)

Think that your claims are peerless by attacking those who share your bible and attacking those who don't,

Credit to whoever came up with this title, seems appropriate.

antichrist
10-11-2011, 10:03 AM
Then wonder no more.

Elijah, who was carried up to stand by Enoch’s side
Stood by the brook at Kishon where the priests of Baal all died
It was He, who gave the order and the waters all ran red
As fifty and eight hundred more, false prophets all fell dead.
Will you fight the war ‘gainst ignorance, the war that will be won
By those who wield the S-word of God, the sharp two edge-ed tongue….By S-word.

..............

this guy believes in mass murder for heretics - he belongs to Inquisition times, what a throwback