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Allan Menham
15-02-2010, 07:39 PM
The rules basically state that in competition, you make your move ,stop your clock which starts the opponents clock, then record your move on the scoresheet.

As a matter of interest, what happens if your opponent writes various moves down on a seperate piece of paper, then makes his move, stops his clock and then writes down the official move he makes on the official scoresheet?

Just curious

CameronD
15-02-2010, 07:41 PM
The rules basically state that in competition, you make your move ,stop your clock which starts the opponents clock, then record your move on the scoresheet.

As a matter of interest, what happens if your opponent writes various moves down on a seperate piece of paper, then makes his move, stops his clock and then writes down the official move he makes on the official scoresheet?

Just curious

This is note making and clearly outlawed.

Adamski
15-02-2010, 09:52 PM
This is note making and clearly outlawed.Yes, Cam is right. Even writing one move down on an official or unofficial scoresheet or piece of paper before playing that move is outlawed by the new rules (though personally I do not think it should be on the official scoresheet, as this can be a great blunder prevention measure, and neither did GM Alexander Kotov in his day).

Kevin Bonham
15-02-2010, 10:03 PM
It should be noted that even under the old rules it was not permitted to write down variations or alternative moves and cross them out, as that was making notes and the scoresheet could only be used for writing down actual moves, not moves that were not actually made. I remember one player under the old rules who would write down two candidate moves then cross one out; I warned them that this was illegal.

The somewhat grey area arose when players were writing down moves before playing them, then thinking about the move they had written down and almost always playing it, but changing their mind if it turned out to be a gross blunder. There was a widespread (and correct) view that this was technically a form of note-making and therefore technically against the rules. In practice though, action was not taken against players who only did it at low level, as opposed to those changing many moves per game.

SHump
17-02-2010, 08:17 AM
A new but mature member of our club entered a recent tournament, but the member did not know about or how to go about recording of moves. So we did a little coaching before the event. So despite various misgivings and false starts and a lot of uncertainty on the player's part, the player did record moves during their games.

However, the player only recorded their moves and not their opponents. I DID tell the player to record their moves and that is precisely what transpired. I realise that the rules do say record yours and your opponent's moves, but I think we will have to move in small measures to get the whole game recorded, so this is a work in progress (half a score sheet must be better than NONE). BTW no-one objected to this half-score sheet approach.

Just thought this would be a little amusing for the readers, and if others have come across this before.

Adamski
19-02-2010, 02:57 PM
Interesting. Reminds me of something sort of related to this. There is a player I know who still records all his games in descriptive notation. Is this now outlawed by FIDE? Could his opponent insist he hands in a scoresheet in algebraic to win a game?

Capablanca-Fan
19-02-2010, 03:50 PM
Interesting. Reminds me of something sort of related to this. There is a player I know who still records all his games in descriptive notation. Is this now outlawed by FIDE? Could his opponent insist he hands in a scoresheet in algebraic to win a game?
He is technically violating the law. Article 8:1 (http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=124&view=article):


In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibily as possible, in the algebraic notation (See Appendix C), on the scoresheet prescribed for the competition.

In internal club events, the policy might be relaxed, but not for any ACF-rated event.

Adamski
19-02-2010, 04:11 PM
Thanks Jono. That confirms what i thought.
Actually, I have never heard anyone complain when someone writes their scoresheet in descriptive notation. But as you say it would not have been ok at something like the Aus Champs!

CameronD
19-02-2010, 10:56 PM
There was/is a player Ive seen around here who refuses to score in grand prix events. He DEMANDS from the arbiter to be penalized time instead. It seems arbiters cave in to get his entry fees.

Kevin Bonham
20-02-2010, 10:54 AM
There was/is a player Ive seen around here who refuses to score in grand prix events. He DEMANDS from the arbiter to be penalized time instead. It seems arbiters cave in to get his entry fees.

We had one of those at our club several years ago, quite a strong player but eccentric. Claimed to have a dyslexia-related condition that meant that the effort of writing down moves would greatly detract from his performance, although he had recorded moves in one weekender some time earlier in which his result, while below par, wasn't all that awful.

Our club being a small club, rather than us demand that he produce a medical certificate, it was agreed he would lose 10 mins off the clock at the start of the game for G90 and G60 flat. Now that there are increments I would be demanding a medical certificate.

The interesting thing was we had (and in one case still have) a couple of elderly players who had arthritis and who clearly couldn't score at the same rate as others. We offered to give them 10 extra minutes on the clock at the start of the game but neither took us up on it.

