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Alexrules01
08-01-2010, 11:40 PM
Alexrules01 (1773) - Orang Utan20 (1648)
Rated game, 25m + 0s Main Playing Hall, 08.01.2010

1.d4 e6 2.c4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 c6 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 Nbd7 7.Rc1 h6 8.Bh4 0-0 9.Bd3 Re8 10.0-0 Qc7 11.Re1 dxc4 12.Bxc4 b5 13.Bd3 Bb7 14.Nxb5 Qb6 15.Nc3 Rab8 16.Qc2 c5 17.Na4 Qc6 18.Nxc5 Nxc5 19.dxc5 Nd7 20.Bxe7 Rxe7 21.Bf1 Rc8 22.b4 Nb6 23.b5 Qc7 24.c6 Ba8 25.a4 Nd5 26.Qc5 a6 27.e4 Nb6 28.Ra1 Ree8 29.Red1 axb5 30.axb5 Red8 31.Ne5 Rxd1 32.Rxd1 f6 33.Nd7 Na4 34.Qe7 e5 35.Nxf6+ gxf6 36.Rd7 Qxd7 37.cxd7 Rf8 38.Qxf8+ Orang Utan20 gibt auf (Lag: Av=0.74s, max=2.2s) 1-0

Just played this game on the internet, and wanted to get some opinions.
It never happened in the game, but On move 17. Na4, if Black was to move the Queen to another square (Say Qa5) should White worry about the potential exchange on f3? I think Blacks Light squared Bishop is strong and believe Black should keep it on, but wanted to get other opinions. :)

Kevin Bonham
08-01-2010, 11:59 PM
I think Blacks Light squared Bishop is strong and believe Black should keep it on, but wanted to get other opinions. :)

At a very quick look I agree with this. If I was white I would not be overly worried about Bxf3, firstly because I would be glad to see the back of it and secondly because it opens the g-file onto black's kingside and I may be able to attack by playing Kh1 and Rg1. The pawn on f3 also has some defensive values (it stops Ng4 for example).

Also, given that white is a pawn up and about to go two, if black wants to swap off pieces that's black's problem.

Spiny Norman
09-01-2010, 06:54 AM
I think I agree with Kevin. A half-open file is a major asset if it is pointing at the enemy king.

The other thing I noticed was your earlier move Qc2 ... rather than defending the b2-pawn this way, I probably would have played b3 ... as I believe the queen belongs in front of the white-squared bishop and not behind it ... so if I had time, I would have played a sequence like b2, Bb1, Qd3 to set up the usual Queen's Gambit mating threats against the black king and forced him to further weaken that kingside pawn structure with g6.

All of that of course is subject to any particular queenside tactical threats that Black might be making, so it might take more than 3 moves to organise.

Desmond
09-01-2010, 08:00 AM
In general terms yes ...Bxf3 can be a good idea, especially when coupled with ...cxd4 and isolating the d-pawns. pawns on d4-f3-f2-h2 is not particularly nice. Black has potential to wreck havoc with knights, ...Nf6-d5-f4 for example. Another thing to watch out for is Black can sometimes create a barrage with Qa8 & Bb7 which can be annoying.

But in this position I don't think it's too dangerous.

Alexrules01
09-01-2010, 09:59 AM
Thanks guys! I come accross those types of positions at times and wander if its really a weakness or an assest. I guess it all depends about the rest of the board!

And Snail King, the b3-Bb1-Qd3 idea seems good aswell. I never actually thought of that in the game :P

Tony Dowden
14-01-2010, 10:21 PM
I agree with all the comments from the others :)

You are winning pawns here so your main priority is to keep things simple and swap as many pieces as you can. Doubled f-pawns are a small price to pay to remove a potentially dangerous bishop. The g-file might be useful but here the action is mainly on the Q-side where you are winning enemy pawns, then aggressively advancing your own pawns - nicely played in the actual game continuation, by the way :cool:

Note also that although double pawns are a 'static' disadvantage, they are only a problem if your opponent can exploit the weakened squares. (In this case he has almost no chance). This is why even very strong players sometimes don't worry about having doubled pawns - it all depends on the position.

Interpolating 16.Bg3 before 17.b3 was another idea too.

Alexrules01
15-01-2010, 12:37 AM
nicely played in the actual game continuation, by the way :cool: [/QUOUTE]

Why thank you :P

[QUOTE=Tony Dowden] This is why even very strong players sometimes don't worry about having doubled pawns - it all depends on the position.

That's true. I don't mind playing with doubled pawns on the Q-side (unless i've castled there) because they open files. I should probably think that way if my Kings behind the pawns aswell. But you hit the nail on the head, all depends on the position :)

michael.mcguirk
15-01-2010, 04:29 AM
Just to add on what Tony said, the doubled pawns are definately not a weakness on their own, but the issue I'd more be worried about (although not applicable here) is the posibility of allowing counter-play on the kingside, where you want your play to be on the queenside, purely because you have the pawn advantage, spacial control, and generally best chances...

Had your play been on the kingside though, no qualms at all about the doubled pawns. It's just that issue of counterplay. Though truthfully, in this position, there's actually no worry of that.

It's just another thing you should be assessing when worrying about it.

Alexrules01
15-01-2010, 10:35 AM
Just to add on what Tony said, the doubled pawns are definately not a weakness on their own, but the issue I'd more be worried about (although not applicable here) is the posibility of allowing counter-play on the kingside, where you want your play to be on the queenside, purely because you have the pawn advantage, spacial control, and generally best chances...

Had your play been on the kingside though, no qualms at all about the doubled pawns. It's just that issue of counterplay. Though truthfully, in this position, there's actually no worry of that.

It's just another thing you should be assessing when worrying about it.

Thats true. Not having the doubled pawns on the Kingside made a counter-attack more difficult, if he had one.

And also great job in the Major Michael! You had some very tough games!

Tony Dowden
16-01-2010, 12:27 PM
:hmm: Just thinking about this a little more and reading recent posts.

In the game in question, Alexrules01- Orang Utan20, the possibility of doubled pawns was not an issue but it is important to understand that doubled pwans are a static disadvantage which can only disappear completely if the pawns are undoubled or one is captured.

In my earlier post I said that doubled pawns are only a disadvantage if the weaknesses they create (often one or more squares will be weakened) can be exploited. But I should have also said that they are a disadvantage if you want your pawns on that wing to be mobile. In another words, doubled pawns lose their flexibility. See Zhao-Wohl from Rd 7 in the recent Aussie Champs for a good example where Black's doubled f-pawns were a problem www.australianchesschampionship.com (Go to 'games')