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antichrist
15-10-2010, 11:44 AM
We all know of Julia Gillard's atheism but we also know that she is an avid Zionist, being a member of that cultural group and visiting via that group.

I have not read the topic much so do tend to take things at face value. Zionists claim that God promised them the land - fair enough one may say at face value, but Julia who does not believe in a God somehow also believes this or somehow accepts Zionism??? I don't understand.

I know there was a big conference of important Jews (Sigmund Freud etc) about a hundred years ago to determine that their being atheist can they still be Jews or not. I guess they would still consider themselves "ethnic Jews" but have not seen results much of that conference.

And of course many of the best atheists are Jews

antichrist
30-10-2010, 07:51 PM
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O101-OrthodoxJudaism.html

Article: Jews for Darwin: evolution, intelligent design, and Orthodox Judaism.(Charles Darwin)
Article from:Skeptic (Altadena, CA) Article date:March 22, 2006Author:Aviezer,


Creation or Evolution?
Does it matter what you believe? Be convinced! Instructive information.
www.ucg.org.au
I AM AN ORTHODOX JEW WHO believes that the Book of Genesis is the word of God. This article--a rebuttal of the article by Alexander Nussbaum in Skeptic (Vol. 12, No. 3) which argued that Orthodox Jews do not accept evolution and other areas of science--will deal with evolution and Intelligent Design. My thesis is that an Orthodox Jew should have no hesitation in accepting the scientific theory of evolution. However, there is every reason for an Orthodox Jew, or any person of faith for that matter, to reject Intelligent Design.

Evolution and Orthodox Judaism

According to Nussbaum: "By definition, Jews who accept evolution are not Orthodox." Nussbaum illustrates his point by presenting me (!) as a typical Orthodox Jewish scientist who denies evolution. He writes: "Professor Nathan Aviezer penned a book in 2001, entitled Fossils and Faith, in which he dismisses evolution and paleontology."

The facts are quite otherwise. In my book, I devote an entire chapter (entitled, "Evolution--Is There a Problem Here?") to demonstrating that there is no contradiction whatsoever between evolution and Orthodox Judaism. The last sentence of that chapter (p. 84) states: "It follows that the religious person has no cause to oppose the scientific findings about evolution." I could list one hundred quotes from my book that treat evolution as a fact.

My colleagues and friends include dozens of Orthodox Jews, both eminent scientists and non-scientists, who accept the theory of evolution as readily as they accept any other well-established scientific theory. They would be amused to learn that they have therefore been reclassified by Nussbaum "by definition" as not being Orthodox Jews.

Nussbaum begins his abstract with the following assertion: "Denial of evolution is a defining characteristic of education in Orthodox Judaism." One may assess the validity of this assertion by considering the two citadels of Orthodox Jewish university education: Bar-Ilan University in Israel and Yeshiva University in New York.
.................................................. .....

unfortunately this guy does not actually describe how one can be both an Orthodox Jew and also an evolutionist - that I consider a contradiction.

Desmond
31-10-2010, 09:30 AM
unfortunately this guy does not actually describe how one can be both an Orthodox Jew and also an evolutionist - that I consider a contradiction.Well given the overwhelming evidence that evolution is fact it is hard not to accept it (though some try to). The pope accepts evolution, is there some reason a Jew should not be able to do likewise?

Igor_Goldenberg
31-10-2010, 11:05 AM
Well given the overwhelming evidence that evolution is fact it is hard not to accept it (though some try to). The pope accepts evolution, is there some reason a Jew should not be able to do likewise?
Judaism does not encourage herd mentality, so every Jew is entitled to make up his mind.

Rincewind
31-10-2010, 12:55 PM
Judaism does not encourage herd mentality, so every Jew is entitled to make up his mind.

Every person is entitled to make up there own mind. People who decide matters of science on articles of faith are just placing limits on themselves.

Orthodox Judaism is a little conservative but most Orthodox leaders are not particularly anti-evolution (not sure who this Alexander Nussbaum mentioned above is but he doesn't seem to be well known). However, there are some Haredi (ultra-conservative) rabbis (e.g. Shafran and the (in)famous Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, now deceased) who are/were very anti-evolution and encourage Jews to oppose it actively.

It is interesting to note that most Jewish leaders (even the anti-evolution ones) are anti-ID. They correctly see that ID is nothing more than fundamentalist Christian doctrine that would be Christian proselytes are trying to get past the first amendment and taught in schools as science.

For examples of Jewish opposition to ID, see the Anti-Discrimination League's website, creationism Q&A

http://www.adl.org/issue_religious_freedom/create/creationism_QA.asp

and the American Jewish Committee's statement applauding the court on their decision preventing ID being taught in Pennsylvania...

http://www.ajc.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=ijITI2PHKoG&b=1531911&ct=1740821

Rincewind
31-10-2010, 01:05 PM
People may be interested in reading Alexander Nussbaum's original article which is available here...

http://www.skeptic.com/the_magazine/featured_articles/v12n03_orthodox_judaism_and_evolution.html

antichrist
31-10-2010, 03:17 PM
People may be interested in reading Alexander Nussbaum's original article which is available here...

http://www.skeptic.com/the_magazine/featured_articles/v12n03_orthodox_judaism_and_evolution.html

What a classic article - it certainly shows that Jews are no more wiser than Gentiles, and as I first thought one cannot be a believing Jew and also be an evolutionist. And if one is an evolutionist they dismiss the whole Genesis story and there goes the foundation for Zionism, Israel and Chosen People.

Yet Julia Gillard - an atheist - can still support Zionism when she dictates that there is no God to give anything to anyone. Beats me, maybe I am just not smart enough.

