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Kevin Bonham
30-01-2010, 09:37 PM
Incredible finish from a high board in the last round of the Aus Junior U12s. To know such things are possible is one thing, but to see them happen in an actual game another.

1...Kc4 2.Ke4 Kb4 3.Kd4 Kxa4 4.Kc4 Ka3 5.Kc3 a4 6.Nf3 Ka2 7.Kc2 h4 8.Nxh4 a3 Either king move would have drawn but now, although the knight is on the other side of the board, mate is forced, and white delivers it even if he doesn't find the quickest way. 9.Nf3 Ka1 10.Nd2 Ka2 11.Ne4 Ka1 12.Nc5 Ka2 13.Nd3 Ka1 14.Nc1 and black resigned in view of 14...a2 15.Nb3# 1-0

Oepty
30-01-2010, 10:07 PM
Great finish!!! Who were the players?
Scott

CameronD
30-01-2010, 10:13 PM
Great finish!!! Who were the players?
Scott

Great!!!

So you want to humiliate a 11 year old. What a big man you are.

There kids, these type of misplayed games should not be published.

Kevin Bonham
30-01-2010, 10:29 PM
There kids, these type of misplayed games should not be published.

Actually this kind of ending could easily happen at adult club level and is highly instructive so I totally disagree with any suggestion that it shouldn't be highlighted. I'm sure a lot of club-level adults who had not seen this kind of position before would also play ..a3 and lose, and a lot of other club-level adults would have agreed a draw with white in this ending, perhaps even in a position where they had forced mate. This kind of thing enriches our understanding of chess and to say it shouldn't be published at all because it was played by "kids" and "kids" belong in fifteen feet of cotton wool is simply silly IMO.

I do prefer when posting these positions from junior tournaments onto chesschat outside the tournament thread not to name the players myself, though anyone interested can check the bulletins or PGN and see which game it was.

Oepty
30-01-2010, 10:56 PM
Great!!!

So you want to humiliate a 11 year old. What a big man you are.

There kids, these type of misplayed games should not be published.

I do not want to humiliate an eleven year old. I was interested in who won it - not who lost it. I don't think that a player making a mistake on the chess board is ever in a position to be considered humiliated. GM's have made much much worse blunders and I would be surprised if you haven't as well, I certainly have many times. You are taking things far too seriously.
Scott

Capablanca-Fan
30-01-2010, 11:26 PM
It's called Stamma's Mate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkmate#Stamma.27s_mate).

Moriarty
30-01-2010, 11:32 PM
Actually this kind of ending could easily happen at adult club level and is highly instructive so I totally disagree with any suggestion that it shouldn't be highlighted. I'm sure a lot of club-level adults who had not seen this kind of position before would also play ..a3 and lose, and a lot of other club-level adults would have agreed a draw with white in this ending, perhaps even in a position where they had forced mate.

Absolutely agree. Im club level adult and I would have probably have played 11. Nc4 without a second thought to secure the draw.

Even more than that, there are plenty of players that say the laws are unfair in awarding a win rather than a draw to K+N when K+Ps flag falls this game shows that the win does happen.

Kevin Bonham
30-01-2010, 11:41 PM
A beautiful finish featuring the same theme that I found off Jono's link. Here black is forced to give up his knight for the pawn, but to take white's final pawn with his king he has to entrap himself in the same mating net as above.

Noguieras - Gongora, Cuba 2001

1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Qxd4 Nc6 5. Qd1 g6 6. e4 Bg7
7. Bd3 Nf6 8. Nge2 Ng4 9. f3 Nge5 10. O-O Be6 11. b3 Nxd3
12. Qxd3 Qd7 13. Bb2 O-O-O 14. Qd2 f5 15. exf5 Bxf5 16. Ng3
Bd4+ 17. Kh1 Qg7 18. Rad1 Be5 19. Ba1 h5 20. Nd5 Bxa1 21. Rxa1
h4 22. Nxf5 gxf5 23. h3 Ne5 24. f4 Nc6 25. Rae1 Rde8 26. Rxe8+
Rxe8 27. Re1 Qh8 28. Qf2 Rxe1+ 29. Qxe1 a5 30. Kh2 Kb8 31. Qc3
Qd4 32. Qxd4 Nxd4 33. g4 c6 34. Ne7 Kc7 35. Ng6 b5 36. Nxh4 a4
37. Nxf5 Nxb3 38. cxb5 cxb5 39. g5 Nc5 40. g6 Ne4 41. g7 Nf6
42. Ne7 Kd7 43. Nd5 Ng8 44. f5 Ke8 45. Nc7+ Kf7 46. Nxb5 d5
47. Kg3 Kxg7 48. Kf4 Kf6 49. h4 Ne7 50. Nd4 Ng8 51. Ne2 Ne7
52. Ng3 a3 53. h5 Ng8 54. Nf1 Nh6 55. Ne3 d4 56. Nd5+ Kf7
57. Kg5 Kg7 58. f6+ Kh7 59. Kf4 Nf7 60. Ke4 Kh6 61. Kxd4 Kxh5
62. Nb6 Kg6 63. Nd7 Nh6 64. Kd5 Kf7 65. Ke5 Ng4+ 66. Kf5 Ne3+
67. Kg5 Nc4 68. Kf5 Ne3+ 69. Kf4 Nd5+ 70. Kg5 Ke6 71. Nc5+ Kf7
72. Ne4 Ke6 73. Kg6 Nf4+ 74. Kh6 Nd5 75. Kg5 Nxf6 76. Nxf6 Ke5
77. Nd7+ Kd4 78. Kf4 Kc3 79. Ke3 Kb2 80. Kd2 Kxa2 81. Kc2 Ka1
82. Nc5 Ka2 83. Nd3 Ka1 84. Nc1 1-0

