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View Full Version : Sydney Grade Matches: a couple of questions



Javier Gil
04-08-2004, 09:27 PM
Perhaps I'm wrong, but is it just me or does anybody else have the feeling that Sydney Grade Matches 2004 didn't get much internet coverage? I'm not even sure if there was any mention of it here. (anybody got a link to a page with some information on it?)
I thought this was supposed to be one of the most important (if not the most) team events held in Sydney.
Something else, isn't this tournament strong enough to be FIDE Rated? why isn't it?

Bill Gletsos
04-08-2004, 09:36 PM
There is a link to the results from the NSWCA web page.
The results page was updated at least weekly.
Its at http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/scarratt/allgrade.htm

Javier Gil
04-08-2004, 09:57 PM
Thank you, Bill.

Bill Gletsos
04-08-2004, 11:45 PM
Over the past few years instead of having an individual handle the Grade Match's like it was done in the past the various functions are now shared amongst various council members.
Peter Cassettari and I handle changes to the Grade Match rules. We put recommendations to the Council for them to vote on.

Steve Carratt the NSW Ratings Officer handles the draw and the collecting of the results and posting on the web. Results are often emailed in.

Charles Zworestine assists with the layout and organisation of printing the Grade Match booklets.

Peter Cassettari acts as the Grade Match Arbiter.

The NSW Appeals Committee consisting of Richard Gastineau-Hills, Kerry Stead and I handle any Appeals of the Grade Match Arbiters decision.

Brian_Jones
05-08-2004, 10:27 AM
Javier, Sydney grade matches are indeed strong enough to be FIDE-rated but there is a problem over time limits and many of the strong players are not currently playing in the Grades. To get FIDE-rating we need to play say 90 minutes plus 30secs/move. This requires sessions of at least 4 hours. As Sydney grade matches are held in the evenings (7.30-11pm), this is difficult to achieve. Some venues have early finishes and I for one prefer shorter sessions in the evening due to travel time problems and getting home late at night.

Maybe the best thing to do is to change the competition to weekends? What happens in Zaragoza mate?

arosar
05-08-2004, 11:05 AM
I support you on this one BJ. I knew you'd have something to say about this. I mean, you've been on about this for yonks - but does anyone listen? Nnnoooooo.....

AR

Recherché
05-08-2004, 11:20 AM
Weekends are not automatically more convenient for people. I'm sure for many they would be an inferior choice to the weeknight schedules which seem to be favoured at the moment, especially for an event running over multiple weeks.

Bill Gletsos
05-08-2004, 01:44 PM
Weekends are not automatically more convenient for people. I'm sure for many they would be an inferior choice to the weeknight schedules which seem to be favoured at the moment, especially for an event running over multiple weeks.
The majority of players dont support the grade matches being played on the weekend.
Of the 51 members who responded to the particular question in the Opinion Survey regarding weekend Grade matches only 13 were in favour. The other 38 were against.

On a related issue, of the 46 who responded to the question regarding 3 hr or 4 hr playing sessions for the Grade matches 25 wanted 4 hrs and 21 wanted 3hrs.

Bill Gletsos
05-08-2004, 08:11 PM
Something else, isn't this tournament strong enough to be FIDE Rated? why isn't it?
The Grade match es are played over 4 hrs genrally from 7.30pm-11.30 pm.
Somre clubs have an earlier finishing time of 11pm. These therefore have earlier start times of 7pm.

Therefore for them to be FIDE rated you would need a time limit of 2hrs per player for the whole game. Given I cannot recall seeing this time limit used in Australia I suspect the players would not like it.

Rincewind
05-08-2004, 08:16 PM
The Grade match es are played over 4 hrs genrally from 7.30pm-11.30 pm.
Somre clubs have an earlier finishing time of 11pm. These therefore have earlier start times of 7pm.

Therefore for them to be FIDE rated you would need a time limit of 2hrs per player for the whole game. Given I cannot recall seeing this time limit used in Australia I suspect the players would not like it.

