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ER
21-07-2009, 01:26 PM
I find it infuriating, vulgar and unsportsmanlike!
Canberra juniors (and some idiotic adults of the unwashed kind) have made a habit of it! Actually most of them do it and get away with it due to the "oh it's ok don't make a big deal out of it!" attitude of the arbiter who received my complaints twice!
The blatantly rude procedure goes as follows:
Player has the move!
Puts his (her) piece somewhere in the borderline of four adjucent squares, dropping a few other pieces and pawns in the way, presses his (her) clock, then in his (her) own leisure adjusts the piece (s) on your time! Shame!
Do that in the Box Hill Chess Club and you have to deal with the arbiter in a way that you remember for life!
I want Garvin's opinion on this please!

Bill Gletsos
21-07-2009, 03:05 PM
I find it infuriating, vulgar and unsportsmanlike!
Canberra juniors (and some idiotic adults of the unwashed kind) have made a habit of it! Actually most of them do it and get away with it due to the "oh it's ok don't make a big deal out of it!" attitude of the arbiter who received my complaints twice!
The blatantly rude procedure goes as follows:
Player has the move!
Puts his (her) piece somewhere in the borderline of four adjucent squares, dropping a few other pieces and pawns in the way, presses his (her) clock, then in his (her) own leisure adjusts the piece (s) on your time! Shame!
Do that in the Box Hill Chess Club and you have to deal with the arbiter in a way that you remember for life!
I want Garvin's opinion on this please!It is against the rules and the arbiter who told you "dont make a big deal about it" is simply wrong.

It is clear from Article 4.2 that only the player having the move can adjust the pieces.

The offending player at the very least should be warned, possibly imposed with a time penalty and additional time awarded to his opponent.
Repeat offenders either in the one game or over multiple games could well have their game declared lost.

Kevin Bonham
21-07-2009, 03:08 PM
An arbiter letting a player off on this one because they are a junior and it's no big deal is not doing that player any favours. The player may become entrenched in the habit and have trouble breaking out of it when they start playing in tournaments where it is better regulated.

It really shouldn't be a big deal for an arbiter to stop a junior's clock and politely explain to the junior that when they are adjusting pieces they need to do so before pressing the clock, and ditto if they knock any pieces over. Many juniors play at a zillion moves an hour anyway and it is not as if they are going to lose on time as a result of following the proper procedure.

I would probably apply a small time penalty after a couple of warnings for this one - it's a minor offence but players should still get it right.

ER
21-07-2009, 09:09 PM
Thanks Bill and Kev! Very important advice!

Axiom
21-07-2009, 10:00 PM
I find it infuriating, vulgar and unsportsmanlike!
Canberra juniors (and some idiotic adults of the unwashed kind) have made a habit of it! Actually most of them do it and get away with it due to the "oh it's ok don't make a big deal out of it!" attitude of the arbiter who received my complaints twice!
The blatantly rude procedure goes as follows:
Player has the move!
Puts his (her) piece somewhere in the borderline of four adjucent squares, dropping a few other pieces and pawns in the way, presses his (her) clock, then in his (her) own leisure adjusts the piece (s) on your time! Shame!
Do that in the Box Hill Chess Club and you have to deal with the arbiter in a way that you remember for life!
I want Garvin's opinion on this please!
Livid absolutely livid , cannot currently contain myself , .......when i've calmed down, i hope to make an explosive contribution to this matter !

Capablanca-Fan
22-07-2009, 05:49 AM
Same goes for draw offers on the opponent's time.

Desmond
22-07-2009, 10:00 AM
Same goes for draw offers on the opponent's time.Often unavoidable, if the opponent is not at the board when you move.

Garvinator
22-07-2009, 10:25 AM
I want Garvin's opinion on this please!
Why do you want my opinion specifically?

Rincewind
22-07-2009, 10:27 AM
Often unavoidable, if the opponent is not at the board when you move.

True but then one should inform the opponent as soon as is practical. I think Jono was referring to the case where both players are at the board, one player moves, clocks and then as an after thought some time late offers a draw.

To my way of thinking the draw offer is a part of the move so once when one clocks it is too late to change the move and it is also too late to append the move with a draw offer.

Rincewind
22-07-2009, 10:28 AM
Why do you want my opinion specifically?

Yeah I thought it was strange too. Go figure. :P ;)

Basil
22-07-2009, 10:28 AM
Why do you want my opinion specifically?
Oh just answer him and stop being an old woman!

Garvinator
22-07-2009, 11:00 AM
Oh just answer him and stop being an old woman!
How about I give him an old womans answer :P

Kevin Bonham
22-07-2009, 12:21 PM
Why do you want my opinion specifically?

Probably because he hoped it would be entertainingly abusive towards those who practiced the heinous sin he referred to.

