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antichrist
29-10-2009, 02:35 AM
When war crimes are committed, e.g., Nuremberg, the death penalty was considered appropriate. Some Palestinian freedom fighters/murders/terrorists whichever way you look at it I am sure would be happy to "swing" for their homeland if it also meant that the other side's leaders also swang (or swung), as they are doing suicide bombings already. So what purpose what capital punishment serve then - only to exasparate the already highly-tensed situation. That is probably why Israel does not already do it - only breaks their bones. Though recently a great controversy has broken out coz Palestinians and Europeans have Israel of killing Palestinain prisoners to capture their body parts for sale to rich overseas sickies - if true - they have taken capital punishment into their own hands. ( I was not warned or sanctined for similar post above so assume is safe to do again - thanks mods for understanding)

Capablanca-Fan
30-10-2009, 03:05 PM
Though recently a great controversy has broken out coz Palestinians and Europeans have Israel of killing Palestinain prisoners to capture their body parts for sale to rich overseas sickies — if true — they have taken capital punishment into their own hands.

Col. Richard Kemp, former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, and a veteran of the Gulf War and the conflicts in Northern Ireland, Bosnia, and Macedonia:


"During Operation Cast Lead, the IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare. Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population."

For example, would the Allies in WW2 given the Axis powers 48 hours notice to its enemies of planned operations? Israel did so, dropping 2 million leaflets in advance of army movements. Would the Allies have phoned civilians to warn them to evacuate, as Israel did with 100,000 calls. Hamas' use of human shields is an admission that Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties; human shields would not have stopped either the Nazis or the Soviet Red Army.

Igor_Goldenberg
30-10-2009, 03:20 PM
For example, would the Allies in WW2 given the Axis powers 48 hours notice to its enemies of planned operations?

Allies weren't that stupid.

Would the Allies have phoned civilians to warn them to evacuate, as Israel did with 100,000 calls.

Allies weren't that stupid.


Hamas' use of human shields is an admission that Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties;
Hamas' (and Hezbullah's) use of human shields is an admission that Israel is stupid.

Saragossa
30-10-2009, 03:35 PM
Allies weren't that stupid.
Allies didn't have a problem with murdering innocents.


Allies weren't that stupid.
As I said.


Hamas' (and Hezbullah's) use of human shields is an admission that Israel is stupid.

Also an admission that they are complete cowards who are willing to endanger lives.

Igor_Goldenberg
30-10-2009, 04:04 PM
Allies didn't have a problem with murdering innocents.


As I said.



Also an admission that they are complete cowards who are willing to endanger lives.
That's my point. Israel is the only one who tries to avoid civilian casualties. And the only one who is smacked for supposedly murdering civilians.

Saragossa
30-10-2009, 04:18 PM
I apologise I know see I misinterpreted what you were saying.

antichrist
30-10-2009, 05:46 PM
Posts 38-42 are off topic I regret to say. My original statements hold up for purpose of discussion as at this stage that have not been disproven by the international authorities investigating them.

If they happen to be declared gray area they are still worthy of discussion.

Hundreds of years ago Jews were accused of the blood libel and were put to death in revenge - I don't accept that they were guilty, but is still an interesting premise to discuss as is the supposed crucifixition of Christ.

So considering that mob mentality exists coupled with superstition, as with the Salem witch trials, maybe the death penalty should not be on the statute books.

Ian Murray
30-10-2009, 09:15 PM
That's my point. Israel is the only one who tries to avoid civilian casualties.
Not so on the ground, according to Israeli newspaper reports:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

Kevin Bonham
30-10-2009, 09:23 PM
Posts 38-42 are off topic I regret to say.

Moderation Notice

These are now #2 onwards on this split thread. #1 (yours) was also off-topic as the thread question was about whether you could imagine a case in which you could support the death penalty, and you did not answer the question.

I will allow this one to run for now as a split thread but given the past history of such discussions on this site, all posters (and especially antichrist) are warned to be cautious in their comments. If it becomes too heated or in any way illegal it will be immediately locked. If antichrist is the cause of such a situation he will be permanently banned from mentioning or referring to anything to do with Israel or Palestine (including by implication) in any way on this forum.

Capablanca-Fan
31-10-2009, 01:17 AM
A moral atrocity: (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/20/israel-goldstone-palestine-gaza-un)
Judge Goldstone has been suckered into letting war criminals use his name to pillory Israel
Harold Evans
The Guardian, 20 October 2009

Aren't the British sickened by the moral confusions of their government? First, we have the weasel words to justify the unjustifiable release of the Lockerbie bomber. Now we have the sickening spectacle of Britain failing to stand by Israel, the only democracy with an independent judiciary in the entire region.

It was to be expected that the usual suspects of the risible UN human rights council would be eager to condemn Israel for war crimes in defending itself against Hamas. If you treat people as the Chinese do the Tibetans or Uighurs ("Off with their heads!"); or as the Russians eliminate Chechen dissidents; or as the Nigerians tolerate extrajudicial killings, the evictions of 800,000, rape and cruel treatment of prisoners; or as the Egyptians get prisoners to talk (torture) and the Saudis suppress half their population … well, go through the practices of all 25 states voting to refer Israel to the security council for the Gaza war, and you have to acknowledge they know a lot about the abuse of humans. Anything to divert attention from their own atrocities.

...

In signing on for the UN mission — with others who had already condemned Israel — it seems to have escaped the judge that Hamas is committed not just to fight Israeli soldiers; it is a terrorist organisation hellbent on the destruction of the state of Israel. The terms of reference he accepted validate the torment of Israeli civilians. Hamas launched 7,000 rockets — every one intended to kill as many people as possible — then contemptuously dismissed repeated warnings from Israel to stop or face the consequences.

The rockets were war crimes and ought to have been universally condemned as such. While new rockets hit Israel over many months there was no rush by the world's moralisers — including Britain — to censure Hamas, no urgency as there was in "world opinion" when Israel finally responded. Then Israel was immediately accused of a "disproportionate" response without anyone thinking: "What is a 'proportionate' attack against an enemy dedicated to exterminating your people?" A dedication to exterminating all of his?

...

Capablanca-Fan
31-10-2009, 11:25 AM
‘Just means against an unjust attack’
Saturday, October 24, 2009
Lally Weymouth of Newsweek and The Post interviewed Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Jerusalem (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/23/AR2009102303591.html).

Q: What did you think of the Goldstone report?
A: I thought there were limits to hypocrisy but I was obviously wrong. The so-called human rights commission accuses Israel that legitimately defended itself against Hamas of war crimes. Mind you, Hamas didn't commit just one type of war crime. It committed four. First, they called for the destruction of Israel, which under the U.N. Charter is considered a war crime — incitement to genocide; secondly, they fired deliberately on civilians; third, they hid behind civilians; and fourth, they've been holding our captured soldier, Gilad Shalit, without access to the Red Cross, for three years.
And who gets accused of criminal behavior at the end of the day? Israel that sent thousands of text messages and made tens of thousands of cellular phone calls to Palestinian civilians [to warn them to evacuate]. This inversion of justice is patently absurd.

...

Q:That's why you think the report is so dangerous?

A: This gives terrorist regimes a new weapon against democracies and even against non-democracies — it allows them to attack entire cities with weapons of mass terror and get away with it simply because they fire the rockets from populated areas. In the case of Hamas, they deliberately targeted civilians while hiding behind civilians. So our attempted surgical strikes would be attacked as [acts of] war criminals. There's a world of difference between the incidental civilian casualties that are tragic in any war and the deliberate targeting of civilians.

Now [comes] the new tactic, which is the deliberate targeting of civilians while using civilians as a human shield. A double war crime. [But] the U.N. commission in Geneva added insult to injury by condemning Israel. It's a complete inversion of the facts, which is more[or] less what this report does. It just stands truth and justice on its head. So the simplest way to deal with this [report] is to tell the truth. The United States did that with great clarity.

