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Kevin Bonham
22-09-2004, 02:06 AM
This has crept up on us, I can hardly believe it's only four days away - the first world title match with even a vague glimmer of credibility for four long years!

Official site (http://www.worldchesschampionship.com/com/home/news/index.php)

Games 25, 26, 28, 30 Sep, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 Oct. Leko white game 1.

Time limit: 40/120 followed by 20/60 followed by all in 15/+30 (+30 secs per move after move 60 only.)

Games start at 3pm Swiss time which I believe is 11pm AEST (hmm, another thing to keep me up all night just when I was getting back to going to bed at a more respectable 3-4am).

Odds on site: Kramnik 1.7, Leko 3.85, Tie 4.7

Rincewind
25-09-2004, 04:51 PM
11pm tonight! Can't wait.

BTW the banner across the top of the web page at

http://www.worldchesschampionship.com/com/index.php

is a bit off putting. The boards on either side look to be at least 9 if not 10 ranks in size and there are no white pieces on the black side and vice versa. Also the white king would seem to be on the wrong side. Still, you can't have everything I suppose.

The odds are currently

Kramnik 1.72
Draw 4.7
Leko 3.85

Which looks to have only a 5.4% margin for the bookie which is quite reasonable. If you factor this out you get

Kramnik 1.81
Draw 4.95
Leko 4.06

Garvinator
25-09-2004, 05:11 PM
so, are we going to give our predictions for the whole match and each game?

Kevin Bonham
25-09-2004, 08:49 PM
The odds are a bit harsh on Leko given his recent good form and the long history of mostly draws between these two. I'm predicting Kramnik to win by one game with a scoreline of +2=11-1.

Garvinator
25-09-2004, 09:11 PM
The odds are a bit harsh on Leko given his recent good form and the long history of mostly draws between these two. I'm predicting Kramnik to win by one game with a scoreline of +2=11-1.
i just wish for a decently played game won by either player in the first couple of games. That should ensure some exciting games and not a drawathon.

Kevin Bonham
25-09-2004, 09:49 PM
i just wish for a decently played game won by either player in the first couple of games. That should ensure some exciting games and not a drawathon.

Should. Didn't work in Kasparov-Kramnik though, but Kasparov was behaving a bit oddly through that match.

Kevin Bonham
25-09-2004, 10:59 PM
First game doesn't start til 11:45 so you have another 45 mins if you want to post a match prediction before the horses are locked away. :D

Garvinator
25-09-2004, 11:05 PM
i predict kramnik win +3 =10 -1

Rincewind
25-09-2004, 11:15 PM
First game doesn't start til 11:45 so you have another 45 mins if you want to post a match prediction before the horses are locked away. :D

This game and the next will be draws.

Rhubarb
25-09-2004, 11:30 PM
Game's started as at 11:25.

I predict Leko +3 =9 -2.

Rhubarb
26-09-2004, 12:56 AM
Looks like Leko has a difficult decision to make on move 25.

If he tries to make a passed a-pawn with 25.Qxa7 c5 26.Qxb7 he runs the risk of being worse.

If he just plays 25.Rd1 it's hard to see how anything but a draw could result.

Kramnik may well have made this assessment before he allowed the long forcing sequence with 18.c4.

(Disclaimer: non-engined assessments by me so they could be up the 'fritz'.)

Garvinator
26-09-2004, 12:57 AM
leko kramnik have made it passed move 25 and look like they might play on :owned: is this a view to the future, we can only hope :D

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2004, 12:59 AM
They had a sign on the game viewer saying it wouldn't start til 3:45 their time then started 20 mins earlier than that. Not sure what was going on there.

Move 26 at present. Interesting stuff.

Rhubarb
26-09-2004, 01:09 AM
They had a sign on the game viewer saying it wouldn't start til 3:45 their time then started 20 mins earlier than that. Not sure what was going on there.

Maybe they were running late and estimated a starting time but then they found out they were running 20 minutes less late?



Move 26 at present. Interesting stuff.
Yes, Leko went for the most interesting line - this is a really difficult position!

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2004, 01:11 AM
(Disclaimer: non-engined assessments by me so they could be up the 'fritz'.)

I don't think Fritz would understand this position very well.

The white pawn actually looks a bit more dangerous than the black one to me.

Bill Gletsos
26-09-2004, 01:11 AM
Given how fast Kramnik has played it all looks like preparation on his part.

Rhubarb
26-09-2004, 01:16 AM
I don't think Fritz would understand this position very well. Quite right, it's the sort of position that could confound both silicon and carbon.


The white pawn actually looks a bit more dangerous than the black one to me.
Yes, but Leko has to make it count. Kramnik has one more bit he can use to focus on weaknesses. Leko has no get-out by giving up an exchange, either, as for example Q+3 versus RR+3 is very close to winning for Black.

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2004, 01:17 AM
Leko is an hour behind on the clock and this isn't going to be simple. Amazing how little time Kramnik has used.

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2004, 01:20 AM
Fritz reckons White is +0.8 with 27.Ra2 but fiddling around with some lines that can easily go up the other way if Black makes slight mistakes.

Rhubarb
26-09-2004, 01:23 AM
Given how fast Kramnik has played it all looks like preparation on his part.
Yes, an hour ahead now. I don't know when it left theory but I'd be pretty impressed if Kramnik had prepared this. It's also possibkle he was calculating on Leko's time.

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2004, 01:27 AM
28.Re2 is very interesting now - I wonder if Leko will play it.

Garvinator
26-09-2004, 01:41 AM
28.Re2 is very interesting now - I wonder if Leko will play it.
he did

Rhubarb
26-09-2004, 01:46 AM
Just searched my database (thankfully without crashing my crappy computer with so many browsers open). It's a year out of date but there's half a dozen top-level games from 2002 and 2003 with the immediate 16.c4 instead of Leko's (new?) 16.h3, which looks to be a useful waiting move, knowing that he has tactics to combat ...Na5-c4.

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2004, 02:16 AM
Just searched my database (thankfully without crashing my crappy computer with so many browsers open). It's a year out of date but there's half a dozen top-level games from 2002 and 2003 with the immediate 16.c4 instead of Leko's (new?) 16.h3, which looks to be a useful waiting move, knowing that he has tactics to combat ...Na5-c4.

16.h3 was first played by Kramnik(!!) in November 2003 and has since been played by Timman, Shirov and Leko (against Bologan). Leko-Bologan was the only previous game with 16...Be4. 17...Na5 is new. (This is all through chessbase).

My computer's not so much crappy as elderly, but I have the same sorts of problems. I'm also struggling with the game window being just slightly too large for my screen or system (doesn't quite fit to the bottom of the screen). Not sure if this is a screen size issue or a software one.

The coverage hasn't been too good so far - times only in whole minutes (and even then not continually updating reliably - keep having to refresh.) The live commentary doesn't always come up and when it does it keeps refreshing to the bottom before I have time to scroll through whatever I've missed.

Rhubarb
26-09-2004, 02:27 AM
16.h3 was first played by Kramnik(!!) in November 2003 and has since been played by Timman, Shirov and Leko (against Bologan). Leko-Bologan was the only previous game with 16...Be4. 17...Na5 is new. (This is all through chessbase).

Yes, I'm not surprised that 16.h3 has been played in the last year. I tried to check the CB online database for the latest but IE's rooted on my machine now that I've moved to Firefox and Firefox keeps asking for bloody plug-ins, which I don't have the bandwidth to spare at the moment!


The coverage hasn't been too good so far - times only in whole minutes (and even then not continually updating reliably - keep having to refresh.) The live commentary doesn't always come up and when it does it keeps refreshing to the bottom before I have time to scroll through whatever I've missed.

I was about to post exactly the same! I only just noticed the live commentary at the bottom so I kept trying to scroll up to see what they had to say earlier but the freaking thing keeps refreshing every 5 seconds. You can't even copy the bloody thing into the buffer!!

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2004, 03:16 AM
Leko's panicked and given up the exchange in time trouble. But now the a-pawn is going to die and it's just going to be Q+3P vs RR+3P which, as Greg mentioned, is not very good for White. (Actually it's surprising how often the player with the queen wins those in practice but that's in games involving lesser mortals.)

