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View Full Version : Ratings calculations (Elo, etc)



Spiny Norman
16-09-2004, 05:26 PM
Is there any recommended web link I can visit that provides a semi-coherent (non-super-technical) description of how Elo ratings are calculated?

Happy to search this out my own, but I figured that I'll run into varying levels of understanding of how it all works and I don't want to absorb inaccurate information ...

Thanks,

Frosty

Rincewind
16-09-2004, 05:29 PM
I wrote a short article which compares Glicko and Elo. You can access it here

http://bjcox.com/downloads/glicko.pdf

It's is not very technical but might have the detail you're after.

Recherché
17-09-2004, 12:29 AM
^ Well I found the article very interesting. :)

Spiny Norman
17-09-2004, 09:01 AM
I wrote a short article which compares Glicko and Elo. You can access it here

http://bjcox.com/downloads/glicko.pdf

It's is not very technical but might have the detail you're after.

Thanks Barry ... that's exactly the level of information I was looking for!

Regards,

Steve

PHAT
17-09-2004, 09:11 AM
Dearest Bill,

I hope this post finds you and your family well, and your labours are being rewarded, by God. I have been keeping well, in spite of my mental handicap, and have been missing you greatly since last we met. Seeing you again as soon as the planets allow, will be a balm for this tired soul.

The specific reason for this correspondence, and I hope you think it not too forward of me, is to ask for your assistance in a scientific matter in which you are renown for your expertise. You will not be aware that in a few days, my family and I will be sojourning to the far reaches of Australis, not to return until al least early in the comming year. During that time, I am hoping to while away a few small interludes between frolic, exploring the nature of chess players performances and how they might be predicted. From our previous correspondence I know that you visit scant regard on such folly where it exceeds the doctrine of St Glicko, but I beseech you, grant me some small asistance. You have in your possession, data that no other man has seen, without which I am bereft of a compass.

There will presently be a PM in your mail box, with the details of the small favour I ask of you.


Yours in Chess and Gods good works,
your loyal friend
Matthew H.J. Sweeney

Bill Gletsos
17-09-2004, 01:55 PM
Not that I take you post seriously but even if you are serious then given your totally abysmal behaviour to me over at least the past 18mths where you have made continually false accusations, indulged in beatups etc I have no intention of providing you with any information whatsoever.

You should of course be able to come up with a theory and generate test data to determine if the theory has even the slightest chance of having any actual validity. After that you can simply obtain crosstables for various tournaments from either the ACF bulletins or the NSWCA web site.

Cat
17-09-2004, 02:19 PM
Not that I take you post seriously but even if you are serious then given your totally abysmal behaviour to me over at least the past 18mths where you have made continually false accusations, indulged in beatups etc I have no intention of providing you with any information whatsoever.

You should of course be able to come up with a theory and generate test data to determine if the theory has even the slightest chance of having any actual validity. After that you can simply obtain crosstables for various tournaments from either the ACF bulletins or the NSWCA web site.

Yes I think it's all gone too far. I feel genuinely sick about the way I handled the discord last week no matter how you behaved, you didn't deserve such a stinging attack. I am genuinely sorry and though I can't really expect you to necessarily accept my apology, at least know that it's heartfelt.

arosar
17-09-2004, 02:55 PM
Hey Bill, I think Matt is serious. Just help him out a bit man.

AR

Bill Gletsos
17-09-2004, 03:13 PM
Yes I think it's all gone too far. I feel genuinely sick about the way I handled the discord last week no matter how you behaved, you didn't deserve such a stinging attack. I am genuinely sorry and though I can't really expect you to necessarily accept my apology, at least know that it's heartfelt.
The personal abuse heaped on me regarding ratings is one thing.

Even though you had as far as I am concerned misrepresented the facts on numerous occasions you have pretty much restricted you attacks to the ratings.

On the other hand Matt has attacked the NSWCA, the ACF and myself relentlessly over the past 18mths based on mis-information, beatups and in some cases just straight untruths.

I wont be providing him with any information.

Bill Gletsos
17-09-2004, 03:33 PM
Hey Bill, I think Matt is serious. Just help him out a bit man.