Ian Murray
01-11-2009, 12:05 AM
I recognise that the Goldstone and other reports are frequently biased against Israel, and I do not accept them at face value

However it seems to me that reports in an Israeli newspaper are unlikely to be anti-Israel biased, so the Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html) report warrants serious evaluation.

The firing of rockets by Hamas into Israel does not justify indiscriminate shooting of non-combatant Arab civilians - women and children specifically targeted - by IDF soldiers.

Capablanca-Fan
01-11-2009, 11:03 AM
I recognise that the Goldstone and other reports are frequently biased against Israel, and I do not accept them at face value
Good.


However it seems to me that reports in an Israeli newspaper are unlikely to be anti-Israel biased, so the Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html) report warrants serious evaluation.
Why not? Some Australian papers are biased against Australia; many American papers wanted America to lose in Iraq and Vietnam. Israel has many diverse political parties. There is even a joke about three Israelis marooned on a desert island; when they were rescued two years later, there were already five political parties. And Israel and Hamas have one thing in common: in both places, people can safely praise Arafat and curse Netanyahu.

Note also, the report says: “IDF sharpshooter mistakenly shot a Palestinian mother and her two children” as opposed to Hamas intentionally targeting civilians with their rockets, without hardly a whimper of protest from the UN.


The firing of rockets by Hamas into Israel does not justify indiscriminate shooting of non-combatant Arab civilians — women and children specifically targeted — by IDF soldiers.
It does justify shooting back at whatever building houses that rocket. Israel is stupid (as IG says) by trying so hard to minimize casualties, and gets no thanks for it. The Allies were not so careful in WW2. E.g. that report cited an IDF: “The lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers.” Cf. the Allies would have said the same about the Germans during WW2.

Igor_Goldenberg
01-11-2009, 04:33 PM
However it seems to me that reports in an Israeli newspaper are unlikely to be anti-Israel biased...

You'd be surprised. Haaretz is especially notorious.

Ian Murray
01-11-2009, 08:19 PM
The IDF Rules of Engagement (http://ezinearticles.com/?The-IDFs-Rules-of-Engagement-During-the-Gaza-Conflict&id=2941308) in Gaza were fit and proper and as to be expected for western military forces.

However, if Haaretz is correctly reporting eyewitness accounts by fellow soldiers, the ROE were not being observed by troops on the ground and, more significantly, breaches were disregarded by their officers. I find this lack of discipline disturbing.

bobby1972
01-11-2009, 08:35 PM
can someone answer this question goldstone is a zionist so why would he make such a report?????????????????????? he might be telling it like it is,i mean this man fought against apartheid at his own personal risk.

Capablanca-Fan
01-11-2009, 10:33 PM
can someone answer this question goldstone is a zionist so why would he make such a report?????????????????????? he might be telling it like it is,i mean this man fought against apartheid at his own personal risk.
A weaselly pleaser who says what he thinks his audience wants to hear. See Goldstone Backs Away from Report: The Two Faces of an International Poseur (http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/10/goldstone-backs-away-from-report-the-two-faces-of-an-international-poseur.php) by Alan Dershowitz, Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law, Harvard Law School.

Capablanca-Fan
01-11-2009, 10:36 PM
The IDF Rules of Engagement (http://ezinearticles.com/?The-IDFs-Rules-of-Engagement-During-the-Gaza-Conflict&id=2941308) in Gaza were fit and proper and as to be expected for western military forces.
IG's assessment is better: Israel is stupid. "Proportionality" is a modern invention. Nazi Germany and Japan didn't bomb American cities, so America shouldn't have bombed theirs? The death toll of the Japs was much higher than that of the Yanx, so by the "reasoning" of many apologists for the "Palestinian" terrorists, the Americans must have been the bad guys.

Ian Murray
02-11-2009, 06:53 AM
IG's assessment is better: Israel is stupid. "Proportionality" is a modern invention. Nazi Germany and Japan didn't bomb American cities, so America shouldn't have bombed theirs? The death toll of the Japs was much higher than that of the Yanx, so by the "reasoning" of many apologists for the "Palestinian" terrorists, the Americans must have been the bad guys.
Apples and oranges. That was a world war.

Israel is not at war with Gaza. USA is not at war with Iraq. Australia is not at war with Afghanistan. Limited actions require a limited response, defined by rules of engagement.

Capablanca-Fan
02-11-2009, 10:37 AM
Apples and oranges. That was a world war.
Same principles apply. "Proportionality" is a modern leftist handwringing term designed to stop Israel perventing acts of violence against itself.


Israel is not at war with Gaza.
The rulers of Gaza are clearly at war with Israel. Indeed, calling for the wiping out of Israel/Jews would be a war crime if applied to any other country/ethnicity.


Limited actions require a limited response, defined by rules of engagement.
That's nonsense. At any other time and place, any aggression towards a country would be met by enough force to prevent further aggression. And if the aggressor uses human shields, they are responsible for their deaths, not the party responding to that aggression.

antichrist
02-11-2009, 03:45 PM
I will get back to this thread later when more time but the SMH reported Gladstone as a ardent Zionist but he was accused by Zionist "fascist" of being a self-hating Jew and sell out etc..

Cant this thread be rechristened "Blood On Hands 2"

Desmond
02-11-2009, 04:08 PM
Could drowning infants ever be proportionate?

antichrist
02-11-2009, 04:15 PM
The only interest that I know that Christians have in the Israel cause is that it will fulfill their ridiculous prophecy that when all the Jews return to Israel or something than Armageddon will come. Some thing crazy like that. And they don't mind if a nuke war brings it on.
Religious nuts are ruining this world.

Capablanca-Fan
02-11-2009, 04:53 PM
The only interest that I know that Christians have in the Israel cause is that it will fulfill their ridiculous prophecy that when all the Jews return to Israel or something than Armageddon will come. Some thing crazy like that. And they don't mind if a nuke war brings it on.
How would you know? Have you asked representative Christian supporters of Israel? I support Israel because it's the historic homeland of the Jews, and has been continuously occupied by them. I have no interest in encouraging Jews to migrate unless they want to. Conversely, the countries most opposed to Israel are judenrein.


Religious nuts are ruining this world.
What would you know, atheopathic nut?

antichrist
02-11-2009, 04:55 PM
[QUOTE=Jono]How would you know? Have you asked representative Christian supporters of Israel? I support Israel because it's the historic homeland of the Jews, and has been continuously occupied by them. I have no interest in encouraging Jews to migrate unless they want to. Conversely, the countries most opposed to Israel are judenrein.

Are you saying that every piece land that every has been stained by any people becomes their homeland?

And as that other Christian used to say: you fly with the crows you get shot with the crows.

Adamski
02-11-2009, 04:58 PM
How would you know? Have you asked representative Christian supporters of Israel? I support Israel because it's the historic homeland of the Jews, and has been continuously occupied by them. I have no interest in encouraging Jews to migrate unless they want to. Conversely, the countries most opposed to Israel are judenrein.Fully agree. :clap:

antichrist
02-11-2009, 05:00 PM
The Jews historic homeland is back of Iraq somewhere. The Jews may have also been in Egypt on their way to Palestine, does that also make Egypt their homeland.

They were also in Europe does that also make it their homeland. They are going to own the whole bloody world the way they are going.

Capablanca-Fan
02-11-2009, 05:09 PM
The Jews historic homeland is back of Iraq somewhere. The Jews may have also been in Egypt on their way to Palestine, does that also make Egypt their homeland.
The traditional home of the Jewish nation included the modern state of Israel. Jerusalem has been their historic capital for three millennia.


They were also in Europe does that also make it their homeland.
They never claimed so. Jews were in Europe after being expelled from their homeland, and always looked to the land around Jerusalem as their real earthly home. Their Passover long reflected this hope by including "next year in Jerusalem".