The coverage is getting worse now - really slow on refreshing, sometimes taking minutes. :evil: :evil: :evil:

Rhubarb
26-09-2004, 03:21 AM
Leko's panicked and given up the exchange in time trouble. But now the a-pawn is going to die and it's just going to be Q+3P vs RR+3P which, as Greg mentioned, is not very good for White. (Actually it's surprising how often the player with the queen wins those in practice but that's in games involving lesser mortals.)
but I guess this one's a draw - Leko's h-pawn'll provide enough counterplay in time.

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2004, 03:28 AM
I haven't been able to get any moves since 37. Not sure if my computer was having memory problems from running it and Fritz as well. Going to restart it and see if that helps.

Rhubarb
26-09-2004, 03:43 AM
I haven't been able to get any moves since 37. Not sure if my computer was having memory problems from running it and Fritz as well. Going to restart it and see if that helps.
I've been periodically closing the live game viewer and then reclicking on the live link from the "LIVE MATCHES - Tournament Overview" page. It's seems to refresh OK that way.

Rhubarb
26-09-2004, 03:52 AM
Leko's 42.Qh6 is completely incomprehensible to me - I thought his plan was to play h5-h6 at the appropriate time b4 Kramnik takes the a-pawn and starts ganging up on the k-side pawns. (Still looks like a draw though.)

Rhubarb
26-09-2004, 04:48 AM
I haven't been able to get any moves since 37.

OK, I got to move 43 but now it's completely unresponsive for half an hour.

The perennial paradox of modern online chess coverage: we can hardly complain because it's free, but every new broadcaster seems overwhelmed by the traffic they receive.

P.S> It's back online at 4:45am! Kramnik still has chances to win but the pawn structure isn't favourable.

Rhubarb
26-09-2004, 05:40 AM
Kramnik goes 1 up!

Leko really capitulated under the pressure, but he has the strength to come back and he's probably still finding his feet. Let's hope he doesn't go 'full shields up' as Kramnik can play the waiting game better than anyone.

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2004, 05:50 AM
I couldn't get any moves for about half an hour either and by the time I got back on it was all over.

Very interesting. Looks like Leko bit off more than he had time to think about. It will be interesting to see why Leko decided to go into the Q/RR ending, whether he just panicked or whether inaccuracies had already weakened his position to the point where he had little choice (or maybe it was never all that good to begin with.)

Kramnik wasn't afraid of complications in that game but 1-0 up in a relatively short WC match and with tie odds, I reckon he might go into stodge mode for a while and make Leko make the running.

Garvinator
26-09-2004, 10:35 PM
Is game two on tonight, i think i have read the website correctly which says it is.

Bill Gletsos
26-09-2004, 10:38 PM
Thats my understanding.

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2004, 10:56 PM
Yes, game 2 is about to begin. The dates for games are given in my first post in this thread - usually there's a day between them but the first two are back to back.

Bill Gletsos
26-09-2004, 11:06 PM
They play every Saturday, Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday.

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2004, 11:34 PM
The commentator is saying it's a totally new position after 11.Ng5. I am surprised they are off the rails so early, if this is so - especially in the Spanish.

Also interesting that this is the second game in a row where one has played down a line that has been played recently by the other.

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2004, 11:41 PM
They play every Saturday, Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday.

That copies the schedule from Kasparov-Kramnik (except the match is 2 games shorter). Each player always gets the same colour on the Sunday and that was criticised at the time because Kasparov was considered to be disadvantaged (I think because he did not get a rest before some of his black games whereas Kramnik always did).

If there is anything in that then Kramnik has that again and it was a good toss to lose - but maybe the Kasparov camp were making excuses.

Garvinator
26-09-2004, 11:43 PM
That copies the schedule from Kasparov-Kramnik (except the match is 2 games shorter). Each player always gets the same colour on the Sunday and that was criticised at the time because Kasparov was considered to be disadvantaged (I think because he did not get a rest before some of his black games whereas Kramnik always did).

If there is anything in that then Kramnik has that again and it was a good toss to lose - but maybe the Kasparov camp were making excuses.
i do remember this criticism being made during the kaspa- kram match and it appears to be a very valid concern to me. Dont know why they just dont have the games two days apart for each day?

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2004, 11:52 PM
After Black's 13th:

Not saying Kramnik's all that much better yet but I just love having this kind of position with White (and I get this sort of thing a lot, mostly out of Spanish 4 Kts type lines). I'll watch Leko's play with interest to see how a quality opponent defends against White's central control and hints of kingside pressure.

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2004, 11:55 PM
i do remember this criticism being made during the kaspa- kram match and it appears to be a very valid concern to me. Dont know why they just dont have the games two days apart for each day?

My guesses:

(i) costs of longer match.
(ii) audience - better share on weekends.

Garvinator
26-09-2004, 11:58 PM
My guesses:

(i) costs of longer match.
(ii) audience - better share on weekends.
well 12 games would solve the first issue. Would have thought a friday night would get a better share than sunday night?

Rhubarb
27-09-2004, 12:39 AM
After Black's 13th:

Not saying Kramnik's all that much better yet but I just love having this kind of position with White (and I get this sort of thing a lot, mostly out of Spanish 4 Kts type lines). I'll watch Leko's play with interest to see how a quality opponent defends against White's central control and hints of kingside pressure.
It's a hybrid Spanish/Italian game. Has it been seen before?

One thing - Leko has a clear positional plan c5-c4 to lock the white-squared bishop out of the game forever. If he can hold everything else, maybe he's winning?

Kevin Bonham
27-09-2004, 01:01 AM
It's a hybrid Spanish/Italian game. Has it been seen before?

I haven't checked it with chessbase, as I mentioned above the commentator reckoned it was out of theory on move 11, very early.


One thing - Leko has a clear positional plan c5-c4 to lock the white-squared bishop out of the game forever. If he can hold everything else, maybe he's winning?

16.e5!? came along and put a stop to that before Leko had time to do it.

Kevin Bonham
27-09-2004, 01:04 AM
Black 17th - there's a forcing line beginning with ...Qxg5 that ends up with Qs off the board and a rather = looking position. Seems e5 may not have been so good.

Rhubarb
27-09-2004, 01:10 AM
Black 17th - there's a forcing line beginning with ...Qxg5 that ends up with Qs off the board and a rather = looking position.
Oh yeah, i saw none of that coming - isn't White better?

draw :wall:

Kevin Bonham
27-09-2004, 01:22 AM
Oh well. Threatened to be interesting for three or four moves there but went nowhere.

I wonder how much the c5-c4 plan Greg mentioned influenced Kramnik playing e5 so early.

Garvinator
27-09-2004, 01:54 AM
Oh well. Threatened to be interesting for three or four moves there but went nowhere.

I wonder how much the c5-c4 plan Greg mentioned influenced Kramnik playing e5 so early.
ok i think i need some help here, why was that position agreed drawn except that they are chicken and want a break?

Kevin Bonham
27-09-2004, 02:32 AM
After ...Nxb7 Kramnik would play 19.Qf3 threatening the knight and also to take the f-pawn with tempo on the queen. But Leko had the response 19...Qg3! attacking Kramnik's undefended rook on e1. Kramnik would have to play 20.Bxf4 then Leko would swap queens giving a very even ending. Both players would have seen this coming and decided that the chance of anyone winning the ending was so low that it wasn't worth the bother. The fact that they would both have been not too disappointed with a draw today probably played a part in them not bothering to play it out. Fairly wimpy but at least the game wasn't totally boring.

JGB
27-09-2004, 03:00 AM
Fairly wimpy but at least the game wasn't totally boring.

I agree, thats was a 'real' chess position and I was looking forward watching it be played out coz I don't mind heading into those waters with White or Black myself.
I think leaving the theory so early scared Krammnik a bit, especially when Leko is familiar in these positions with Black.

Trizza
27-09-2004, 03:45 PM
That copies the schedule from Kasparov-Kramnik (except the match is 2 games shorter). Each player always gets the same colour on the Sunday and that was criticised at the time because Kasparov was considered to be disadvantaged (I think because he did not get a rest before some of his black games whereas Kramnik always did).

If there is anything in that then Kramnik has that again and it was a good toss to lose - but maybe the Kasparov camp were making excuses.

I'm almost certain that in the Kasparov - Kramnik match Kramnik had whites on the Saturdays and Kasparov on the Sundays i.e. Kasparov always got a rest before his black games.

His complaint was that Kramnik had a rest before his whites and could play refreshed and put real pressure on. In contrast, Kasparov said he was often exhausted after defending with black and had no energy the next day.

