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Axiom
23-07-2009, 12:09 PM
If the H1N1 vaccine became mandatory , would you fight to avoid taking it ?

Rincewind
23-07-2009, 12:29 PM
If the H1N1 vaccine became mandatory , would you fight to avoid taking it ?

I would appear we have insufficient information on the vaccine at the moment to base a decision.

Is there any reason to suggest that the vaccine would be made mandatory? I'd be very surprised if it was.

Axiom
23-07-2009, 12:39 PM
I would appear we have insufficient information on the vaccine at the moment to base a decision. so you would vote 'don't know'


Is there any reason to suggest that the vaccine would be made mandatory? I'd be very surprised if it was. many reports from governmental bodies talking of mandatory vaccines .
simply google : "mandatory h1n1 vaccine"

Rincewind
23-07-2009, 01:30 PM
so you would vote 'don't know'

Why have a poll where the trials and recommendations are not yet complete.


many reports from governmental bodies talking of mandatory vaccines .
simply google : "mandatory h1n1 vaccine"

I did and the first page of results contained many links to silly government conspiracy sites.

Igor_Goldenberg
23-07-2009, 02:01 PM
The poll is either meaningless or misleading.
I would split it into at least two parts:
1. If government wants to impose mandatory vaccination, will you oppose it?
2. If, despite the opposition, government makes it mandatory, will you risk breaking the law to avoid taking it?

Garvinator
23-07-2009, 02:06 PM
I would be very surprised if the government made this vaccination mandatory, the very least being that some of the more well known diseases that we get vaccinated for are proven killers and still they are not mandatory.

Also, because it would give the government a political headache they do not need.

Kevin Bonham
23-07-2009, 04:10 PM
I voted "yes" but for a facetious reason - I am just getting over said illness at the moment and therefore it would be a pointless waste of time to immunise me.


many reports from governmental bodies talking of mandatory vaccines .
simply google : "mandatory h1n1 vaccine"

Most of those that came up in the first page are disreputable. I would be more interested to see a direct link to a recent (say, last month) governmental body source.

I tend to agree with Garvin's assessment.

arosar
23-07-2009, 04:33 PM
By coincidence, last night's episode of SVU was about a mother who was charged with murder because her refusal to vaccinate her son for measles led to the infection of another child who later died.

The show mentioned that there are generally two reasons for people to refuse a vaccine. It is either (i) on religious/cultural grounds or (ii) because of some fear of side-effects.

Isn't the subtext of all this the classic personal/individual freedom vs collective good? Anyway, it seems that there's a whole literature on this. See here (http://www.ete-online.com/content/3/1/13), for example.

AR

AzureBlue
23-07-2009, 04:37 PM
If the H1N1 vaccine became mandatory , would you fight to avoid taking it ?
What is H1N1?

Kevin Bonham
23-07-2009, 04:45 PM
What is H1N1?

A subtype of Influenza A. Swine flu is a form of H1N1. The "Spanish flu" that killed tens of millions of people (at least) in 1918-20 was another.

Desmond
23-07-2009, 05:07 PM
I'm afraid that I can't not bring myself to not vote in a poll that doesn't have a double negative in it.

AzureBlue
23-07-2009, 05:30 PM
A subtype of Influenza A. Swine flu is a form of H1N1. The "Spanish flu" that killed tens of millions of people (at least) in 1918-20 was another.
Wow how many flus have there been around... first the Spanish flu, then the mad cow disease, the bird flu, the swine flu, and common flu and what's next?

Basil
23-07-2009, 06:06 PM
Wow how many flus have there been around... first the Spanish flu, then the mad cow disease, the bird flu, the swine flu, and common flu and what's next?
One Flu over The Cuckoo's Nest

Rincewind
23-07-2009, 06:36 PM
Wow how many flus have there been around... first the Spanish flu, then the mad cow disease, the bird flu, the swine flu, and common flu and what's next?

First of all, Mad Cow's is not a flu.

AFAIK there are three species of Influenza usually called A, B, C. Of these the one that presents the most issues to humans is Influenza A. Then each species is broken down into serotypes based on antibody response of the virus. That is where the H1N1, H1N5, etc labels come from. These are then broken down into strains such that one serotype can have many strains (and new strains evolve all the time).

For example Spanish Flu and Swine Flu are both H1N1 serotypes of Influenza A but almost certainly different strains. Bird Flu is a strain of H5N1 serotype.

So what's next?

No one really knows but we are sure that there will be a "next" but there is no reason to think even if immunity is organised to H1N1 that new strains of this serotype won't evolve for which our immunity is useless and we will again be wearing masks and telling jokes about mexican pigs in a few year's time.

Axiom
23-07-2009, 07:40 PM
Why have a poll where the trials and recommendations are not yet complete. because i'm doing a longitudinal study perhaps ?





I did and the first page of results contained many links to silly government conspiracy sites.
maybe the same type of sites that have more accurately constructed a model of reality by being a superior predictor of future events than the mainstream perhaps?? (refer to my "remember when" series just started in info wars thread)

Axiom
23-07-2009, 07:44 PM
The poll is either meaningless or misleading.
I would split it into at least two parts:
1. If government wants to impose mandatory vaccination, will you oppose it?
2. If, despite the opposition, government makes it mandatory, will you risk breaking the law to avoid taking it?
hows is it meaningless or misleading ??
its very simple , knowing what you know now , if the vaccine became mandatory , would you resist taking it ?
i understand yours and rw's reservations , but this is just the start .

Axiom
23-07-2009, 07:45 PM
By coincidence, last night's episode of SVU was about a mother who was charged with murder because her refusal to vaccinate her son for measles led to the infection of another child who later died.

The show mentioned that there are generally two reasons for people to refuse a vaccine. It is either (i) on religious/cultural grounds or (ii) because of some fear of side-effects.




predictive programming ?

Axiom
23-07-2009, 07:47 PM
I'm afraid that I can't not bring myself to not vote in a poll that doesn't have a double negative in it.
so why didn't you vote ?? :P

Axiom
23-07-2009, 07:49 PM
One Flu over The Cuckoo's Nest
refer : Baxter Pharmaceuticals !

Rincewind
23-07-2009, 08:26 PM
because i'm doing a longitudinal study perhaps ?

To describe posting an internet poll on a BB where you have a reputation as a strangoid as "doing a study," longitudinal or otherwise, stretches credulity to comic extremes. A more likely explanation is you just got excited about some preemptive beat-up on one of the big government conspiracy looney tunes sites like those appearing on the first page of the google search you recommended.


maybe the same type of sites that have more accurately constructed a model of reality by being a superior predictor of future events than the mainstream perhaps?? (refer to my "remember when" series just started in info wars thread)

I wouldn't recommend that you go down that line or argument in a thread outside the one to which you refer, unless you wish to have this thread merged with that one.