After the State of Israel was founded in 1948, many Arab countries (who had been mostly allied to the Nazis) declared themselves judenrein, expelling Jews who had lived there for generations and stealing their property (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/jewref.html). Yet of the 820,000 Jewish refugees, 586,000 were resettled in Israel, despite being ¼ the size of Tassie, at great expense, and without any offer of compensation from the Arab governments who confiscated their possessions. The UN thugocracy and "world opinion" care nothing for these refugees. But Arabs, with hundreds of times Israel's land area, refuse to resettle the Arabs from Israel who left at the urging of the Arab armies until they had pushed the Jews into the Mediterranean.


They are going to own the whole bloody world the way they are going.
What, do you accept the Blood Libel and Protocols of the Elders of Zion too? Both are popular in modern Arab countries.

Capablanca-Fan
02-11-2009, 05:50 PM
Jono from up above somewhere
No. The rebellion was crushed in AD 135, and Jerusalem was plowed under, renamed Aelia Capitolina, and declared off-limits to the Jews.

So Jerusalem ceased to be the Jewish homeland.
Didn't stop them staying around; there was a continuous presence.


If the Jews can reclaim it back why can't also the Palestinians who have been declared off limits by current day Zionists?
Who are the Palestinians? What is their capital? Currency? Name their last 10 leaders?

Fact: the original "Palestine", previously part of the Ottoman Empire, was partitioned: ¼ Jewish (Israel) and ¾ Arab. The latter was named "Transjordan" (across the Jordan river) then just Jordan. Jordan is thus the Palestinian Arab state.

The Arabs on the other side originally never wanted a separate "Palestinian" state, but to be part of Syria.

So the modern "Palestinian statehood" is a historical fraud. There has never been a separate Arab state there.

Ian Murray
02-11-2009, 08:19 PM
Same principles apply. "Proportionality" is a modern leftist handwringing term designed to stop Israel perventing acts of violence against itself.


The rulers of Gaza are clearly at war with Israel. Indeed, calling for the wiping out of Israel/Jews would be a war crime if applied to any other country/ethnicity.


That's nonsense. At any other time and place, any aggression towards a country would be met by enough force to prevent further aggression. And if the aggressor uses human shields, they are responsible for their deaths, not the party responding to that aggression.
Fortunately wiser heads prevail and ROE were framed to protect civilians (more than 80% of the Gaza/West Bank population does not support Hamas).

However I remain disturbed by the apparent lack of discipline by troops on the ground in failing to comply with the rules of engagement or exercise judgment in compliance.

Capablanca-Fan
02-11-2009, 08:56 PM
Fortunately wiser heads prevail
Is it so wise? We might still be fighting Nazi Germany and Warlord Japan if the Allies had followed such laws instead of bombing them into submission. Ruthlessly forcing unconditional surrender was the only way to stop the problem coming back.

When Israel plays softly-softly instead of bombing the crap out any building where a rocket is fired from, the problem is never solved. And Israel wins no friends anyway by its wimpishness; its enemies regard it as a sign of weakness and are emboldened.


and ROE were framed to protect civilians (more than 80% of the Gaza/West Bank population does not support Hamas).
Really? How come they won a large majority in the elections?


However I remain disturbed by the apparent lack of discipline by troops on the ground in failing to comply with the rules of engagement or exercise judgment in compliance.
But Israel at least has those rules that should silence its enemies if they had the slightest sense of fair play. Conversely Hamas is open about its rules of engagement: kill as many Jews as possible.

Ian Murray
03-11-2009, 03:18 PM
Really? How come they won a large majority in the elections?
Current poll (http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2009/69_oct_english.pdf)

antichrist
26-10-2010, 09:47 AM
Is it your another "racist interpretation"?

I would consider it a racist interpretation of humankind's history to claim that a god gave a certain so called Chosen People land that was already occupied by another people, and that on request that god made the sun stand still to enable a holocaust to occur.

antichrist
27-10-2010, 09:31 PM
You are not obliged to, but pointing to your opponent (s)he forgot to press the clock is a good sporting spirit.

AC
the same could not be said for Israel's tactics of torture, robbery, hijacking, chemical warfare etc

antichrist
29-10-2010, 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by Adamski
I agree with Igor. The 99.98% figure is meaningless.

AC
well that figure would roughly be the percentage of land that Isreal has illegally and/or immorally stolen from the Palestinians. And so Isreal's grab could be meaningless and it is still all bets on all Palestinian land for Palestinians - you beauty

Capablanca-Fan
07-11-2010, 10:18 AM
Apparently Israel is the one country that isn't allowed to defend itself. "World opinion" is OK with the spilling of Jewish blood.

OaGHUZ-8DWw&feature=player_embedded

Igor_Goldenberg
07-11-2010, 11:02 AM
Thanks Jono, good clip.

antichrist
08-11-2010, 05:29 AM
The whole argument is so simple - because there is no God there is no justification for Israel. The early Hebrews committed genocide against Canaanites 3, 000 years ago supposedly based on God's promise - but he does not exist so it was an evil massacre just like what Hitler done.

And now Zionists abuse that original holocaust by using it to justify another genocide of Palestinians in the 20 & 21st century.

That is why you must justify your god's existence - to keep the lie and Israel alive.

But be warned - you can only fool all the people part of the time - not all of the time, and the clock and people are turning.

Capablanca-Fan
08-11-2010, 01:59 PM
What a half-wit. No genocide exists, except in the mind of the Iranian president, Hamas (Hebrew for "violence") and Hizbollah—against the Jews. Palestinian Arabs have far more to fear from their fellow Arabs than from the Israelis. Israel is the one country in the region where Arabs have voting rights!

Igor_Goldenberg
08-11-2010, 02:34 PM
What a half-wit.
You are very generous. A/C hates Israel with such passion that he manages to exceed even his own standard of illogical stupidity. I remember the debate four years ago where all his arguments were de-constructed and often shown as a lies (sometimes quite blatant), yet he kept repeating it over and over again.

Since then I ignore his dribble on the subject, but anyone else is welcome with a simple caveat. I expect anyone who repeats A/C drivel to take full responsibility for it (which means ability to substantiate it with facts and accept embarrassment if claims are shown to be phoney).

antichrist
08-11-2010, 05:46 PM
What a half-wit. No genocide exists, except in the mind of the Iranian president, Hamas (Hebrew for "violence") and Hizbollah—against the Jews. Palestinian Arabs have far more to fear from their fellow Arabs than from the Israelis. Israel is the one country in the region where Arabs have voting rights!

The first genocide was against the Canaanites, it is your own "holy" book. Israel has pushed Palestinians off their land, and those left make them follow all sorts of cultural denial - for example, they were not allowed to mention the ethnic cleansing that took place in early days of Israel and is still going on. That is the second genocide.Yes they may have voting rights - but all the millions of dispersed Palestinians also have right of return and to also vote - that would outnumber the Jews in a matter of ten years. So that is why Israel is not really democratic - it denies votes to millions of people who have the right to live there. That is international law.

Answer, how does a genocide 3,000 years ago justify cultural and ethnic cleansing today?

antichrist
08-11-2010, 05:57 PM
If you want it short and succint: Israel is robbery and state terrorism - nothing more and nothing less

MichaelBaron
09-11-2010, 01:55 PM
If you want it short and succint: Israel is robbery and state terrorism - nothing more and nothing less
In short - it is other way around: Israel is the only civilized nation in the middle-east. The rest are barbarians! Nothing more and nothing less

arosar
09-11-2010, 01:59 PM
In short - it is other way around: Israel is the only civilized nation in the middle-east. The rest are barbarians! Nothing more and nothing less

You mean all them Arabs and Persians - Christians, Muslims, and a whole bunch of other religions combined? They are all barbarians?

