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View Full Version : Atheists Vs Christians Tourney



antichrist
02-11-2009, 05:29 PM
Seriously I am going to organise a comp of atheists verses Christians.

So be brave and put your name down. I t can be Aussie wide.

Atheist players
Antichrist




Christians Players

Desmond
02-11-2009, 07:11 PM
I'm diappointed in you ac, I thought it would be a pro-porn vs pro-xmas battle. Find out where people's loyalties really lie.

Adamski
02-11-2009, 07:57 PM
Seriously I am going to organise a comp of atheists verses Christians.

So be brave and put your name down. I t can be Aussie wide.

Atheist players
Antichrist




Christians PlayersWhen will it be? Kaitlin Ladder rules? If the time suits, put me down for the Christians.

Goughfather
02-11-2009, 11:27 PM
I'll play put my name down to play with the Christians. Of course, Pope Jono may object to this designation and excommunicate me before the match even starts.

Kevin Bonham
02-11-2009, 11:33 PM
I'm worried this is just going to be a mismatch if taken seriously (which, since it's AC, it won't be). There are at least two Christian IMs and one (non-Zonal) FM on this board; are there any known atheists in Aus chess with ratings above 2200?

Basil
02-11-2009, 11:50 PM
I'm worried this is just going to be a mismatch ...
Fear not! He works in mysterious ways!

Bereaved
02-11-2009, 11:55 PM
Well I guess there is no need to choose a team when you are already on one...

Christians FTW!! ( I acknowledge my student for the acronym entering my parlance )

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

ER
03-11-2009, 04:39 AM
hey A/C they 've already petitioned for divine interference! I mean what 'd you expect when you have stuff like God taking sides in Maca's and God exists in Jonathan's signatures! Make sure you get some ex Soviets in the team, they 're all atheists!

Spiny Norman
03-11-2009, 06:33 AM
Maybe AC should allow agnostics to try out for the atheists team? They could have a learner's permit setup. That would tip the scales back the other way ...

ER
03-11-2009, 06:49 AM
Good suggestion SK! :clap: that would contribute for a decent http://www.smileyhut.com/fighting/box.gif (http://www.smileyhut.com)

Kevin Bonham
03-11-2009, 11:23 AM
Or perhaps a better setup would be a kind of interclub format where different broad Christian denominations/leanings each had their own teams, plus one team for atheists (defined very loosely) and one team for others.

antichrist
03-11-2009, 07:44 PM
I'm worried this is just going to be a mismatch if taken seriously (which, since it's AC, it won't be). There are at least two Christian IMs and one (non-Zonal) FM on this board; are there any known atheists in Aus chess with ratings above 2200?

There certainly is or was, but won't mention him publicly yet. He does not post here.

Lee Forace may volunteer for the side with no invisible signs of support but not sure of his leanings. Will sound him out.

I may only have Ukrainian Chess Club title but I am not afraid of IMs.

I know of another top player atheist (maybe), I will sound more out privately.

I reakon yourself and RW will/should be on my side.

black
03-11-2009, 09:09 PM
Something from Alan Watts' Buddhism: Religion of No Religion


Nobody believes in God like an atheist: "There is no God, and I am His prophet."

Will there be other teams?

Igor_Goldenberg
04-11-2009, 09:22 AM
I'm worried this is just going to be a mismatch if taken seriously (which, since it's AC, it won't be). There are at least two Christian IMs and one (non-Zonal) FM on this board; are there any known atheists in Aus chess with ratings above 2200?
Who are those Christian IMs? Solo and Xie? or someone else?

Watto
04-11-2009, 09:54 AM
I'm worried this is just going to be a mismatch if taken seriously (which, since it's AC, it won't be). There are at least two Christian IMs and one (non-Zonal) FM on this board; are there any known atheists in Aus chess with ratings above 2200?
Well, I know at least one IM and have a fair idea that there are several more players of that strength (or greater) in Australia who would fit the bill (especially if agnostics were allowed as TSK suggests.) I'm pretty sure that the atheists team would be equally strong if, for some reason, their lives depended on this very important competition of AC's and they had to sign up for a side ... ;)

Kevin Bonham
04-11-2009, 11:39 AM
Who are those Christian IMs? Solo and Xie?

