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firegoat7
09-09-2004, 07:49 PM
This is a hypothetical question.

Does this section of the Australian Chess Federation allow a section of the Australian Chess Community to bypass their state association, entering into a direct relationship with the ACF?

Would an imaginary chess company/business like Chesspuppets inc be allowed to join the ACF directly?

Would an imaginary self sufficent club like say Square Mountain Chess Club be allowed to deal directly with the ACF?

If any of these answers are no, Is that decisional justification political or legal?

Cheers FG7

Kevin Bonham
09-09-2004, 08:15 PM
This is a hypothetical question.

Does this section of the Australian Chess Federation allow a section of the Australian Chess Community to bypass their state association, entering into a direct relationship with the ACF?


No. Does not represent a "special aspect of chess"


Would an imaginary chess company/business like Chesspuppets inc be allowed to join the ACF directly?

No. Does not represent a "special aspect of chess"


Would an imaginary self sufficent club like say Square Mountain Chess Club be allowed to deal directly with the ACF?

No. Ditto to above.


If any of these answers are no, Is that decisional justification political or legal?

It would be legal if it really came to it. Special aspects of chess are things like junior, women's and correspondence chess leagues. Clubs etc are not special aspects, they are just clubs. The NSWJCL is an associated body under this rule.

Associated body status just means you can attend meetings and get minutes. It conveys no voting rights.

firegoat7
09-09-2004, 08:59 PM
Associated body status just means you can attend meetings and get minutes. It conveys no voting rights.

Does it include a chess rating?

Cheers FG7

firegoat7
10-09-2004, 10:04 AM
No. Does not represent a "special aspect of chess"


It would be legal if it really came to it. Special aspects of chess are things like junior, women's and correspondence chess leagues. Clubs etc are not special aspects, they are just clubs. The NSWJCL is an associated body under this rule.

Associated body status just means you can attend meetings and get minutes. It conveys no voting rights.

So Kevin, I take it that this means Chess discount sales colud not be regarded as a 'special aspect'?

Would a club that has other clubs affiliated to it be regarded as a 'special aspect'?

What about a business like Chesspuppets inc, if it had a schools competition that it ran would it be a 'special aspect'?

Does the NSWJCL get its games rated directly by the ACF?

Could you please define clearly for me -what it is that makes something 'special aspect'- you gave me examples,(which I appreciate), but what is the essence or criteria that these examples meet?

Cheers FG7

ursogr8
10-09-2004, 10:13 AM
Does it include a chess rating?

Cheers FG7

geez fg7, you sure do post in hypotheticals and circles. What is this thread about?

If your end-point is to object to non-affiliated Clubs being able to have games rated then I will be on your side as I think this is 'giving away' our most valued product. If this is the point then I will post the (easiest) solution to your problem.

Carry on.


starter

Commentator
10-09-2004, 10:45 AM
This is a hypothetical question.

Does this section of the Australian Chess Federation allow a section of the Australian Chess Community to bypass their state association, entering into a direct relationship with the ACF?

Would an imaginary chess company/business like Chesspuppets inc be allowed to join the ACF directly?

Would an imaginary self sufficent club like say Square Mountain Chess Club be allowed to deal directly with the ACF?

If any of these answers are no, Is that decisional justification political or legal?

Cheers FG7

Is this an official Melbourne Chess Club approach to bypass C. Victoria?

C

Bill Gletsos
10-09-2004, 10:46 AM
Does the NSWJCL get its games rated directly by the ACF?
No.
The NSWJCL submits its games via the NSWCA Ratings Officer.

firegoat7
10-09-2004, 11:20 AM
No.
The NSWJCL submits its games via the NSWCA Ratings Officer.
Thank you Bill- a direct answer! :P
Im not sure if this conflicts with kevins claim yet, so I will wait for his responses and hopefully he can reflect on what you have just said.

Cheers FG7

Ian Rout
10-09-2004, 12:00 PM
I thought I might better understand this discussion if I knew what 3c(iii) actually is, so I looked it up and discovered the following


3c. The Federation may grant the status of Associated Body to an organisation which:

...

iii. represents special aspects of chess.

I may have missed it but is there a list somewhere of the Associated Bodies? That may give a hint of how it works in practice. Also since we have heard what benefits they don't get, what is the advantage, other than getting minutes and attending meetings?

Bill Gletsos
10-09-2004, 12:06 PM
Thank you Bill- a direct answer! :P
Im not sure if this conflicts with kevins claim yet, so I will wait for his responses and hopefully he can reflect on what you have just said.

Cheers FG7
I dont see how it conflicts with what Kevin said.
As he noted they just to attend meetings and receive the minutes.
Although they may contribute to the ACF funds via the ACF Admin and School levys they are not actually responsible for the paying of those fees.

That responsability rests with their State bodies. This point was made clear when the Admin fee and the School Levy fee was introduced.

In the case of NSW the NSWJCL pays the rating fees for its events and I believe it contributes 50% of the applicable Schools Levy fee. Kerry Stead can correct me if I wrong here.