Aren't the grade matches currently played at 40 in 90 all in 30? If so, All in 120 is not that much of a culture shock. I certainly wouldn't be fussed either way.

Bill Gletsos
05-08-2004, 08:19 PM
Aren't the grade matches currently played at 40 in 90 all in 30?
Correct.


If so, All in 120 is not that much of a culture shock. I certainly wouldn't be fussed either way.
Since we would only consider FIDE rating the Open Division, we would only change the time control for that Division.

Rincewind
05-08-2004, 08:34 PM
Since we would only consider FIDE rating the Open Division, we would only change the time control for that Division.

As FIDE push their minimum rating down further and further I imagine the requirement might also come to do a similiar thing for the U2000. and later in the U1800, and so on.

As I said, I don't think it is that big a deal that too many people will worry about. The difference between the current time control and all-in-120 is minor.

Javier Gil
06-08-2004, 06:04 PM
Most team events are held over the weekend in Spain, but I think this happens so for cultural reasons. (many people work till 8 p.m).
We usually play on Saturdays at 4 p.m. (lower divisions play on Sunday mornings, but this is probably due to venue limitations).
Time controls have changed over the years... 6 hour sessions used to be the standard time controls, but now, in the highest division, they are:

2 hours for each player for the whole game, with a 30 seconds time increment for every single move.

Our federation implemented a change a few years ago which we thought would not be very popular at all: apart from communicating the results, all team delegates now have to send a file (pgn or chessbase) with all the games played by his team members. If we don't, there's a penalty of 10$, which increases by 1 extra dollar for every day that passes without having sent the file.
Most people found this decission quite outrageous, but surprisingly, over the last couple of years people are no longer talking about it now, and actually found this decission quite useful: players can download the games from the federation site soon after the games are played. This year the federation collected less than 20$ on penalties.
From a "chess history" perspective, I think it is vital that games be recorded like this. It also helps people to prepare their games a little better.

Brian_Jones
07-08-2004, 01:33 PM
I've said this before but I'll say it again. Why not leave the bulk of the NSWCA Sydney Grades as is, but move the Open to weekends.

Tell me Bill,
1. Have you published all of the data from the survey you quote from
2. What would be the stats based on say players rated 1800 and over only?
3. What is your estimate of additional players/teams arising from a new weekend competition (10 rounds, open teams only)

I feel sure there could be 10 teams or more (one per club) in an open NSWCA Superleague event, possible including Newcastle, Central Coast, Wollongong and others. This is better than 5 or 6 at present. Also, teams could be increased in size from 4 to perhaps 6, 7 or more per team. Possible female board and junior boards?

Brian Jones (Koala Chess Club)

Bill Gletsos
07-08-2004, 05:19 PM
I've said this before but I'll say it again. Why not leave the bulk of the NSWCA Sydney Grades as is, but move the Open to weekends.

Tell me Bill,
1. Have you published all of the data from the survey you quote from
No.


2. What would be the stats based on say players rated 1800 and over only?
I only have the totals for each question and not the actual forms.
I therefore dont know the answer.


3. What is your estimate of additional players/teams arising from a new weekend competition (10 rounds, open teams only)
It is my understanding this idea of having the Open teams play on the weekend was canvassed a few years back and was not a goer.
Most players did not want to play on the weekend.

On the question of the length of the City of Sydney/State Championship, 22 wanted it one round per week, 18 wanted it 2 rounds per week, 4 wanted it played over 3 successive weekends and 7 wanted the "Jones" option of 5 consecutive days including 3 working days.

Therefore where do you get the 9 weeks needed.


I feel sure there could be 10 teams or more (one per club) in an open NSWCA Superleague event, possible including Newcastle, Central Coast, Wollongong and others. This is better than 5 or 6 at present. Also, teams could be increased in size from 4 to perhaps 6, 7 or more per team. Possible female board and junior boards?
I seriously doubt those clubs you mentioned could field an Open team that would be in any way competitive with the current 5-6 teams that play at present.
With the exception of the Canterbury teams virtually all the other players were over 2100.