Igor_Goldenberg
09-11-2010, 08:39 PM
You mean all them Arabs and Persians - Christians, Muslims, and a whole bunch of other religions combined? They are all barbarians?
If I understood Michael correctly he was comparing Israel to other countries, not Jews to other nations or Judaism to other religion. How many Middle-Eastern states provide the same level of rights and freedom as Israel?

antichrist
09-11-2010, 08:42 PM
In short - it is other way around: Israel is the only civilized nation in the middle-east. The rest are barbarians! Nothing more and nothing less

That is right, more unadulterated propraganda, and even if was correct is totally irrelevant. The same could be said about Aborigines in this country but it does not diminish their deserved ownership of this land in any form.

So following your argument - if another "superior" race appeared on the scene it would have the right to committ genocide against the Israeli Jews - Zionists seemed to have learnt their lessons from Hitler pretty well.

Only trouble is that Hitler learnt them from the Ancient Hebrews - they are in the Jewish Holy Book just check it out about Joshua's Longest Day when their god made the sun stand still to kill all children and women. What a proud record some Zionists have.

antichrist
10-11-2010, 09:45 PM
In short - it is other way around: Israel is the only civilized nation in the middle-east. The rest are barbarians! Nothing more and nothing less

I think that Hitler used to say exactly the same about European Jews about 80 years ago - a lower class who were contaminating the civilised Germans.


As Israel's response is correct against sub-humans now does that justify Hitler's final solution of supposedly "sub-human" Jews 80 years ago?

Capablanca-Fan
11-11-2010, 12:58 PM
I think that Hitler used to say exactly the same about European Jews about 80 years ago — a lower class who were contaminating the civilised Germans.
Except that the European Jews were not blowing up school buses, flying planes into buildings, and forcing pregnant women to become suicide bombers. Rather, they were patriots, businessmen, scientists and doctors (and chessmasters).


As Israel's response is correct against sub-humans now does that justify Hitler's final solution of supposedly "sub-human" Jews 80 years ago?
Israel's response is purely self-defence. If the Arabs put down their weapons, there would be no more war. But if Israel put down its weapons, there would be no more Israel, not that AC would mind.

antichrist
11-11-2010, 01:05 PM
Except that the European Jews were not blowing up school buses, flying planes into buildings, and forcing pregnant women to become suicide bombers. Rather, they were patriots, businessmen, scientists and doctors (and chessmasters).


Israel's response is purely self-defence. If the Arabs put down their weapons, there would be no more war. But if Israel put down its weapons, there would be no more Israel, not that AC would mind.


AC
But when the Jews did retaliate against Nazi persecution it was in the form of terrorism coz that was the only manner in which they could. And what did Hitler did then, rule that for ever German officer killed by Jews that 60 Jews would be killed in retaliation i.e. collective punishment.

Exactly the same that Israel is doing against Palestinians now - in Gaza the seize, the Wall, checkpoints and all the other kind of impediments.

And BTW when the Palestinians do bomb, they are only bombing their own terroritory - what has been stolen from them. At least the Jews could not claim that when they retaliated against the Nazis in Germany.

Even when the Arab had weapons (WW1 variety that is why they lost) they had their land stolen, and now with no weapons in Left Bank much more is being stolen. Only announced yesterday of a few more thousand illegal settler homes to be built, against UN and international law.

So I consider some Zionists to be nothing better than professional robbers - and the Israeli Peace Now group agrees with me, they document every case of robbery.

Capablanca-Fan
11-11-2010, 01:12 PM
If I understood Michael correctly he was comparing Israel to other countries, not Jews to other nations or Judaism to other religion. How many Middle-Eastern states provide the same level of rights and freedom as Israel?
I think that was the only reasonable way to understand him. The phrase "the rest" always poses the question, "rest of what?", and the antecedent phrase was "only civilized nation", so it must mean "rest of the nations" in that region.

antichrist
11-11-2010, 01:41 PM
What freedom did the original Israelis prodvide when they invaded 3,000 years ago, they used barbarian terrorism - killing all women and children - and it is this genocide that some current Israelis use to justify today's state terrorism (and Stern Gang earlier terrorism) to create the current Jewish state.

Talk about being on the nose.

Except for the left/liberal Jews who are completely horrified at what fellow Jews are doing in their name.

Talk about being heros

Igor_Goldenberg
11-11-2010, 03:57 PM
It's funny how some Bible-bashers invoke the same Bible when trying to make a point (absolutely irrelevant, BTW).

antichrist
11-11-2010, 06:55 PM
It's funny how some Bible-bashers invoke the same Bible when trying to make a point (absolutely irrelevant, BTW).

Igor, good point and not irrelevant at all - both groups (Bible-Bashers & Hebrews) are wrong, there is no God to save them nor give them a Promised Land to the other mob.

Capablanca-Fan
11-11-2010, 11:48 PM
Yes, interesting how AC appeals to a miraculous event in the Bible and still holds it against Israelis! Of course, Jews have had a presence in the land for millennia, while the idea of a Palestinian Arab State (apart from Jordan) is only a few decades old.

antichrist
12-11-2010, 12:21 AM
Yes, interesting how AC appeals to a miraculous event in the Bible and still holds it against Israelis! Of course, Jews have had a presence in the land for millennia, while the idea of a Palestinian Arab State (apart from Jordan) is only a few decades old.

Miraculous event my backside - it was pure and unadulterated robbery and genocide just like todays version of Zionism is.

The Jews had presence there but it was just like Hitler and German presence in Poland during their Nazi phrase - like the Jews' Nazi phrase of 60 years duration.

And the Jews did not have a state there 3,000 years ago so their claim is less than the Palestinians, who some claim to be the decendants of the Philistines who the Jews claim they turfed out 3 thousand years ago.

The Jews belong back of Iraq somewhere - their claim that God told them this and gave them that is complete rubbish - laughed at by scientific people. And they were only turfed out of Iraq in retaliation for Israel turfing Palestinians out of Palestine.

antichrist
12-11-2010, 12:27 AM
In short - it is other way around: Israel is the only civilized nation in the middle-east. The rest are barbarians! Nothing more and nothing less

And it was exactly this attitude that inspired the Hebron Massacre of Jews by Arabs. The foreign Jews (as differing to the local ones) were extremely arrogant to Arab and Jews alike. I seen a doco from Israel displaying such.

Just like some of our migrants come and put poop on the Aborigines - when they are on Aboriginal land - tell them to piss off back to where they come from with a mandatory kick up the backside for good measure and to hurry them up.

Rincewind
12-11-2010, 12:27 AM
It's funny how some Bible-bashers invoke the same Bible when trying to make a point (absolutely irrelevant, BTW).

We know what you meant Iggy, but for your own edification, outside of the US, a bible-basher is not someone who criticises the bible, it is a Christian who forces the bible on those around them. Usually door to door or in the street. I believe they use the term "witnessing" I prefer the term god-botherers. AC is as far from a bible-basher as one could imagine.

antichrist
12-11-2010, 12:36 AM
We know what you meant Iggy, but for your own edification, outside of the US, a bible-basher is not someone who criticises the bible, it is a Christian who forces the bible on those around them. Usually door to door or in the street. I believe they use the term "witnessing" I prefer the term god-botherers. AC is as far from a bible-basher as one could imagine.

I prefer to be Igor's version if you dont mind, and Igor was wrong, it would have been relevant if it was correct. I would have been a hypocrite.

What I find hypocritical is the conflict between the Judeo and Christian versions of God - one is vengeful and teaches robbery and genocide, whereas the same guy in the Christian wig was a socialist (if he existed and the stories true) - except Hell was your com-upperance for denying Him.

Rincewind
12-11-2010, 12:46 AM
... and Igor was wrong, ...

Well now there is a turn up for the books. :lol:

I can't for the life see why one should be surprised that a critic of the Bible should quote the Bible. I mean, how else would it be possible to criticise it without pointing out the hypocrisy.

You're also correct about the atrocities described in the conquest of the promised land. "Kill all the men, women and children, except for the virgin girls who you can keep for yourselves." Yep, Moses was all class.

