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Kevin Bonham
28-06-2010, 10:47 PM
Interested to see if anyone has an answer to this one or has seen an answer to it in problemist literature.

The challenge is to make moves by each side so that a queen becomes trapped and will then be lost (with best play) as quickly as possible. The definition of "trapped" is as follows:

1. No matter what move the trapped side makes, the queen can be taken by the opponent next move.

2. The compensation will not be remotely sufficient (eg it is not a queen swap or queen for rook and bishop).

3. The "trap" is not a result of forcing the other side to take the queen (eg unguarded Qxf7+ forcing Kxf7).

4. The trap is not a result of the queen being pinned on the king, or of a queen move that loses the queen being the only move to stop a mate.

This challenge is inspired by a woeful casual game tonight in which I managed to trap my own queen on move eight. It had ten legal moves all of which would result in its capture, as would leaving it where it was. However I am sure we can do a few moves better.

Max Illingworth
28-06-2010, 11:54 PM
1.e3 e5 2.Nc3 d5 3.Qf3 e4 4.Qf4 Bd6 traps the queen in four moves whilst meeting requirements 1-4.

Alternatively, the solution 1.e4 e6 2.d4 Qf6 3.e5 Qf5 4.Bd3 is a half-move faster.

Kevin Bonham
29-06-2010, 03:31 AM
Alternatively, the solution 1.e4 e6 2.d4 Qf6 3.e5 Qf5 4.Bd3 is a half-move faster.

Nice.

This was the casual game that "inspired" this thread (actually it was move eight not move seven):

1.e4 c5 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.c4 d6 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Nge2 Bg4 7.Qb3 Na5 8.Qb5+ Bd7! DQ 0-1

Igor_Goldenberg
29-06-2010, 12:34 PM
1.c4 c6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Bg4 5.h3 Bxf3 6.Qxf3 e6 7.b3 Nbd7 8.Bb2 Bd6 9.Be2?? Ne5

It actually happened in my tournament game. The grandmaster playing white did not fall for a trap, continued 9.g4 and won the game after about 90 moves.

Aaron Guthrie
29-06-2010, 03:26 PM
1.b3 Nf6 2.d3 Nd5 3.Nd2 Nc3

Aaron Guthrie
29-06-2010, 03:40 PM
1.c4 b6 2.Qa4 Nc6 3.Qxa7 Ba6

Aaron Guthrie
29-06-2010, 05:09 PM
1.e4 e5 2.Qh5 d6 3.f3 g6

Kevin Bonham
29-06-2010, 06:36 PM
Top work THE. Third one is excellent. I was trying to get an idea with Qh5 to fly last night but just couldn't get it done with only three white moves. I'd end up with something like:

1.e3 g5 2.Qh5 h6 3.g4 Nf6 4.h3

where white has trapped white's own queen but it's black to move (and take it).

First one I am now pretty sure I've seen somewhere before.

Second one is very inventive and deserves credit for the most ridiculous series of moves technically meeting my criteria. :lol:

Aaron Guthrie
29-06-2010, 09:03 PM
First one I am now pretty sure I've seen somewhere before.I am sure I have seen that pattern before, but not sure if it is that exact position.

Capablanca-Fan
30-06-2010, 02:09 AM
This is actually a game from the Logan 2000 handicap tourney, played around the year 2000:
J. Sarfati – G. Warta
1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bg4 5.Ne5 Bf5 6.Bxb7 Nbd7 7.Nc6 Line

Here is an old game from Wellington, New Zealand, from the early 1990s IIRC:
R. Sutton – A. Jordan
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nxe4 4.Nc3 Nxc3 5.dxc3 Qe7 6.Ng5 f6 7.Bf7+ Kd8 8.Ne6+

An old trap, from Paris, about 1924:
Gibaud – Lazard
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nd2 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.h3 Ne3

Kevin Bonham
30-06-2010, 03:04 AM
Of those the first one meets my criteria. The second doesn't because the queen is forced to sacrifice itself to stop mate. The third doesn't because the queen can be saved albeit with a minor technical hitch to follow. :lol: Still both are amusing examples of quick queen loss.

It's also worth noting that the authenticity of "Gibaud-Lazard" is widely disputed. As Tim Krabbe writes:


But nothing will prevent "Gibaud - Lazard, Paris 1924, 4 moves" being published as the shortest decisive "master game": 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nd2 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.h3 Ne3 and White resigned. Almost everything is incorrect about that statement: it was not a master game, White was perhaps not poor Gibaud, it was not played in 1924, it was 5 instead of 4 moves - and even at 4 moves, it would have had to share honours with other games.

