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View Full Version : Euro Court Bans Crucifix in Italian Schools



arosar
04-11-2009, 08:54 PM
Get a load of this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/03/italy-classroom-crucifixes-human-rights)youse blokes. The European Court of Human Rights has banned the crucifix from Italian schools! The religious symbol apparently considered "a violation of religious and educational freedoms."

I'm all in favour of secularist approaches, but this seems a bit too far!

AR

Capablanca-Fan
04-11-2009, 09:10 PM
Get a load of this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/03/italy-classroom-crucifixes-human-rights)youse blokes. The European Court of Human Rights has banned the crucifix from Italian schools! The religious symbol apparently considered "a violation of religious and educational freedoms."

I'm all in favour of secularist approaches, but this seems a bit too far!
This is another argument against abandoning national sovereignty in favour of a Euro or World body that is unaccountable to voters. I hope the Italians tell the Court where to jump.

Kevin Bonham
04-11-2009, 09:29 PM
When I read the title and first post I thought they had banned wearing of crucifixes and was going to say that that was stupid and illiberal.

What they have actually done is banned the display of crucifixes on the walls of state school classrooms. Excellent decision. I totally agree. Shame it had to be decided by the European Court though, instead of being resolved correctly in the same way at national level.

Rincewind
04-11-2009, 10:10 PM
What they have actually done is banned the display of crucifixes on the walls of state school classrooms. Excellent decision. I totally agree. Shame it had to be decided by the European Court though, instead of being resolved correctly in the same way at national level.

I agree with the decision although (unfortunately) the main effect is it will probably end up popularising the loony right in Italy.

arosar
04-11-2009, 10:21 PM
Well if you're gonna fkn support that decision, then you might as well demand that the Aussie Parliament stop saying the bloody Our Father before every sitting.

Why do they say such a Christian prayer when they are supposed to represent the Mohammedans, the Buddhists, them jews, Zoroastrologists (or whateverthef**k they're called), those people from Jamaica with the funny hairdo, etc, etc?

AR

Kevin Bonham
04-11-2009, 10:23 PM
Well if you're gonna fkn support that decision, then you might as well demand that the Aussie Parliament stop saying the bloody Our Father before every sitting.

Yep, I'd be up for stopping that too.

ER
05-11-2009, 02:27 AM
This is another argument against abandoning national sovereignty in favour of a Euro or World body that is unaccountable to voters. I hope the Italians tell the Court where to jump.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Short and to the point! Once again thanks Jono!

Rincewind
05-11-2009, 07:32 AM
Well if you're gonna fkn support that decision, then you might as well demand that the Aussie Parliament stop saying the bloody Our Father before every sitting.

I do support the removal of the parliamentary prayer and also the removal of prayers from state schools. (I've nothing against elective scripture at state schools provided they must be opted into).

For more information on school prayers in NSW state schools see...

http://www.curriculumsupport.education.nsw.gov.au/policies/religion/implement/prayers/index.htm

Garrett
05-11-2009, 07:47 AM
I loved this line from the article



The presence of the crucifix could easily be interpreted by pupils of all ages as a religious sign

Miranda
05-11-2009, 07:54 AM
I think it's a perfectly reasonable move - why have religious symbols on the walls of a school where parents may have chosen to send their children because they don't want religious beliefs forced upon them?

Also, I think saying Our Father before every parlimentary sitting should be stopped to. Or don't we trust the politicians to make the right choices unless they've got god's help?

Capablanca-Fan
05-11-2009, 09:20 AM
I think it's a perfectly reasonable move why have religious symbols on the walls of a school where parents may have chosen to send their children because they don't want religious beliefs forced upon them?
Why not give parents the choice of where they send their kids, instead of forcing all taxpayers to fund a one size fits all state system? And it's not a reasonable move; leave it up to Italians to decide, not some faceless Eurojudges.


Also, I think saying Our Father before every parlimentary sitting should be stopped to. Or don't we trust the politicians to make the right choices unless they've got god's help?
You really want an answer to that? Not that reciting the words of this prayer seems to help anyway.

Kevin Bonham
05-11-2009, 01:25 PM
Why not give parents the choice of where they send their kids, instead of forcing all taxpayers to fund a one size fits all state system?

This, as literally written, is a false dichotomy. Taxpayers are indeed forced to fund the state system but that does not mean all parents have to send their children to that system. Italy has private schools too.


And it's not a reasonable move; leave it up to Italians to decide, not some faceless Eurojudges.