Yes, those were the two I had in mind based on their statements on this board.

antichrist
04-11-2009, 06:52 PM
I would like to be an OTB comp for the atmosphere, trouble is these players are all scattered down the eastern seaboard?

antichrist
04-11-2009, 06:54 PM
Well, I know at least one IM and have a fair idea that there are several more players of that strength (or greater) in Australia who would fit the bill (especially if agnostics were allowed as TSK suggests.) I'm pretty sure that the atheists team would be equally strong if, for some reason, their lives depended on this very important competition of AC's and they had to sign up for a side ... ;)

Thanks very much for your kick-in-the-pants encouragement. What do you suggest, the death penalty if they don't sign up? And cut their heads off if they lose - like on the old days?

ER
05-11-2009, 12:26 AM
Thanks very much for your kick-in-the-pants encouragement. What do you suggest, the death penalty if they don't sign up? And cut their heads off if they lose - like on the old days?

don't forget the also old but effective burning on stake, that would teach them (you especially) a lesson or two! :P

MichaelBaron
05-11-2009, 01:28 AM
What about those of us who do believe in higher powers and therefore God's existence but do not follow a particular religion. Do we get to play? And whom do we get to play for?;)

ER
05-11-2009, 01:37 AM
What about those of us who do believe in higher powers and therefore God's existence but do not follow a particular religion. Do we get to play? And whom do we get to play for?;)

You guys stay in the corner next to the little guillotine untill further instructions! :P

Spiny Norman
05-11-2009, 04:50 AM
Atheists vs Theists would be very lopsided I think, with the A-team hugely outnumbered. Atheists vs Christians gives the A-team a decent chance, as its the C-team that is outnumbered (at least in Australia it would be).

Desmond
05-11-2009, 08:47 AM
Atheists vs Theists would be very lopsided I think, with the A-team hugely outnumbered. Atheists vs Christians gives the A-team a decent chance, as its the C-team that is outnumbered (at least in Australia it would be).How do you work that one out? Christianity is easily the most dominant religion in Australia.

Lakshman
05-11-2009, 09:00 AM
What about those of us who do believe in higher powers and therefore God's existence but do not follow a particular religion. Do we get to play? And whom do we get to play for?;)

Very logical question MB.

:hmm: Undoubtedly, the answer has to be "You play for the Christians" as Atheists neither believe in higher powers nor God's existence. You are a strong candidate to play for the Christians MB.

PS: Oops, I should not have commented on this topic as I am a Hindu.
KB: Mind you I have no intention of stirring up a religious topic here, the post script above should be taken in good sense of humor,full stop.

Basil
05-11-2009, 09:00 AM
How do you work that one out? Christianity is easily the most dominant religion in Australia.
Isn't it a case of comparing the quantity of people who believe in Christianity v People that don't believe in a God? Then it doesn't matter which is the most dominant religion, as the figure is irrelevant to the first proportion.

Desmond
05-11-2009, 09:15 AM
Isn't it a case of comparing the quantity of people who believe in Christianity v People that don't believe in a God? Then it doesn't matter which is the most dominant religion, as the figure is irrelevant to the first proportion.Well no I would say due to the thread title it is Atheists vs Christians. There are people who don't believe in god but are not atheists. There are people who do but are not Christians. Neither of those groups would participate.

Basil
05-11-2009, 09:37 AM
There are people who don't believe in god but are not atheists.
OK. The semantics and the finesses (while important to those who hold beliefs) are too much for me in deciding a fair enough match-up.


There are people who do but are not Christians.
I understand that these people wouldn't participate.

I'm sorry I stuck my head in :D Seriously - the topic of religion seems to beat the topic of computing platforms by a factor one squillion on the pointy-headed scales.