I think this is a bit of a whinge but then I've never felt the intensity of playing a world championship match. Will be interesting to see how Kramnik deals with this problem, if it really exists. Hopefully he won't bail out quite as fast as yesterday next time round.

Kevin Bonham
27-09-2004, 05:55 PM
I'm almost certain that in the Kasparov - Kramnik match Kramnik had whites on the Saturdays and Kasparov on the Sundays i.e. Kasparov always got a rest before his black games.

Yep, I had it the wrong way round. I remembered that Kramnik won game two with white but in that match the first weekend was games 4-5 not games 1-2 as in this one.


Will be interesting to see how Kramnik deals with this problem, if it really exists.

Winning with Black instead of whingeing with Black is certainly one way around it. :clap:

Kevin Bonham
28-09-2004, 11:07 PM
Game 3 on now. Petroff's again, and same line too.

(but 16.c4 this time, not 16.h3)

Kevin Bonham
28-09-2004, 11:19 PM
17...Qc2. Guess who wants a draw?

The commentator and Fritz were not impressed by this move but I'd be stunned if Kramnik did not know what he was doing.

Bill Gletsos
28-09-2004, 11:52 PM
Leko has been thinking now for over 40 mins. It looks like 17..Qc2 may have surprised him.
Kramnik's preparation in this line may be a lot better than Leko's.

Garvinator
28-09-2004, 11:59 PM
18. d5 has been played by leko after a 40 minute think.

Kevin Bonham
29-09-2004, 12:03 AM
Bill - looks that way.

Leko ran himself down to 1:05 for 22 moves there. Then Kramnik replied within minutes (of course, this must be prepared still for him) and then Leko made another move almost right away. So Leko must have been calculating so throroughly that he saw no need to reconsider after Kramnik's move.

All that time is going to place Leko under such pressure if it gets tricky.

Bill Gletsos
29-09-2004, 12:09 AM
22 moves?

Hasnt Kramnik just played 20...Bd7 and Leko is now having another think?

Garvinator
29-09-2004, 12:11 AM
22 moves?

Hasnt Kramnik just played 20...Bd7 and Leko is now having another think?
i think kevin meant that leko has 22 moves left to make.

Kevin Bonham
29-09-2004, 12:13 AM
I don't like this for Leko one bit. Kramnik is going to fianchetto his knight which will then have some nice squares to hop to, leaving Leko with a fairly useless space advantage, pawn islands and a whopping big clock deficit. I will be extremely surprised if Leko wins this.

Bill Gletsos
29-09-2004, 12:17 AM
i think kevin meant that leko has 22 moves left to make.
That makes sense. ;)

Of course now he is down to 20 in under 52.

Kevin Bonham
29-09-2004, 12:25 AM
i think kevin meant that leko has 22 moves left to make.

Yep.

Kevin Bonham
29-09-2004, 12:36 AM
I don't like this for Leko one bit. Kramnik is going to fianchetto his knight.

Leko stopped that plan with 21.Bd2 but Kramnik has a couple of nice options anyway.

Draw looks very likely to me.

Bill Gletsos
29-09-2004, 12:42 AM
Leko stopped that plan with 21.Bd2 but Kramnik has a couple of nice options anyway.

Draw looks very likely to me.
Kramnik has taken over 25 mins now to reply.
I wouldnt be surprised if he is deciding to go for a safe draw or try and play a more aggressive line for another win.

Bill Gletsos
29-09-2004, 12:49 AM
Well they got to move 23 and drew.

Rincewind
29-09-2004, 12:54 AM
Well they got to move 23 and drew.
:tired:

Kevin Bonham
29-09-2004, 01:31 AM
Very comfortable draw for Kramnik. Now Kramnik has white with his one point lead again - but this time he will have had a day off after an easy game rather than no day off after a very exhausting one. Watch out Leko!

Garvinator
29-09-2004, 01:39 AM
Very comfortable draw for Kramnik. Now Kramnik has white with his one point lead again - but this time he will have had a day off after an easy game rather than no day off after a very exhausting one. Watch out Leko!
the match situation is already getting very serious for Leko. He requires two wins and no losses, has been out prepared so far and has one less white game remaining than kramnik (not that being white has meant much in the match so far).

On a side note, i notice that fide seem to be having problems arranging the kaspa/kasim match. Now there was a surprise :whistle:

JGB
29-09-2004, 02:33 AM
the match situation is already getting very serious for Leko. :

I don't like Leko's chances either. He has to take a few risks or his big chance will quickly disapear. Kramnik is making it looking pretty comforatble at the moment.

Trent Parker
29-09-2004, 12:13 PM
Hey everyone watching the Wch. Do you have Windows Media player 9???

On the website it suggests that for the best results in watching the games........
Alternatively, they are being relayed on fics as well.

Garvinator
29-09-2004, 12:59 PM
Hey everyone watching the Wch. Do you have Windows Media player 9???

On the website it suggests that for the best results in watching the games........
Alternatively, they are being relayed on fics as well.
i just watch the games on the boards at playchess, i was able to watch some live video feed from libya, but dont know the website address for this match. Is it the sponsor's site?

Trent Parker
29-09-2004, 01:05 PM
i just watch the games on the boards at playchess, i was able to watch some live video feed from libya, but dont know the website address for this match. Is it the sponsor's site?

http://www.worldchesschampionship.com/com/index.php?PHPSESSID=634c228be2212dba43509c8af0e227 8e&&PHPSESSID=634c228be2212dba43509c8af0e2278e

Garvinator
29-09-2004, 03:05 PM
http://www.worldchesschampionship.com/com/index.php?PHPSESSID=634c228be2212dba43509c8af0e227 8e&&PHPSESSID=634c228be2212dba43509c8af0e2278e
i have been to this site before and see the games with the board etc on this site. What i mean is, it is possible to see a free live video feed of the players moving around etc. I think i have seen on there a $10 fee?

Rincewind
30-09-2004, 11:01 PM
We have a Lopez! Another 19 move draw?

Kevin Bonham
30-09-2004, 11:53 PM
On a side note, i notice that fide seem to be having problems arranging the kaspa/kasim match. Now there was a surprise :whistle:

Truly I never would have guessed. :lol:

Good sign for a competitive match - Leko seems to have outprepared Kramnik for a change.

JGB
01-10-2004, 12:27 AM
We have a Lopez! Another 19 move draw?


I got race home (im still at work :( :wall: ) and check this out. You guys in Aus are lucky you can watch these games undistrubed!

JGB
01-10-2004, 12:28 AM
Be back in a few minutes, Im heading home :lol: ... hope they are still playing!

Kevin Bonham
01-10-2004, 01:43 AM
Very beautiful q-side symmetrical pawn structure there for moves 21 and 22. It looked like a little fish. Unfortunately it is gone now.

Not really following this game much apart from the odd brief look, too busy posting other stuff in other windows.

Rhubarb
01-10-2004, 01:54 AM
Haven't been able to connect to the site for more than an hour. Everywhere I go (twic, cb, playchess) it always links me to http://www.worldchesschampionship.com/.

KB, I'd ask you to copy the text of the moves to here, but not even that's a simple task with this site.

Bill Gletsos
01-10-2004, 01:57 AM
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. h3
Bb7 9. d3 d6 10. a3 Nd7 11. Nc3 Nd4 12. Ba2 Nxf3+ 13. Qxf3 Bg5 14. Bxg5 Qxg5
15. Nd5 c6 16. Ne3 g6 17. Rad1 Rad8 18. c3 c5 19. Bd5 Bc8 20. b4 Nb6 21. c4
Nxd5 22. Nxd5 Be6 23. bxc5 dxc5 24. Rb1 Rb8 25. cxb5 Bxd5 26. exd5 axb5 27. d6
b4 28. a4 Rfd8 29. Qd5 Qf6 30. Qxc5 Qxd6 31. Qxd6 Rxd6 32. Rxe5 b3 33. Rb5 Ra8
34. R1xb3 Rxa4 35. Rb6 Rd7 36. Rf6 Ra1+ 37. Kh2 Rd1 38. Rf3 h5 39. h4 Rd2 40.
g3 Kg7 41. Kg2 Rd1 42. Re3 Kh7 43. Kf3 Rd2 1/2-1/2

Kramnik 58 mins left, Leko 47

JGB
01-10-2004, 01:57 AM
Seems good for kramnik, he has that small but steady advantage he has held through all of these games.

Rhubarb
01-10-2004, 02:02 AM
Thanks Bill, are you getting that through the official site?