If Italy was that concerned about "faceless Eurojudges" fixing up its inability to properly separate church and state then it had the option of not joining the EU in the first place, or bargaining for different conditions.

Capablanca-Fan
05-11-2009, 01:29 PM
This, as literally written, is a false dichotomy. Taxpayers are indeed forced to fund the state system but that does not mean all parents have to send their children to that system. Italy has private schools too.
This is as fair as taxpayers being forced to fund one car company, as long as they can buy other cars.


If Italy was that concerned about "faceless Eurojudges" fixing up its inability to properly separate church and state then it had the option of not joining the EU in the first place, or bargaining for different conditions.
Most likely, didn't realize what they were signing up to. But Belgium is such a pathetically weak country that Germans twice brushed over it without breaking a sweat (they win only in the Congo), so Brussels Bureaucrats have no enforcement powers beyond what the Italian government begins with.

Kevin Bonham
05-11-2009, 02:48 PM
This is as fair as taxpayers being forced to fund one car company, as long as they can buy other cars.

Ah, but the production of those other cars is heavily subsidised by the taxpayer in turn meaning that those who buy them are getting them much cheaper than they would on the free market. The Italian constitution is supposed to stop the funding of religious private schools but the usual rorts have been found around this including tax breaks, financial bonuses to students attending religious schools, and direct state funding of optional-in-name-only religious (read Catholic) education classes.


Most likely, didn't realize what they were signing up to.

A nation would join the EU without reading the fine print? I doubt it, but if it is true then it gets what it deserves.

Spiny Norman
05-11-2009, 05:12 PM
I think it's a perfectly reasonable move - why have religious symbols on the walls of a school where parents may have chosen to send their children because they don't want religious beliefs forced upon them?
One alternative would be for these parents to choose to send their children elsewhere, where there aren't crucifixes on the wall. But if all the schools have them, they're in a bit of a bind I suppose. Wondering what it is that they are afraid of, really? Do they truly think that the sight of a crucifix (repetitively) is going to turn their little darlings into Christians? Doubt it. Sounds like paranoia to me.


Also, I think saying Our Father before every parlimentary sitting should be stopped to.
I would agree with that. I would rather that nothing were said, rather than meaningless words uttered by most of those politicians present. Those that are Christians can pray privately for guidance and blessing.


Or don't we trust the politicians to make the right choices unless they've got god's help?
Well I don't trust them; with or without God's help they're likely to comprehensively stuff things up.

antichrist
05-11-2009, 05:19 PM
This is another argument against abandoning national sovereignty in favour of a Euro or World body that is unaccountable to voters. I hope the Italians tell the Court where to jump.

But aren't you in favour of a world government by God - after the Rapture whenever whatever?

We will have bloody cruficixes everywhere then - then even AR will be against them.

Capablanca-Fan
05-11-2009, 06:15 PM
But aren't you in favour of a world government by God - after the Rapture whenever whatever?
Only God is capable of that; fallen humans are not. I don't trust anyone to have unaccountable power, be they politicians or judges or even a raw majority of the population, hence my support for checks and balances.

antichrist
05-11-2009, 06:17 PM
Only God is capable of that; fallen humans are not. I don't trust anyone to have unaccountable power, be they politicians or judges or even a raw majority of the population, hence my support for checks and balances.

But imagine how it will be for the Hindus, Jehovah Witnesses. and voodooers

arosar
05-11-2009, 09:13 PM
Germane to this discussion is the rumoured speech (http://seantheblogonaut.com/2009/10/joe-hockey-mp-leaping-to-gods-defence/) to be given by Joe Hockey this coming weekend. His first topic will be "In Defence of God" in which he'll apparently talk about atheism, secularism, government, etc.

AR

Igor_Goldenberg
06-11-2009, 09:28 AM
Wondering what it is that they are afraid of, really? Do they truly think that the sight of a crucifix (repetitively) is going to turn their little darlings into Christians? Doubt it. Sounds like paranoia to me.

Paranoia indeed.
I see crucifixes in many places, but it neither bothered me nor made a Christian.

Rincewind
06-11-2009, 09:40 AM
Paranoia indeed.
I see crucifixes in many places, but it neither bothered me nor made a Christian.

I don't think there is any danger of conversion. However just because there is no danger it does not mean it is appropriate.

arosar
06-11-2009, 01:26 PM
I am committed to secularism myself, but in the context of Italy, it struck me as a step too far. Italy for God's sake - a Catholic country. If they did this same thing in RP, I'd be just as pissed off.