Igor_Goldenberg
24-07-2009, 10:08 AM
hows is it meaningless or misleading ??
its very simple , knowing what you know now , if the vaccine became mandatory , would you resist taking it ?
i understand yours and rw's reservations , but this is just the start .
I generally dislike questions based on dubious assumptions.
I would definitely oppose any attempt to make any vaccination mandatory (and hopefully wouldn't be alone).
You are effectively asking "If government tries to impose it and opposition fail, would you defy the law?" To that my answer is that we would live in a different countries, and our behaviour would be different. Another reason why I dislike hypothetical questions.

Axiom
24-07-2009, 06:15 PM
I generally dislike questions based on dubious assumptions.
I would definitely oppose any attempt to make any vaccination mandatory (and hopefully wouldn't be alone).
You are effectively asking "If government tries to impose it and opposition fail, would you defy the law?" To that my answer is that we would live in a different countries, and our behaviour would be different. Another reason why I dislike hypothetical questions.
ok fair enough.
perhaps we differ on the degree of 'hypotheticalness' of the question .

The WHO are certainly discussing that possible future option

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14370

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/notes/h1n1_vaccine_20090713/en/index.html

http://birdflu666.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/who-moves-forward-in-secrecy-to-accomplish-population-agenda/

Axiom
24-07-2009, 08:43 PM
List Of Components Of Glaxo H1N1 Vaccine
7-19-9


BIOLOGICAL INDEX

chicken embryos (eggs)
influenza virus, H5N1
virus culture

CHEMICAL INDEX

alpha-tocopherol
aluminum adjuvant
AS03 adjuvant
Daronrix
disodium phosphate
formaldehyde
magnesium chloride
octoxynol 10
polysorbate 80 (Tween 80
potassium chloride
potassium dihydrogen phosphate
sodium chloride
sodium deoxycholate
squalene
thiomersal (thimerosol) (MERCURY)
vitamin E

http://birdflu666.wordpress.com:80/2009/07/18/glaxos-vaccine-
characterised-by-regulators-eu-and-usas-biodefense-stockpile-drug/

Rincewind
24-07-2009, 09:03 PM
oh yeah, birdflu666, is that an official government health website? :)

Axiom
24-07-2009, 09:17 PM
oh yeah, birdflu666, is that an official government health website? :)
oh , could you please supply one rw , i mean surely the contents of the vaccine is important information ,we should be able to access easily ! :rolleyes: :lol:

Rincewind
24-07-2009, 09:38 PM
oh , could you please supply one rw , i mean surely the contents of the vaccine is important information ,we should be able to access easily ! :rolleyes: :lol:

Nah, your right. It's much more fun to just make stuff up.

Axiom
24-07-2009, 09:42 PM
Nah, your right. It's much more fun to just make stuff up.
= evasion of the axiomatic point ! (noted)

Rincewind
24-07-2009, 10:00 PM
= evasion of the axiomatic point ! (noted)

= trying to draw attention from the fact that your just propagating stuff that has been totally just made up.

I mean if you had any style you would make your own stuff up. :lol:

Axiom
24-07-2009, 10:09 PM
= trying to draw attention from the fact that your just propagating stuff that has been totally just made up.

I mean if you had any style you would make your own stuff up. :lol:
i'll let you work out your own illogicality there !!

but here's a clue : 1) you have not established that the content of the content is made up
2) you fail to recognise the fundamental point , that if it is so easy to be informed as to "your real" vaccine contents then enlighten me as to where to obtain such list
3) ask yourself why this contents list should be so difficult to obtain , surely nothing to hide eh , surely news worthy eh ? surely important information eh ?

Bill Gletsos
24-07-2009, 10:15 PM
I mean if you had any style you would make your own stuff up. :lol:He already does that as can be seen here (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=6076) and here (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=4366).

Rincewind
24-07-2009, 10:17 PM
He already does that as can be seen here (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=6076) and here (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=4366).

My mistake. The stuff he makes up is not as good. :)

Igor_Goldenberg
24-07-2009, 10:34 PM
i'll let you work out your own illogicality there !!
Don't hold your breath, it's not his strongest trait. However, his logical weakness does not strengthen your point for the reasons outlined below:


but here's a clue : 1) you have not established that the content of the content is made up
2) you fail to recognise the fundamental point , that if it is so easy to be informed as to "your real" vaccine contents then enlighten me as to where to obtain such list
3) ask yourself why this contents list should be so difficult to obtain , surely nothing to hide eh , surely news worthy eh ? surely important information eh ?

There are many vaccines around. Can you credibly show that their contents much easier to obtain then the swine flu vaccine?
I was not even aware that swine flu vaccine is available.
Also can you show credible evidence that any government planning to make it mandatory?
The way governments work (at least in Western countries) is that they would leak information to gauge whether public will accept whatever they are going to do. That way government can always pretend it was never going to implement whatever was leaked.
This is the main reason I seriously doubt any talk of mandatory vaccine has any basis.

Rincewind
24-07-2009, 10:43 PM
Don't hold your breath, it's not his strongest trait.

:lol:

What a petty, little man you are Igor.

Axiom
24-07-2009, 10:45 PM
There are many vaccines around. Can you credibly show that their contents much easier to obtain then the swine flu vaccine? no



I was not even aware that swine flu vaccine is available. further supporting my thesis that we are grossly ill informed

Also can you show credible evidence that any government planning to make it mandatory? no , only the WHO recommendations linked to in earlier post .

The way governments work (at least in Western countries) is that they would leak information to gauge whether public will accept whatever they are going to do. That way government can always pretend it was never going to implement whatever was leaked. true

This is the main reason I seriously doubt any talk of mandatory vaccine has any basis. even considering the WHO recommendations ?

but No Mandatory Vaccine Federal Law...Yet?
http://www.rense.com/general86/mandd.htm

Igor_Goldenberg
25-07-2009, 04:00 PM
further supporting my thesis that we are grossly ill informed

Could you link to an announcement by pharmaceutical company that they have developed a vaccine against swine flu?


no , only the WHO recommendations linked to in earlier post.

That link does not work. Any other?


but No Mandatory Vaccine Federal Law...Yet?
http://www.rense.com/general86/mandd.htm
I looked the the article (not thoroughly though). They discuss the legality of mandatory vaccination in US. Other any shred of evidence that US, Australian or any other Western government consider mandatory vaccination?
While the level of mainstream media is appalling, it's still much higher then conspiracy theory sites you link to.