Bill Gletsos
01-10-2004, 02:03 AM
No via the Chessbase playchess server.
I'll try and keep it updated.

JGB
01-10-2004, 02:07 AM
No via the Chessbase playchess server.
I'll try and keep it updated.

Im there also, although i tried to copy the moves across for you Greg although it would not let me?!

Bill how did you manage that through the Playchess server (am I stoopid :( )

Bill Gletsos
01-10-2004, 02:10 AM
Im there also, although i tried to copy the moves across for you Greg although it would not let me?!

Bill how did you manage that through the Playchess server (am I stoopid :( )
You need to go to the game menu and select unplug transmission. Then the copy function of the edit menu works.
After copying the moves just make sure you then plug into transmission again.

Rhubarb
01-10-2004, 02:11 AM
No via the Chessbase playchess server.
I'll try and keep it updated.
Much appreciated! (But don't feel you have to stay up all night :) )

JGB
01-10-2004, 02:14 AM
Thanks Bill,

27.d6!? looks good, and it shows Kramnik is playing to win!

Bill Gletsos
01-10-2004, 02:14 AM
Much appreciated! (But don't feel you have to stay up all night :) )
Yeah, I still have the flu and need to be at work in the morning, so I might not last. ;)

Rhubarb
01-10-2004, 02:16 AM
Looks a lot better for Kramnik after 27.d6 with so many weak pawns to attack with his queen.

JGB
01-10-2004, 02:20 AM
Leko's feeling the pressure now, its make or break here and he is using his time carefully.

Kevin Bonham
01-10-2004, 02:25 AM
I refreshed because the board was lagging well behind the comments and now I can't even get into the main site. Missed everything since 24. Thanks Bill.

JGB
01-10-2004, 02:30 AM
It seems their are too many on line right now, all the Europeans are finished work and checking out the game for the first time; as all the other games were decide so early. The server can not handle so many observers. Bills doing a good job here though.

Rhubarb
01-10-2004, 02:33 AM
It seems their are too many on line right now, all the Europeans are finished work and checking out the game for the first time; as all the other games were decide so early. The server can not handle so many observers. Bills doing a good job here though.
Ah yes, that explains it. The same thing happened about 2-3 hours into the first game. Gotta admire these conscientious Europeans - waiting till they get home before they start watching!

Got any clock times, James?

edit: it's OK - Bill's just updated.

Bill Gletsos
01-10-2004, 02:36 AM
Leko is under 10 mins now and has 7 moves to make the time control. Kramnik still has around 17 mins.

JGB
01-10-2004, 02:42 AM
That guys flawless (Kramnik)! he is giving it all and playing for the win here. Leko has no chance in winning, its only Kramnik with any hope, and its looking better for him with each move (Gotta add that he is the better end game player)

Kevin Bonham
01-10-2004, 02:43 AM
Oh dear. Poor Leko - he's a pawn down in a double rook ending. Whether it's won or not, Kramnik could water-torture him for hours.

Garvinator
01-10-2004, 02:53 AM
Oh dear. Poor Leko - he's a pawn down in a double rook ending. Whether it's won or not, Kramnik could water-torture him for hours.
who are you wanting to win this match Kevin?

Garvinator
01-10-2004, 02:54 AM
and we can go back to twiddling our thumbs as they have passed move 40, so another hour each to make 20 moves.

Bill Gletsos
01-10-2004, 02:54 AM
Well they have reached 40 moves.

Bill Gletsos
01-10-2004, 03:01 AM
It looks really drawish to me.
I'm going to call it a night.

Kevin Bonham
01-10-2004, 03:02 AM
who are you wanting to win this match Kevin?

Good question. I'd like to see Kramnik retain his title by winning the match outright (not a tie) by between one and three games.

Rhubarb
01-10-2004, 03:03 AM
Well they have reached 40 moves.
Yep thanks Bill, just got your latest edit after 41.Kg2.

It's going to be a long and tortuous process for Kramnik to make any progress at all. Maybe Rf3-e3, Kf1-e1, Re4, d4, etc, and that's assuming Leko's doing nothing.

Bill Gletsos
01-10-2004, 03:05 AM
Yep thanks Bill, just got your latest edit after 41.Kg2.

It's going to be a long and tortuous process for Kramnik to make any progress at all. Maybe Rf3-e3, Kf1-e1, Re4, d4, etc, and that's assuming Leko's doing nothing.
Well Nigel Short called it quits mumbling something about Leko's technique being too god in this position for it not to be drawn.

Garvinator
01-10-2004, 03:06 AM
Good question. I'd like to see Kramnik retain his title by winning the match outright (not a tie) by between one and three games.
i want to see kramnik win and then have kramnik defend the world championship against kasparov, which i hope kramnik wins. then, in my opinion, the 'proper' order of chess will be restored and we can get back to a credible world championship three year cycle (we hope).

Bill Gletsos
01-10-2004, 03:09 AM
Looks like they are moving again, however it still looks drawn to me. ;)

Kevin Bonham
01-10-2004, 03:11 AM
I've got the game back on through the game viewer now, after Black 43. Looks extremely hard to win.

Kevin Bonham
01-10-2004, 03:13 AM
...and as soon as I posted that, they agreed a draw!

JGB
01-10-2004, 03:13 AM
I've got the game back on through the game viewer now, after Black 43. Looks extremely hard to win.

he not going to win that! But I don't see how Leko's going to win a single game from Krammnik at the moment!

Bill Gletsos
01-10-2004, 03:14 AM
Ok its officially drawn.

JGB
01-10-2004, 03:19 AM
Sleep well guys, Im off to my club, tonights Blitz and im fired up now! :lol:

Garvinator
01-10-2004, 03:22 AM
ok clearly there is no niggle or genuine dislike between these two. As Kevin said, Kramnik could have played that for a couple of more hours at least. I bet that if these two didnt like each other, they would still be playing when the sun comes up for us here in australia :uhoh:

Garvinator
03-10-2004, 12:17 AM
anyone know why leko is taking over 30 mins in a well known position?

Bill Gletsos
03-10-2004, 12:22 AM
anyone know why leko is taking over 30 mins in a well known position?
No.
After all that he just played the standard book move anyway.

Garvinator
03-10-2004, 12:38 AM
No.
After all that he just played the standard book move anyway.
unless there is something wrong with all the connections ie icc and the main site, leko seems to be trying to find these moves himself, like he doesnt know the theory, which would be surprising :eek:

Bill Gletsos
03-10-2004, 12:45 AM
unless there is something wrong with all the connections ie icc and the main site, leko seems to be trying to find these moves himself, like he doesnt know the theory, which would be surprising :eek:
I seem to recall reading that Leko has never played 1. d4 before, which Megabase 2004 seems to confirm.
He always plays 1. e4

Garvinator
03-10-2004, 12:47 AM
I seem to recall reading that Leko has never played 1. d4 before, which Megabase 2004 seems to confirm.
He always plays 1. e4
are you on playchess or the main site?

Bill Gletsos
03-10-2004, 12:50 AM
are you on playchess or the main site?
playchess

Kevin Bonham
03-10-2004, 04:08 AM
I seem to recall reading that Leko has never played 1. d4 before, which Megabase 2004 seems to confirm.
He always plays 1. e4

Bobby Fischer pulled that trick in a world championship match too.

Kevin Bonham
03-10-2004, 05:42 AM
ok clearly there is no niggle or genuine dislike between these two. As Kevin said, Kramnik could have played that for a couple of more hours at least.

Actually I said that before I'd had a close look at the double-rook ending, by the time it was agreed drawn it was clear that it was extremely difficult for White to find any plan.


I bet that if these two didnt like each other, they would still be playing when the sun comes up for us here in australia :uhoh:

Leko has just beaten Kramnik in a fascinating six and a half hour 69-move epic. I don't know if the sun's up yet but it's certainly light outside here. If Leko goes on to win this match this could be a very famous game.