Bill Gletsos
10-09-2004, 12:11 PM
I thought I might better understand this discussion if I knew what 3c(iii) actually is, so I looked it up and discovered the following


3c. The Federation may grant the status of Associated Body to an organisation which:

...

iii. represents special aspects of chess.

I may have missed it but is there a list somewhere of the Associated Bodies? That may give a hint of how it works in practice. Also since we have heard what benefits they don't get, what is the advantage, other than getting minutes and attending meetings?
I think the current associated bodies are:
NSWJCL
ACTJCL
AWCL
CCLA

Although they dont get to vote the main advantage of associated bodies status is that they do get to have direct input at the council and national conference meetings as well as in the council email discussions.

firegoat7
12-09-2004, 03:25 PM
I still ahve my fingers crossed that Kevin will answer mine or Ian Routs questions an that Bill's won't be the last word on this subject.

Cheers FG7

ursogr8
12-09-2004, 07:26 PM
I still ahve my fingers crossed that Kevin will answer mine or Ian Routs questions an that Bill's won't be the last word on this subject.

Cheers FG7

I think KB said he was away for a while...Comings and Goings.

Denis_Jessop
12-09-2004, 07:28 PM
This is a hypothetical question.

Does this section of the Australian Chess Federation allow a section of the Australian Chess Community to bypass their state association, entering into a direct relationship with the ACF?

Would an imaginary chess company/business like Chesspuppets inc be allowed to join the ACF directly?

Would an imaginary self sufficent club like say Square Mountain Chess Club be allowed to deal directly with the ACF?

If any of these answers are no, Is that decisional justification political or legal?

Cheers FG7

As FG7 seems unsatisfied by the answers already given by previous correspondents I thought I might put in a contribution that may (or may not) add to what has already been said. By way of explanation/identification, I add that I am the Convenor of the ACF Constitutional Subcommittee and ACT Delegate to the ACF Council.

Clause 3.c.iii. of the Constitution allows the ACF to grant Associated Body (AB) status to "an organisation which ... represents special aspects of chess". I am of the same view as Bill that the only current ABs under that provision or Clauses 3.c.i. or ii. are the NSWJCL, ACTJCL, AWCL and CCLA. As i. and ii. refer to regions, repectively, of Australia or of a State Association, it may be assumed that those bodies all were accepted under cl.3.c.iii.

I should also point out that answering hypothetical questions is not usually wise, as any politician will make clear, especially if he doesn't want to answer the question.

The answers I would give to FG7's 3 questions are as follows:

1. If "a section of the Australian Chess Community" represented a special aspect of chess it would be open to (but not mandatory for) the ACF to grant it Associated Body Status provided that it were an "organisation". The two Junior Chess Leagues that have that status fulfil those requirements. The question of by-passing a State Association does not really arise as an AB has no substantive rights under the Constitution other than to attend, and be heard at, a National Conference (see cl.10.h.v.). Nevertheless cl.3.c.ii. recognises that where representation of part of the region of a State Association is involved, the State Association's consent is needed. By implication no such consent is needed where the AB represents a special aspect of chess.

2. If a "chess company/business" fulfilled the requirements of cl.3.c.iii. it would be open to the ACF to grant it AB status. It would not be accurate to describe this as "joining" the ACF as the AB would not be a member of the ACF and would have only limited rights by reason of its status as an AB. In my view it is unlikely that a particular business would be given AB status but each case must be considered on its circumstances, hence the caveat about answering hypothetical questions. Were there, say, an Association of Australian Chess Retailers it would be arguable that it might have a better chance of recognition.

3. A "self sufficent club" would, in my view, be most unlikely to be granted AB status unless it existed in a part of Australia not covered by an existing State Association. In that case, cl.3.c.i. would be the appropriate provision, not c.iii. A club of the kind referred to by FG7 would almost certainly not represent a special aspect of chess. Yet even here one must tread with caution. For example, a club for blind players only, being the only such club in a State, might arguably represent a special interest, just as the junior chess leagues do now. I mention, by way of historical interest, that the Canberra Chess Club, then the only chess club in the ACT, had observer status with the ACF in the 1950s.

In a sense, FG7's questions seem misconceived. That is, he(?) seems to assume that an AB has some relationship with the ACF that gives it substantive rights or benefits. As I have mentioned in answer to questions 1 and 2, an AB has very limited rights under the Constitution to attend, and be heard at, National Conferences though customarily they are also given the benefit of observer status at Council meetings. The granting of AB status is rather a recognition by the ACF that an AB has something to contribute to Australian chess and so is appropriately granted a voice whereby to make its contribution. It is not a grant of power as the AB has no voting rights.

As regards FG's query whether an ACF decision on an application for AB status would be politically or legally based, I can only say that, as an Association delegate, I would consider the application on its merits in light of the provisions of the ACF Constitution and vote accordingly. I assume other Association delegates and the Executive would act similarly. Whether the resultant decision were interpreted as political or legal is a matter for others.

Denis Jessop

Kevin Bonham
13-09-2004, 03:34 AM
Thank you Bill- a direct answer! :P
Im not sure if this conflicts with kevins claim yet,

It doesn't.