A player without a medical excuse (which for a GP event should certainly be checked) cannot choose to just lose time off the clock. Under the Laws the game is lost by a player who repeatedly refuses to score, so he will get some series of warnings and/or time penalties and then be ruled to have lost the game.


In internal club events, the policy might be relaxed, but not for any ACF-rated event.

I am not aware of any policy that insists that relaxation of FIDE laws for ACF events in this sort of manner makes the events ACF-unrateable. Indeed I suspect there are many ACF-rated events in which some players still score in descriptive.


Could his opponent insist he hands in a scoresheet in algebraic to win a game?

Assuming the arbiters or organisers have not relaxed scoring rules for the event in question then the proper procedure is to complain during the game and not after it. If a player lost a game and then tried to claim that the opponent should be forced to rewrite the scoresheet I would formally invite the claimant to go cry me a river.

Thunderspirit
20-02-2010, 08:53 PM
There was/is a player Ive seen around here who refuses to score in grand prix events. He DEMANDS from the arbiter to be penalized time instead. It seems arbiters cave in to get his entry fees.

If a player can't write his/her moves then I would be happy to say that player starting with 45 +10 sec/move in a weekender. Otherwise I would refuse his entry or if it was too late, throw him out of the tournament.

Cameron, what state is this player from?

Ian CCC
21-02-2010, 01:52 PM
If a player can't write his/her moves then I would be happy to say that player starting with 45 +10 sec/move in a weekender. Otherwise I would refuse his entry or if it was too late, throw him out of the tournament.

Article 8.1 states:

If a player is unable to keep score, an assistant, who must be acceptable to the arbiter, may be provided by the player to write the moves. His clock shall be adjusted by the arbiter in an equitable way.

Ian CCC
21-02-2010, 02:04 PM
This is note making and clearly outlawed.

Actually, it is making use of notes which is clearly outlawed (Article 12.3a).

Presumably, as soon as you start writing any notes, you are then automatically making use of the notes that you are writing and you are, as a result, in contravention of this rule.

Thunderspirit
23-02-2010, 09:47 PM
Article 8.1 states:

If a player is unable to keep score, an assistant, who must be acceptable to the arbiter, may be provided by the player to write the moves. His clock shall be adjusted by the arbiter in an equitable way.

I worded my response badly.

If a player who is able to record, but wishes to be penalised instead of recording, I would throw out of an event if needs be.

A player who is not capable of recording, requires assistance. I would of course faciliate a solution.

Trent Parker
23-02-2010, 11:42 PM
The time allowance is easy! If a player refuses to write his moves down the clock should be set to 5 min as players are required to write their moves down until after this period.... and with the 10sec incriment that should be enough for the player not writing down the moves!

Kevin Bonham
23-02-2010, 11:48 PM
The time allowance is easy! If a player refuses to write his moves down the clock should be set to 5 min as players are required to write their moves down until after this period.... and with the 10sec incriment that should be enough for the player not writing down the moves!

Indeed. If the player wants to not score they can just sit there until their clock falls below 5 mins and play the whole game like that if they want to.

However when the increment is 30 seconds or more they do not have that option.

Santa
01-03-2010, 11:07 AM
He is technically violating the law. Article 8:1 (http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=124&view=article):


In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibily as possible, in the algebraic notation (See Appendix C), on the scoresheet prescribed for the competition.

In internal club events, the policy might be relaxed, but not for any ACF-rated event.

The most important points are that
1. They are playing chess
2. They are recording the moves.

Consider that such a player is likely to be fairly senior, say Santa's generation, and to have long been out of the game, and probably not very good. Playing chess is supposed to be fun, and I'd not want to place any undue impediments in the way. It's not as if, in using descriptive notation, such a player is getting an advantage over his opponent.

In club events, ACF-rated or not, I'd not worry too much about it, certainly not to the point of penalising such a player.

I would, however, (as a club official) make points in favour of learning algebraic notation.

Bob1
10-03-2010, 08:03 PM
What is the penalty for INCORRECTLY recording a move?

Santa
10-03-2010, 11:52 PM
What is the penalty for INCORRECTLY recording a move?

If you record a move incorrectly accidentally, then none. If you deliberately flout the rules (and the arbiter's directions), then I'd apply the same penalties as if the player was not recording the moves at all.