Sames goes in Turkey. Over there, they ban veils in the public sector (don't know if that law has since been removed). This is a predominantly Muslim country, for cryin' out loud. Let them show their religiosity! What's the problem?

AR

Rincewind
06-11-2009, 03:03 PM
What's the problem?

If you take for granted that people have a right to exercise a religion of their choice and not have it prescribed by the state then as far as practical the state should provide services such as education, health care, law enforcement in a secular way.

If you are saying that the Italian government is "catholic" then sure, let them offer catholic schools, catholic hospitals, etc.

antichrist
06-11-2009, 03:20 PM
I am committed to secularism myself, but in the context of Italy, it struck me as a step too far. Italy for God's sake - a Catholic country. If they did this same thing in RP, I'd be just as pissed off.

....................
AR

In my ancestorial village the church is larger that the whole village, they are true believers but in your homeland they still have pagan witchdoctors etc etc - and good on them as well, at least they don't ask for money.

arosar
11-11-2009, 08:31 AM
QLD school told not to teach creationism (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/11/2739157.htm).

AR

Basil
11-11-2009, 08:38 AM
QLD school told not to teach creationism...
... in the science room.

Rincewind
11-11-2009, 08:41 AM
... in the science room.

And rightly so.

antichrist
11-11-2009, 03:49 PM
... in the science room.

let them teach Creationism in the classroom and make total idiots out of them, a laughing stock of the nation

Kevin Bonham
11-11-2009, 04:22 PM
From the article:


Bowen State High School invited a Seventh Day Adventist church pastor and creationist to address a Year 11 biology class about the religious-based theory of "intelligent design".

An official school newsletter said it was part of the study of the origins of life.

Not even a private school but a state one. Very odd.

I could not find any further information about this incident online but I found plenty about the school. Doesn't look like we are dealing with a place with very high standards here - only 6.3% of grads go to uni the next year and one in four students is suspended at some stage in the average year. So my suspicion is that teacher cluelessness is the issue here rather than any concerted political push.

arosar
13-11-2009, 02:02 PM
And now the Greek Orthodox Church tries to hit back (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8358027.stm)!

AR

antichrist
29-11-2009, 03:06 PM
My Greek service station owner reakons that the churches puts blinkfolds over the people's eyes - not bad for a tradie

Capablanca-Fan
18-12-2009, 03:54 PM
Italian Supreme Court Decision Signals Sovereign Resistance to European Overreach (http://www.c-fam.org/publications/id.1537/pub_detail.asp)
By Piero A. Tozzi, J.D.
17 December 2009
(NEW YORK — C-FAM) A little-publicized decision by Italy's Constitutional Court last month may have significant implications concerning the direction of Europe, strengthening national sovereignty as a bulwark against transnational overreach by European institutions. It also signals the continued importance of national constitutions, despite the entry into force of the Lisbon Treaty earlier this month.

In Sentenza N. 311, the Italian Constitutional Court stated that where rulings by the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) conflict with provisions of the Italian Constitution, such rulings "lack legitimacy." Sources close to the Italian judiciary told the Friday Fax that the decision was intended as a warning that activist rulings by the Strasbourg-based ECHR overstepping jurisdictional boundaries will not be given deference.

Sources point to the timing of the decision, which followed an early November ECHR ruling, Lautsi v. Italy, directing that crucifixes be removed from the Italian classroom. The Italian government is appealing that decision to the full Grand Chamber.

According to Roger Kiska, European legal counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund, Lautsi is flawed on a number of grounds, including overreach — the ECHR is not a constitutional court — and its disregard for "the cultural sovereignty of each Member State." The Constitutional Court decision — which deals with civil service matters entirely unrelated to the crucifix case — signals that Italy may be prepared to break with the ECHR if it were to lose its appeal.

Kiska also notes that the ECHR recently heard arguments in the case A, B, & C v. Ireland, which involves a direct challenge to Ireland's constitutional protection of unborn life. The Italian court decision could embolden Ireland's Supreme Court in the event of an adverse decision.

...

Observers note that the foundational documents of a united Europe — the 1957 Treaties of Rome establishing the European Economic Community — enshrine the concept of subsidiarity, and a protocol to the Lisbon Treaty states that European institutions shall "ensure constant respect for the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality."

By asserting that Italy's Constitution is the final word when confronted with decisions by transnationalist bodies, the Constitutional Court is drawing a line in the sand similar to that drawn by the United States (US) Supreme Court in 2008, when it rejected a directive from the World Court in The Hague as incompatible with the US Constitution.

...