Capablanca-Fan
12-11-2010, 08:11 AM
What I find hypocritical is the conflict between the Judeo and Christian versions of God — one is vengeful and teaches robbery and genocide, whereas the same guy in the Christian wig was a socialist (if he existed and the stories true) — except Hell was your com-upperance for denying Him.
More crap. Both testaments are consistent, with many OT passages stressing God's patience and mercy, while Jesus spoke about judgement, the opposite of the caricature. There was nothing socialist about Jesus: he urged people to be generous with their own money; socialists are generous only with other people's money.

And for a refutation of this false claim of genocide by the biblical Israelites, see also Is the Bible ‘evil’? Moral accusations against God and Scripture fall flat (http://creation.com/evil-bible-fallacies) by New Testament scholar Lita Cosner, 21 September 2010. If the atheopaths really want to show concern for murder, they could start with all those murdered by atheistic/evolutionary regimes: 77 million in Communist China, 62 million in the Soviet Gulag State, 21 million non-battle killings by the Nazis, 2 million murdered in the Khmer Rouge killing fields. Rincy thinks Prof. Rummel is exaggerating, although it's more likely he has understated the atrocities, but even if this twice the real number it's still an enormity.

Rincewind
12-11-2010, 08:37 AM
More crap. Both testaments are consistent, with many OT passages stressing God's patience and mercy

Numbers 31:17-18

"Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

Patience and mercy? Right... ;)

antichrist
12-11-2010, 03:04 PM
Now Jono, your article was prepared by a Biblical expert, right?

Yet RW above, a non expert was to poke holes in it immediately.

Why didn't your "expert" quote numbers as RW has?

Your OT God, the same God that the Ancient Hebrews relied upon to genocide the Philistines, Canaanites etc was nothing than another Sloban Milsoeveic, and should be put up for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

That goes for Moses as well - they should drag him behind a horse and cart like what happened to Mussolini after the war.

Now explain to me in simple terms how a genocide committed 3,000 years ago justifies robbery and genocide today?Numbers 31:17-18

"Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

Capablanca-Fan
12-11-2010, 05:17 PM
Now Jono, your article was prepared by a Biblical expert, right?
Yes.


Yet RW above, a non expert was to poke holes in it immediately.
Non-expert is right. Poking holes is just AC-speak for ignorance of the context.


Why didn't your "expert" quote numbers as RW has?
Why bother, when RW is just a village atheopath, who ignores that these groups had several hundred years to repent, were aggressors, child sacrificers and other atrocious things, and refused the chance to leave peacefully. See also How could a God of Love order the massacre/annihilation of the Canaanites? (http://christianthinktank.com/qamorite.html)


Now explain to me in simple terms how a genocide committed 3,000 years ago justifies robbery and genocide today?Numbers 31:17-18
Explain to me in simple terms if even one of the founders of Israel appealed to this passage.

Rincewind
12-11-2010, 06:18 PM
Why bother, when RW is just a village atheopath, who ignores that these groups had several hundred years to repent, were aggressors, child sacrificers and other atrocious things, and refused the chance to leave peacefully.

So the boy children had to be punished for the sins of their fathers, but the girls didn't because...?

antichrist
12-11-2010, 08:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antichrist
Now explain to me in simple terms how a genocide committed 3,000 years ago justifies robbery and genocide today?Numbers 31:17-18

Jono
Explain to me in simple terms if even one of the founders of Israel appealed to this passage.
__________________
AC
Israelis today base their claim to their occupation 2,800 years ago, well that occupation was facillitated by genocide on Canaanites, Philistines etc. as written in their Holy Book.

So it was an immoral occupation, as if Germany had retained Europe and that retention justified their ownership that it does not. Just as the Austrian-Hungarian empire did not transfer ownership to Austria and Hungary.

What the UN did in 1948 is no more moral or just as to what happened to West Papua 50 years ago when Indonesia grabbed it and the natives are still fighting for their freedom. Those freedom fighters will probably be deemed terrorists soon - just as Palestinian freedom fighters are called terrorists.

But as the saying goes - there cannot be peace without justice.

It is Germany that has Blood on Their Hands concerning modern Jews - they should take their revenge out on the Germans not the Palestinians.

antichrist
12-11-2010, 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antichristCoz God helped the Israelites is that fair? Doesn't He believe in a fair fight?

JonoHe created both sides so has the right to get involve as He sees fit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by antichrist
why did he have it in for the Cannanites? Does not he believe in multiculturalism?


Jono
Sure, but not multimoralism that includes gross sexual immorality and child sacrifice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by antichrist
Isn't it a war crime and genocide to wipe out civilians and the whole population?

Jono
God created them, so has the right to destroy them. He gave them centuries of warning

-----------------------------------------------------

AC (today)
Now Jono, this is the type of reply I appreciate - not some rubbish from someone outside the board.

Your answer above means that woman should be able have an abortion - after all it is her foetus - now you are in more poop mate.

Oepty
12-11-2010, 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antichristCoz God helped the Israelites is that fair? Doesn't He believe in a fair fight?

JonoHe created both sides so has the right to get involve as He sees fit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by antichrist
why did he have it in for the Cannanites? Does not he believe in multiculturalism?


Jono
Sure, but not multimoralism that includes gross sexual immorality and child sacrifice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by antichrist
Isn't it a war crime and genocide to wipe out civilians and the whole population?

Jono
God created them, so has the right to destroy them. He gave them centuries of warning

-----------------------------------------------------

AC (today)
Now Jono, this is the type of reply I appreciate - not some rubbish from someone outside the board.

Your answer above means that woman should be able have an abortion - after all it is her foetus - now you are in more poop mate.

No idiot. Every baby is a gift from God whether acknowledged or not. Murdering the most helpless member of society is always wrong despite the massacare that happens around the world.
Scott

antichrist
12-11-2010, 11:23 PM
No idiot. Every baby is a gift from God whether acknowledged or not. Murdering the most helpless member of society is always wrong despite the massacare that happens around the world.
Scott

I am just taking Jono's logic to it's logical conclusion. God created us then God can destroy us, so a woman and man created a foetus, so that woman and man can destroy it. Or even if a child they could destroy it.

Capablanca-Fan
13-11-2010, 01:05 AM
I am just taking Jono's logic to it's logical conclusion. God created us then God can destroy us, so a woman and man created a foetus, so that woman and man can destroy it. Or even if a child they could destroy it.
No they didn't. God created the child via the parents' genetic material and sex act.

Capablanca-Fan
13-11-2010, 01:13 AM
It is Germany that has Blood on Their Hands concerning modern Jews - they should take their revenge out on the Germans not the Palestinians.
But the Palestinians were allies of the Nazis, especially Arafat's uncle and mentor Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/ahmadinejad-holocausts-my_b_66630.html), buddy of Hitler and Eichmann and raiser of a Muslim SS division.
IBFBvceJvIU&feature=related

antichrist
13-11-2010, 08:56 AM
No they didn't. God created the child via the parents' genetic material and sex act.

Well ultimately you are saying that God is responsible for all the overpopulation, sexual disesaes everything - then we have no sins to atone for and stupid Jesus got cruficied for nothing.

So Jesus was responsible for Hitler - well God created him via his parents.

Thanks Jono, now the Palestinians can go out and be suicide bombers and blame it all on God.

antichrist
13-11-2010, 09:05 AM
But the Palestinians were allies of the Nazis, especially Arafat's uncle and mentor Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, buddy of Hitler and Eichmann and raiser of a Muslim SS division.

AC
Jono, I make a point of 99% not viewing those videos coz they usually convinced me nothing, and many were not even relevant to anything anyone was claiming. (and I have warned you many times about them)

Even if that was the case concerning Arafat's relos that does not diminish the Palestinian case in Palestine. They claim to be decendants of Philistines going back 3,000 years ago and still have it in the for Ancient Hewbrews/Jews for what they done back then - stealing their land back then.