Sheez - Christians against Atheists. You'd think that was a simple simple enough premise - especially since Theists v Atheists would make the odds even tougher for the atheists.

Carry on!

Desmond
05-11-2009, 10:08 AM
Oh I didn't intend to get bogged down in definitions. I'd be happy to just look at census figures. People who identify as atheists vs people who identify as Christians (i.e. Catholics + COE + AOG + ...). I reckon atheists would be vastly outnumbered. Frosty seems to disagree. I'd be interested to hear his reasoning.

Rincewind
05-11-2009, 11:31 AM
I'd be interested to hear his reasoning.

I seem to remember having this conversation with either Frosty or Jono a while back. Basically census religion is whatever the person professes. This was seen as too weak a definition for the person I was talking to at the time. Sorry, too hard to find the link now.

But I agree with you. Australia is probably around 80% christian by the census definition and while there may be cultural bias in chess players I would expect the figure to be about the same.

I don;t think it is very charitable for someone to profess to be christian and then have someone give a wink and say, "yeah well you say that but you aren't really, are you?" But I guess it is all part of the divisive nature of religion. ;)

Desmond
05-11-2009, 12:30 PM
Yes I recall the coversation. I asked Jono how many true Christians he estimated were in the world but he declined to answer. Might not go down too well if that number is smaller than his reader-base. :doh:

In any event, I'm not sure if that was Frosty's reasoning. Also if you are going to purge the "Christians who just aint practising often enough" and "Christians who hold a view of God only 99.999% or less accurate than what the True Christians believe" from the Christian census list then how are you going to categorise them?

Capablanca-Fan
05-11-2009, 12:33 PM
I'm worried this is just going to be a mismatch if taken seriously (which, since it's AC, it won't be). There are at least two Christian IMs and one (non-Zonal) FM on this board; are there any known atheists in Aus chess with ratings above 2200?
I observed a while ago that the Theist/Agnostic/Atheist poll (http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=6159) showed a higher percentage of atheists among the ChessChat respondents than in the general public. But a chess match between ChessChat theists v ChessChat atheists would end in a big win to the theists side, even with the defaults due to atheists outnumbering theists (although identified theists GF, TonyD and Xie have not voted). However, not all the theists are Christians. Such a match would prove nothing of course.

Capablanca-Fan
05-11-2009, 12:46 PM
I'll play put my name down to play with the Christians. Of course, Pope Jono may object to this designation and excommunicate me before the match even starts.
Don't be crass all your life. I'm on record in my books and articles (http://creation.com/strong-reaction-to-steve-irwin-report) saying that even theistic evolutionists (http://creation.com/creation-compromises#theistic) can be genuine Christians thanks to "blessed inconsistency". I.e. ability to hold mutually contradictory thoughts in the same skull is hardly the unforgivable sin. Same with pacifism and opposition to capital punishment: they are mistaken positions and inconsistent with Scripture, but less serious errors than theistic evolution (by the same reasoning as explained in End-times and Early-times (http://creation.com/end-times-and-early-times)), so draw the a fortiori conclusion about my views.

But I would support excommunicating anyone who denied the Deity of Christ (http://creation.com/defending-vital-doctrines-and-the-deity-of-christ) and His bodily Resurrection (http://creation.com/the-resurrection-and-genesis).

TrueBeliever
05-11-2009, 12:47 PM
As rational and logical thinking are important factors in deciding chess games, one would have thought the atheists would have a big edge

Capablanca-Fan
05-11-2009, 12:52 PM
As rational and logical thinking are important factors in deciding chess games, one would have thought the atheists would have a big edge
One would have thought that this is a crassly illogical statement. There are logical Christians who argue that logic is commended in the Bible and exemplified by the logos Himself (Christ) (http://creation.com/loving-god-with-all-your-mind-logic-and-creation), and illogical atheists (like AC).

Rincewind
05-11-2009, 02:52 PM
As rational and logical thinking are important factors in deciding chess games, one would have thought the atheists would have a big edge

I believing you are affirming the consequent there. Just because someone reaches a logical conclusion, it does not follow they are necessarily a logical person. Perhaps they were just fortunate.