Axiom
25-07-2009, 04:56 PM
Could you link to an announcement by pharmaceutical company that they have developed a vaccine against swine flu?the final tested product i understand is not yet available , however

Trials are underway , so the answer is close to yes http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/12/2597233.htm
orders are being placed! http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/stories/2009/07/13/daily26.html



That link does not work. Any other?works for me
http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/notes/h1n1_vaccine_20090713/en/index.html



I looked the the article (not thoroughly though). They discuss the legality of mandatory vaccination in US. Other any shred of evidence that US, Australian or any other Western government consider mandatory vaccination?
Reuters :Mandatory Swine Flu vaccination globally likely by next week
http://current.com/items/90400306_reuters-mandatory-swine-flu-vaccination-globally-likely-by-next-week.htm



While the level of mainstream media is appalling, it's still much higher then conspiracy theory sites you link to. in some areas yes , but i certainly wouldn't rely on it , without broadening perspectives .
There might be a lot of rubbish on these sites , but for a dedicated researcher , they pop up interesting leads you would not get elsewhere . Its like being a gold digger sifting through the dirt. You need to go through the dirt to find the gold .(The same with any media)

Igor_Goldenberg
25-07-2009, 07:04 PM
the final tested product i understand is not yet available , however

Trials are underway , so the answer is close to yes

Which means that vaccine is not yet available.
Are you suggesting that the media deliberately withholding information of vaccine availability?



works for me
http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/notes/h1n1_vaccine_20090713/en/index.html

Reuters :Mandatory Swine Flu vaccination globally likely by next week
http://current.com/items/90400306_reuters-mandatory-swine-flu-vaccination-globally-likely-by-next-week.htm

Thanks.
WHO article does not say anything about vaccination being mandatory.
The other link claims that Reuters reported about "Mandatory Swine Flu vaccination globally likely by next week", yet did not provide a link to a Reuters,only to some blogger who did not provide link either.



There might be a lot of rubbish on these sites , but for a dedicated researcher , they pop up interesting leads you would not get elsewhere . Its like being a gold digger sifting through the dirt. You need to go through the dirt to find the gold .(The same with any media)

May I suggest the same level of scepticism towards them as towards other media.

Igor_Goldenberg
25-07-2009, 07:06 PM
About ten years ago I read some books that criticise official version of history and chronology. They indeed uncovered a lot of contradictions and demonstrated that currently accepted version of history (especially before 16th century) is no more then hypothesis with very low level of proof and probability.
However, when authors offered their own version, I realised that it does not stand to scrutiny, especially if you apply to their versions the same test they apply to official history.

Same happens to vast majority of conspirologist. They note contradictions and inaccuracy in mainstream media (often due to incompetence), but the alternatives they offer are usually much more laughable.

Small number of people can conspire for a short time, but any conspiracy that involves large number of people or a long period of time is doomed to fail.

Axiom
25-07-2009, 07:20 PM
Small number of people can conspire for a short time, but any conspiracy that involves large number of people or a long period of time is doomed to fail.
so do you consider the"vast conspiracy" that jfk made the subject of a speech , to have failed ?

Axiom
25-07-2009, 07:47 PM
Which means that vaccine is not yet available.yes , not in post trials form .

Are you suggesting that the media deliberately withholding information of vaccine availability? no , the media , just generally fails to inform us as to the stages of production , the court case against bayer , the blunder by baxter ( "accidently " mixing virus in vaccines) the same companies producing them ! , and vigorous debate on the matter.



Thanks.
WHO article does not say anything about vaccination being mandatory.not quite right , it recommends for various sub groups, in effect mandatory for those groups.

The other link claims that Reuters reported about "Mandatory Swine Flu vaccination globally likely by next week", yet did not provide a link to a Reuters,only to some blogger who did not provide link either.yes , this is disappointing , and im about to confront that blogger on dispensing disinformation . I apologise for that slipping through.




May I suggest the same level of scepticism towards them as towards other media. absolutely ! :)

Just a reminder , that the poll question does start with an "if" ( i understand though your reservations re hypothetical polls )

Igor_Goldenberg
25-07-2009, 09:52 PM
no , the media , just generally fails to inform us as to the stages of production , the court case against bayer , the blunder by baxter ( "accidently " mixing virus in vaccines) the same companies producing them ! , and vigorous debate on the matter.


Could it be because:
1. Swine flu is not as dangerous as initial beat-up suggested.
2. Vaccine is not ready yet.

It can be argued whether it's right or wrong for media to devote much or little space to this issue. However, I see very little to suggest a conspiracy.


not quite right , it recommends for various sub groups, in effect mandatory for those groups.

I read it carefully. Due to a small number of vaccine available in the initial stage WHO suggests to make it available to various groups in stages (e.g. preferential treatment to some groups when demand exceeds supply). I can see rationale in that approach (without necessarily agreeing with or objecting to). However, I cannot see anything that would indicate that WHO suggests the vaccine being mandatory.

Axiom
25-07-2009, 10:27 PM
Could it be because:
1. Swine flu is not as dangerous as initial beat-up suggested. but this is mutually exclusive to reporting on the bayer/baxter blunders, and vigorous debate on the matter.

2. Vaccine is not ready yet.but this is mutually exclusive to reporting on the bayer/baxter blunders, and vigorous debate on the matter.


It can be argued whether it's right or wrong for media to devote much or little space to this issue. However, I see very little to suggest a conspiracy.perhaps you are right , but the fact remains , we are grossly ill informed by our media , as you accept.



I read it carefully. Due to a small number of vaccine available in the initial stage WHO suggests to make it available to various groups in stages (e.g. preferential treatment to some groups when demand exceeds supply). I can see rationale in that approach (without necessarily agreeing with or objecting to). However, I cannot see anything that would indicate that WHO suggests the vaccine being mandatory. but if youre in front line medical team - it would effectively be mandatory , or youre out of a job , or at least that job.
But point taken , and i refer again to the "if" at the start of the poll question ,knowing , here that we are discussing the degree of hypotheticalness of the mandate.

Axiom
26-07-2009, 03:27 PM
WHO Will Be Killing You?
(WHO) - World Health Organization Facts & Rumors



http://www.rense.com/general86/whdo.htm

Axiom
26-07-2009, 04:19 PM
z64mrb-M7KE

Rincewind
26-07-2009, 05:12 PM
What a load of crap.

Igor_Goldenberg
26-07-2009, 05:25 PM
but if youre in front line medical team - it would effectively be mandatory , or youre out of a job , or at least that job.

Requirements to a medical worker to have certain vaccination is quite reasonable (it might right or wrong sometimes, but it besides the point) has nothing to do with mandatory vaccination of the population.

Axiom
26-07-2009, 06:25 PM
What a load of crap.
i'll let you know that's the respected "Russia Today" you're talking about there !

Do you believe Baxter "accidently" mixed live avian flu virus in some of their vaccines ?