I disagree with Igor that Judaism does not encourage herd mentality - surely Ultra-Orthodox Jews closing streets on the Sabbath to enforce observance etc is a form of herd mentality.

Rincewind
31-10-2010, 05:02 PM
What a classic article - it certainly shows that Jews are no more wiser than Gentiles, and as I first thought one cannot be a believing Jew and also be an evolutionist.

You should remember that the article looks to be a few years old (c.2002) and the author may not be an expert in Jewish belief.

That being said, there is certainly enough to question Iggy's assertion that "every Jew is entitled to make up his mind." Certainly in the past ultra-orthodox rabbis have discouraged secular education, encouraged the destruction of evolutionary text books and relatively recently banned other pro-evolution books, like those of the Zoo Rabbi, Natan Slifkin. Not exactly the behaviour one would expect from a group that "does not encourage herd mentality."

antichrist
31-10-2010, 05:13 PM
I read an article in SMH how the Orthodox's lack of proper education in religious schools makes them unsuitable for unis and proper jobs etc - so they do rely heavily on welfare tit (to copy Igor's term).

I can remember some reference to big conference about a hundred years ago of famous Jews conferring if it is possible to be atheist (as they were) and still be Jews.

The Israeli Jews in Peace Now and other such groups are to applauded for their even-handedness in realising the effects of Zionism - they have risen above the herd mentality and can look themselves in the eye.

Kevin Bonham
31-10-2010, 05:42 PM
I have not read the topic much so do tend to take things at face value. Zionists claim that God promised them the land - fair enough one may say at face value, but Julia who does not believe in a God somehow also believes this or somehow accepts Zionism??? I don't understand.

Zionism can be a political movement irrespective of belief in the claimed religious foundation.

antichrist
31-10-2010, 07:00 PM
Zionism can be a political movement irrespective of belief in the claimed religious foundation.

On what grounds? Did the politicial movement evolve from the religious story?

To make Zionism stick (if possible) it should be divorced from the Torah - to have intellectual integrity at least.

Kevin Bonham
31-10-2010, 07:11 PM
On what grounds?

Someone might believe there should be a completely sovereign Jewish state without having any adherence to the religion or even agreeing with the historical claims. Typically, such a person would be coming from a perspective of ethnic self-determination - but in the case of Israel there are more than a few practical problems attached to that.


To make Zionism stick (if possible) it should be divorced from the Torah - to have intellectual integrity at least.

Don't some of the ultra-Orthodox types complain that it is too secular as it is?

antichrist
31-10-2010, 07:28 PM
I think a lot of the Russians (for e.g.) only go to Israel for a better life style, better welfare etc, better climate as well and maybe even privileged position if an Ultra. I think they are a lot more arrogant/chauvanistic(?) than Jews from surrounding countries.

In Byron I have met many Israel backpackers (even employed them) and the ones from Morocco etc still love Morocco and are decent enough (except for Zionist question as far as me goes - bad english)

The original Zionism may have even been "secular" - based on needs, but was given a religous story to justify - to maybe a then justice-seeking people.

I was only thinking this arvo in the surf, if the Zionists can claim Israel based on 2,000 years ago, then why can't the American" Indians" also claim America back and treat the interim occupiers (whites in this case) as Israel does the Palestinians. Over the 400 years the Indians probably lost a equal/greater percentage of their population as the Jews did during the Holocaust. Can sound shocking (though not really) but all points are deserving of consideration.

Rincewind
01-11-2010, 08:47 AM
I was only thinking this arvo in the surf, if the Zionists can claim Israel based on 2,000 years ago, then why can't the American" Indians" also claim America back and treat the interim occupiers (whites in this case) as Israel does the Palestinians. Over the 400 years the Indians probably lost a equal/greater percentage of their population as the Jews did during the Holocaust. Can sound shocking (though not really) but all points are deserving of consideration.

You only just thought of this although this is the point brought up by just about EVERY country that America has meddled in. Not to mention Native American activism which has been gaining some traction for a while now. A similar argument can be levelled at (just about) any country of course, including Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Norway, etc. Perhaps Iceland is one of the few exceptions.

The difference with Israel is its relatively recent arrival as a new sovereign state and the long gap between the last time there was a self-governing Israeli state. Also the power brokers in the UN, especially Britain and America, were heavily invested in the outcome.

antichrist
01-11-2010, 06:38 PM
You only just thought of this although this is the point brought up by just about EVERY country that America has meddled in. Not to mention Native American activism which has been gaining some traction for a while now. A similar argument can be levelled at (just about) any country of course, including Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Norway, etc. Perhaps Iceland is one of the few exceptions.

The difference with Israel is its relatively recent arrival as a new sovereign state and the long gap between the last time there was a self-governing Israeli state. Also the power brokers in the UN, especially Britain and America, were heavily invested in the outcome.

The part I have bolded of course makes it easier to turn back the clock - not saying that it will happen. But because Israel's creation was done by a UN vote (that UK abstained from) maybe legally it also can be dissolved by a UN vote (ifs and buts of course), that is why is different to other states' creation. In that recent international court (forget which one) decision that enabled part of Serbia to be partitioned off it has set a precedent that maybe Palestinians could use in the future, to partition off parts of Israel that has a Palestinian majority - thereby making Israel look like Swiss cheese and a security nightmare. What a tangled web they weave. Esp if and when USA loses it's dominance due to financial collapse - in our children's lifetime. As well as the Palestinians out breeding the Chosen people will become a more imp factor with time.

antichrist
01-06-2011, 02:32 AM
http://iajv.squarespace.com/peter/?currentPage=3

Here is a fantastic site by Doctor Peter Slezak, tomorrow I will bring forth his arguments and discuss, somehow they got deleted tonight