If you believe in the Torah eye-for-eye, Hitler was just repaying the Ancient Hewbrewic genocide of 3,000 years ago. You cant have it both ways. If the Zionists can work in long time frames of 3,000 years (in claiming back land) then Hitler can also work in long time frames - the Torah is timeless remember.

As the illegal Zionist settlers, who are still stealing Palestinian land on the West Bank, are basing their case on the OT, then Christians can also justify anti-Semiticism on the NT, that is, where it says "Let his (Jesus') blood be upon us and upon our children". Again you can't have it both way

I reakon you are getting a thrashing here, no wonder Igor and Mike Baron have deserted ship. You are being the last rat to leave - nothing personal, I admire you actually.

Igor_Goldenberg
13-11-2010, 09:41 AM
I reakon you are getting a thrashing here, no wonder Igor and Mike Baron have deserted ship. You are being the last rat to leave - nothing personal, I admire you actually.
Most of your and RW drivel is left unanswered because I can't be bothered with your stupid illogical rambling. Neither feeding the troll.
You might be surprised, but your friend RW is the only one who takes you seriously.

antichrist
13-11-2010, 11:01 PM
Most of your and RW drivel is left unanswered because I can't be bothered with your stupid illogical rambling. Neither feeding the troll.
You might be surprised, but your friend RW is the only one who takes you seriously.

There have only been 150 resolutions passed by the UN that supports the Palestinian cause but get vetoed by the USA - that is one of the main reasons why the USA cops it from terrorists.

Capablanca-Fan
14-11-2010, 01:26 AM
The documentation of Hajj Amin Al-Husseini's alliance with the Nazis is irrefutable. AC thinks that I provide the videos for his edification alone. Rather, it's in case anyone else was tempted to take his antisemitic drivel seriously.


Even if that was the case concerning Arafat's relos that does not diminish the Palestinian case in Palestine. They claim to be decendants of Philistines going back 3,000 years ago and still have it in the for Ancient Hewbrews/Jews for what they done back then — stealing their land back then.
What crap. They are Arabs. You know, from Arabia originally? After independence from the Ottoman Empire, they wanted to be part of Syria. A Palestinian Arab State was not an issue back then.


As the illegal Zionist settlers, who are still stealing Palestinian land on the West Bank, are basing their case on the OT, then Christians can also justify anti-Semiticism on the NT, that is, where it says "Let his (Jesus') blood be upon us and upon our children". Again you can't have it both way
No, that was an uninspired comment from the crowd, merely reported in Scripture. Not everything recorded in Scripture is endorsed by Scripture. We go by the actual commandments. E.g. Jesus said, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do."

antichrist
15-11-2010, 12:00 AM
The following scriptures show how the true Owner of this and all land everywhere expressed this “land transfer”: “And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which He swore to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that He swore unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass” (Josh. 21:43-45).

Joshua 24:13 covers more details: “And I [the Lord] have given you a land for which you did not labor, and cities which you built not, and you dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which you planted not do you eat.”


And as I was saying "bloody robbers" nothing more and nothing less it is from our own Holy Book.

(BTW I must use quotes coz I can't force myself to read the stupid Bible)

antichrist
15-11-2010, 12:18 AM
The Peoples of the Mid-East
While they were still in Egypt, God revealed to Israel how they would obtain the land of Canaan—the Promised Land: “And I am come down to deliver them [Israelites] out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large [land], unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites” (Ex. 3:8).

These peoples, as far as lineages can be traced, were descendants of Ham. Collectively, they were called Canaanites, and the land was often referred to as Canaan (Gen. 10:15-20).

Palestinians today insist that they inhabited the land of Canaan before God gave it to Israel. But they are either seriously misinformed or willfully ignorant. The Canaanites described above were definitely not of Arab descent. The Arabic peoples are descendants of Ishmael, who descended from Shem. The peoples of Tunisia, Malta, Algeria and Sicily of today are of similar descent as these Canaanites.

The peoples who now call themselves Palestinians correctly acknowledge the common ancestry of Abraham, just as the Jews and Arabs claim.

Let’s review some of this tribal lineage to better understand the origin of the Jews and Arabs.

Abraham had two sons: Isaac (by his wife, Sarah) and Ishmael (by Hagar, her handmaid). Though Abraham passed the birthright to Isaac, Ishmael was also blessed, becoming the progenitor of the Arabs. Twelve princes, sons of Ishmael (Gen. 25:16), went on to form major Arab nations—not insignificant nomadic tribes. These peoples intermarried primarily with the Egyptians and were located south of Canaan, known as Arabia.

Isaac had two sons: Jacob and Esau. Abraham and Isaac’s God-given birthright was passed on to Jacob. Esau, like his uncle Ishmael, was also blessed with wealth and offspring. He moved away from Canaan to a region called Mount Seir, just south of the land of Moab (southeast of the Dead Sea). Esau was also called Edom, and his offspring were known as Edomites. Many rulers, nobles and kings were borne of Esau (Gen. 36). Esau married Mahalath, the daughter of Ishmael (Gen. 28:9). He also had a number of wives from various other nations. His offspring continued to marry into the families of Ishmael, as well as other peoples.

Meanwhile, Jacob, whose name God changed to Israel, had twelve sons—Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulon, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph and Benjamin—the twelve tribes of Israel. While in Egypt for nearly two and a half centuries, the tribes of Israel grew vastly in numbers. The birthright was passed from Jacob (or Israel) to Joseph’s sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. Israel effectively became thirteen tribes. The birthright remained with Ephraim and Manasseh, and began to be fulfilled in about A.D. 1800.

Israel and Judah
After the time of King Solomon, Israel split into two nations: Judah and Israel (to the north of Judah). Judah consisted of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, as well as the majority of Levi. These peoples became known as Jews. In fact, the Bible’s first use of the word “Jews” is in II Kings 16:6, when the Jews (allied with Syria) were at war with Israel.

The northern ten tribes of Israel were taken captive by the Assyrians in 721-718 B.C. and became known as the “lost ten tribes of Israel.” The Jews remained in the land of Judah (later Judea). The Assyrians placed other peoples in the land formerly inhabited by the ten tribes. Transplanted from a region near Babylon, these new inhabitants were called Samaritans.

In about 600 B.C., the Jews were taken captive by the Babylonians. A remnant of them returned approximately 70 years later. The vast majority of the Jews remained dispersed among other nations after the captivity. The Jews who returned faced continual opposition by certain peoples, such as the Samaritans and the peoples of Ammon and Moab. The Ammonites and Moabites—sons of Lot, Abraham’s nephew—were distant relatives of the Jews. The Jews’ most bitter rivals were none other than the Edomites—sons of Esau.

Later, as Alexander the Great’s Empire dominated the region, such local rivalries were suppressed. The series of ongoing wars between the Seleucid and Ptolemy Empires—fragments of Alexander’s former Empire—dominated the second century B.C.

Next came the Roman era and their provocation of the Jewish religious leaders, as mentioned earlier.

The Masses of Palestine
Major population shifts occurred in the area before the Jews’ arrival between 1917 and 1948: “The spread of Islam introduced a very considerable Neo-Arabian infusion. Those from southern Arabia were known as the Yaman tribe, those from northern Arabia the Kais (Qais). These two divisions absorbed the previous peasant population, and still nominally exist [as of 1910]; down to the middle of the 19th century they were a fruitful source of quarrels and of bloodshed.” (Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed., Vol. 20, p. 604). Note that these people were inclined toward quarreling and infighting.

The “infusion” of Arabians coincided with the expansion of Islam. Their presence in the Holy Land began about the seventh century A.D. These waves of migration continued as the Turks pushed north, and west, spreading Islam by the edge of the sword. By the tenth century A.D., the Turks had conquered the former land of Judea, as well as Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. By the eleventh century, they controlled the bulk of Asia Minor. The Arabians—descendants of Ishmael as well as Esau—claimed the land from that time until the present
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

AC
Now folk, I am not even vouching for the veracity of this site, but it neither left wing or anti-Semitic - it is pro-Semetic and anti-Palestinian. But what it is saying that the Arabs are - for want of a better name - also Jews or Arabahamites (whatever we like to call them). They are definitely Semites (decendants of Shem).