An important use of the scoresheet is to reconstruct the game's position when needed. I've been knows to confuse Bs and Ns on the scoresheet. Such errors could usually be sorted out when needed, and be no worse that the scoresheets of some leading players of their day:

these aren't the very epitome of legibility, though maybe my main problem with the first is the script used:
http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/pics/cn4551_eisenberg.jpg
Note the player made mistakes with both sides' moves.

http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Fischer_Score_Card.jpg/450px-Fischer_Score_Card.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Planilha_Eisenberg_e_Capablanca_.jpg/200px-Planilha_Eisenberg_e_Capablanca_.jpg

Sheroff
13-03-2010, 01:04 PM
At the Noosa Open (1994, from memory) I was paired against GM Ian Rogers. There was some sort of accelerated time control in which, once you got down to 5 minutes left or less on your clock, you could legally just record a tick mark on your scoresheet instead of actual moves. I'd never heard of this before and was unaware if it, and when Ian got short of time and started plonking tick marks on his scoresheet, I assumed it was okay for me to do the same! Apparently not, as I had a bit more time left on my clock (a bit over 5 minutes). Ian saw me doing this and told me I needed to record my moves. My reply was "and you don't?" I didn't understand what was going on - why I needed to record moves and he didn't - I was a bit peeved to be honest, but it was just my ignorance of the time control rules for that tourney.

As it turned out, the tournament director came over and cleared up my confusion, we played on, and I ended up forcing the GM's resignation with a nice exchange sac. So all ended well... (of course he's had his revenge on me three or four times since).

Just goes to show, make sure you know the full details of the time control (which was probably announced clearly before play, had I been paying attention.) My bad.

I rather miss the old Noosa Open. Played some fun chess there over the years, including (from the same tourney in which I stunned Rogers) the now famous queen sac game against Craven (see page 11 of Australian Chess Briliancies). Nice event, nice venue...

Cheers,
Kevin Casey

Denis_Jessop
13-03-2010, 04:39 PM
At the Noosa Open (1994, from memory) I was paired against GM Ian Rogers. There was some sort of accelerated time control in which, once you got down to 5 minutes left or less on your clock, you could legally just record a tick mark on your scoresheet instead of actual moves. I'd never heard of this before and was unaware if it, and when Ian got short of time and started plonking tick marks on his scoresheet, I assumed it was okay for me to do the same! Apparently not, as I had a bit more time left on my clock (a bit over 5 minutes). Ian saw me doing this and told me I needed to record my moves. My reply was "and you don't?" I didn't understand what was going on - why I needed to record moves and he didn't - I was a bit peeved to be honest, but it was just my ignorance of the time control rules for that tourney.

As it turned out, the tournament director came over and cleared up my confusion, we played on, and I ended up forcing the GM's resignation with a nice exchange sac. So all ended well... (of course he's had his revenge on me three or four times since).

Just goes to show, make sure you know the full details of the time control (which was probably announced clearly before play, had I been paying attention.) My bad.

I rather miss the old Noosa Open. Played some fun chess there over the years, including (from the same tourney in which I stunned Rogers) the now famous queen sac game against Craven (see page 11 of Australian Chess Briliancies). Nice event, nice venue...

Cheers,
Kevin Casey

Wasn't that just the sitution that arose under the FIDE laws that allowed a player with less than 5 minutes remaining on his clock not to record the moves? If his opponent had more than 5 minutes remaining he didn't have the same privilege. Most players not recording nevertheless ticked each move so that they would know how many had been played for time control purposes. After the time control was reached, they had to bring their score sheet up-to-date in their own time.

DJ

Sheroff
14-03-2010, 12:23 PM
Yeah, that sounds about right. I had just never encountered that situation before, in a tournament game. Live and learn...

I still don't know if the rule applies to ALL tournament time controls in which moves must be recorded, or just certain time controls.


Kevin Casey

Garvinator
14-03-2010, 02:07 PM
Yeah, that sounds about right. I had just never encountered that situation before, in a tournament game. Live and learn...

I still don't know if the rule applies to ALL tournament time controls in which moves must be recorded, or just certain time controls.When the tournament game has an increment of 30 seconds or more, each player must record each and every move from move one till the end of the game. There is no period where a player gets to stop recording.

When the increment is less than 30 seconds ie 10 seconds per move, a player may stop recording once their clock is under 5 minutes. The key word is their clock.

If your own clock is above five minutes, you must keep recording. However, if your clock has gone below five minutes and is now above five minutes, you do not have to start recording again.

pinpawn
19-04-2010, 12:10 AM
Different question.

What is considered to be correct algebraic notation? What if you're not natively English speaking and have played 30-odd years with different letters than used in Australia? Are you allowed to use your own?