Axiom
26-07-2009, 06:30 PM
Requirements to a medical worker to have certain vaccination is quite reasonable (it might right or wrong sometimes, but it besides the point) has nothing to do with mandatory vaccination of the population.
true , but as we both know, this poll is based on a hypothetical premise.
and we are debating its degree of hypotheticalness.

Igor_Goldenberg
26-07-2009, 06:38 PM
true , but as we both know, this poll is based on a hypothetical premise.
and we are debating its degree of hypotheticalness.
Ax, the probability of the premise is so low it makes poll meaningless.
You might ask a different question;
If government tries/proposes to make vaccination (any vaccination!) compulsory, would you oppose it?

Axiom
26-07-2009, 06:42 PM
Ax, the probability of the premise is so low it makes poll meaningless.
You might ask a different question;
If government tries/proposes to make vaccination (any vaccination!) compulsory, would you oppose it?
your point and argument is strong ,and well taken ,but my poll in a way mirrors your poll alternative , and should elicit roughly the same results shouldn't it ?

Rincewind
26-07-2009, 06:58 PM
i'll let you know that's the respected "Russia Today" you're talking about there !

You mean the highly pro-Kremlin Russia Today program. :)

All you have is some border line conspirator journalist claiming to have spoken with scientific authorities in May and since one of the things they claimed has happened (outbreaks of this new strain of H1N1 will be reported widely) then the other things they claim (lab escape conjecture) is also true.

Firstly the widespread reporting of cases is not unexpected so his unrevealed sources were not exactly out on a limb there. But even if they did predict something that was genuinely unlikely, that does not mean they are necessarily right about anything else.

Wayne Madsen would seem to be nothing more than attention seeking journalist without a story.

Axiom
26-07-2009, 07:30 PM
Squalene: The Swine Flu Vaccine’s Dirty Little Secret Exposed

By Dr. Mercola

http://blogs.mercola.com/sites/vitalvotes/archive/2009/07/17/Squalene-The-Swine-Flu-Vaccines-Dirty-Little-Secret-Exposed.aspx
(well referenced)

Rincewind
26-07-2009, 11:46 PM
Squalene: The Swine Flu Vaccine’s Dirty Little Secret Exposed

By Dr. Mercola

http://blogs.mercola.com/sites/vitalvotes/archive/2009/07/17/Squalene-The-Swine-Flu-Vaccines-Dirty-Little-Secret-Exposed.aspx
(well referenced)

Who would have thought a one of the biggest (in terms of self-promotion) natural therapists would speak out against vaccination. Will wonders ever cease? :rolleyes:

Axiom
27-07-2009, 12:03 AM
Who would have thought a one of the biggest (in terms of self-promotion) natural therapists would speak out against vaccination. Will wonders ever cease? :rolleyes:
that's easier than discrediting the content of what he has to say !

i'm sure you treat governments and vaccine producers with the same scrutiny !? :rolleyes:

Rincewind
27-07-2009, 07:52 AM
i'm sure you treat governments and vaccine producers with the same scrutiny !? :rolleyes:

I leave that to the loons. You seem to enjoy it.

Igor_Goldenberg
27-07-2009, 10:00 AM
Squalene: The Swine Flu Vaccine’s Dirty Little Secret Exposed

By Dr. Mercola

http://blogs.mercola.com/sites/vitalvotes/archive/2009/07/17/Squalene-The-Swine-Flu-Vaccines-Dirty-Little-Secret-Exposed.aspx
(well referenced)
Interesting article, but can you point anything suggesting compulsory nature of vaccination?

Axiom
27-07-2009, 03:01 PM
I leave that to the loons. You seem to enjoy it.
here is where , in debate , you have the unfortunate knack of resorting to disrespectful terms .....i see what igor has had to endure.

Axiom
27-07-2009, 03:03 PM
Interesting article, but can you point anything suggesting compulsory nature of vaccination?
it is a hypothetical poll igor .
but as we are officially in a pandemic , mandatory vaccinations are not beyond probability.

Igor_Goldenberg
27-07-2009, 03:29 PM
it is a hypothetical poll igor .
but as we are officially in a pandemic , mandatory vaccinations are not beyond probability.
Can you point a single pandemic that brought compulsory vaccination?

Axiom
27-07-2009, 03:50 PM
Can you point a single pandemic that brought compulsory vaccination?
google : history of compulsory vaccination &
history of mandatory vaccinations

interesting article from lancet and from wikipedia

"In an attempt to eliminate the risk of outbreaks of some diseases, at various times several governments and other institutions have instituted policies requiring vaccination for all people. For example, an 1853 law required universal vaccination against smallpox in England and Wales, with fines levied on people who did not comply. Common contemporary U.S. vaccination policies require that children receive common vaccinations before entering school. Most other countries also have some compulsory vaccinations."

Timeline results for history of compulsory vaccination
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=history+of++compulsory+vaccination&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=DNJ&sa=G&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=LD5tStjnJYvYsgPJvK3KDg&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=history+of++mandatory+vaccinations&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=G&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=P0ptSqCNI4nosQOowqjKDg&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11

(i believe troops were forcibly inoculated in 1918 flu epidemic , but need to find supportive evidence )

Rincewind
27-07-2009, 04:18 PM
Common contemporary U.S. vaccination policies require that children receive common vaccinations before entering school. Most other countries also have some compulsory vaccinations.

That is a very loose usage of the word compulsory. Surely it is only compulsory if you choose to avail yourself of the public education system.

Axiom
27-07-2009, 04:48 PM
That is a very loose usage of the word compulsory. Surely it is only compulsory if you choose to avail yourself of the public education system.
of course there are many levels of "compulsory" or "mandatory" , we're not talking "gun to the head" yet .

please see the 2 time lines in my previous post.
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=history+of++mandatory+vaccinations&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=G&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=P0ptSqCNI4nosQOowqjKDg&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11

Rincewind
27-07-2009, 05:15 PM
of course there are many levels of "compulsory" or "mandatory" , we're not talking "gun to the head" yet.

Perhaps you should seek to define the term as you mean it. I mean all vaccines are "mandatory" if you wish to be inoculated from the disease in question.

Axiom
27-07-2009, 05:44 PM
Perhaps you should seek to define the term as you mean it. I mean all vaccines are "mandatory" if you wish to be inoculated from the disease in question.
for the purposes of this poll , it is not necessary .
the poll simply sought to gauge bbers response to a hypothetical but not far fetched scenario to see their reaction in an extreme situation .
ala a geoffrey roberstson .

Rincewind
27-07-2009, 06:00 PM
for the purposes of this poll , it is not necessary .
the poll simply sought to gauge bbers response to a hypothetical but not far fetched scenario to see their reaction in an extreme situation .
ala a geoffrey roberstson .

Well I think it is necessary to have a clearly and common understanding to a poll question if you want any sort of reliable result from the poll.