What is true is that in his autobiography, Lazard gave a friendly game "Amateur" - Lazard, played in Paris, "around 1922", which went 1.d4 d5 2.b3 Nf6 3.Nd2 e5 4.dxe5 Ng4 5.h3 Ne3 and White resigned. Here, 5.h3 is not as stupid a blunder as in the shorter version, because White could at least have hoped to gain a tempo after 5...Nxe5 6.Bb2. "Amateur" becoming Gibaud, and Gibaud the proverbial patzer, is not Lazard's fault; he mentioned "a very strong player whose talent is done no justice by this game."

In fact, Gibaud was champion of France no less than four times. He didn't like this 4-move game going around with his name attached. And when in 1937 the British magazine Chess published it as "the shortest tournament game ever played, from a Paris Championship", he protested his innocence.

In the next issue, Chess answered: "He never lost any tournament game in four moves. Searching his memory he recalls a skittles he once played against Lazard, a game of the most light-hearted variety, in which, his attention momentarily distracted by the arrival of his friend Muffang, he played a move which allowed a combination of this genre - but certainly not four moves after the commencement of the game. Rumour, he said, must have woven strange tales about this game."

Capablanca-Fan
30-06-2010, 03:38 AM
Of those the first one meets my criteria. The second doesn't because the queen is forced to sacrifice itself to stop mate.
But it doesn't stop mate; it is just the only legal move available in this position and prevents it being a mate in the first place.


The third doesn't because the queen can be saved albeit with a minor technical hitch to follow. :lol: Still both are amusing examples of quick queen loss.

It's also worth noting that the authenticity of "Gibaud-Lazard" is widely disputed. As Tim Krabbe writes:
Thanx; I'm happy to have this posthumous injustice against M. Gibaud rectified.

Kevin Bonham
30-06-2010, 06:54 PM
But it doesn't stop mate; it is just the only legal move available in this position and prevents it being a mate in the first place.

OK, to avert mate with that move. I wasn't clear about that in my requirements; after all, the vast majority of cases of giving up a queen where that is the only legal move will result in the other side delivering forced mate eventually.

I've had a look at some quick traps for other pieces. Maybe others can improve on these.

Knight

1.Nf3 Nh6 2.Nh4 Rg8 (or others) 3.f3 g5 knight is doomed

Bishop

Again there are 3-move solutions but the only ones I've found are inelegant:

1.e4 c5 2.Bc4 b5 3.Bb3 c4

I would prefer a solution where the winning side does not leave material en prise along the way.

Rook

Here there are 3-move solutions for white but again they tend to be crude and unsatisfactory.

1.b3 e6 2.Bb2 Bb4 3.Bxg7

But that is really a bit silly because the rook hasn't moved and doesn't have options.

1.e4 b6 2.Ba6 Bb7 3.Bxb7

The only thing to be said for this one is that it is said to have occurred in a real postal game after Black sent the conditional "2. Any Bb7". Source: Compleat Chess Addict so not necessarily reliable!

1.Nc3 c5 2.Nb5 Qc7 3.Nxc7+

Now that's just being ridiculous since it both takes the queen and is check.

1.Nf3 d6 2.Ng5 Kd7 3.Nxf7

A slightly less ridiculous version but still a fork on the queen and still with the rook not so much trapped as never having moved in the first place.

Pawn

Haven't tried this one yet. (I suggest for this one that the "trapping" move must not be check.)

Aaron Guthrie
30-06-2010, 08:11 PM
1.Nf3 e5 2.c4 e4 3.Ne5 d6

1.d3 Na6 2.Bf4 c6 3.Bb8 d6

edit- I presume I have seen the first one somewhere.

Igor_Goldenberg
30-06-2010, 10:46 PM
1.Nf3 e5 2.c4 e4 3.Ne5 d6

A very natural and quite probable sequence of moves

Max Illingworth
30-06-2010, 10:54 PM
All the more so if White plays 1.c4 e4 2.Nf3 e4 3.Ne5 d6.

Pawn: The fastest solution I have found is 1.f4 e6 2.b4 Bd6, but I'm not sure if it meets all four requirements.

Edit: If the above solution doesn't meet the requirements, then I think 1.f4 d5 2.b4 Qd6 does.

Kevin Bonham
01-07-2010, 12:36 AM
All the more so if White plays 1.c4 e4 2.Nf3 e4 3.Ne5 d6.

Pawn: The fastest solution I have found is 1.f4 e6 2.b4 Bd6, but I'm not sure if it meets all four requirements.

Edit: If the above solution doesn't meet the requirements, then I think 1.f4 d5 2.b4 Qd6 does.