He is probably hoping for images of perpetrators hanging in rows with porcupine quills driven under their fingernails and people beating them with rotten eels or something.

Garvinator
22-07-2009, 12:29 PM
Probably because he hoped it would be entertainingly abusive towards those who practiced the heinous sin he referred to.

He is probably hoping for images of perpetrators hanging in rows with porcupine quills driven under their fingernails and people beating them with rotten eels or something.
:hmm: :hmm: seems that my 'reputation' proceeds me, but I think the above quote is a bit of an over-statement :lol:

ER
22-07-2009, 02:10 PM
Why do you want my opinion specifically?
Why not?
Actually, because I have come to the conclusion that you are one of the more (if not the) most efficient officials I have played under!


Yeah I thought it was strange too. Go figure.

Oh no it would be stranger to trust your machine for rating calculations! :hand:

Rincewind
22-07-2009, 02:16 PM
Oh no it would be stranger to trust your machine for rating calculations! :hand:

Actually the calculations are programmed in jscript and hence they are performed on your machine. :lol:

Ian CCC
22-07-2009, 09:12 PM
Question:

If my opponent knocks over pieces or misplaces pieces when making a move and presses the clock, am I entitled to press the clock immediately without making a move and ask my opponent to adjust the pieces in his/her own time?

The grounds for this being that my opponent must re-establish the position in his/her own time (FIDE Laws Article 7.3).

CameronD
22-07-2009, 10:31 PM
Question:

If my opponent knocks over pieces or misplaces pieces when making a move and presses the clock, am I entitled to press the clock immediately without making a move and ask my opponent to adjust the pieces in his/her own time?

The grounds for this being that my opponent must re-establish the position in his/her own time (FIDE Laws Article 7.3).

but that would then make the move counter incorrect.

I think this wa raised a few months ago in some tournament. I think they said you have to stop the clock and get the arbiter by memory.

Ian CCC
22-07-2009, 11:48 PM
but that would then make the move counter incorrect.

I think this wa raised a few months ago in some tournament. I think they said you have to stop the clock and get the arbiter by memory.

I think in most long play situations no-one would bother calling an arbiter unless the opponent was doing this repeatedly.

I think this situation is most likely to be a problem in quick-play finishes, rapid play or blitz where the move counter is not relevant. For example, both players may have a few seconds left on the clock. Player A knocks over pieces while making a move. Player B stops the clock and tries to attract attention of the arbiter. In the mean time, Player A studies the position looking for resources to create problems for opponent. Should the arbiter impose some penalty and, if so, what would it be? Surely it would be simpler just to press the clock and ask the opponent to pick-up the pieces in their own time. But is it legal to do so?

Bill Gletsos
22-07-2009, 11:54 PM
but that would then make the move counter incorrect.Not really an issue unless you are playiong xx moves in yy minutes. It is the adding of any increment that would be the problem.

I think this wa raised a few months ago in some tournament. I think they said you have to stop the clock and get the arbiter by memory.Especially true if the time control involves increments.

Capablanca-Fan
24-07-2009, 06:49 AM
True but then one should inform the opponent as soon as is practical. I think Jono was referring to the case where both players are at the board, one player moves, clocks and then as an after thought some time late offers a draw.

To my way of thinking the draw offer is a part of the move so once when one clocks it is too late to change the move and it is also too late to append the move with a draw offer.
All correct.

Garvinator
24-07-2009, 05:23 PM
To my way of thinking the draw offer is a part of the move so once when one clocks it is too late to change the move and it is also too late to append the move with a draw offer.

Article 9: The drawn game

9.1 a. The rules of a competition may specify that players cannot agree to a draw, whether in less than a specified number of moves or at all, without the consent of the arbiter.

b. If the rules of a competition allow a draw agreement the following apply:

(1) A player wishing to offer a draw shall do so after having made a move on the chessboard and before stopping his clock and starting the opponent’s clock.
An offer at any other time during play is still valid but Article 12.6 must be considered. No conditions can be attached to the offer. In both cases the offer cannot be withdrawn and remains valid until the opponent accepts it, rejects it orally, rejects it by touching a piece with the intention of moving or capturing it, or the game is concluded in some other way.

(2) The offer of a draw shall be noted by each player on his scoresheet with a symbol. (See Appendix C.13) (3) A claim of a draw under Article 9.2, 9.3 or 10.2 shall be considered to be an offer of a draw.


12.6 It is forbidden to distract or annoy the opponent in any manner whatsoever. This includes unreasonable claims, unreasonable offers of a draw or the introduction of a source of noise into the playing area.So, after all that, it is legal to offer a draw while it is your opponents turn, but if you do so, the opponent could make an appeal if they feel distracted.