I think most people reading "mandatory" as it is used in the poll question would not think of the sort of mandatory which applies to vaccines like those for rubella and measles. However these are mandatory in the sense you use the word in the last few posts.

Axiom
27-07-2009, 07:10 PM
a side but related issue :

Vaccinations: Deadly Immunity
"Government health agencies colluded with Big Pharma to hide the risks"

by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14510

Rincewind
27-07-2009, 08:00 PM
Vaccinations: Deadly Immunity
"Government health agencies colluded with Big Pharma to hide the risks"

by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14510

The paper makes a number of scientific mistakes (or deliberately misleading statements). Most obviously and significantly is the confusion of the toxicity of mercury the unbound element and implying compounds containing mercury have the same level of toxicity.

The hosting Global Research looks to be a borderline conspiracy site of the anti-New World Order variety. Certainly the article looks to be of that genre - big government colluding with big drug companies.

The post publication notes are interesting. While they chide the NYT for saying the article was trying to obscure data on vaccines and autism, something which they say the article does not even imply (though anyone familiar with the conspiracy theory would suspect otherwise), the publishers then go on (a few paragraphs later) to talk directly about autism. Thus revealing that the implication was in fact there. For the record they say...

"... the government cannot even provide a definitive figure of the number of cases of autism among American children -- a number obviously critical to any serious scientific investigation -- and yet expects the public to believe that it has ruled out any link between vaccines and an illness it does not even track."

Why say this if the article was not even implying a link to the vaccine -> autism conspiracy chestnut?

Axiom
27-07-2009, 08:35 PM
The paper makes a number of scientific mistakes (or deliberately misleading statements). Most obviously and significantly is the confusion of the toxicity of mercury the unbound element and implying compounds containing mercury have the same level of toxicity.

The hosting Global Research looks to be a borderline conspiracy site of the anti-New World Order variety. Certainly the article looks to be of that genre - big government colluding with big drug companies.

The post publication notes are interesting. While they chide the NYT for saying the article was trying to obscure data on vaccines and autism, something which they say the article does not even imply (though anyone familiar with the conspiracy theory would suspect otherwise), the publishers then go on (a few paragraphs later) to talk directly about autism. Thus revealing that the implication was in fact there. For the record they say...

"... the government cannot even provide a definitive figure of the number of cases of autism among American children -- a number obviously critical to any serious scientific investigation -- and yet expects the public to believe that it has ruled out any link between vaccines and an illness it does not even track."

Why say this if the article was not even implying a link to the vaccine -> autism conspiracy chestnut?
first you have a go at "russia today" now it's robert f kennedy !

please tell us your trusted sources ?

Rincewind
28-07-2009, 08:14 AM
please tell us your trusted sources ?

Implicitly trust no source. Seek the evidence.

Axiom
28-07-2009, 01:31 PM
http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20090522/FREE/905229982#

Axiom
28-07-2009, 01:48 PM
Implicitly trust no source. Seek the evidence.
Quite right too .
Now apologise to Dr. Mercola ! ;)

AzureBlue
28-07-2009, 05:14 PM
That is a very loose usage of the word compulsory. Surely it is only compulsory if you choose to avail yourself of the public education system.
Or the private schools as well... :hmm: :uhoh:

Axiom
31-07-2009, 04:09 PM
Fox’s Shepard Smith almost said “draconian” and instead said “drastic” while reporting on Northcom’s involvement in plans to “administer” a toxic H1N1 vaccine, more than likely in October. Robert Gates, the Bush admin leftover at the Pentagon, is ready to sign off on marrying troops with FEMA when the engineered pandemic breaks out later this year. No mention of the egregious violation of Posse Comitatus this plan presents in the Fox News report:


QtGofsHaj3M

Axiom
01-08-2009, 03:01 AM
Ten things you're not supposed to know about the swine flu vaccine
(At least, not by anyone in authority...)

http://www.naturalnews.com/z026717_swine_flu_flu_vaccine_swine_flu_vaccine.ht ml

Axiom
01-08-2009, 03:52 AM
H1N1 Pandemic: Pentagon Planning Deployment of Troops in Support of Nationwide Vaccination
Militarization of public health in the case of emergency is now official

by Michel Chossudovsky

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14580

Kevin Bonham
01-08-2009, 05:00 PM
Ten things you're not supposed to know about the swine flu vaccine
(At least, not by anyone in authority...)

http://www.naturalnews.com/z026717_swine_flu_flu_vaccine_swine_flu_vaccine.ht ml

That site presents no scientific evidence to back its claims and no evidence that the author has a clue. That the 1976 vaccine was a fiasco that was worse than the disease is well enough known but given the lack of adequate argument or referencing in that article I can't take the remainder of it seriously.

Axiom
01-08-2009, 05:08 PM
That site presents no scientific evidence to back its claims and no evidence that the author has a clue. That the 1976 vaccine was a fiasco that was worse than the disease is well enough known but given the lack of adequate argument or referencing in that article I can't take the remainder of it seriously. you are evidence of how scientists are straight jacketed by their own 'rules of science' , to fail to investigate further out of their little bubble of knowledge.

Rincewind
01-08-2009, 05:13 PM
you are evidence of how scientists are straight jacketed by their own 'rules of science' , to fail to investigate further out of their little bubble of knowledge.

is that hate speech?

Kevin Bonham
01-08-2009, 05:22 PM
you are evidence of how scientists are straight jacketed by their own 'rules of science' , to fail to investigate further out of their little bubble of knowledge.

Total rubbish; I am often very interested in reading scientifically sound presentations about areas of science that I have no previous understanding of.

My point is that when a good scientist wants to learn about areas of science outside their specialty, they will do so by reading material that argues its case effectively using evidence and reference to known facts, rather than by reading unsubstantiated political gibberish written by someone who provides no evidence that he has a clue.

So when you present gibberish links like that one you do not assist any person, rational or otherwise, to understand the matter usefully.

Axiom
02-08-2009, 12:30 AM
Children - don't even take the tamiflu ! :rolleyes:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090731/tuk-swine-flu-drug-has-side-effects-6323e80.htm

Axiom
02-08-2009, 12:41 AM
Total rubbish; I am often very interested in reading scientifically sound presentations about areas of science that I have no previous understanding of.

My point is that when a good scientist wants to learn about areas of science outside their specialty, they will do so by reading material that argues its case effectively using evidence and reference to known facts, rather than by reading unsubstantiated political gibberish written by someone who provides no evidence that he has a clue.