My grandmother's given name is Miriam by the way - so we are related by blood and culture. (before you mob got diverted to Europe that was - so some may be ring ins without any lineage at all just after land)

Disclaimer: this scenario is only a Christian/Judaic version of history that I do not necessarily subscribe to at all coz I don't consider Holy Books works of history but only of fable.

antichrist
15-11-2010, 12:41 AM
The Palestinian people, (Arabic: الشعب الفلسطيني‎, ash-sha`b al-filasTīni) also referred to as Palestinians or Palestinian Arabs (Arabic: الفلسطينيون‎, al-filasTīnīyyūn; Arabic: العرب الفلسطينيون‎, al-`Arab al-filasTīnīyyūn), are an Arabic-speaking Mediterranean people with family origins in Palestine. Genetic analysis shows they are of mainly Levantine ancestry, similar to Jews, Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians, and Iranians.[13]

In the areas of Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, as of 2004, Palestinian Arabs constitute 49% of all inhabitants,[14] some of whom are internally displaced. The remainder, comprise what is known as the Palestinian diaspora, of whom more than half are stateless refugees, lacking citizenship in any country.[15] ...........

By religious affiliation, most Palestinians are Muslim, particularly of the Sunni branch of Islam, and there is a significant Palestinian Christian minority of various Christian denominations in the Palestinian territories. However, the majority of Palestinian Christians are found outside of Palestine. As the commonly applied "Palestinian Arab" ethnonym implies, the current traditional vernacular of Palestinians, irrespective of religion, is the Palestinian dialect of Arabic. For those who are Arab citizens of Israel, many are now also bilingual in Modern Hebrew.

Recent genetic evidence has demonstrated that Palestinians as an ethnic group are closely related to Jews and represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times,"[17][18] largely predating the Arabian Muslim conquest that resulted in their acculturation, established Arabic as the predominant vernacular, and over time also Islamized many of them from various prior faiths........................

--------------------------------------------------

AC
So again it can be seen that Palestinian ancestors have always been there, not just in what Jono terms Arabia. They may or may not have been called Palestinian but that has no significance. Just as Jews have not always been called Jews.

So Jono, Igor and Mike, we are blood and culturally related. That is if you have not been "contaminated" in Europe.

antichrist
15-11-2010, 01:09 AM
Struggle for self-determination
Palestinians have never exercised full sovereignty over the land in which they have lived. Palestine was administered by the Ottoman Empire until World War I, and then by the British Mandatory authorities. Israel was established in parts of Palestine in 1948, and in the wake of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, the West Bank and East Jerusalem were occupied by Jordan, and the Gaza Strip by Egypt, with both countries continuing to administer these areas until Israel occupied them during the 1967 war. Avi Shlaim explains that the argument that "you never had sovereignty over this land, and therefore you have no rights," has been used by Israelis to deny Palestinian rights and attachment to the land.[53]

Only "peoples" are entitled to self-determination in contemporary international law.[54] The International Court of Justice said that Israel had recognized the existence of a "Palestinian people" and referred a number of times to the Palestinian people and its "legitimate rights" in international agreements. The Court said those rights include the right to self-determination.[55] Judge Koroma explained "The Court has also held that the right of self-determination as an established and recognized right under international law applies to the territory and to the Palestinian people. Accordingly, the exercise of such right entitles the Palestinian people to a State of their own as originally envisaged in resolution 181 (II) and subsequently confirmed." Judge Higgins also said "that the Palestinian people are entitled to their territory, to exercise self-determination, and to have their own State."[56]

Paul De Waart said that the Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice in 2004 "ascertained the present responsibility of the United Nations to protect Palestine’s statehood. It affirmed the applicability of the prohibition of acquisition of Palestinian territory by Israel and confirmed the illegality of the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.

Moreover, the existence of the Palestinian people as the rightful claimant to the Occupied Palestinian Territory is no longer open to question.[57]In October 2007 the Japanese Justice Ministry decided to accept the Palestinian nationality. The decision followed a recommendation by a ruling party panel on nationality that Palestinians should no longer be treated as stateless.[58]

Today, the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination is generally recognized, having been affirmed by the Security Council, the General Assembly, the International Court of Justice and by Israel itself.[59] About 100 nations recognize Palestine as a state,[60] with Costa Rica being the most recent country to do so, in February 2008.[61] However, Palestinian sovereignty over the areas claimed as part of the Palestinian state remains limited, and the boundaries of the state remain a point of contestation between Palestinians and Israelis
.................................................. ..............

AC
So under international law Israel is completely illegally occupying the West Bank where it has built tens of thousands of homes, put up road blocks, checkpoints, destroyed vineyards etc.

There have been hundred of UN resolutions condemning Israeli actions but all action vetod by the United States - that is why the hatred of the United States by the Arabic countries. That is why the terrorist bombings.

And as well Australia also votes with Israel on many Israeli/Palestinian issues in the UN, so it is extremely relevant that we have this debate in Austalia, because we are part of contravention of international law.

antichrist
15-11-2010, 01:29 AM
Much of the local Palestinian population in Nablus is believed to be descended from Samaritans who converted to Islam.[90] Even today, certain Nabulsi surnames including Muslimani, Yaish, and Shakshir among others, are associated with a Samaritan origin.[90]

[edit] Politicized Lineages

Salim Tamari notes the paradoxes produced by the search for "nativist" roots among Zionist figures and the so-called Canaanite (anti-Zionist) followers of Yonatan Ratosh.[91] For example, Ber Borochov, one of the key ideological architects of Socialist Zionism, claimed as early as 1905 that, "The Fellahin in Eretz-Israel are the descendants of remnants of the Hebrew agricultural community,"[92] believing them to be descendants of the ancient Hebrew and Canaanite residents 'together with a small admixture of Arab blood'".[91] He further believed that the Palestinian peasantry would embrace Zionism and that the lack of a crystallized national consciousness among Palestinian Arabs would result in their likely assimilation into the new Hebrew nationalism.[91] Other founding fathers of Zionism believed that the Palestinian people were descended from the biblical ancient Hebrews. David Ben-Gurion and Yitzhak Ben Zvi, later becoming Israel's first Prime Minister and second President, respectively, tried to establish in a 1918 paper written in Yiddish that Palestinian peasants and their mode of life were living historical testimonies to Israelite practices in the biblical period.[91][93] Tamari notes that "the ideological implications of this claim became very problematic and were soon withdrawn from circulation."[91]



Ahad Ha'am believed that, "the Moslems [of Palestine] are the ancient residents of the land ... who became Christians on the rise of Christianity and became Moslems on the arrival of Islam."[91] Israel Belkind, the founder of the Bilu movement also asserted that the Palestinian Arabs were the blood brothers of the Jews.[94] In his book on the Palestinians, "The Arabs in Eretz-Israel", Belkind advanced the idea that the complete dispersion of Jews out of the Land of Israel after the destruction of the Second Temple by the Roman emperor Titus is a "historic error" that must be corrected. While it dispersed much of the land's Jewish community around the world, those "workers of the land that remained attached to their land," stayed behind and were eventually converted to Christianity and then Islam.[94] He therefore, proposed that this historical wrong be corrected, by embracing the Palestinians as their own and proposed the opening of Hebrew schools for Palestinian Arab Muslims to teach them Arabic, Hebrew and universal culture.[94] More recently, Tsvi Misinai, an Israeli researcher, entrepreneur and proponent of a controversial alternative solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, asserts that nearly 90% of all Palestinians living within Israel and the occupied territories (including the Israeli Arabs and Negev Bedouin)[95] are descended from the Jewish Israelite peasantry that remained on the land, after the others, mostly city dwellers, were exiled or left.[96]


More recently, Tsvi Misinai, an Israeli researcher, entrepreneur and proponent of a controversial alternative solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, asserts that nearly 90% of all Palestinians living within Israel and the occupied territories (including the Israeli Arabs and Negev Bedouin)[95] are descended from the Jewish Israelite peasantry that remained on the land, after the others, mostly city dwellers, were exiled or left.[96]

AC
So it appears Mike that the Palestinians have every right to be right throughout Israel as they have always been there and are in fact genuine Jews. They should not have been expelled from Israel at all and have every moral right as well as legal right (that is recognised by UN) to return.