Both of those are forks, in that no matter what move white chooses, white must lose a pawn. But neither pawn is individually trapped so that that specific pawn must go next move. Also, after 1.f4 d5 2.b4 Qd6 white can play 3.Nc3 and in neither case does the capture of the pawn immediately win material without compensation. (Though perhaps black will pick up another pawn pretty fast.)

What I'm after for pawn is a situation where a specific pawn is trapped so it will be lost for nothing whatever the player to move does. Something like:

1.f4 g6 2.f5 Nc6 3.f6 e6

technically qualifies but it's a silly case since the pawn could have been taken the move before anyway.

It seems like the potential of pawns to protect each other means this will have to take three moves, since any pawn on the 4th or 5th rank might be protected by another pawn. But perhaps there is some way around that.

Adamski
01-07-2010, 12:45 AM
I've had a look at some quick traps for other pieces. Maybe others can improve on these.

...
Rook

Here there are 3-move solutions for white but again they tend to be crude and unsatisfactory.

1.b3 e6 2.Bb2 Bb4 3.Bxg7
If you change that to 1 b4 and 2...Bxb4, then I have played it - and fortunately as White. It was a 5 minute game IIRC. I think I won in 4 moves.

Kevin Bonham
01-07-2010, 12:50 AM
If you change that to 1 b4 and 2...Bxb4, then I have played it - and fortunately as White. It was a 5 minute game IIRC. I think I won in 4 moves.

Yes; I have seen it several times and it even cropped up in this year's Tas Champs where the victim was an improving junior who should have known better.

In the late 80s or very early 90s there was a curious case in Tassie where a c.1600s player (that is much stronger than 1600 now) who was rumoured to have a personal dream of playing against Botvinnik, came up against a c.1000 strength player with the surname Botvinik (with one n), who played 1.b4 against him and won the rook within the first 7-8 moves. However the victim fought back and eventually despite his dream turning into a parallel universe nightmare, he still managed a draw.

Capablanca-Fan
01-07-2010, 06:10 AM
I think that from now on, solutions should not involve putting the trapped piece en prise.

Max Illingworth
01-07-2010, 08:32 AM
Pawn: 1.f4 h5 2.f5 d5.

Kevin Bonham
01-07-2010, 05:15 PM
I think that from now on, solutions should not involve putting the trapped piece en prise.

I agree.


Pawn: 1.f4 h5 2.f5 d5.

This is an improvement in that a pawn will certainly be lost, but again, the f-pawn itself specifically isn't immediately trapped (ie white can prevent the f-pawn being soundly taken next move by choosing to lose a different pawn instead.)

Oepty
01-07-2010, 08:14 PM
This traps a pawn but white appears to have some compensation so I am not sure it quite meets the criteria.

1.a4 e6 2. a5 d5 3. e3 Bd7 4. a6 b5 5. g3 Qc8

This is one move quicker and White has less for the pawn.

1.a4 c5 2.a5 b5 3. h4 Nc6 4. a6 Qb6

Scott

Kevin Bonham
01-07-2010, 10:06 PM
This traps a pawn but white appears to have some compensation so I am not sure it quite meets the criteria.

1.a4 e6 2. a5 d5 3. e3 Bd7 4. a6 b5 5. g3 Qc8

White can immediately play 6.Nc3 threatening that if black takes the pawn, white plays Bxb5 recovering it.


This is one move quicker and White has less for the pawn.

1.a4 c5 2.a5 b5 3. h4 Nc6 4. a6 Qb6



I quite like that one, although there is still a minor flaw. That is that white can prevent the a-pawn being taken immediately without compensation by playing 5.b4 or 5.d4, threatening to respond to Bxa6 with b/dxc5 which the queen cannot take back as it is overloaded. These moves are only delaying actions since white will end up losing more pawns and the a-pawn remains stuck but conditions 1 and 2 combined call for the trapped pawn to be able to be taken straightaway without adequate compensation.

Oepty
02-07-2010, 10:36 PM
White can immediately play 6.Nc3 threatening that if black takes the pawn, white plays Bxb5 recovering it.

Yes you are right. Black can play 6... c6 but is really tiked up in knots and white as more than enough compensation.



I quite like that one, although there is still a minor flaw. That is that white can prevent the a-pawn being taken immediately without compensation by playing 5.b4 or 5.d4, threatening to respond to Bxa6 with b/dxc5 which the queen cannot take back as it is overloaded. These moves are only delaying actions since white will end up losing more pawns and the a-pawn remains stuck but conditions 1 and 2 combined call for the trapped pawn to be able to be taken straightaway without adequate compensation.

I totally missed your idea so yes it fails which is pity because I really liked this one.
I have not given up.
Scott