So when you present gibberish links like that one you do not assist any person, rational or otherwise, to understand the matter usefully.
you are correct except you fail to realise when investigating that which the mainstream avoids you are unlikely to find information neatly sealed to satisfy your interpretation of what is correct science , such is the nature of the information .

but i ask you again , if you agree the mainstream ill informs us , then perhaps you yourself could outline say 3 stories it fails to inform us on(at the same time meeting your own criteria of admissible evidence) ? :lol:

Kevin Bonham
02-08-2009, 02:22 AM
you are correct except you fail to realise when investigating that which the mainstream avoids you are unlikely to find information neatly sealed to satisfy your interpretation of what is correct science , such is the nature of the information .

No, such is the nature of the cranks peddling the nonsense that you link to. There is nothing about claims concerning the health of vaccines that renders them impenetrable to science, and obviously much mainstream science on the failures of the 1976 response (for instance) already exists.


but i ask you again , if you agree the mainstream ill informs us , then perhaps you yourself could outline say 3 stories it fails to inform us on(at the same time meeting your own criteria of admissible evidence) ? :lol:

Ill-informing and failing to discuss at all are different things as I already noted on another thread.

Axiom
02-08-2009, 02:35 AM
There is nothing about claims concerning the health of vaccines that renders them impenetrable to science, and obviously much mainstream science on the failures of the 1976 response (for instance) already exists.
exactly , and many scientists are concerned about their safety , you just don't get to hear about it too readily !




Ill-informing and failing to discuss at all are different things as I already noted on another thread.
incorrect , ill informing means either no reporting or inadequate/sufficient reporting.
so come on i'll make it easier for you , just provide a single story that the mainstream ill informs us on .

Kevin Bonham
02-08-2009, 04:14 PM
exactly , and many scientists are concerned about their safety , you just don't get to hear about it too readily !

Then name those scientists and point to credible scientific comments they have made about the current issue, instead of pointing to unsubstantiated fearmongering that provides no evidence of qualification or clue factor.


incorrect , ill informing means either no reporting or inadequate/sufficient reporting.

Which is why "ill-informing" is not the same thing as not informing; the latter is a subset of the former.

On that basis it is perfectly possible for a person to believe the media are severely ill-informing without believing that they are severely non-informing, at which point the entire line of your claimed inconsistency collapses.

As it happens it collapses for other reasons as well.


so come on i'll make it easier for you , just provide a single story that the mainstream ill informs us on .

In my experience mainstream media information on everything I am an authority on or even remotely knowledgeable about is likely to be riddled with errors and misunderstandings. To give an example from my own experience, mainstream media reporting of a court case about a snail (in which I defeated a bunch of greenies who argued even more ineptly than you) was so incompetent and sensationalist that I took out Press Council complaints against The Age and a local newspaper and forced both to print letters in reply.

Axiom
02-08-2009, 05:13 PM
Then name those scientists and point to credible scientific comments they have made about the current issue, instead of pointing to unsubstantiated fearmongering that provides no evidence of qualification or clue factor.
Dr. Mercola
Dr. Shiv Chopra, PhD, a vaccine and drug regulator for Health Canada for nearly forty years http://preventdisease.com/news/08/060408_health_canada.shtml

"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunisation of children does more harm than good."
Dr J Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer, US Food
and Drug Administration

"The greatest threat of childhood disease lies in the dangerous and
ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass immunisation."
Dr R. Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics (How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)

"In our opinion, there is now sufficient evidence of immune malfunction following current vaccination programmes to anticipate growing public demands for research investigation into alternative methods of prevention of infectious disease."
Dr's H. Buttram and J. Hoffman (Vaccinations and Immune Malfunctions)

"All vaccination has the effect of directing the three values of the blood
into or toward the zone characteristics of cancer and leukemia...Vaccines DO predispose to cancer and leukaemia."
Professor L.C. Vincent, Founder of Bioelectronics

"Every vaccine carries certain hazards and can produce inward reactions in some people...in general, there are more vaccine complications than is generally appreciated."
Professor George Dick, London University

"Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection."
Dr A. Sabin, developer of the Oral Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)

"In addition to the many obvious cases of mortality from these practises,
there are also long-term hazards which are almost impossible to estimate
accurately...the inherent danger of of all vaccine procedures should be a
deterrent to their unnecessary or unjustifiable use."
Sir Graham Wilson (The Hazards of Immunisation)

"Laying aside the very real possibility that the various vaccines are
contaminated with animal viruses and may cause serious illness later in life (multiple sclerosis, cancer, leukaemia, etc) we must consider whether the vaccines really work for their intended purpose."
Dr W.C. Douglas (Cutting Edge, May 1990)

"The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used"
Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

With reference to Smallpox;

"Vaccination is a monstrosity, a misbegotten offspring of error and
ignorance, it should have no place in either hygiene or medicine...Believe not in vaccination, it is a world-wide delusion, an unscientific practise, a fatal superstition with consequences measured today by tears and sorrow without end."
Professor Chas Rauta, University of Perguia, Italy , (New York Medical Journal July 1899)

"Vaccination does not protect, it actually renders its subjects more
susceptible by depressing vital power and diminishing natural resistance, and millions of people have died of smallpox which they contracted after being vaccinated."
Dr J.W. Hodge (The Vaccination Superstition)

"It is nonsense to think that you can inject pus - and it is usually from the pustule end of the dead smallpox victim … it is unthinkable that you can inject that into a little child and in any way improve its health. What is true of vaccination is exactly as true of all forms of serum immunisation, if we could by any means build up a natural resistance to disease through these artificial means, I would applaud it to the echo, but we can't do it."
Dr William Howard Hay (lecture to Medical Freedom Society, June 25th 1937)

"Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself."
Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation

With reference to Whooping Cough;

"There is no doubt in my mind that in the UK alone some hundreds, if not thousands of well infants have suffered irreparable brain damage needlessly and that their lives and those of their parents have been wrecked in consequence."
Professor Gordon Stewart, University of Glasgow (Here's Health, March 1980)

"My suspicion, which is shared by others in my profession, is that the
nearly 10,000 SIDS deaths that occur in the US each year are related to one or more of the vaccines that are routinely given to children. The pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine is the most likely villain , but it could also be one or more of the others."
Dr R Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics (How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)

"The worst vaccine of all is the whooping cough vaccine...it is responsible for a lot of deaths and for a lot of infants suffering irreversible brain damage.."
Dr Archie Kalokerinos, Author and Vaccine Researcher (Natural Health Convention, Stanwell Tops, NSW, Australia 1987)

http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web3.html

this may be on the general vaccine debate , but as the h1n1 is relatively new , material is less easy to access . however as the h1n1 vaccine is a subset of vaccines , then the above holds.



Which is why "ill-informing" is not the same thing as not informing; the latter is a subset of the former.

On that basis it is perfectly possible for a person to believe the media are severely ill-informing without believing that they are severely non-informing, at which point the entire line of your claimed inconsistency collapses.