Or make little drawings of kings and bishops :lol:

Garvinator
19-04-2010, 12:30 AM
What is considered to be correct algebraic notation? What if you're not natively English speaking and have played 30-odd years with different letters than used in Australia? Are you allowed to use your own?Using your native language is allowed.

ER
19-04-2010, 01:38 AM
Or make little drawings of kings and bishops :lol:

I 've seen a player in Sydney doing that. He also used to do draw pieces on the sealing envelope! (they used to seal moves for postponements those days)!
Actually they looked cool!

William AS
19-04-2010, 12:02 PM
Or make little drawings of kings and bishops :lol:

Trevor Tao used to do this [also queens, knights & rooks] and it was a very sad day when we had to tell him it was no longer allowed under the FIDE rules :( . His score-sheets were much easier to read than most of his opponents and used to brighten up the games enterers day.

Jesper Norgaard
20-04-2010, 07:18 AM
Trevor Tao used to do this [also queens, knights & rooks] and it was a very sad day when we had to tell him it was no longer allowed under the FIDE rules :( . His score-sheets were much easier to read than most of his opponents and used to brighten up the games enterers day.

In my opinion this is an over-interpretation of the rules. Rule C3 states

"For the first name of the letter of the pieces, each player is free to use the first letter of the name which is used commonly in his country. Examples F=fou (French for bishop), L=loper (Dutch for bishop). In printed periodicals, the use of figurines for the pieces is recommended."

As you say, his score-sheets were much easier to read than most of his opponents. If I understand it correctly, he could have used a "capital letter" in Chinese representing the first part of the name in Chinese for the piece, e.g. a scribble that none of the game capturers would know by heart (goes for many other languages too) and therefore the figurine would be preferable from a common sense point of view, emphasized by the recommendation to use it in periodicals.

The preface of the FIDE laws of chess is splendid in pointing out that no rule set can cover every possible situation, and that it should be possible to reach a correct decision by studying analogous situations. I think that clearly would be the case here in allowing the figurine notation. Everybody benefits, the player and arbiters and game capturers alike.

Skulte
20-04-2010, 08:26 AM
Is this a rule?

In the past I never recorded draw offers. I noticed in a recent game at the City of Sydney Champ's after I offered a draw, my opponent put an = after the move I made. (I had never seen this before - but now I do it).

At Doeberl, during all the matches I played there were a few offers from both sides, and none of my opponents noted on their scoresheet that a draw was offered.

Is this an optional thing? or is it just that many do not know the rules regarding the recording of draw offers?

Oepty
20-04-2010, 08:48 AM
It is a rule. Article 8 of the Laws of chess is about recording moves



Article 8: The recording of the moves
8.1

In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibily as possible, in the algebraic notation (See Appendix C), on the scoresheet prescribed for the competition.

It is forbidden to write the moves in advance, unless the player is claiming a draw according to Article 9.2, or 9.3 or adjourning a game according to the Guidelines of Adjourned Games point 1.a.

A player may reply to his opponent’s move before recording it, if he so wishes. He must record his previous move before making another.

Both players must record the offer of a draw on the scoresheet. (See Appendix C.13)

If a player is unable to keep score, an assistant, who must be acceptable to the arbiter, may be provided by the player to write the moves. His clock shall be adjusted by the arbiter in an equitable way.


C.13

The offer of a draw shall be marked as (=).

Essential abbreviations

0 - 0 = castling with rook h1 or rook h8 (kingside castling)

0 - 0 - 0 = castling with rook a1 or rook a8 (queenside castling)

x = captures

+ = check

++or# = checkmate

e.p. = captures ‘en passant’

It is not mandatory to record the check, the checkmate and capturing on the scoresheet.

Sample game:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. e5 Ne4 5. Qxd4 d5 6. exd6e.p. Nxd6 7. Bg5 Nc6 8. Qe3+3 Be7 9. Nbd2 0-0 10. 0-0-0 Re8 11. Kb1 (=)


Scott

Jeff Dyer
21-04-2010, 01:48 PM
On the score sheets I make for our club I place the all the information from Appendix C.13 on the back of the sheet near the bottom.

I find that this helps when explaining how to notate.

FM_Bill
01-10-2010, 12:24 PM
In the 1970s there was a popular book called 'Think like a grandmaster' by Kotov. He recommended writing a move before it was played and this became very popular in Australia.

Its a poor idea though, now is clearly illegal and probably was then too (because of people crossing out moves)