AR
No AR.
He has subjected the NSWCA, ACF and myself to continually tirades of misinformation, beatups and abuse for over 18mths.
His behaviour does absolutely nothing to improve Australian chess or even as he pretends chess administration.
In fact when given the opportunity to contribute to chess in NSW he did absolutely nothing.

As such he will be getting no assistance from me. Anyway if he is as clever as he pretends then he can easily work on his theory as I described above.

PHAT
17-09-2004, 05:04 PM
Not that I take you post seriously but even if you are serious then given your totally abysmal behaviour to me over at least the past 18mths where you have made continually false accusations, indulged in beatups etc I have no intention of providing you with any information whatsoever.

I thought you might have been more statesmanly than that. Lamenably. I was wrong. You have put your personal battles ahead of Australian Chess. For this you will be condemmed.


You should of course be able to come up with a theory and generate test data to determine if the theory has even the slightest chance of having any actual validity. After that you can simply obtain crosstables for various tournaments from either the ACF bulletins or the NSWCA web site.

That is a horrendous amount of work that has already been collected and collated by the ACF. I would only be dupicating what already exists.

It appears that I will have to make application directly to the ACF for release of the information. I am sure it has more forsight than you have displayed.

PHAT
17-09-2004, 05:12 PM
Yes I think it's all gone too far. I feel genuinely sick about the way I handled the discord last week no matter how you behaved, you didn't deserve such a stinging attack. I am genuinely sorry and though I can't really expect you to necessarily accept my apology, at least know that it's heartfelt.

:rolleyes:

You can turn around, drop your strides and bend over for that particular individual, but all you will get for your prostrating yourself before a man of such character is the snearing smirk of an eletist thug.

Cat
17-09-2004, 05:26 PM
:rolleyes:

You can turn around, drop your strides and bend over for that particular individual, but all you will get for your prostrating yourself before a man of such character is the snearing smirk of an eletist thug.

No I haven't given up the cause, it's just I'm not accustomed to being so mean-spirited and it left a nasty taste in my mouth. Bill, it is the controlling that gets you into strife. If you relaxed a little life would become so much easier for you.

Bill Gletsos
17-09-2004, 05:34 PM
I thought you might have been more statesmanly than that. Lamenably. I was wrong. You have put your personal battles ahead of Australian Chess. For this you will be condemmed.
Your behaviour on this board and prior to that on the ACF boards has been disgraceful.
You have seen fit to make false and misleading cliams, you have abused both the NSWCA and the ACF.
When given the opportunity to make a contribution you did nothing.
If anyone would be condemned it is you.



That is a horrendous amount of work that has already been collected and collated by the ACF. I would only be dupicating what already exists.
To test your theories you dont need the actual data.
You can create test suites.
Graham and I have done that numerous times.
We have also used subsets of actual data for testing.
As such you can use information available on the ACF and NSWCA web sites.
The Acf master files have been available there every rating period for 3 mths with all the information you need.

It was only prior to actual implementation that we have tested against the complete actual data.

As for collating the data that has been done by Graham and I not the ACF.
In fact all of the ratings code of the ratings application and the data structures housing it are of our own design. The development software used was purchased by Graham and I, not the ACF. As such the ownership of the application and the data structures is ours not the ACF's. If at some stage in the future the ACF Council should appoint new ratings officers we will gladly at that time provide the code and data to the responsible parties.


It appears that I will have to make application directly to the ACF for release of the information. I am sure it has more forsight than you have displayed.
Given you disgraceful behaviour in the past and your complete lack of credability I seriously doubt they will force us to provide it.

Bill Gletsos
17-09-2004, 05:42 PM
:rolleyes:

You can turn around, drop your strides and bend over for that particular individual, but all you will get for your prostrating yourself before a man of such character is the snearing smirk of an eletist thug.
Anyone who knows me knows I'm no elitist thug.
You on the other hand have demonstrated repearedly that you are just a rude crude and vulgar do nothing individual.

You have been nothing but a complete disgrace since you first appeared on the BB.

I may not agree with David theories or his manner of misrepresenting facts but at least he doesnt see fit to heap scorn and abuse on all and sundry.

