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Capablanca-Fan
05-11-2009, 12:09 PM
Our political masters like Chairman KRudd and Commissar Obamov don't want to remember. And the lefty politicians who award the Nobel Peace Prize refused to honour Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, President Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul II for their role in ending the Cold War without firing a shot.

Here is Thatcher's eulogy at Reagan's funeral that reminded the world of his vital role in standing up to Communist leaders until they capitulated, and fell like dominoes:


“As prime minister, I worked closely with Ronald Reagan for eight of the most important years of all our lives. We talked regularly both before and after his presidency. And I have had time and cause to reflect on what made him a great president. Ronald Reagan knew his own mind. He had firm principles — and, I believe, right ones. He expounded them clearly, he acted upon them decisively.

“When the world threw problems at the White House, he was not baffled, or disorientated, or overwhelmed. He knew almost instinctively what to do. When his aides were preparing option papers for his decision, they were able to cut out entire rafts of proposals that they knew ‘the Old Man’ would never wear. When his allies came under Soviet or domestic pressure, they could look confidently to Washington for firm leadership. And when his enemies tested American resolve, they soon discovered that his resolve was firm and unyielding.

“So the President resisted Soviet expansion and pressed down on Soviet weakness at every point until the day came when communism began to collapse beneath the combined weight of these pressures and its own failures. And when a man of goodwill did emerge from the ruins, President Reagan stepped forward to shake his hand and to offer sincere cooperation.”

antichrist
05-11-2009, 05:51 PM
I reakon after Grand Inquisitors Bill and KB leave their mod duties here it will feel like the Berlin Wall coming down for our more adventuresome posters. Certain *** will be able to be whispered again with no mikes under the tables or phones tapped.

Ian Murray
08-11-2009, 09:52 AM
Before the Wall came down thousands of refugees crossed over. I can't recall whether or not West Germany had an Atlantic Solution to detain those illegal immigrants.

Capablanca-Fan
08-11-2009, 01:43 PM
Before the Wall came down thousands of refugees crossed over. I can't recall whether or not West Germany had an Atlantic Solution to detain those illegal immigrants.
More likely, they were welcomed as fellow countryman in a country artificially divided by outsiders.

I'm old enough to remember the obscene moral equivalence between the two sides of the iron curtain spouted by much of the media and in my highschool social studies textbooks. But they could never explain why the refugee traffic was overwhelmingly towards the West, or why the Commies needed to stop people leaving.

Capablanca-Fan
18-11-2009, 05:35 PM
A Minority View: Excused Horrors (http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2009/11/18/a_minority_view_excused_horrors)
by Walter E. Williams
18 Nov 2009

...

Alan Kors, University of Pennsylvania history professor, gave the evening's keynote address. What he revealed about the dereliction and character weakness of academics, intellectuals, media elites and politicians is by no means complimentary, but worse than that, dangerous. Professor Kors said that over the years, he has frequently asked students how many deaths were caused by Joseph Stalin and Mao Tsetung and their successors. Routinely, they gave numbers in the thousands. Kors says that's equivalent to saying the Nazis are responsible for the deaths of just a few hundred Jews. But here's the record: Nazis were responsible for the deaths of 20 million of their own people and those in nations they conquered. Between 1917 and 1983, Stalin and his successors murdered, or were otherwise responsible for the deaths of, 62 million of their own people. Between 1949 and 1987, Mao Tsetung and his successors were responsible for the deaths of 76 million Chinese.

Professor Kors asks why are the horrors of Nazism so well known and widely condemned, but not those of socialism and communism? For decades after World War II, people have hunted down and sought punishment for Nazi murderers. How much hunting down and seeking punishment for Stalinist and Maoist murderers? In Europe, especially Germany, hoisting the swastika-emblazoned Nazi flag is a crime. It's acceptable to hoist and march under a flag emblazoned with the former USSR's hammer and sickle. Even in the U.S., it's acceptable to praise mass murderers, as Anita Dunn, President Obama's communications director, did in a commencement address for St. Andrews Episcopal High School at Washington National Cathedral where she said Mao Tsetung was one of her heroes. Whether it's the academic community, the media elite or politicians, there is a great tolerance for the ideas of socialism -- a system that has caused more deaths and human misery than all other systems combined.

Academics, media elites and leftist politicians [and liberal churchians -- Jono] both in the U.S. and Europe protested the actions and military buildup of President Ronald Reagan and Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher that led to the fall of the Berlin Wall and ultimately the breakup of the Soviet Union. Recall the leftist hissy fit when Ronald Reagan called the Soviet Union the evil empire and predicted that communism would wind up on the trash heap of history.