I reckon you should lay off 'em. We've had two results in five games, one reasonably long and competitive draw, and two draws which, while short, were not without interest. Certainly a better match so far than Kasparov-Kramnik which had a few incredibly lame draws in it.

ursogr8
03-10-2004, 08:38 AM
i want to see kramnik win and then have kramnik defend the world championship against kasparov, which i hope kramnik wins. then, in my opinion, the 'proper' order of chess will be restored and we can get back to a credible world championship three year cycle (we hope).

gg''
How come the signature line in your profile does not display on post 105?
starter

Garvinator
03-10-2004, 12:32 PM
gg''
How come the signature line in your profile does not display on post 105?
starter
i only added the sig line yesterday, maybe that is it :eh:

Kevin Bonham
03-10-2004, 10:17 PM
I reckon the chances of a quick draw tonight must be high. Leko will not want to risk flushing yesterday's match-levelling victory down the toilet; Kramnik with White may be very exhausted after yesterday. Maybe Kramnik will go for an immediate strike-back but I think he's more likely to settle for a couple of games - also bear in mind that Leko still has to beat him again to get the title.

Fortunately my low prediction for the number of wins in the match (three) has an excellent chance of being wrong now.

Kaitlin
04-10-2004, 12:03 AM
Classical World Chess Championship 2004
...............Kramnik - Leko..............

Who's going to win overall? They play 14 games and its even after five games 2.5 points each.

Garvinator
04-10-2004, 12:14 AM
Classical World Chess Championship 2004
...............Kramnik - Leko..............

Who's going to win overall? They play 14 games and its even after five games 2.5 points each.
hello kaitlin, we are already debating the match in the thread just below this one :D http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?p=30497#post30497

Recherché
04-10-2004, 12:26 AM
Leko all the way! :D

Kaitlin
04-10-2004, 12:37 AM
I did click on that thread before but it came up with the PNG Viewer put by Bill and I never :doh: read any of the other post, I just got stuck moveing the pieces and looking at that game. :( sorry.. you can delete my one if you can thats ok, I dont know how, it took me ages just to work out how to make it a poll one, if I delete it by editing it will it still be there but just be blank.

Recherché
04-10-2004, 12:43 AM
Well I don't personally see the harm in a second thread since there's a poll attached to it. :)

Kevin Bonham
04-10-2004, 12:43 AM
Hmmm, move 19 and Leko with the Black pieces has a rather nice looking position - Kramnik has the sick bishop he almost got in game three. Will Leko try to kick him when he's down - it's hardly a risky position for Black to play now, he is simply better.

Bill Gletsos
04-10-2004, 12:52 AM
Yasser thinks its very drawish especially if Kramnik plays Rad1.
He is suggesting Bh4 to try and induce Leko to weaken his King side.

Kevin Bonham
04-10-2004, 01:10 AM
When there's just the one open file with no side having a real attack and both castled on the same side winning chances aren't easy to construct.

Rhubarb
04-10-2004, 01:16 AM
Hmmm, move 19 and Leko with the Black pieces has a rather nice looking position - Kramnik has the sick bishop he almost got in game three. Will Leko try to kick him when he's down - it's hardly a risky position for Black to play now, he is simply better.
Yes, Kramnik's insipid play with White in this match has been an insult to the centuries-old knowledge base formed by the theoriticians of the Spanish Game. I like Leko's position after move 20, too, and I hope he has time to play the likes of ...h6, Kh7, g6, Nc6-b8-d7-c5 (emphasis on the word hope).

Rhubarb
04-10-2004, 01:19 AM
When there's just the one open file with no side having a real attack and both castled on the same side winning chances aren't easy to construct.
No, if it's just a manoeuvring game, Black's chances are far superior in this position. But Kramnik has an uncanny ability to defuse.

edit: of course they could just agree a draw :rolleyes:

Bill Gletsos
04-10-2004, 01:25 AM
Draw agreed after offer by Leko.

Kevin Bonham
04-10-2004, 01:37 AM
Rather wimpy effort by Leko that time, I look forward to seeing his excuse for it.

Kaitlin
04-10-2004, 01:48 AM
I worked out how you guys were watching it, its kewl you get to watch it for free hey :). Next time I will have to juggle the windows so I can see both so I can see what yous type as well. I couldnt see all of what that guy was typeing at the bottom of the game it wouldnt fit on my screen, and I forgot to refresh this window. Oh and sorry again for not read properly all the things under the topic before makeing a same heading one. :(

Garvinator
04-10-2004, 01:50 AM
I worked out how you guys were watching it, its kewl you get to watch it for free hey :). Next time I will have to juggle the windows so I can see both so I can see what yous type as well. I couldnt see all of what that guy was typeing at the bottom of the game it wouldnt fit on my screen, and I forgot to refresh this window. Oh and sorry again for not read properly all the things under the topic before makeing a same heading one. :(
its cool :D if that was the worst 'crime' committed on here, we would have a great time ;)

Garvinator
04-10-2004, 01:52 AM
it is draws like leko's offer in this game that doesnt help chess get sponsorship. why would you want to sponsor a game that ends half way through with no real valid reason. I dont feel like playing isnt good enough. Spectators pay good money to watch at the venue(i imagine). I wouldnt be happy paying good money to watch game 6 and then having a draw agreed in the middle of the game :evil:

Kevin Bonham
04-10-2004, 02:03 AM
I couldnt see all of what that guy was typeing at the bottom of the game it wouldnt fit on my screen,

I have that problem too, although by moving the toolbar at the bottom of my screen down as low as it will go and dragging the game window up as high as it will go I can read all but the last line.


and I forgot to refresh this window.

Sometimes I don't need to. Tonight it worked fine all the way through.

Kevin Bonham
04-10-2004, 02:11 AM
it is draws like leko's offer in this game that doesnt help chess get sponsorship.

I wonder: is the sponsorship mainly pitched at paying spectators or people watching online?

Rhubarb
04-10-2004, 02:29 AM
it is draws like leko's offer in this game that doesnt help chess get sponsorship. why would you want to sponsor a game that ends half way through with no real valid reason. I dont feel like playing isnt good enough. Spectators pay good money to watch at the venue(i imagine). I wouldnt be happy paying good money to watch game 6 and then having a draw agreed in the middle of the game :evil:
GG, of course this is a huge problem with chess.

But there has been a 100-year tradition that these World Championship matches are a war of attrition, designed to test skill over a long period of time, and ostensibly to determine the most complete, the most powerful, the most skilful player.

With all the rapid-style crap going on these days, it's almost refreshing to have an old-style tussle. It's not so old-style that they have "adjournments" (what a ridiculous travesty that was), but it's nevertheless a real mano-a-mano competition.

And the sponsors knew very well what they were in for - two of the most professional "holders" in the modern game. Despite a few short draws, so far it's been far more interesting than I thought it would be, and you cannot deny either player the right to make (drawing) decisions, if they believe it will maximise their chances of winning the match.

Personally, I can't stand the style of either of these boring-as-batshit players, and I hope Kasparov crushes the winner like a dog.

JGB
04-10-2004, 03:10 AM
Personally, I can't stand the style of either of these boring-as-batshit players, and I hope Kasparov crushes the winner like a dog.

Thats a matter of style preferance, I personally find Kramnik's style more entertaining as Kasparov's, and I am looking forward to seeing Kramnik crush Kasparov. ;)

Rhubarb
04-10-2004, 04:50 AM
I personally find Kramnik's style more entertaining as Kasparov's
I personally find Kramnik's style less more entertaining as Kasparov's


and I am looking forward to seeing Kramnik crush Kasparov. ;)

JGB, let me explain the situation to you: the likes of Kramnik, Leko, Karpov, Botvinnik are, philosophically speaking, leeches - yes, absolute leeches! - compared to the play of Kasparov, Tal, Fischer, Alekhine.

The latter are the playmakers; the former are the default winners.

Garvinator
04-10-2004, 01:30 PM
GG, of course this is a huge problem with chess.

But there has been a 100-year tradition that these World Championship matches are a war of attrition, designed to test skill over a long period of time, and ostensibly to determine the most complete, the most powerful, the most skilful player.

With all the rapid-style crap going on these days, it's almost refreshing to have an old-style tussle. It's not so old-style that they have "adjournments" (what a ridiculous travesty that was), but it's nevertheless a real mano-a-mano competition.

And the sponsors knew very well what they were in for - two of the most professional "holders" in the modern game. Despite a few short draws, so far it's been far more interesting than I thought it would be, and you cannot deny either player the right to make (drawing) decisions, if they believe it will maximise their chances of winning the match.

Personally, I can't stand the style of either of these boring-as-batshit players, and I hope Kasparov crushes the winner like a dog.


at the risk of sounding like matt with his ban the byes rantings, if the draw agreement rule was written out of the rule book, then that would solve these situations. Of course there would have to be something for the OCB endings etc where there is heaps of material, but neither side can make progress. I am sure the rule could be re written to ban draw offers :D

Garvinator
04-10-2004, 01:31 PM
leeches - yes, absolute leeches!
why are they leeches?

Bill Gletsos
04-10-2004, 03:38 PM
at the risk of sounding like matt with his ban the byes rantings, if the draw agreement rule was written out of the rule book, then that would solve these situations.
Clearly you havent given that idea too much thought because it would solve nothing.
The players would then simply reate the moves to get a three fold repetition.

Garvinator
04-10-2004, 04:00 PM
Clearly you havent given that idea too much thought because it would solve nothing.
The players would then simply reate the moves to get a three fold repetition.
i remember you saying this before ;) and i didnt reply then, i think cause the debate went in other directions.

My reply would be in two areas:

1) By trying to repeat moves, this does increase the chances of a mistake one player, they would be taking a large risk in attempting to repeat moves.
2) Both players would have to be complicite in this process, either by collusion before the game or during the game. If two players really want a draw, then it easy to achieve

I am just saying that things need to be improved, maybe my idea is not best, but i am all ears for better suggestions.

ursogr8
04-10-2004, 04:17 PM
I am just saying that things need to be improved, maybe my idea is not best, but i am all ears for better suggestions.

gg''

When F_R was first discussed here it was with some hope that
> players could not go down well-worn paths to a known drawn set-up
>> players could not rely on memorized opening theory so there was an increased chance of one being outplayed by the other in the opening (hence less draws)
>>> players are less able to 'see' that a position is drawn, so less draw offers.

The theory is not perfect.
And no-one agreed at the time.

So just ignore this post. :uhoh:

starter

JGB
04-10-2004, 04:43 PM
JGB, let me explain the situation to you: the likes of Kramnik, Leko, Karpov, Botvinnik are, philosophically speaking, leeches - yes, absolute leeches! - compared to the play of Kasparov, Tal, Fischer, Alekhine.


I guess I can't argue with that?! :hmm:

Why are they leeches? And why have you brought Tal, Fischer and Alekhine into this? I am mad about those three guys and find their play absolutely nothing like Kasparovs and more like Kramniks. I am refering to the playing style and nothing else which may render someone a 'leech'.

Rhubarb
05-10-2004, 02:34 AM
Why are they leeches? And why have you brought Tal, Fischer and Alekhine into this? I am mad about those three guys and find their play absolutely nothing like Kasparovs and more like Kramniks. I am refering to the playing style and nothing else which may render someone a 'leech'.

Frankly, I'm amazed at the crap I post in the middle of the night sometimes. :D

I think I was trying to say that Kramnik doesn't appear to go to much effort to win games (or at least doesn't take any risks) and often only wins because his opponent tries to beat him. If everyone took that attitude, top-level chess would be pretty bleak.

When Kasparov was at the height of his powers, on the other hand, he would try to win every single game with both colours.

Kevin Bonham
05-10-2004, 11:04 PM
1.d4 again! And a Slav this time. I used to play this but now prefer the Semi- variety.

JGB
05-10-2004, 11:06 PM
Wish I could follow but im at work and don't have Chessbase installed?! :(
...guess at work their are other things to do :hmm: ... but ill stay here and listen in to what you guys are saying anyway.

Kevin Bonham
05-10-2004, 11:23 PM
I don't know this line at all. There are a few dozen games in chessbase after Black's 9th, including one where White was Trevor Tao.

Rhubarb
05-10-2004, 11:24 PM
Knaak is saying that Black's played c7-c6-c5 so White has a2-a4 extra.

I think (not sure as I don't play with either colour) that if the pawn was on a2 it's a position in the QG Accepted. Given the choice, White would most like to have the pawn on a3 because of the b4 weakness, so the real question is whether the pawn is better on a2 or a4.

Kevin Bonham
05-10-2004, 11:41 PM
10.Be3 is a rare move only played twice before.

Garvinator
05-10-2004, 11:58 PM
10.Be3 is a rare move only played twice before.
maybe someone could do the board that Bill did a few days ago for James to help him out.

Rhubarb
06-10-2004, 12:03 AM
Just got Playchess's live broadcasts up and running, and there is a veritable feast for chess fans tonight! No.2 highlight is Kasparov-Shirov in the European Club Cup.

JGB
06-10-2004, 12:24 AM
maybe someone could do the board that Bill did a few days ago for James to help him out.

Thanks mate, but that would be too much work for most people, Ill check out the game when I get home.

Garvinator
06-10-2004, 12:39 AM
Just got Playchess's live broadcasts up and running, and there is a veritable feast for chess fans tonight! No.2 highlight is Kasparov-Shirov in the European Club Cup.
with your comments regarding kramnik/kaspa, i would have thought that kramnik leko would be your number 2 highlight :P

JGB
06-10-2004, 12:46 AM
But Shirov, that guys always exciting to watch.

Kevin Bonham
06-10-2004, 12:46 AM
Pretty slow play tonight, an hour each and only on move 12.

JGB
06-10-2004, 12:48 AM
Pretty slow play tonight, an hour each and only on move 12.
Fine by me, maybe their still at it when I get home. ;)

Rhubarb
06-10-2004, 12:53 AM
Thanks mate, but that would be too much work for most people, Ill check out the game when I get home.
I've just tried to do this but my computer crashed when I tried to load one too many European Cup games. Give me a few minutes - it's no trouble for me as I'll be up for a couple more hours.

Kevin Bonham
06-10-2004, 12:54 AM
Hmmm. White's swapped off his IQP and now has some sort of space advantage.

Rhubarb
06-10-2004, 12:55 AM
with your comments regarding kramnik/kaspa, i would have thought that kramnik leko would be your number 2 highlight :P
Good point!

Still, a WC match takes precedence over even Kasparov-Shirov in my book.

Rhubarb
06-10-2004, 01:20 AM
Right sorry, JGB, Playchess crashed my computer 3 times! This is from the official site which is doing a good job at the moment.

Leko - Kramnik [D16]

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.a4 e6 6.e3 c5 7.Bxc4 Nc6 8.0-0 cxd4 9.exd4 Be7 10.Be3 0-0 11.Ne5 Nb4 12.a5 Bd7 13.d5 exd5 14.Nxd5 Nbxd5 15.Bxd5 Nxd5 16.Qxd5 Bc8 17.Rfd1 Qxd5 18.Rxd5 Be6 19.Rb5 Bf6 20.Nf3 b6 21. axb6 axb6 0.5-0.5

Leko 32 mins; Kramnik 40.

Rhubarb
06-10-2004, 01:27 AM
After 19...Bf6 maybe K's got enough play with the 2 Bishops. But 20.f4 must be at least a little better for Leko.

Garvinator
06-10-2004, 01:48 AM
draw on move 21 after axb6 by leko :wall: i find it interesting that for two guys who play alot of endgames, that they dont try and play these out.

Rhubarb
06-10-2004, 01:57 AM
draw on move 21 after axb6 by leko :wall: i find it interesting that for two guys who play alot of endgames, that they dont try and play these out.
I guess there's not a lot to play for after 22.Rxa8 Rxa8 23.h3 Rb8. That's why I thought 20.f4 might have been a better chance.

Edit: Now that I look at it properly 20.f4 is quite risky if Kramnik just gives up his Q-side and plays Rfc8-c2, Bd5, so Leko's play is fair enough.

Kevin Bonham
06-10-2004, 01:57 AM
Garvin - Would be fairly pointless though. That final position is extremely drawish. The q-side pawns will be swapped off leaving only the 3-3 kingside. Even if someone (I have no idea how) managed to win a pawn from there they would still most likely not win the game.

That was mildly interesting but fizzled out a lot faster than I thought it would.

Garvinator
06-10-2004, 02:01 AM
Garvin - Would be fairly pointless though. That final position is extremely drawish. The q-side pawns will be swapped off leaving only the 3-3 kingside. Even if someone (I have no idea how) managed to win a pawn from there they would still most likely not win the game.

That was mildly interesting but fizzled out a lot faster than I thought it would.
I agree, just sometimes i believe that super grandmasters are able to generate chances and pressure where us mere mortals cant ;) .

JGB
06-10-2004, 04:05 AM
Thanks for that Kegless :)

I personally didn't mind that game, although it won't be remembered in two weeks time.

Rhubarb
06-10-2004, 04:19 AM
I personally didn't mind that game.
Me neither. Like game 2, this one genuinely fizzled.

P.S. Imagine a match between Kasparov and Shirov though. :)

Kaitlin
06-10-2004, 11:05 PM
oh :( it was on last nite and I missed it... darn timezones and round earth theroy :(

Garvinator
07-10-2004, 12:55 AM
oh :( it was on last nite and I missed it... darn timezones and round earth theroy :(
the next game starts in 22 hours from the time of this post of mine.

Kevin Bonham
07-10-2004, 03:29 AM
I agree, just sometimes i believe that super grandmasters are able to generate chances and pressure where us mere mortals cant ;) .

Indeed. But not against each other ... at least not in positions like that.

Kevin Bonham
07-10-2004, 11:20 PM
Who's watching tonight? Yet another Spanish. Kramnik offers queen exchange already. News of the day ... not.

Kaitlin
07-10-2004, 11:31 PM
I just got here, sorting resizing the two windows

Bill Gletsos
07-10-2004, 11:32 PM
Current position was reached in Rujevic V Zhao from the 1999 Australian Masters. Rujevic ended up winning in 67.

JGB
07-10-2004, 11:34 PM
Who's watching tonight? Yet another Spanish. Kramnik offers queen exchange already. News of the day ... not.

Im listening in from work as ussual. :)

by the way Kevin do you like my new signature?

Kaitlin
07-10-2004, 11:35 PM
How do you even know that, you must know lots of chess stuff. So you think Kramnik will win this game.

Trent Parker
07-10-2004, 11:37 PM
*yawn* watching on Fics....
Should go to bed...... maybe in a little while :D

Bill Gletsos
07-10-2004, 11:38 PM
How do you even know that, you must know lots of chess stuff. So you think Kramnik will win this game.
I just did a database search. ;)
Found 20 games in Mega 2004, then looked for players names I might recognise.

Rincewind
07-10-2004, 11:42 PM
by the way Kevin do you like my new signature?

I don't think Kevin can be trolled on the French. Back on a previous board he had a sig something like 1.e4 e6! 0-1 and so I had a sig of 1.e4! 1-0 but he didn't bite. Interesting to note I think Kevin still plays the French and since then I have all but given up on 1.e4 in tournament games. :)

JGB
07-10-2004, 11:44 PM
I don't think Kevin can be trolled on the French. Back on a previous board he had a sig something like 1.e4 e6! 0-1 and so I had a sig of 1.e4! 1-0 but he didn't bite. Interesting to note I think Kevin still plays the French and since then I have all but given up on 1.e4 in tournament games. :)

He still plays it, that much I know, quite a few of his games in the French i have played over.

Kevin Bonham
07-10-2004, 11:46 PM
by the way Kevin do you like my new signature?

Yes, I do. The presence of suckers still willing to allow my pet to appear on the board is always an encouraging sign.

JGB
07-10-2004, 11:48 PM
Yes, I do. The presence of suckers still willing to allow my pet to appear on the board is always an encouraging sign.

It's not exactly foreign to me either. it's pretty obvious what we will be playing when we meet the first time over the board and I have the White pieces.

Kaitlin
07-10-2004, 11:52 PM
What is Marshall is that the style of start that they have being with um = Yet another Spanish.

Rincewind
08-10-2004, 12:02 AM
What is Marshall is that the style of start that they have being with um = Yet another Spanish.

Marshall is a line in the Spanish. The Spanish (or Ruy Lopez) is just about anything after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5. This thing is a Marshall where Black plays and early d5 and (usually) launches an attack against White's K-side.

Kevin Bonham
08-10-2004, 12:05 AM
Often called "Marshall Gambit".

Rincewind
08-10-2004, 12:07 AM
I just did a database search. ;)
Found 20 games in Mega 2004, then looked for players names I might recognise.

Did you spot Rujevic-Zhao, Melb 1999?

edit:
Also Korchnoi - Silver Santa Monica 1977.

Kaitlin
08-10-2004, 12:22 AM
I like Blacks position its more like an attack :)... Im going for Black

Rincewind
08-10-2004, 12:29 AM
I like Blacks position its more like an attack :)... Im going for Black

:) Black's position looks more fun at the moment. However, come the endgame you will probably prefer white.

So can Black convert his piece activity into a permanent advantage? (Or at least get back his pawn). The fact he is an hour down on the clock doesn't help, either. :(

BTW 18...Nf6 was new as far as I know.

Kevin Bonham
08-10-2004, 12:49 AM
21.a4 with queenside counterplay and good chances to activate currently struggling pieces. I like.

JGB
08-10-2004, 12:52 AM
21.a4 with queenside counterplay and good chances to activate currently struggling pieces. I like.

I can not see the position but when White has the chance to play a4 in the Marshall he is usually doing well.

Kevin Bonham
08-10-2004, 01:06 AM
I was watching and wondering "how on earth can White get any piece activity here" - unravelling the q-side just seems hopeless, I'm not familiar with the Marshall at all. Then Kramnik played a4 and I thought "doh!"

JGB
08-10-2004, 01:19 AM
How are they going for time?

Kaitlin
08-10-2004, 01:19 AM
mmm I was thinking instead of Black move his Queen to g6 he could have moved his horse to g4...... maybe

Kevin Bonham
08-10-2004, 01:20 AM
Wow. Kramnik has given up queen for rook and, I expect, piece.

JGB
08-10-2004, 01:22 AM
Can somone post the position? I gotta see it now! :eek:

Kaitlin
08-10-2004, 01:22 AM
How are they going for time?
Leko clock says 0h:12 min and Kramnik clock says 1h:25min

Garvinator
08-10-2004, 01:24 AM
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 0-0 8. c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3 Qh3 15. Re4 g5 16. Qf1 Qh5 17. Nd2 Bf5 18. f3 Nf6 19. Re1 Rae8 20. Rxe8 Rxe8 21. a4 Qg6 22. axb5 Bd3 23. Qf2 Re2 24. Qxe2 Bxe2 25. bxa6 Qd3 26. Kf2 Bxf3 27. Nxf3 Ne4 28. Ke1 Nxc3 29. bxc3 Qxc3 30. Kf2 Qxa1 31. a7 h6 32. h4 g4 0-1

Garvinator
08-10-2004, 01:26 AM
is that satisfactory james ;)

JGB
08-10-2004, 01:28 AM
Your a life saver mate :clap:

JGB
08-10-2004, 01:30 AM
Its a grand game! :D But is Krammy in too deep now? What are the computers saying???

Kevin Bonham
08-10-2004, 01:31 AM
25...Qd3. What the hell is Leko doing? I can't believe this move, does he think he has a perpetual on the k-side? His time trouble is shocking. Ripper of a game so far but I will not be surprised if the wheels fall off.

Where's kegless?

Kevin Bonham
08-10-2004, 01:33 AM
Its a grand game! :D But is Krammy in too deep now? What are the computers saying???

Fritz on the site was saying +1.32 but I'm not sure if it has frozen. The commentator just said that he thinks Leko has a draw.

JGB
08-10-2004, 01:33 AM
Where's kegless?
Good Question!

Garvinator
08-10-2004, 01:34 AM
25...Qd3. What the hell is Leko doing? I can't believe this move, does he think he has a perpetual on the k-side? His time trouble is shocking. Ripper of a game so far but I will not be surprised if the wheels fall off.

Where's kegless?
fritz is saying white 1.32 or so ahead, the international gm commentator is suggesting win for black, perhaps perpetual??

Kevin Bonham
08-10-2004, 01:37 AM
Fritz has either frozen or else this is off its event horizon. Yes I've seen the line he posted, letting Kramnik queen - looks good.

Kevin Bonham
08-10-2004, 01:42 AM
Leko has a totally won game!

JGB
08-10-2004, 01:45 AM
Leko has a totally won game!

What have I missed???

Kaitlin
08-10-2004, 01:47 AM
Leko might offer a draw yet :S

Kevin Bonham
08-10-2004, 01:49 AM
There are many lines but the main line is 26.a7 Qe3+ 27.Kg2 Bxf3+ 28.Nxf3 Qe2+ 29.Qg1 Ng4 and white is smashed!!!

Garvinator
08-10-2004, 01:49 AM
What have I missed???
my position after 25... Qd3 is current.

Garvinator
08-10-2004, 01:50 AM
There are many lines but the main line is 26.a7 Qe3+ 27.Kg2 Bxf3+ 28.Nxf3 Qe2+ 29.Qg1 Ng4 and white is smashed!!!
fritz for me is currently looking at Bc4.