Bill Gletsos
17-09-2004, 06:32 PM
No I haven't given up the cause, it's just I'm not accustomed to being so mean-spirited and it left a nasty taste in my mouth. Bill, it is the controlling that gets you into strife. If you relaxed a little life would become so much easier for you.
I only appear to be in so called "strife" with you and Matt.
That to me is no problem at all. ;)

As for life being easier, it isnt difficult at the moment.

PHAT
18-09-2004, 07:48 AM
Your behaviour on this board and prior to that on the ACF boards has been disgraceful.
You have seen fit to make false and misleading cliams, you have abused both the NSWCA and the ACF.
When given the opportunity to make a contribution you did nothing.


Throw enough mud and it will stick. I have said nothing about the NSWCA or ACF that was false. I have argued my point which usually means leaving the opposite point to be argued by their appologists. You may say that I am being "misleading" to do so, but that is politics.



To test your theories you dont need the actual data.
You can create test suites. Derr, I know that.

Graham and I have done that numerous times.
We have also used subsets of actual data for testing.
No joke.

As such you can use information available on the ACF and NSWCA web sites.
The Acf master files have been available there every rating period for 3 mths with all the information you need.
I know all this.


It was only prior to actual implementation that we have tested against the complete actual data.

That is also my intention.


As for collating the data that has been done by Graham and I not the ACF.
In fact all of the ratings code of the ratings application and the data structures housing it are of our own design. The development software used was purchased by Graham and I, not the ACF.
Irrelevant. The you have acted in a voluteer capacity, but all data remains the property of the ACF.

As such the ownership of the application and the data structures is ours not the ACF's. That is true, but the actual data belong to the ACF.
Given your disgraceful behaviour in the past and your complete lack of credability I seriously doubt they will force us to provide it. You wouldn't want to put a bet on that, would you. :cool:


Now, back to business. All I was goibg to ask for was a single data group, the the performance ratings for the last rating period. Not a big ask. In fact it is two just xls columns - player ID and performance. You have this info in half a dozen key strokes, and you could have emailed it to me in just as few. However, you seem to put your personal issues with BB flame wars and public accountablitiy ahead of you responsibility to Australian chess, as the ACF ratings officer. Your capacity as ACF ratings officer does not extend to punishing people who m you are having issues with. You are deliberately standing in the way of possible progress. DR is right to remind you that you are "controlling". The trouble with you, Bill, is that you have not come to terms with the fact that you cannot control people.(!) WE are not code. (!)

Bill Gletsos
18-09-2004, 12:45 PM
Throw enough mud and it will stick. I have said nothing about the NSWCA or ACF that was false. I have argued my point which usually means leaving the opposite point to be argued by their appologists. You may say that I am being "misleading" to do so, but that is politics.
Incorrect.
You have deliberately said things that were blatantly untrue. Just one example is your comments regarding the NSWJCL funding to juniors competing OS.


Derr, I know that.
In which case you should be able to do the same thing.


No joke.
Exactly, no joke.


I know all this.
Well then you can do just that.


That is also my intention.
It is unnecessary until you can prove your theory has the silghest validity by doing all the above things first.


Irrelevant. The you have acted in a voluteer capacity, but all data remains the property of the ACF.

That is true, but the actual data belong to the ACF.
There is data and then there is data.
When we took over the ACF Ratings all we received was the old turbo pascal programs and the ACF master file. This just contains player id, name, sex state, club and old and new rating, games played and date last played.

Any other data we may generate is incidental and not the ACF's.


You wouldn't want to put a bet on that, would you. :cool:
Many ACF council members would have read your rubbish on this BB. You have no credability.