Brian_Jones
08-08-2004, 10:03 AM
Well Hakoah and Koala should be OK. For the other clubs, you don't have to have strong players to compete in an inter-clubs competiton. Not everyone can win. I think some of the clubs could combine (Central Coast, Newcastle, NSW Country) to form competitve teams. They could then strengthen themselves by introducing promising juniors and guest players. Think positive - think big! This is the type of compitition that could attract sponsorship!

Bill Gletsos
08-08-2004, 10:25 AM
Well Hakoah and Koala should be OK. For the other clubs, you don't have to have strong players to compete in an inter-clubs competiton. Not everyone can win. I think some of the clubs could combine (Central Coast, Newcastle, NSW Country) to form competitve teams. They could then strengthen themselves by introducing promising juniors and guest players. Think positive - think big! This is the type of compitition that could attract sponsorship!
As for not having strong players.
Your suggestion was to run the Open Grade on weekends.
The Open grade is effectively over 2000. Those that are not competitive would play in the other divisions of the grade matches as they currently do during the week.

I note you failed to totally address the issues I mentioned regarding the players not wishing to play on weekends and the lack of available weekends.

Brian_Jones
08-08-2004, 12:54 PM
I accept that there are some players not wishing to play on weekends. But there are other players that do wish to play on weekends. So we should cater for both (and circumstances do change).

I do not accept that there is a lack of available weekends. If there is a will there is a way. Maybe drop off some of the existing poorly atended events?

I do not accept that "the Open grade is effectively over 2000". This is a figment of your imagination based on how you see the current evening grade matches. Just think about strong juniors playing in club teams events. Why should they have to play in B grade? They should be playing in the main event! We seem to be stuck in a rut of 4 player, adult teams. What about the future? What about the integration of junior chess?

Bill Gletsos
08-08-2004, 02:15 PM
I accept that there are some players not wishing to play on weekends. But there are other players that do wish to play on weekends. So we should cater for both (and circumstances do change).
There is no evidence that the circumstances have changed.


I do not accept that there is a lack of available weekends. If there is a will there is a way. Maybe drop off some of the existing poorly atended events?
The NSWCA Council is unlikely to be dropping any of its weekend events anytime soon.
Certainly not the June and October long weekends.

Even so there are not that many weekend events run by the NSWCA that could be discontinued even if we thought doing so was a good idea.


I do not accept that "the Open grade is effectively over 2000". This is a figment of your imagination based on how you see the current evening grade matches. Just think about strong juniors playing in club teams events. Why should they have to play in B grade? They should be playing in the main event! We seem to be stuck in a rut of 4 player, adult teams. What about the future? What about the integration of junior chess?
In fact the Interleagues tournament(a non NSWCA event) of the 70's ran exactly under this format, except it was played on weeknights.

However there is no point in having events where teams completely outclass other teams.

Of course one of the main reasons it died out under that format.

It was replaced by the current swiss event on weeknights over 7 weeks.

PHAT
08-08-2004, 02:27 PM
On the NSWCA web site, the Grade matches are said to have awards going to those players who score 70% or above and have played 70% or above of the rounds in their division.

Is there, were there ever, board prizes 1, 2, 3, and 4?

Brian_Jones
08-08-2004, 03:12 PM
Peoples individual circumstances do change (eg jobs and time availability).
Do you really need evidence of that?

Bill states "It was replaced by the current swiss event on weeknights over 7 weeks". There are a least two facts wrong with this sentence? The grades are not really a swiss event. The grades can go 10 or 11 weeks!

Sounds like you want to be argumentative so I will sign off on this subject.

Bill Gletsos
08-08-2004, 03:23 PM
Peoples individual circumstances do change (eg jobs and time availability).
Do you really need evidence of that?
The last time this was looked at was in the last few years. I'm not talking decades ago.