...

Goughfather
18-11-2009, 07:24 PM
For decades after World War II, people have hunted down and sought punishment for Nazi murderers. How much hunting down and seeking punishment for Stalinist and Maoist murderers?

Well, I'm sure that you wouldn't agree with this sentiment. Isn't murder by the State meant to be a contradiction in terms?

Ian Murray
18-11-2009, 07:59 PM
Time, the great healer?

Kids think Hitler was a ‘football coach’ (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2716633/Kids-think-Adolf-Hitler-was-a-German-football-coach-shock-survey-reveals.html)
The Sun (UK)
18.11.09


ONE in 20 British schoolkids thinks war-mongering dictator Adolf Hitler was a German football coach, a shock survey has revealed.

The same number thought the Holocaust was a celebration at the end of the war.

One in six youngsters believed the notorious Auschwitz concentration camp was a theme park - and one in 12 thought the Blitz was a European clean-up operation following World War II...

Anniversary of fall of Berlin Wall creates longing (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,26321177-954,00.html)
Charles Miranda
Courier-Mail
8.11.09

...But there is another side to this story – for while many Germans will mark the collapse of the wall and with it the oppressive socialism, many more will recall a time when living under centralised power meant social security, safety, and predictability to their lives.

The economic crisis in Europe has left many Germans yearning for the past, and that strangely includes a communist-style government that indirectly created a time of respect for personal property, of friendships and an attitude to make do with what you had without divisive materialism.

...To some it's called "Ostalgie", nostalgia for the former communist state. Despite the award-winning German film The Lives of Others detailing life under the Stasi, and a rash of documentaries in the lead-up to the anniversary, a recent survey found 41 per cent of today's East Germans believe the communist state was not unjust....

Capablanca-Fan
19-11-2009, 06:17 PM
Well, I'm sure that you wouldn't agree with this sentiment. Isn't murder by the State meant to be a contradiction in terms?
But indeed the Nazis were not guilty of crimes against their own laws. Hence the Nuremberg trials were military tribunals that appealed to "higher laws" and found them guilty of "crimes against humanity". This makes a mockery of Obamov wanting to try the 11-9 terrorists as criminals in ordinary courts rather than as the war criminals they are.

How about sticking to the topic, which is how Communist murderers escaped justice, and how it's permissible to admire them whereas expressed admiration for Hitler is a career-killer (except in many Muslim countries).

Ian Murray
19-11-2009, 09:50 PM
This makes a mockery of Obamov wanting to try the 11-9 terrorists as criminals in ordinary courts rather than as the war criminals they are.
For crimes during which war?

Garvinator
20-11-2009, 02:49 AM
But indeed the Nazis were not guilty of crimes against their own laws. Hence the Nuremberg trials were military tribunals that appealed to "higher laws" and found them guilty of "crimes against humanity". This makes a mockery of Obamov wanting to try the 11-9 terrorists as criminals in ordinary courts rather than as the war criminals they are.
I can understand why the US does not want to have war criminal trials. If they were to gone down that path, then it brings in all the rights and conventions of the Geneva conventions, which was part of the original debate about Prisoners of War vs Illegal enemy combatants which occurred after the US went into Afghanistan.

Igor_Goldenberg
20-11-2009, 08:41 AM
But indeed the Nazis were not guilty of crimes against their own laws. Hence the Nuremberg trials were military tribunals that appealed to "higher laws" and found them guilty of "crimes against humanity".
The Nazis were convicted mostly for crimes against other countries, not crimes against Germans.

How about sticking to the topic, which is how Communist murderers escaped justice, and how it's permissible to admire them whereas expressed admiration for Hitler is a career-killer (except in many Muslim countries).
They escaped justice mostly because they did not lose war and their crimes were against their own citizens. Going out more or less peacefully helped as well (Ceauşescu counter-example springs to mind).
Lefties also hate Hitler and Nazism because it almost exposed socialism for what it is - a brutal system of suppression of liberties. That's why they fought hard to pretend Nazies are not socialist (and, regrettably, succeeded).



This makes a mockery of Obamov wanting to try the 11-9 terrorists as criminals in ordinary courts rather than as the war criminals they are.
Well, it's a topic for a different discussion, probably in a different thread. I, personally, commend the decision to try them in the court.