Now, back to business. All I was goibg to ask for was a single data group, the the performance ratings for the last rating period. Not a big ask. In fact it is two just xls columns - player ID and performance. You have this info in half a dozen key strokes, and you could have emailed it to me in just as few. However, you seem to put your personal issues with BB flame wars and public accountablitiy ahead of you responsibility to Australian chess, as the ACF ratings officer. Your capacity as ACF ratings officer does not extend to punishing people who m you are having issues with. You are deliberately standing in the way of possible progress. DR is right to remind you that you are "controlling". The trouble with you, Bill, is that you have not come to terms with the fact that you cannot control people.(!) WE are not code. (!)
You have no trustworthiness when it comes to private emails. You publish theor contents as you see fit. You make false and misleading statements.
You have been a complete and utter disgrace since you first appeared on the old ACF BB.
My accountability is to the ACF Council not to you.
You have no credability.
You demonstrated this year to the whole of the NSWCA Councils and others that you are nothing but a do nothing blowhard intent only on beatups and stirring.

Spiny Norman
19-09-2004, 06:01 PM
I wrote a short article which compares Glicko and Elo. You can access it here

http://bjcox.com/downloads/glicko.pdf

It's is not very technical but might have the detail you're after.


Hi Barry,

Just spent a profitable few moments looking at your website. Downloaded the ACF Master List and, lo and behold, I discovered (after manipulating the data in Excel a little):

1334 ?? VIC Frost, Stephen

The ACF keeps records for a long time!!! Last time I played in a rated tournament was probably mid eighties I would think.

If I start playing again ... does I start from 1334 and work my way up, or does some other rule come into force?

<laughing at self>So, this makes me the 9,518th ranked player in Australia, not counting unrated, new and overseas players!</laughing at self>

Cool!!!

Cheers,

Frosty

Bill Gletsos
19-09-2004, 07:06 PM
Since Barry is not currently showing the September 2004 master file on his web site then the ratings are incorrect for long inactive players. Refer to ACF bulletin #276 on the ACF web site for details.

Your current rating is 1114??.

Spiny Norman
19-09-2004, 07:20 PM
Your current rating is 1114??.

Jeepers ... does it waste away gradually then?

I'd better do something about that.

starter: Expect me down @ Box Hill some time in the next couple of weeks. I've rounded up a couple of mates who say they're interested in helping get a small club started @ Croydon. I think I'll bring them down and we can refresh our memory as to how to play ... and hopefully you can help us get to grips with how best to organise/administer a club.

Cheers,

Frosty

Bill Gletsos
19-09-2004, 07:22 PM
Jeepers ... does it waste away gradually then?
No. There was a stage back in April 2000 where we actually added points to players but decided to recently adjust that decision for inactive players.
As I said read ACF Bulletin #276.

Spiny Norman
19-09-2004, 08:00 PM
No. There was a stage back in April 2000 where we actually added points to players but decided to recently adjust that decision for inactive players.
As I said read ACF Bulletin #276.

I guess I just need to start playing again and generate a current rating, whatever that may be.

Cheers,

Frosty

P.S. I had a look at the Bulletin you mentioned ... thanks.

Rincewind
19-09-2004, 08:06 PM
Since Barry is not currently showing the September 2004 master file on his web site then the ratings are incorrect for long inactive players. Refer to ACF bulletin #276 on the ACF web site for details.

Your current rating is 1114??.

Yeah, I think I have the files in the directory but have not got around to indexing them no the page as yet. Who said a content managed web-site was a good idea anyway?

BTW bjcox.com will experience a short outage while I churn. The good news is afetr the outage downloads from my site will be twice a fast. :cool:

For $20/annum I will also be able to organise reverse DNS. That's only twice what the domain costs me. :hmm:

skip to my lou
19-09-2004, 08:27 PM
For $20/annum I will also be able to organise reverse DNS. That's only twice what the domain costs me. :hmm:

Hopefully your mailbox will start working after that :P

Garvinator
01-06-2005, 11:53 PM
Hello Barry,

I seem to be having problems accessing your website. I type in www.bjcox.com and I get
core-project, uid=0 . more core ...

Rincewind
02-06-2005, 12:18 AM
Hello Barry,

I seem to be having problems accessing your website. I type in www.bjcox.com and I get
core-project, uid=0 . more core ...

Yes it has been hacked. I will not have a chance to restore it from some weeks I suspect. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Garvinator
02-06-2005, 12:20 AM
Yes it has been hacked. I will not have a chance to restore it from some weeks I suspect. Sorry for the inconvenience.
:( :( :(

and to the hackers :evil: :evil: