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View Full Version : Carlsen drops out of world championship



Igor_Goldenberg
05-11-2010, 06:44 PM
That's quite a bomb. According to Chessbase he sent a letter to FIDE dropping out. Here is the article (http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6789)

Kevin Bonham
05-11-2010, 07:30 PM
I'm a bit disappointed about this really. The current FIDE system isn't perfect but it's so much better than their knockout rubbish, and now we have a player who may well have won the title pulling out and proposing to replace it with the system used for Mexico 2007.

That 2RR tournament where Anand became World Champion was a crashingly dull event in which Anand became World Champion by virtue of scoring one more point than the incumbent, Kramnik, against the three worst performing players in the tournament. I prefer the tradition that to take the world title you should beat the champion directly.

I think there's a bit of a mini-Fischer thing going on here and the disappointing aspect of it is that whoever now wins the World Championship in the current cycle will have a cloud over their achievement.

ER
05-11-2010, 08:09 PM
I can already feel the disappointment amongst young players who idealise Magnus.
I also feel that there is a bit of Kasparovian influence there.
Is it like "OK Kirsan boy, you won the election, now beat this"!
I won't be surprised if we have another split on the making!
BTW who's replacing him now? What are the rules in case of a player's withdrawal?

Oepty
05-11-2010, 08:13 PM
Disappointing because it would be interesting to see if Carlsen could excel in matches as he does in normal tournaments. The question will always be there, would Carlsen have won?
Having said that I think the matches as part of candidates cycle are too short, double their length would be good.
Scott

Kevin Bonham
05-11-2010, 08:28 PM
BTW who's replacing him now? What are the rules in case of a player's withdrawal?

I'm pretty sure Grischuk is next cab off the rank since he was placed on standby when Topalov threatened to pull out.


Having said that I think the matches as part of candidates cycle are too short, double their length would be good.

I agree with this totally.

Garvinator
05-11-2010, 09:46 PM
I just hope that fide does not go and change the cycle again based on this.

Kevin Bonham
05-11-2010, 09:56 PM
I just hope that fide does not go and change the cycle again based on this.

If they do the farce will have gone full circle in 48 years:

1962: Fischer threatens not to play in World Championship unless FIDE uses matches instead of round robins.
2010: Carlsen withdraws from World Championship in part because FIDE uses matches instead of round robins.

:rolleyes:

Adamski
06-11-2010, 11:06 AM
That's quite a bomb. According to Chessbase he sent a letter to FIDE dropping out. Here is the article (http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6789)Very sad. Although the letter is from Magnus, are the ideas mainly his coach Garry K's?

Denis_Jessop
06-11-2010, 03:42 PM
Very sad. Although the letter is from Magnus, are the ideas mainly his coach Garry K's?

I'm not sure that GK is still Carlsen's coach. A post by Amiel on his TCG blog on 19 October suggests otherwise.

DJ

Garvinator
11-11-2010, 01:42 AM
Grischuk has been confirmed as Carlsen's replacement.

Tony Dowden
11-11-2010, 07:52 AM
I'm a bit disappointed about this really. The current FIDE system isn't perfect but it's so much better than their knockout rubbish, and now we have a player who may well have won the title pulling out and proposing to replace it with the system used for Mexico 2007.

That 2RR tournament where Anand became World Champion was a crashingly dull event in which Anand became World Champion by virtue of scoring one more point than the incumbent, Kramnik, against the three worst performing players in the tournament. I prefer the tradition that to take the world title you should beat the champion directly.

I think there's a bit of a mini-Fischer thing going on here and the disappointing aspect of it is that whoever now wins the World Championship in the current cycle will have a cloud over their achievement.

Yes, on one level its a bit disappointing but I think we should accept Magnus' claims he would have had trouble being motivated on face value (cf. KM Olympiad for a case in point). After all he's still only 19.

Manack
11-11-2010, 10:40 AM
FIDE response (http://www.fide.com/component/content/article/1-fide-news/4860-fide-announcement-for-the-candidates-matches-2011.html)

Kevin Bonham
20-11-2010, 10:13 PM
Yes, on one level its a bit disappointing but I think we should accept Magnus' claims he would have had trouble being motivated on face value (cf. KM Olympiad for a case in point). After all he's still only 19.

If he'd made motivation problems the face value I would have found that much better. :lol:

The FIDE response is such a load of tripe and there is clearly still quite a lot that is rotten at FIDE level for such a response to appear. It refers to the late 90s/early 00s mass knockout system (with fast time controls, short matches, rapid/blitz/worse deciders) as only a "slight variation" on the previous knockout system, but in fact progression by a series of elimination matches was about the only thing those fake world championship cycles had in common with the FIDE systems existing prior to 1997.

It talks about FIDE's decision to remove the champion's seeding to the final but does so in a very misleading manner. Yes FIDE did abolish seeding to the final in the leadup to their 1999 fake world championship, but that was because they were using the mass knockout system and in that system the champion faced a challenger who had just been through a very gruelling event against a range of opponents with little time to prepare afresh. This was a far, far greater advantage to the champion than existed in the old system and was genuinely unfair. Indeed while Makro argues that Kramnik has supported the right of the champion to be seeded to the final, it was precisely because Karpov was so unfairly advantaged by it in the context of the format in use at the time that Kramnik refused to participate in the 1998 event.

Thus FIDE abolished the champion's right to defend in the late 90s not because the right to defend was itself wrong, but because it was wrong in the context of their hideously flawed system.

The end of Makro's letter basically translates as "We will very likely cave into Magnus's wishes for the next cycle and fiddle with the system again but politically we have to say we are ignoring him."

ER
21-11-2010, 07:02 AM
"We will very likely cave into Magnus's wishes for the next cycle and fiddle with the system again but politically we have to say we are ignoring him."

hehe replace Magnus's name with David Cordover's and you 'll end up with a very sound analogy re CV policies! So it can happen anywhere! :P :owned:

antichrist
21-11-2010, 05:33 PM
coz in today's Ian Rogers column in Sun Herald, Ian reakons that Magnus done it so that he can participate in an alternative match with Anand, as Kasaparov done before, and get big bucks

Kevin Bonham
25-11-2010, 10:11 PM
Radjabov isn't certain Carlsen has formally withdrawn (http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6830), and is also concerned that although FIDE have said they will replace Carlsen with Grischuk, under FIDE's regulations if Carlsen withdraws the match should be a walkover not a repairing.

ER
25-11-2010, 11:11 PM
Radjabov isn't certain Carlsen has formally withdrawn (http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6830), and is also concerned that although FIDE have said they will replace Carlsen with Grischuk, under FIDE's regulations if Carlsen withdraws the match should be a walkover not a repairing.

Kevin, I believe that Radjabov is very concerned about a possible Carlsen's change of mind, since he was paired against him in the original draw. However, what I don't understand is why is Radjabov is now paired vs Kramnik and no Grischuk who replaces Carlsen. Is that based upon some rating differences or was the draw done again from the beginning?

Kevin Bonham
25-11-2010, 11:15 PM
However, what I don't understand is why is Radjabov is now paired vs Kramnik and no Grischuk who replaces Carlsen. Is that based upon some rating differences or was the draw done again from the beginning?

The former. Topalov is ranked 1 and the rest were ranked according to Jan 2010 rating, irrespective of how they qualified. But that is assuming the players are re-ranked following Carlsen's withdrawal at all - which is speculation on Chessbase's part.

Capablanca-Fan
30-11-2010, 07:02 AM
That 2RR tournament where Anand became World Champion was a crashingly dull event in which Anand became World Champion by virtue of scoring one more point than the incumbent, Kramnik, against the three worst performing players in the tournament. I prefer the tradition that to take the world title you should beat the champion directly.
Yes, that's the only way. If Carlsen wins the "title" in another crashingly boring 2RR, there will always be the doubters that claim, with ample justification, that Anand is still World Champion until he is defeated in a decently long match. I recognized Anand only after he beat Kramnik in a match, albeit one too short.

Kevin Bonham
30-11-2010, 10:03 PM
Magnus' blunder by Andy Soltis (http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/magnus_blunder_7wbHi24Pz2Uttj6piDKkVL)

Very short and to the point.

Desmond
01-12-2010, 09:36 AM
Magnus' blunder by Andy Soltis (http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/magnus_blunder_7wbHi24Pz2Uttj6piDKkVL)

Very short and to the point.
Yeah Magnus is being a bit of a sooky-la-la isn't he.

Garvinator
15-12-2010, 07:58 PM
Ok, it is tough to repeat my last effort in this area from a few years back when I said that Moro was a bunny at the top level, but I will have a go. And that 'call' was made when Moro was over 2700 and winning 2nd/3rd tier events.

The results from the current London Classic are starting to show what I, and quite a few other observers suspected, that Carlsen 'pulled out' of the World Championship qualifiers, not because of issues with candidates matches and their structure, but because he knew against Anand and Kramnik he could not cut it in a true match format.

So he is campaigning for a world championship tournament because he thinks that beating up the worst performers is his best chance to be world champion. His results from London are also showing this. He is equal first, but that is from beating up the 'bunnies'.

I wonder what Carlsen's recent record against Topalov is?

Craig_Hall
15-12-2010, 09:47 PM
Going by a search at www.chessgames.com, Carlsen has played Topalov 15 times in the last 3 years i.e. start of 2008 till now, with a score of 10-5 (includes 6 draws) in Carlsen's favour, including 3 draws and a win to Carlsen at the Amber tournaments (Rapid and Blindfold). In classical time controls, Carlsen has an advantage of 7.5 - 3.5 in the last 3 years. 2008 was even (2.5-2.5), and Carlsen won 2009 (3-1) and 2010 (2-0).

Kevin Bonham
15-12-2010, 11:59 PM
Ok, it is tough to repeat my last effort in this area from a few years back when I said that Moro was a bunny at the top level

Indeed, that was a gift that kept on giving. :lol:

I think the thing with Carlsen vs Kramnik is that while many other GMs are hiding under their chairs from the scary superjunior and panicking as if every move is a positional gem (though the Olympiad may well have changed that), Kramnik has the confidence of a former World Champ who has done it all and has no fear of Carlsen. I love watching games between those two because of that.

In fairness to Carlsen re his loss to Anand and his precipitous near-loss to Kramnik in London, both those games were with black.

Garvinator
23-12-2010, 04:44 PM
http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/2010/12/2011-candidates-matches-news.html


Ilyumzhinov holds meeting, Radjabov and Mamedyarov sign contracts

From 3 to 27 May 2011 Kazan, the capital of the Republic of Tatarstan, will host the Candidates Matches 2011, part of the World Chess Championship cycle 2010-2012. FIDE President Kirsan Ilyumzhinov discussed with the President of the Republic of Tatarstan Rustam Minnikhanov the questions in respect of the preparation and holding the Candidates Matches 2011.

The meeting was held in the Government House of the Republic of Tatarstan. Ildar Khalikov, Prime Minister of Tatarstan, Rafis Burganov, Minister of Youth Affairs, Sports and Tourism of Tatarstan and Ilsur Metshin, Mayor of Kazan also took part in the meeting.

Rustam Minnikhanov thanked the FIDE leadership for their choice of Kazan as the venue for the Candidates Matches 2011. President of the Republic of Tatarstan assured that the Matches will be organized on the highest level.

The decision of holding the event in Kazan was made during the FIDE Presidential Board meeting in Tromso, Norway. 8 of the strongest chess players will compete for a spot in the finals of the World Chess Championship 2012; the prize fund will be 500 thousand Euros.

Mamedyarov and Radjabov have already signed contracts for the Candidates Matches

In case Magnus Carlsen refuses to sign contract, he will be replaced by Grischuk. Thus Mamedyarov will face Gelfand, and Radjabov will play with Kramnik. Full pairings for Candidates Matches here.

The final date for signing contracts is December 22nd

Garvinator
04-02-2011, 12:43 AM
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6994

03.02.2011 – It was going to be a World Championship to remember: in the same location as the magnificent Chess Classics, for a prize fund of around two million Euros, tax prepaid. The potential organisers paid a € 50,000 deposit and gave FIDE until January 29th to accept or reject. Neither happened and today the sponsor formally withdrew his offer. Bad news.


3rd February 2011
PRESS RELEASE

Re: FIDE World Chess Championship London 2012

Chess Promotions Ltd has been in discussions with FIDE since February 2010 regarding the staging of the WCC in London. A € 50,000 deposit was paid to FIDE to secure an option on the WCC 2012 match as negotiations commenced and finance was sought.

Having secured the necessary funds, on July 21st 2010, CPL sent FIDE a formal offer and a detailed commercial contract to stage the next WCC match in London with financial terms similar to the 2010 WCC match at Sofia.

Unfortunately agreement could not be reached in the autumn. Following more discussions in London in January, CPL asked FIDE to accept the offer by Saturday 29th January 2011. No such acceptance was forthcoming. Therefore, with regret, CPL has withdrawn its offer in time for the next Executive Board meeting which starts today in Turkey in order to give the EB clarity and the opportunity to consider alternatives. The timeline to stage a WCC match before the Olympic Games in May 2012 is now too short.

CPL remains interested in staging top class events in London. Dates for the 3rd London Chess Classic will be announced shortly. We have registered our interest with FIDE in staging events such as the World Rapid Championship and World Blitz Championship in London and will continue to work on bringing commercial sponsorship to chess in order to benefit our associated charity Chess in Schools and Communities.

Malcolm Pein
CEO Chess Promotions Ltd.

Garvinator
10-02-2011, 02:32 AM
http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/2011/02/fide-shares-facts-about-london-wc-match.html

Open letter of Mr. Israel Gelfer concerning the FWCM 2012
Wednesday, 09 February 2011 13:35


Dear Malcolm,

I received the announcement of Chess Promotions that you are withdrawing your offer to organize the FIDE World Championship match (FWCM) with great disappointment. I would like to provide the chess world with the correct facts which caused this move.

On February 2010 FIDE granted you the option to organize the FWCM "under the same conditions like the Sofia match between Anand and Topalov". On 15 February you signed a memorandum accepting the conditions and regulations of the match and two days later paid a deposit of 50,000 Euro for such option.

After that, for a long period, you have been proposing several changes from the Sofia contract. In July 2010 (after the original deadline was extended by FIDE) you sent to FIDE a different version of the contract with different conditions. For most among this were important financial conditions which had to be clarified first. In a constructive manner FIDE, wishing to hold the match in London, accepted several conditions interalia reducing the prize fund by 20% due to UK taxes not covered by the organisers, reduction of the contribution to FIDE, reduction of the number of principals. In January we met in London when I proposed to discuss the agreement based on the Sofia contract as amended above.

In our meeting both you and Mr. Andrew Finan replied that you only consider the version dictated by you, claiming that they are no substantial differences between the two contracts. You made it very clear, as you recall, that the sponsor of the match "lost interest" in it after the withdrawal of GM Magnus Carlsen and consequently instructed you "not to negotiate at all about anything" i.e. "take it or leave it".

Even after the meeting in London I was trying to solve the problems and I informed FIDE about the situation. The FIDE Secretariat then gave me a list of 36 differences between our version and your proposed contract and 16 changes from your original July draft. Many of which were completely unacceptable to FIDE, interalia FIDE being responsible of player’s taxes in their respective jurisdictions, no liability for any cancellation for any reason and putting FIDE as responsible for several obligations which were and are not in FIDE`s hands.

Moreover, in your contract you change the regulations of the match. Furthermore you have informed us only on 27 January that the players may be liable up to 50% tax. This means that the net prize fund could be as little as near 1.2 million EUR after tax where as our agreement was that you will provide, as in Sofia, a prize fund of 2.0 million EUR after tax. Therefore your statement that the conditions were equal to Sofia was incorrect.

In order to try and solve the problems I asked for an extension of the signing date until the Presidential Board meeting in early February. You were also invited by the FIDE President to come to Antalya so that we could try to reach an agreement. Unfortunately this proposal was rejected and you announced the withdrawal of your offer.

It is clear, and was obvious to me and expressed specifically by you, that the withdrawal of GM Carlsen from the WC cycle meant that the sponsor was no longer interested in sponsoring the match.

I regret that the FIDE World Championship Match, despite all our efforts, will not be organized in London in 2012.

Best regards,
Israel Gelfer
FIDE Vice President

Garvinator
10-02-2011, 02:35 AM
If this reply is accurate, or even close to being accurate, then I think the most concerning part is that Chess Promotions were only interested while Carlsen was part of the world championship cycle.

So had this bid gone ahead, what would Chess Promotions had done if Carlsen went out in the first round of the Candidate matches?

Tony Dowden
10-02-2011, 08:39 AM
Going by a search at www.chessgames.com, Carlsen has played Topalov 15 times in the last 3 years i.e. start of 2008 till now, with a score of 10-5 (includes 6 draws) in Carlsen's favour, including 3 draws and a win to Carlsen at the Amber tournaments (Rapid and Blindfold). In classical time controls, Carlsen has an advantage of 7.5 - 3.5 in the last 3 years. 2008 was even (2.5-2.5), and Carlsen won 2009 (3-1) and 2010 (2-0).

Which amounts to an absolutely crushing superiority for Carlsen over Topalov on a head-to-head basis - quite astonishing at the 2800(ish) level.

ER
10-02-2011, 10:26 AM
Going by a search at www.chessgames.com, Carlsen has played Topalov 15 times in the last 3 years i.e. start of 2008 till now, with a score of 10-5 (includes 6 draws) in Carlsen's favour, including 3 draws and a win to Carlsen at the Amber tournaments (Rapid and Blindfold). In classical time controls, Carlsen has an advantage of 7.5 - 3.5 in the last 3 years. 2008 was even (2.5-2.5), and Carlsen won 2009 (3-1) and 2010 (2-0).

Amazing info thanks!