Bill states "It was replaced by the current swiss event on weeknights over 7 weeks". There are a least two facts wrong with this sentence? The grades are not really a swiss event. The grades can go 10 or 11 weeks!
I was pointing out that the original round robin format of the Interleagues was replaced.
I was also pointing out it was the imbalanced teams that lead to its demise in the round robin many rounds format.


Sounds like you want to be argumentative so I will sign off on this subject.
No Brian. If I was you would definately know. ;)
I'm just stating the issues as I see them.

Bill Gletsos
08-08-2004, 03:25 PM
On the NSWCA web site, the Grade matches are said to have awards going to those players who score 70% or above and have played 70% or above of the rounds in their division.

Is there, were there ever, board prizes 1, 2, 3, and 4?
Matt,

I believe there were in the past.

I dont recall when it changed.

Peter C would probably know.

arosar
08-08-2004, 05:04 PM
And there goes another great idea.

AR

Bill Gletsos
08-08-2004, 05:27 PM
And there goes another great idea.

AR
Actually you will probably see more focus on the NSW Teams event next year.

Duff McKagan
09-08-2004, 02:43 PM
Peoples individual circumstances do change (eg jobs and time availability).
Do you really need evidence of that?

Bill states "It was replaced by the current swiss event on weeknights over 7 weeks". There are a least two facts wrong with this sentence? The grades are not really a swiss event. The grades can go 10 or 11 weeks!

Sounds like you want to be argumentative so I will sign off on this subject.

Can we at least give Brian's idea a trial run? Open grade matches of 4 boards played for a number of weeks on say a Saturday night in a round robin format? The players who purely want to play chess and are not too concerned with material things like prizemoney and giving up some Saturday nights would enter. The host club could make grade matches a far more friendly environment by providing drinks and snacks. Maybe teams could be charged a small fee to enter. The possibilities are certainly available. I'm sick of the 'scabby chessbum' image that is portrayed in NSW events these days. A lot of people show up only if they think they can win prizemoney. Tournament entry fees increase to counter the lack of numbers, which is counter-productive. Events like the Adelaide University Open have got the mixture right... sponsorship, food, entertainment (dvds/table tennis/cards) are combined with the chess and this result in a far more pleasant atmosphere and public awareness of the game. Success breeds success. NSW grade match organisers should take a leaf out of their book.
P.S. I think a Newcastle team would be reasonably competitive in open grade matches.

Duff McKagan
09-08-2004, 02:48 PM
On the NSWCA web site, the Grade matches are said to have awards going to those players who score 70% or above and have played 70% or above of the rounds in their division.

Is there, were there ever, board prizes 1, 2, 3, and 4?

Incentives should definitely be looked at. The NSWCA could be still breaking even at the end of the financial year, but with a much higher turnover. More sponsorship can be used to pay out prizemoney. What is the NSWCA and why was it set up?

PHAT
09-08-2004, 03:39 PM
What is the NSWCA and why was it set up?

It is our state body. It has saved $80k and must not do anything with it.

Duff McKagan
09-08-2004, 03:44 PM
It is our state body. It has saved $80k and must not do anything with it.

That's nice but not an answer to the questions. How about... what is a chess association? It's certainly not a bank.

Alan Shore
09-08-2004, 03:48 PM
That's nice but not an answer to the questions. How about... what is a chess association? It's certainly not a bank.

I raised this question some time ago but never got a definitive answer.. I pay $10/year to join my state chess association and it does sweet FA for me apart from give me three very dodgy 4-page newsletters a year of which half is advertising and a quarter a list of ratings. State Chess associations are supposed to be further promoting chess, financing tournaments, junior development and more yet I've seen insufficient evidence of it myself. Perhaps someone could shed some more light?

Duff McKagan
09-08-2004, 03:56 PM
I raised this question some time ago but never got a definitive answer.. I pay $10/year to join my state chess association and it does sweet FA for me apart from give me three very dodgy 4-page newsletters a year of which half is advertising and a quarter a list of ratings. State Chess associations are supposed to be further promoting chess, financing tournaments, junior development and more yet I've seen insufficient evidence of it myself. Perhaps someone could shed some more light?

Well, we are not forced to join up, but the point I was getting at was that conditions can certainly be improved at a tournament level, which would attract new members to the game and associations. BTW, $10 would cover printing, mailing and rating costs so it's not that bad an expense if that is what you want. Also CAQ events must be cheaper for members, right?

Alan Shore
09-08-2004, 04:09 PM
Well, we are not forced to join up, but the point I was getting at was that conditions can certainly be improved at a tournament level, which would attract new members to the game and associations. BTW, $10 would cover printing, mailing and rating costs so it's not that bad an expense if that is what you want. Also CAQ events must be cheaper for members, right?

No, it's compulsory to be a member of CAQ to play in any rated chess event instead of paying a higher membership fee with more discounts. And I think it'd be $4 at the very most to cover costs considering how many players pay their fee. There have been no new initiatives to promote chess in Brisbane in the last 5 years - Nik Stawski, Pat Byrom, Jacob Edwards and others got very little comparative support from CAQ so it's no wonder they gave up in pursuit of other things. Graeme Gardiner does a wonderful job in promoting chess on the Gold Coast and has a private business, Gardiner Chess that is now expanding into Brisbane with schools coaching and other things. The QJCL died about 6 years ago now - at one time it was quite strong with the works of David McKinnon, Connie Pizzato, Michael Corner and others - but again, CAQ simply didn't do enough. What is the story?

Commentator
09-08-2004, 05:55 PM
No, it's compulsory to be a member of CAQ to play in any rated chess event instead of paying a higher membership fee with more discounts. And I think it'd be $4 at the very most to cover costs considering how many players pay their fee. There have been no new initiatives to promote chess in Brisbane in the last 5 years - Nik Stawski, Pat Byrom, Jacob Edwards and others got very little comparative support from CAQ so it's no wonder they gave up in pursuit of other things. Graeme Gardiner does a wonderful job in promoting chess on the Gold Coast and has a private business, Gardiner Chess that is now expanding into Brisbane with schools coaching and other things. The QJCL died about 6 years ago now - at one time it was quite strong with the works of David McKinnon, Connie Pizzato, Michael Corner and others - but again, CAQ simply didn't do enough. What is the story?

Might be time to introduce a fee/for/service structure like the Victorians operate under. Then you know why the money is collected.
And with the weekly electronic newsletter there is no printing cost that needs to be charged for.

C

Garvinator
09-08-2004, 06:22 PM
No, it's compulsory to be a member of CAQ to play in any rated chess event instead of paying a higher membership fee with more discounts. And I think it'd be $4 at the very most to cover costs considering how many players pay their fee. There have been no new initiatives to promote chess in Brisbane in the last 5 years - Nik Stawski, Pat Byrom, Jacob Edwards and others got very little comparative support from CAQ so it's no wonder they gave up in pursuit of other things. Graeme Gardiner does a wonderful job in promoting chess on the Gold Coast and has a private business, Gardiner Chess that is now expanding into Brisbane with schools coaching and other things. The QJCL died about 6 years ago now - at one time it was quite strong with the works of David McKinnon, Connie Pizzato, Michael Corner and others - but again, CAQ simply didn't do enough. What is the story?
sorry to say bruce ;) but you really are complaining in the wrong circles here :wall:

Alan Shore
09-08-2004, 08:58 PM
sorry to say bruce ;) but you really are complaining in the wrong circles here :wall:

Well I'm trusting there'll be a change of policy at the end of the year, if you get my drift ;)

Garvinator
09-08-2004, 09:01 PM
Well I'm trusting there'll be a change of policy at the end of the year, if you get my drift ;)
i suspected actually that you will give a reply similiar to that :P