Kevin Bonham
30-01-2010, 11:45 PM
Even more than that, there are plenty of players that say the laws are unfair in awarding a win rather than a draw to K+N when K+Ps flag falls this game shows that the win does happen.

Yes, and this is why I was already aware of the position (it's one of those obscure things arbiters need to know!), though I have never before seen a case with the knight on the opposite side of the board (the knight has to be very quick to get back before black can self-stalemate!)

This sort of thing is only possible with a rook pawn; with any other pawn the win on flagfall for KN depends on the possibility of underpromotion followed by helpmate.

Igor_Goldenberg
01-02-2010, 08:51 AM
Incredible finish from a high board in the last round of the Aus Junior U12s. To know such things are possible is one thing, but to see them happen in an actual game another.

1...Kc4 2.Ke4 Kb4 3.Kd4 Kxa4 4.Kc4 Ka3 5.Kc3 a4 6.Nf3 Ka2 7.Kc2 h4 8.Nxh4 a3 Either king move would have drawn but now, although the knight is on the other side of the board, mate is forced, and white delivers it even if he doesn't find the quickest way. 9.Nf3 Ka1 10.Nd2 Ka2 11.Ne4 Ka1 12.Nc5 Ka2 13.Nd3 Ka1 14.Nc1 and black resigned in view of 14...a2 15.Nb3# 1-0
7...Ka3, 7...a3 and 8...Ka3 do not lose, only two consecutive errors on move 7 and 8. Kudos to the white player for finding the checkmate.

Kevin Bonham
01-02-2010, 11:52 AM
7...Ka3, 7...a3 and 8...Ka3 do not lose, only two consecutive errors on move 7 and 8.

Indeed. The mate only works because black can be forced to play ...a2 by lack of any other moves, and if the h-pawn is still on the board then there is no way for white to force ...a2.

Jesper Norgaard
24-06-2013, 10:26 PM
In the 2013 June issue of "An Arbiter's notebook" Geurt Gijssen asks:

"By the way, I am quite curious whether Oleg Pervakov can find such an ending (even accepting dual solutions) with a forced win with a lone knight. It must be a forced win in more than one move."

I am surprised that Geurt has not seen the above examples of forcing the smothered mate against a king trapped behind his own rook-pawn. Checking Australian Junior Chess is apparently very beneficial for many things. I would not have known the following little miniature which is only possible because of stupid rules and a creative Australian Junior player:
1.e3 f5 2.Bb5 d5(+) 3.Qh5+ checkmate!

Of course this is only possible because the rules only requires the last move to be legal (the checkmating move), but not the immediately previous move by the opponent, here 2...d5(+) which is illegal.

Igor_Goldenberg
28-06-2013, 04:08 PM
Don't want to be nit picking, but does the definition of legal move include the clause that it has to lead to a legal position?

Kevin Bonham
28-06-2013, 04:22 PM
Don't want to be nit picking, but does the definition of legal move include the clause that it has to lead to a legal position?

No. There is no concept "legal position" in the Laws. For instance, suppose it is your move and your opponent's king is in check from two pieces. You can place the king in check with a third piece, thus creating a position that couldn't have happened with any series of legal moves (an "illegal position") and your move is still legal.

Jesper Norgaard
29-06-2013, 08:28 PM
No. There is no concept "legal position" in the Laws. For instance, suppose it is your move and your opponent's king is in check from two pieces. You can place the king in check with a third piece, thus creating a position that couldn't have happened with any series of legal moves (an "illegal position") and your move is still legal.
Especially in Blitz every new move made condones the illegality of previous moves. In normal and Rapid games, illegal moves have to be corrected, if possible.

However, stalemate and checkmate ends the game on the spot (unless it is Blitz and Geurt Gijssen is the arbiter), provided that the last move leading to the position is legal. My opinion is that to actually end a game on the spot, it should be a requirement for both stalemate and checkmate that both the last and the next-last move (in other words the last move from each player) must be legal. I don't think it is an unbearable hardship on arbiters, and it would avoid that 1.e3 f5 2.Bb5 d5(+) 3.Qh5+ is actually checkmate according to the laws of chess, even in normal games with adequate supervision, if the arbiter did not see the illegal move 2...d5(+) in time.

The problem is that Geurt Gijssen wanted all moves in the game to be legal for the checkmate to stand, and that was too much for the consensus of arbiters, especially it would be impossible to handle in Blitz.

Kevin Bonham
16-01-2014, 12:49 AM
Just looking up this thread I thought it was worth noting that while I did not name the players at the time, the winner of this ending is an IM now - Ari Dale.