By the same token someone could be highly logical but if they do not apply skepticism to their religious convictions they may profess leanings which are not based on logical reasoning.

Also I don't believe rational and logical thought in one aspect of one's life is all that predictive of chess skill. Many highly skillful chess players seems to border on complete irrationality in a number of other aspects of their lives, one example being Bobby Fischer.

Kevin Bonham
05-11-2009, 03:04 PM
But a chess match between ChessChat theists v ChessChat atheists would end in a big win to the theists side, even with the defaults due to atheists outnumbering theists (although identified theists GF, TonyD and Xie have not voted).

This is probably so although there is a dropoff in strength on both sides past about board 6 so maybe the atheists would have hope on the lower boards.

Oh, and if it was CC the result might be different (Bruce Oates is a senior CC IM), especially if it was freestyle. :lol:

I'm with you about TrueBeliever's statement being twaddle, albeit for different reasons. Atheists are so outnumbered that even their overconcentration among the ranks of the highly intelligent isn't necessarily enough to even the odds. Furthermore while I do agree that there is something anti-rational and illogical at the very basis of theistic/religious belief systems, I have noted before that intelligent theists have one mode of thinking for the basics of their beliefs about God and another for everything else, including chess.

And, as RW notes, rationality and chess skill are not always predictive of each other anyway.

So TB makes the mistake of jumping from <There is something irrational and illogical about theism compared to atheism> to <a theist is likely to be irrational and illogical in general> - and in the process, isn't exactly a great advertisement for his own side's reasoning powers.

By the way I am moving this thread to Religion and Science soon as I do not believe AC's tournament proposal is serious or likely to get off the ground.

TrueBeliever
05-11-2009, 03:25 PM
The edge the atheist have would possibly disappear somewhat as they would be bored to screams by being bombarded by the biblical claptrap coming from the other side

Capablanca-Fan
05-11-2009, 03:37 PM
The edge the atheist have would possibly disappear somewhat as they would be bored to screams by being bombarded by the biblical claptrap coming from the other side
Don't be a moron all your life. Neither side would disobey the law against distracting one's opponent.


By the way I am moving this thread to Religion and Science soon as I do not believe AC's tournament proposal is serious or likely to get off the ground.
I agree with the move.

Spiny Norman
05-11-2009, 05:05 PM
As rational and logical thinking are important factors in deciding chess games, one would have thought the atheists would have a big edge
... but since they don't have a big edge (on the evidence available anyway) its back to the drawing board for you ... ;)

black
06-11-2009, 12:05 AM
I'd be interested in representing all sentient beings. All are welcome. If no such team is formed I'm happy to miss out or play all boards myself.

antichrist
06-11-2009, 03:24 PM
I'd be interested in representing all sentient beings. All are welcome. If no such team is formed I'm happy to miss out or play all boards myself.

what are you flipper, little miss piggy, lassie and skippy all in one - you leave Byron Bay new age for dead! But good luck all the same.

We could have an "blank page" team I suppose. Bill does not seem to show his hand - he could play board 1. I think Gunnar is in the same category? Board 4 with his rating. But don't let him play the Tromp.

black
06-11-2009, 09:45 PM
what are you flipper, little miss piggy, lassie and skippy all in one - you leave Byron Bay new age for dead! But good luck all the same.

We could have an "blank page" team I suppose. Bill does not seem to show his hand - he could play board 1. I think Gunnar is in the same category? Board 4 with his rating. But don't let him play the Tromp.

Interesting use of words.

ER
07-11-2009, 06:44 PM
Interesting use of words.
he just shuffles words and throws them; indiscriminately (misspelled too)! Don't get sucked into an argument with him, it's a waste of time. He can be loveable sometimes but usually he is a pain. He leaves in a tree house, surrounded by snakes, owls and vindictive exs with shotguns and hijabs. Read his interview in the AN INTERVIEW thread around 1st week of 2010. He' ll be on discount!