Capablanca-Fan
18-11-2010, 03:01 AM
63hTOaRu7h4&feature=player_embedded
The only reason for the problems in the Middle East: the Islamofascists want the Jewish State obliterated.

antichrist
18-11-2010, 07:07 PM
Jono, it is very easy to pick holes in that video, for one example re Hamas, Israel sponsered Hamas in it's early days as a counter to the PLO - so Israel supplied the rope for it's own hanging, just as Marx stated that the capitalists wood.

Israel is supposed to believe in democracy, but that is only for Israelis. When the Palestinians wanted democracy and elected Hamas, Israel locked up about half of Hamas members of government. A strange way of showing support of democracy. Hamas was elected due to corruption and nepotism of PLO. There are good and corrupt people in PLO, as any politicial analysis will tell you that any authority in power for decades will become like that. Normally a revolutionary force wins in a decade or two, due to support of US for Israel this battle has gone on for 60 years. For 6 decades no normality - so all psychology gets effected.

The Palestinians are your cousins, if you are not contaminated by European blood, they are apostate Jews, or maybe were forced to change religions, to Christianity or Islam, like the Jews were forced to in Spain 500 years ago (the Convertos).

I am not in mood tonight to answer all points in your video.

antichrist
19-11-2010, 05:46 AM
From up above post

The following scriptures show how the true Owner of this and all land everywhere expressed this “land transfer”: “And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which He swore to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that He swore unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass” (Josh. 21:43-45).

Joshua 24:13 covers more details: “And I [the Lord] have given you a land for which you did not labor, and cities which you built not, and you dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which you planted not do you eat.”


AC
And as I was saying "bloody robbers" nothing more and nothing less it is from our own Holy Book.
__________________________________________________ _________

So Jono and Mike
When are you going to reply that the Israelis are not just robbers as proven above by their own scriptures.

Igor_Goldenberg
19-11-2010, 08:30 AM
I am not in mood tonight to answer all points in your video.
You are never in the mood to address real issues. That's why you are ignored.

Capablanca-Fan
19-11-2010, 02:03 PM
Diminished Capacity (http://patriotpost.us/opinion/cal-thomas/2010/11/18/diminished-capacity/)
by Cal Thomas
18 November 2010

...

“Before again forcing Israel into concessions, several fundamental questions should be posed to the Palestinians: (1) If your goal is to live in peace with Israel, why does Israel not appear on your maps? (2) In your school textbooks and on TV, why do you continue to denigrate Jews and compare them to pigs and monkeys? (3) Why are young children portrayed in videos as future "martyrs," dressed in suicide garb, guns in hand, with mock bombs strapped to their chests? (4) What agreements have you made with Israel in the past that you have kept (answer: none) and why should any future concessions by Israel be sufficient to cause you to make peace with the Jewish state, which you won't even acknowledge as a Jewish state?”

...

antichrist
19-11-2010, 08:37 PM
You are never in the mood to address real issues. That's why you are ignored.

I have addressed many many in few posts above, that you have not replied to, coz maybe the Palestinians are more Jewish than Europe Jews who have been genetically contaminated as Jews. As Jews the Palestinians have the right to be right throughout Israel - if Europe contaminated Jews have that right so then do pure blood Jewish Palestinians.

antichrist
19-11-2010, 08:40 PM
Diminished Capacity (http://patriotpost.us/opinion/cal-thomas/2010/11/18/diminished-capacity/)
by Cal Thomas
18 November 2010

...

“Before again forcing Israel into concessions, several fundamental questions should be posed to the Palestinians: (1) If your goal is to live in peace with Israel, why does Israel not appear on your maps? (2) In your school textbooks and on TV, why do you continue to denigrate Jews and compare them to pigs and monkeys? (3) Why are young children portrayed in videos as future "martyrs," dressed in suicide garb, guns in hand, with mock bombs strapped to their chests? (4) What agreements have you made with Israel in the past that you have kept (answer: none) and why should any future concessions by Israel be sufficient to cause you to make peace with the Jewish state, which you won't even acknowledge as a Jewish state?”

...

Jono, have not attempted to answer fine print as not in mood tonight, Friday remember, but will later.

But it was ancient Hebrews who started all nasty stuff - just read the Torah, kill anyone who is not of same faith etc etc the Palestinians have just learnt the Jewish lesson, as the Jews learnt from Hitler.

antichrist
19-11-2010, 09:09 PM
Most of your and RW drivel is left unanswered because I can't be bothered with your stupid illogical rambling. Neither feeding the troll.
You might be surprised, but your friend RW is the only one who takes you seriously.

You may be surprised to find that the USA is the only one that supports Israel, and that is because of the Jewish Lobby over there. Some Americans are already complaining why are they always fighting Israel's wars.

Ian Murray
20-11-2010, 08:26 AM
You may be surprised to find that the USA is the only one that supports Israel, and that is because of the Jewish Lobby over there.
Not quite. Australia is one of her immutable staunch supporters, as is Canada. Recent UN General Assembly supporting nations: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/voteisrael09.html

One of our pub trivia questions last Thursday was:
Q. True or False - There are more Jews in New York than in Tel Aviv.
A. True

antichrist
22-11-2010, 01:18 AM
News
USA
Africa
Americas
Asia
Europe
Middle East
Tensions are escalating between Israel and Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip.

Israel has filed a protest with the United Nations after Palestinian militants in Gaza fired rockets and mortar shells across the Israeli border. In a letter to U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, Israel said that some of the mortar shells contained white phosphorous, which causes severe burns.

The use of phosphorous against civilians is banned under international law. Israel admitted to using white phosphorous during the Gaza War two years ago, and the U.N. and human rights groups said that amounted to a war crime.

Israel responded to the latest attacks with three air strikes on Gaza. The escalation has raised concern among Israeli communities on the Gaza border, which have been mostly quiet since the Gaza War.

But Zvika Greengold, the mayor of the southern Israeli town of Ofakim, said times are changing. He told reporters that the recent quiet is deceiving and that Israelis on the border are "sitting on a tinderbox."
................................


AC
of course Igor will continue to claim that Israel commits no war crimes and accuses me of talking nonsense - such arrogance, no wonder some people get such a bad reputation.

antichrist
22-11-2010, 01:29 AM
We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." David Ben-Gurion - From 'Ben-Gurion, a Biography' by Michael Ben-Zohar (May 1948)

"All of the Palestinians must be killed; men, women, infants, and even their beasts." - Rabbi Yisrael Rosen - director of the Tsomet Institute - 25th March 2008


You Israeli you should never become lenient if you would kill your enemies. You shall have no pity on them until you shall have destroyed all their so-called Arab culture, on the ruins of which we shall build our own civilization." (Menachin Begin, October 28, 1956, at a Conference in Tel Aviv)

"Zionism didn't come out to be for peace. Zionism came out to be for the Jewish state." - Meir Kahane

Kevin Bonham
22-11-2010, 07:53 AM
Moderation Notice

Thread temporarily closed as a poster (in a now deleted post) used a very poorly substantiated genetic claim to implicitly slur another poster in a way that is probably outside forum rules and at least suggested that (one poster's) discussion of this issue is again getting too heated.