JGB
08-10-2004, 01:52 AM
This is brilliant position but It is very tough to analyse here, thats what I meant by Kramnik being in too deep?!

Garvinator
08-10-2004, 01:53 AM
25...Qd3. What the hell is Leko doing? I can't believe this move, does he think he has a perpetual on the k-side? His time trouble is shocking. Ripper of a game so far but I will not be surprised if the wheels fall off.

Where's kegless?
i think Leko knows what he is doing ;)

JGB
08-10-2004, 01:54 AM
No amount of over-time is worth this torture Im heading home soon!
...by the way you guys are way past your bed time! :)

Kaitlin
08-10-2004, 01:58 AM
Its school holidays :) Im allowed.

Garvinator
08-10-2004, 02:06 AM
No amount of over-time is worth this torture Im heading home soon!
...by the way you guys are way past your bed time! :)
are you still there james?

Kevin Bonham
08-10-2004, 02:17 AM
It's over! Amazing game. Looks like 31.a7 was an error and Kramnik should have played 31.Bxg5, but still a very hard position to hold. Maybe he could have saved it.

Garvinator
08-10-2004, 02:20 AM
It's over! Amazing game. Looks like 31.a7 was an error and Kramnik should have played 31.Bxg5, but still a very hard position to hold. Maybe he could have saved it.
Now the fact that if the scores are tied 7-7 kramnik keeps the title really becomes important.

Kevin Bonham
08-10-2004, 02:38 AM
It seems 23.Qf2 was losing or nearly so but even if 23.Qd1 instead Black still had play, eg 23...Be2 24.Bc2 (best) Qh6! 25.Qe1 Bxf3 and after White gives up Q for R+B it's messy but looks like a draw.


Now the fact that if the scores are tied 7-7 kramnik keeps the title really becomes important.

Yes. For the first time in the match Kramnik now knows he has to win a game. And he only has six left to do it. I wonder if Leko will go back to "old Leko" mode. Back in the days before the "new Leko" he was such a boring player that kasparovchess had a page celebrating his love of the draw.

Oh, and your match score prediction is sunk and so is mine; Greg needs +1=4-1 to be spot on.

Garvinator
08-10-2004, 02:41 AM
It seems 23.Qf2 was losing or nearly so but even if 23.Qd1 instead Black still had play, eg 23...Be2 24.Bc2 (best) Qh6! 25.Qe1 Bxf3 and after White gives up Q for R+B it's messy but looks like a draw.
and i have always wondered why white keeps avoiding the marshall gambit and plays lines like 8. a4 or 8. d4, now i have some idea why ;)

JGB
08-10-2004, 03:09 AM
Thanks a lot for the work gray :clap:

A nice game that in hindsight showed that Leko had everything under control. Will be interesting to see what Kramnik plays against this line next time.

d4 is the anti-marshall line i use and this seems to maintain Whites slight advantage and gives White (not Black) the better attacking chances. This game is fine example of why so many anti-Marshall lines exist.

Garvinator
08-10-2004, 11:18 AM
ouch, chessbase is saying that kramniks choice of all the moves up to 25. bxa6 was all home preparation :eek: hmm did he have a bet with the bookies or something, home preparing a lost position :eek: :lol:

Kevin Bonham
08-10-2004, 01:51 PM
ouch, chessbase is saying that kramniks choice of all the moves up to 25. bxa6 was all home preparation :eek: hmm did he have a bet with the bookies or something, home preparing a lost position :eek: :lol:

Oh, the pain. Poor Vlady. :(

Yes, he had used so little time on his clock up til then that it did seem very likely he was still in home prep. The commentator said something like this at the time Kramnik played it. (The commentator, a GM, also thought that Leko had stuffed it up until the point became clear.)

21...Qg6! was such a good move. It looks like although White had played 21.a4 it was actually too late; Black by that stage had dynamic equality. Such a brilliant effort by Leko, to run his clock so low (seven minutes for fifteen moves) in backing himself to bust Kramnik's preparation.

Rincewind
08-10-2004, 02:56 PM
21...Qg6! was such a good move. It looks like although White had played 21.a4 it was actually too late; Black by that stage had dynamic equality. Such a brilliant effort by Leko, to run his clock so low (seven minutes for fifteen moves) in backing himself to bust Kramnik's preparation.

Yes a Specktacular effort! I don;t think Qg6 was unexpected though. Maybe Bd3. Don't know. Personally I thought Leko's Nf6 looked a little slow and dodgy. How wrong was I?

Rincewind
09-10-2004, 11:04 PM
1.d4 again from the Hungarian.

Q's Indian

Garvinator
09-10-2004, 11:54 PM
1.d4 again from the Hungarian.

Q's Indian
so much for the extensive discussions :uhoh:

Rhubarb
09-10-2004, 11:57 PM
On the official site they're saying after move 15 it's transposed to a game Van der Sterren-Epishin, which was later drawn, but at the moment it looks like White has every chance for some kind of advantage.

P.S. Just downloading plug-ins at the moment so I can use chessbase.com.

Kevin Bonham
10-10-2004, 12:11 AM
I'm not keen on the White Bf4. It seems to be wearing a large "kick me" sign and I don't see how White can avoid loss of time because of that.

Garvinator
10-10-2004, 07:30 PM
I'm not keen on the White Bf4. It seems to be wearing a large "kick me" sign and I don't see how White can avoid loss of time because of that.
i see we are all rushing to analyse that last game ;)

Kevin Bonham
10-10-2004, 10:55 PM
Yes, I've defended every draw in the match up til now but that was certainly one for the Chicken Factor.

Garvinator
10-10-2004, 10:59 PM
Yes, I've defended every draw in the match up til now but that was certainly one for the Chicken Factor.
so, will we be seeing another marshall attack in this game?

Garvinator
10-10-2004, 11:04 PM
so, will we be seeing another marshall attack in this game?
5... Bc5 by leko, that is a surprise. :eh:

Kevin Bonham
10-10-2004, 11:10 PM
Must not have wanted to see Kramnik's repair job on the lines played in game eight.

Trent Parker
10-10-2004, 11:13 PM
interesting opening....

Kevin Bonham
10-10-2004, 11:25 PM
Chicken Factor ratings for game 9:

Kramnik: Cowardly Cuckoo
Leko: Chicken Supreme.

(Bit harsh on the latter. He is in the lead, after all. Also in view of the player's fairly colour-indifferent past records vs each other, I think the colour adjustment should be removed, in which case they swap rankings.)

Garvinator
10-10-2004, 11:28 PM
Chicken Factor ratings for game 9:

Kramnik: Cowardly Cuckoo
Leko: Chicken Supreme.

(Bit harsh on the latter. He is in the lead, after all. Also in view of the player's fairly colour-indifferent past records vs each other, I think the colour adjustment should be removed, in which case they swap rankings.)
also would the chicken factor scale be different for matches? Leko doesnt have to make the play. he can just threaten to draw his way to victory.

Kevin Bonham
10-10-2004, 11:52 PM
also would the chicken factor scale be different for matches? Leko doesnt have to make the play. he can just threaten to draw his way to victory.

The scale allows a discount for draws while leading the match in the final two games only.

Garvinator
11-10-2004, 12:48 AM
The scale allows a discount for draws while leading the match in the final two games only.
has the link crashed?

Bill Gletsos
11-10-2004, 12:54 AM
has the link crashed?
I dont think so.

Kevin Bonham
11-10-2004, 12:59 AM
has the link crashed?

Yep. Again. Rather pathetic really, usually these problems are fixed after the first two or three games of a match.

Kevin Bonham
11-10-2004, 01:01 AM
Something's gone on anyway. I got no moves after W14, then the times were almost an hour behind, and also now I cannot get onto the main site at all.

Bill Gletsos
11-10-2004, 01:02 AM
Its currently up to move 20 awaiting whites 21st. Same on the playchess server.

Kevin Bonham
11-10-2004, 01:06 AM
Mine's back up now.

I missed some interesting stuff. Kramnik has good play here. Black's pawn structure is disgusting.

Garvinator
11-10-2004, 01:11 AM
Mine's back up now.

I missed some interesting stuff. Kramnik has good play here. Black's pawn structure is disgusting.
so am i

Kevin Bonham
11-10-2004, 01:25 AM
Is it still White to play 21 or has mine frozen again?