Ian Murray
20-11-2009, 09:30 AM
Well, it's a topic for a different discussion, probably in a different thread. I, personally, commend the decision to try them in the court.
I'd like to pursue it also, but it's off-topic here

antichrist
20-11-2009, 08:40 PM
More likely, they were welcomed as fellow countryman in a country artificially divided by outsiders.

I'm old enough to remember the obscene moral equivalence between the two sides of the iron curtain spouted by much of the media and in my highschool social studies textbooks. But they could never explain why the refugee traffic was overwhelmingly towards the West, or why the Commies needed to stop people leaving.


The commies wanted to stop them leaving coz they reakoned that the State clothe, fed and educated them and so the individual had a committment to the state. Many could leave after paying their dues to the state. Now 3rd world,free, capitalist countries suffer enormous brain drains that is quite detrimental.

Some people would say "Fair enough" re above.

Summing up, of course people gravitate towards the richer counties.

Capitalism does exploit poorer countries so they can be richer and more attractive.

The Berlin wall was not the initial collapse - as we Hungarian brother-in-law likes to point out the first was actually in Hungary.

I seen a program the other day that attributed the collapse of the communist state virtually attributed to Gorbarchev(?) and others' desire for liberties. The leaders eventually seen that people's freedom is a natural right and so gave way. Had virtually nothing to do with the West.

Igor_Goldenberg
20-11-2009, 10:09 PM
I'm old enough to remember the obscene moral equivalence between the two sides of the iron curtain spouted by much of the media and in my highschool social studies textbooks. But they could never explain why the refugee traffic was overwhelmingly towards the West, or why the Commies needed to stop people leaving.
Excellent point. People vote with their feet, and migration streams (and projection on what they could become if not constrained) are the best indicator of comparative quality between different countries/systems.

Capablanca-Fan
21-11-2009, 01:44 PM
The Nazis were convicted mostly for crimes against other countries, not crimes against Germans.
Apart from German Jews. One hypocritical indictment of the Nazis at Nuremberg was "Conspiracy to wage aggressive war", because 2 of the 8 judges were part of the co-conspirators of the war against Poland, the Soviet Union.


They escaped justice mostly because they did not lose war and their crimes were against their own citizens. Going out more or less peacefully helped as well (Ceauşescu counter-example springs to mind).
True.


Lefties also hate Hitler and Nazism because it almost exposed socialism for what it is - a brutal system of suppression of liberties. That's why they fought hard to pretend Nazies are not socialist (and, regrettably, succeeded).
Yes, Nazis are usually regarded now as "right-wing", when they were national socialists. And why admiring Nazis is a no-no, but admiring the Soviet mass murderers is OK.

Goughfather
21-11-2009, 02:18 PM
Yes, Nazis are usually regarded now as "right-wing", when they were national socialists. And why admiring Nazis is a no-no, but admiring the Soviet mass murderers is OK.

Seems like a fairly perverse talking point to me. There seems to be the common misapprehension that the political spectum is a two-dimensional continuum where the ends proceed ever further away from one another, when in reality it is more like a circle. As the extremes of facism and totalitarianism continue on, they become more and more indistinguishable from one another.

Any criticism of leftist theory based upon an analysis of totalitarianism and rightist theory based upon an analysis of fascism seems to be ill-conceived to me, given that the vast majority of leftists are closer to the centre-right than to totalitarianism and the vast majority of rightists are closer to the centre-left than fascism. Proceeding on such a basis can only result in the most egregious of strawperson representations.

Igor_Goldenberg
21-11-2009, 04:16 PM
Seems like a fairly perverse talking point to me. There seems to be the common misapprehension that the political spectum is a two-dimensional continuum where the ends proceed ever further away from one another,

Strictly speaking, that would be one-dimensional.
For two-dimensional spectrum look here (http://www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html)


As the extremes of facism and totalitarianism continue on, they become more and more indistinguishable from one another.

Actually they both sit in statist corner of the two-dimensional spectrum (http://www.theadvocates.org/quizp/quiz.php)



Any criticism of leftist theory based upon an analysis of totalitarianism and rightist theory based upon an analysis of fascism seems to be ill-conceived to me, given that the vast majority of leftists are closer to the centre-right than to totalitarianism and the vast majority of rightists are closer to the centre-left than fascism. Proceeding on such a basis can only result in the most egregious of strawperson representations.
Leftist's idea that collective must play a decisive role in individual life is a corner-stone of communism and fascism, they both originated from the same social-democratic movement. Hence they should be viewed as different variation of the same ideology, rather them opposing ideologies.

Kevin Bonham
21-11-2009, 09:42 PM
The above territory is also covered on the political compasses (http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=3166) thread.