As it happens it collapses for other reasons as well. to clarify , my thesis is this : the mainstream media non informs us and ill informs us on major issues of importance .
this i have shown by outlining stories it fails to inform on , and ill inform on.




In my experience mainstream media information on everything I am an authority on or even remotely knowledgeable about is likely to be riddled with errors and misunderstandings. To give an example from my own experience, mainstream media reporting of a court case about a snail (in which I defeated a bunch of greenies who argued even more ineptly than you) was so incompetent and sensationalist that I took out Press Council complaints against The Age and a local newspaper and forced both to print letters in reply. well done , good to see.

we both agree that the media non informs us and ill informs us on a variety of topics , some more important than others .
eg. where is the debate on vaccines ,gm food, water sodium fluoridation of water supply etc etc ?

Kevin Bonham
02-08-2009, 10:57 PM
this may be on the general vaccine debate , but as the h1n1 is relatively new , material is less easy to access . however as the h1n1 vaccine is a subset of vaccines , then the above holds.

Well, some of the above is ludicrously outdated and the vast majority of it consists of assertions unaccompanied by specific evidence in the quotes given. Some of the quotes also have an obvious whiff of possible quote-mining around them. The improvement at least is that you have cited the comments of some qualified sources instead of linking to an unqualified one that was clearly extremely dubious.


to clarify , my thesis is this : the mainstream media non informs us and ill informs us on major issues of importance .
this i have shown by outlining stories it fails to inform on , and ill inform on.

Response moved to Information War thread.


we both agree that the media non informs us and ill informs us on a variety of topics , some more important than others .
eg. where is the debate on vaccines ,gm food, water sodium fluoridation of water supply etc etc ?

Ditto.

Axiom
03-08-2009, 01:49 PM
More Evidence Revealing the Intentional Collusion to Create a Swine Flu Pandemic
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/112398

Igor_Goldenberg
03-08-2009, 02:11 PM
More Evidence Revealing the Intentional Collusion to Create a Swine Flu Pandemic
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/112398
Let's suppose the article is correct and Novartis Pharmaceuticals of Basel deliberately created a weaponized strain of influenza.
In this case:
a. Why does it spread slower then usual seasonal flu?
b. Why is it milder and less dangerous then usual seasonal flu?

Axiom
03-08-2009, 02:21 PM
Let's suppose the article is correct and Novartis Pharmaceuticals of Basel deliberately created a weaponized strain of influenza.
In this case:
a. Why does it spread slower then usual seasonal flu?
b. Why is it milder and less dangerous then usual seasonal flu?

possibilities:

1) motive could be purely money .
or
2) they know it could/would mutate to deadlier strain after interacting with vaccine or otherwise.

Igor_Goldenberg
03-08-2009, 02:42 PM
possibilities:

1) motive could be purely money .
or
2) they know it could/would mutate to deadlier strain after interacting with vaccine or otherwise.
Please read the link you post
The article specifically says: "weaponized", "mass murder", "deliberately reducing the population", etc.
"purely money" contradicts it.
"mutate to a deadlier strain", especially after the vaccine available (which is not yet!) contradicts presumption it's weaponized.

Axiom
03-08-2009, 02:51 PM
Please read the link you post
The article specifically says: "weaponized", "mass murder", "deliberately reducing the population", etc.
"purely money" contradicts it.
"mutate to a deadlier strain", especially after the vaccine available (which is not yet!) contradicts presumption it's weaponized.
i am suggesting it could only be the first step .
i agree , the money motive is not relevant in this context.

Axiom
03-08-2009, 11:12 PM
A/H1N1 vaccination plan a big experiment, doctor says

The enormous vaccination programme against the A/H1N1 swine flu virus due to start this autumn across Germany is nothing less than a huge experiment, a prominent critic of the pharmaceutical industry says.
Wolfgang Becker-Brüser, doctor and publisher of the arznei-telegramm magazine which details critiques of the pharmaceutical industry, says current safety testing rules allow for up to a quarter of a million people to have serious reaction against the vaccine.
http://www.thelocal.de/sci-tech/20090801-20969.html

Axiom
04-08-2009, 01:29 PM
Greece will vaccinate its entire population of 12 million against the H1N1 swine flu pandemic which has swept around the world in weeks, killing hundreds of people, the country's health minister said on Friday.

The Mediterranean country, which receives about 15 million tourists every year, has confirmed more than 700 swine flu cases and no deaths, but world health experts say the true number of cases globally is far higher as only a few patients get tested.

"We decided that the entire population, all citizens and residents, without any exception, will be vaccinated against the flu," Health Minister Dimitris Avramopoulos said after a ministerial meeting.

http://tvnz.co.nz/health-news/greece-vaccinate-population-swine-flu-2881876#


So not so hypothetical Igor !

Kevin Bonham
04-08-2009, 04:48 PM
I think mandatory vaccination against the thing is silly and probably completely impracticable unless it develops into a more dangerous strain. The number of reported cases is only a tiny proportion of the number who have actually had it and just working out who has had it and has not is going to be a mess.

Kevin Bonham
26-09-2009, 02:03 AM
There was a piece by Prof Peter Collignon of the Clinical School at ANU in today's Crikey subscriber email. I can't reproduce the full text of it publicly as it is copyright and apparently not on the public site but some key points are:

* The epidemic peaked and rapidly decreased after mid-July since so many people had already had it.

* The number of deaths is only a few percent of the most optimistic official projections and only a small fraction of the number of seasonal flu deaths.

* Trials of the vaccine have shown severe side effects in 1% of cases.

* As Australia is now in spring there is no need to rush into a vaccination program.

There is no reason to believe the vaccination program will be mandatory (the government would not be that stupid), but it is still going to be an utter farce. Apart from high-risk cases the participation rate may well be very low. Australia ordered 21 million doses of the thing and how many will actually be used? Will be interesting to see.

It all comes back to Mencken yet again.


The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace in a continual state of alarm (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing them with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary

Shame the conspiracy theorists are often so busy doing exactly the same thing.

Igor_Goldenberg
28-09-2009, 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by Henry Louis Mencken
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace in a continual state of alarm (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing them with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary

Might belong to a different trend, but...

Recently we took children to a movie (they chose G-force). To summarise the plot:
Trained rodents (under auspices of a good scientist) prove their right for the badges and funding by saving the world from the great danger, created by one of them.

Even though I have a feeling it was not exactly the intention of the plot writers.

ER
29-09-2009, 02:01 AM
I don't care!