Rincewind
24-07-2009, 05:55 PM
So, after all that, it is legal to offer a draw while it is your opponents turn, but if you do so, the opponent could make an appeal if they feel distracted.

I agree that it is binding, but saying it is legal is a bit on the edge. As you say, such an offer would probably transgress 12.6. Calling an action which most likely breaks a law of chess "legal" is something I would avoid.

To my way of thinking, the provision of article 9.1 is to ensure that even if a player offers a draw at a less than appropriate time, the offer is binding in the same way as any other draw offer is. This prevents the following scenario:

Player A offers a draw while Player B has the move.
Player B complains about the distraction.
The complaint provokes Player A to withdraw the offer or claim it is not binding since the timing offended Player B.

Law 9.1 says explicitly that it is too late. Player B is perfectly within their rights to complain about the timing and still ponder the draw offer at their leisure and accept or decline it as they see fit.

Thunderspirit
24-07-2009, 06:10 PM
I find it infuriating, vulgar and unsportsmanlike!
Canberra juniors (and some idiotic adults of the unwashed kind) have made a habit of it! Actually most of them do it and get away with it due to the "oh it's ok don't make a big deal out of it!" attitude of the arbiter who received my complaints twice!
The blatantly rude procedure goes as follows:
Player has the move!
Puts his (her) piece somewhere in the borderline of four adjucent squares, dropping a few other pieces and pawns in the way, presses his (her) clock, then in his (her) own leisure adjusts the piece (s) on your time! Shame!
Do that in the Box Hill Chess Club and you have to deal with the arbiter in a way that you remember for life!
I want Garvin's opinion on this please!

Wow, someone seems to have their G-String seriously twisted...

I have in the past been quite critical of some of the behaviour of ACT Junior's and ACT Junior Chess generally though I'm not sure that this problem in juniors is limited to the ACT. I will raise it next time I see Charles Bishop though.

Certainally adjusting in your opponent's time is poor chess etiquette, but I wouldn't go anywhere near as far as vulgar and infuriating. In the first instance, I would ask my opponent to adjust his/her pieces in their time, if it happened again, I would seek an arbiter as it of course part of their job description to see that the game be played in as much as possible an ethos that develops the game. If it is such an issue you could see the aribter on the first offence. On a slightly different issue, I've always seen my role as arbiter particular to foster good etiquette in juniors, as if any problems aren't corrected when players are young, it can define them later on. I see this as less of a duty with older players (especially those whose original chess culture isn't Australian.) An aribter's role is not to run a creche for adults.

On draw offers, it's also poor etiquette, but as a player I see the draw offer here as weakness rather than a distraction. It's an after thought, "Maybe he'll take the draw?" If it's an issue see the DOP.

As for wanting Garvin's advice specifically on any do with aribtering or organising is beyond me. If I understand your message you play at Box Hill, this means you live in Melbourne. Gary Bekker is much better source of knowledge. If you want a BB answer, I'd talk to Bill or Kevin before Garvin.

Miranda
24-07-2009, 06:29 PM
I don't mind that much about opponents adjusting pieces on my time (obviously as long as it's not an unreasonable amount), however draw offers on my time can be rather irritating. What I find most annoying is when the opponent offers a draw and puts their hand out over the board. The only real solution is to say "I'll think about it" although it will usually distract others around you, and if you shake your head to attempting indicate that they should put their hand down they assume you're saying no.

CameronD
24-07-2009, 07:11 PM
I don't mind that much about opponents adjusting pieces on my time (obviously as long as it's not an unreasonable amount), however draw offers on my time can be rather irritating. What I find most annoying is when the opponent offers a draw and puts their hand out over the board. The only real solution is to say "I'll think about it" although it will usually distract others around you, and if you shake your head to attempting indicate that they should put their hand down they assume you're saying no.

I would disregard their hand and leave them looking like an idiot.

When offered draw, i can spend up to 30 minutes thinking about it looking for a tactic or winning plan before accepting. Theres no time limit, so you may as well use your clock to search for something before accepting.

Miranda
24-07-2009, 08:23 PM
I would disregard their hand and leave them looking like an idiot.

When offered draw, i can spend up to 30 minutes thinking about it looking for a tactic or winning plan before accepting. Theres no time limit, so you may as well use your clock to search for something before accepting.
True, but it is difficult to see the board with their hand outstretched over it....

Axiom
24-07-2009, 08:51 PM
True, but it is difficult to see the board with their hand outstretched over it....
i agree Miranda, that is terrible behaviour .
but don't hesitate to verbalise your intentions re. the draw offer ... a quick sentence shouldn't distract near by players.

ER
25-07-2009, 12:52 AM
Wow, someone seems to have their G-String seriously twisted...
Yeah it's obviously stuck somewhere b/n your proctus and your mouth!