StuE
01-10-2009, 01:15 AM
G'day all StuE here. I have a blog page at http://www.stuartedwards.bigblog.com.au and have alot of information regarding the swine flu vaccine. I have been researching the subject since April. My conclusion is that in the event that it becomes mandatory I would not accept the concept of any Government 'expert' trying to assert their 'authority' over my body. Vaccines today, Logan's Run tomorrow. As for the question of why anyone would ask this question when it is clear that the plan is to force everyone across the world to take it. The survey was perhaps another test put out to guage the likely level of resistance to such a move. Whilst each Country is taking a slightly different approach, like in say the UK, where they are saying that the vaccine will not be mandatory, the evidence shows that is exactly what they are preparing for. If you were wondering about why you see the subject of vaccine 'refusers' being demonized in the mind control weapon you call television, it is called predictive programming. This is what I think the plan is - Firstly the swine flu was a deliberately engineered BIOWEAPON that the W.H.O sent to Baxter as evidenced by Jane Burgermeister who has filed charges against the W.H.O for planned Genocide to achieve their depopulation agenda. The vaccine is deadlier than the swine flu. The vaccination program is going to see the virus mutate and also weaponised vaccines will cause people to drop like flies, upon which they are intending to then blame the 'vaccine refusers' and then say that they need to track the pandemic and require an rfid bracelet to track everyone. The evidence has surfaced in the USA of this, you can find many pieces of the puzzle. Don't listen to me, listen to Dr Rebecca Carley, or Rima Laibow, or Russell Blaylock or Len Horowitz. Try looking at the fluscam website (http://www.fluscam.com) or Jane Burgermeister's info here (http://www.theflucase,com)
DON'T TAKE THE VACCINE! And avoid anyone who has had it as they will be shedding the virus everywhere they go. Yes it's true the unvaccinated are at risk from the vaccinated ones, NOT the other way around as we are lead to believe.
Cheers
StuE

arosar
05-02-2010, 06:19 PM
The Lancet this week (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/feb/02/lancet-retracts-mmr-paper)retracted an 'utterly false' paper on MMR.

And, btw, I just had the shot. It's not mandatory, but it seems to be the thing over here.

AR

Garrett
05-02-2010, 06:23 PM
I meant to vote "Yes".

Capablanca-Fan
06-02-2010, 02:23 PM
I wouldn't fight towards taking it, since I have done so. I would still fight making it compulsory.

Capablanca-Fan
16-03-2017, 03:13 AM
Byron Shire’s dangerous anti-vax sentiment is catching (http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/byron-shires-dangerous-antivax-sentiment-is-catching/news-story/677ff0e573a8199fee8b2660ce2ab279)
Jane Hansen, Bulletin, 12 March 2017

The baby came into the hospital bleeding from the mouth and nose. He was only four weeks old, but he showed all the hallmarks of a Vitamin K deficiency.

It is a rare but real complication: a deficiency in the fat-soluble vitamin needed for efficient blood clotting can lead to fatal haemorrhaging. It is the reason all babies are given a Vitamin K shot at birth, but sometimes parents refuse. This little boy’s parents refused the shot.

Lismore paediatrician Dr Chris Ingall ran tests on the baby. The child was indeed deficient but it was too late to save the boy.

“One of the hardest things a paediatrician ever has to do is tell a patient their baby is going to die and in this case, the mother had refused the Vitamin K injection for her newborn just a few weeks prior,” Dr Ingall says.

“She said it can’t be Vitamin K deficiency, and I said I’m sorry but the tests show the baby is deficient,” Dr Ingall says. It was later confirmed by the coroner.

What devastated both the doctor and mother, is that the mother had been advised against the Vitamin K shot by community health nurses in Byron Bay.

What made the case worse was that the antenatal group was funded by NSW Health and it had been taken over by anti-vaccination zealots who included Vitamin K in their fertile conspiracies about Big Pharma out to harm children in pursuit of a buck.

That was seven years ago, and authorities removed the rogue midwives who no longer live in the area, but the anti-vaccination movement in the Byron Shire has become embedded in the community. Peer pressure, especially among young mothers, not to vaccinate has led to some mothers pretending they didn’t vaccinate their kids just to fit in.

It’s the birthplace of the anti-vaccine movement. The Australian Vaccination Network was set up there in Bangalow in the 1990s.

The shire now has the lowest immunisation rates in Australia. According to the latest figures, only half of all five-year-olds are vaccinated in Mullumbimby and only 60 per cent are in nearby Byron Bay.

Since the Aquarius festival in the 1970s, the shire has embraced its counter-culture image and has become a mecca for alternative, nature-loving types who not only distrust mainstream everything, but embrace the burgeoning “Big Nature” industry that has set up around them to cater to every alternative whim.

Kaitlin
16-03-2017, 04:50 AM
Since the Aquarius festival in the 1970s, the shire has embraced its counter-culture image and has become a mecca for alternative, nature-loving types who not only distrust mainstream everything, but embrace the burgeoning “Big Nature” industry that has set up around them to cater to every alternative whim.


Communes shouldn't reject Science because Science is Nature.

Byron is just a little Capitalist China :(

Adamski
16-03-2017, 07:25 AM
Pauline Hanson here, not known for carefully researched views, said some dumb Amti Vax things before the Western Australian state election. I think they cost her ONP votes.

Desmond
16-03-2017, 11:08 AM
That was seven years ago, and authorities removed the rogue midwives who no longer live in the area,..


I hope they were charged with something.

Kaitlin
16-03-2017, 01:11 PM
That was seven years ago, and authorities removed the rogue midwives who no longer live in the area,..


I hope they were charged with something.

Nope .. they are gathering on the boarders waiting to launch another skirmish :eek:

idledim
16-03-2017, 03:38 PM
Nope .. they are gathering on the boarders waiting to launch another skirmish :eek:

Better they should gather on the day boys!

Capablanca-Fan
13-07-2017, 12:11 AM
Measles 'tragedy' kills 35 across Europe (http://www.bbc.com/news/health-40568017)
By James Gallagher
Health and science reporter, BBC News website

Dr Zsuzsanna Jakab, the WHO regional director for Europe, said: "Every death or disability caused by this vaccine-preventable disease is an unacceptable tragedy.
"We are very concerned that although a safe, effective and affordable vaccine is available, measles remains a leading cause of death among children worldwide, and unfortunately Europe is not spared.
"I urge all endemic countries to take urgent measures to stop transmission of measles within their borders, and all countries that have already achieved this to keep up their guard and sustain high immunisation coverage."

Measles is highly contagious, but vaccinating 95% of the population should prevent it spreading.

Germany is looking at tightening the law on immunisations.

And the government in Italy is pushing for children to be vaccinated against 12 common illnesses before they can enrol for state-run schools.

Prime Minister Paolo Gentiloni blamed a decrease in vaccinations in part on a "spread of anti-scientific theories".

A lingering false belief that the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) jab causes autism is largely to blame, despite the claims being disproven and the doctor who made them being struck off.