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Basil
08-07-2009, 09:43 PM
This one's a cracker! Well certainly a hed-fudge anyway. Let's go.

Black has just played 36...Bd4 (from e5), preparing 37...Qg3+ winning?!?!?!?

3r4/2q5/2P1pk1p/p1Q2pp1/3b4/5P1P/P1RB1P2/6K1 w - - 8 36

White fails to see the threat (as told by white in the aftermath) and plays 37.Bxa5. Upon 37...Qg3+ (winning white's queen), white resigns.

Did white resign prematurely? No engines please. Happy days ;)

Kevin Bonham
08-07-2009, 09:54 PM
White most likely did resign prematurely since although black really does get the queen (38.K moves Qxh3+ and black's queen is no longer attacked), upon taking the queen he appears to lose rook and bishop to Bxd8+ plus Rxc5. Also white's c-pawn looks dangerous. Even without being certain that black has no comeback (and I can't see one yet) it is premature to resign the position while such possibilities are still on the board/

Basil
08-07-2009, 09:59 PM
Thanks for kicking off Kev. And a good place to start. That's what white realised straight after the game and before the players had left the board.

Then ... *ahem*

Garvinator
08-07-2009, 10:23 PM
Pedant alert here.

Is this thread not more in the area of analysis rather than assessment? If so, then it should be- So you think you can analysis 01 ;)

Basil
08-07-2009, 10:26 PM
Pedant alert here.

Is this thread not more in the area of analysis rather than assessment? If so, then it should be- So you think you can analysis 01 ;)
Pedant call accepted! However your point is worth addressing and so I could reasonably ask - in the diagrammed position, which side is better! :eek: Frankly I think the position is beyond human assessment.
The interesting part is that
a) white appears to be winning cold, then
b) black appears to have a total refutation, then

....

kjenhager
08-07-2009, 10:27 PM
Pedant alert here.

Is this thread not more in the area of analysis rather than assessment? If so, then it should be- So you think you can analysis 01 ;)
the 1001st death ? :uhoh:

Kevin Bonham
08-07-2009, 10:38 PM
Then ... *ahem*

Of course the bishop can interpose after Bxd8+ (doh!) but then white has c7. But then black might win the rook with a queen check on e1d1, so white had to play Kf1 not Kh1 so that black could not take with check on f3

Igor_Goldenberg
08-07-2009, 10:59 PM
R U sure?
How can black check on e1? After Be7 white can exchange the bishop and play c7. black has few checks (and might even swap queens in some variations!), but white should eventually prevail

Basil
08-07-2009, 11:01 PM
R U sure?
Igor I have had the advantage of plugging the game into a box since your excellent suggested continuation at Freytag.

Igor_Goldenberg
08-07-2009, 11:04 PM
I referred to Kevin's post, didn't want to quote as white becomes visible.

Kevin Bonham
08-07-2009, 11:12 PM
I referred to Kevin's post, didn't want to quote as white becomes visible.

Sorry, I meant d1 not e1.

Igor_Goldenberg
09-07-2009, 10:05 AM
How can black get to d1?

Kevin Bonham
09-07-2009, 09:11 PM
37...Qg3+ 38.Kh1?? Qxf3+ 39.Kg1 Bxc5 40.Bxd8+ Be7 41.c7 Qd1+ winning rook and game.

That is why white has to play 38.Kf1 not 38.Kh1

ER
09-07-2009, 10:02 PM
Wow!!! great analysis!!!!
Actually my first thought was Kh1?? thinking that Black would go for a draw!

Igor_Goldenberg
09-07-2009, 11:10 PM
I didn't realised Kh1 was even considered

Basil
10-07-2009, 02:19 AM
Permission to type in black now. The game has been up for long enough. And we're over the page.

MichaelBaron
10-07-2009, 09:51 AM
;)

Capablanca-Fan
12-07-2009, 04:54 AM
This is sharp enough that an engine would be essential for best results, but I haven't consulted one for this yet.

Jesper Norgaard
16-07-2009, 05:08 PM
Did white resign prematurely? No engines please. Happy days ;)

I hope by this time some engine output is Okay. The short answer is that definitely it was a bad decision to resign, 'cause it is Black that must fight for a draw! However even though I was able to get a winning position with White against old chess program, it was not convincing. Black has to find some accurate resources though.


37.Bxa5 Qg3+ 38.Kf1 Qxh3+ 39.Ke2 Bxc5 40.Bxd8+ Kf7! Important to avoid a later Qxe6+ 41.c7! It seems that [41.Rxc5 g4 42.Rc3 gxf3+ 43.Rxf3 Qg4 44.c7 Qe4+] is perpetual 41...g4 42.Rc3 gxf3+ 43.Rxf3 Qg4 44.c8=Q Qc4+! [I got some winning chances against program after 44....Qe4+ 45.Re3 Bxe3?] 45.Kd1 [There is perpetual check after 45.Rd3 Qc2+ 46.Rd2 Qe4+ followed by Qh1+ or Qb1+] 45...Qd5+! [It seems that 45...Qf1+? 46.Kd2! Bb4+ 47.Kc2 Qe2+ 48.Kb3 Qxf3+ 49.Kxb4 is losing with the free a-pawn and Queen and Bishop defending against the Black pawns] 46.Ke1 Qe4+! 47.Re3 Bxe3 48.Qd7+ and White has perpetual check but nothing more

Basil
16-07-2009, 05:21 PM
I hope by this time some engine output is Okay.
Indeed! Fire away.


The short answer is that definitely it was a bad decision to resign
Yup, as Kevin nailed very early on. I'm almost certain I would have lost with the white pieces OTB.

Igor_Goldenberg
17-07-2009, 10:15 AM
I hope by this time some engine output is Okay. The short answer is that definitely it was a bad decision to resign, 'cause it is Black that must fight for a draw! However even though I was able to get a winning position with White against old chess program, it was not convincing. Black has to find some accurate resources though.


37.Bxa5 Qg3+ 38.Kf1 Qxh3+ 39.Ke2 Bxc5 40.Bxd8+ Kf7! Important to avoid a later Qxe6+ 41.c7! It seems that [41.Rxc5 g4 42.Rc3 gxf3+ 43.Rxf3 Qg4 44.c7 Qe4+] is perpetual 41...g4 42.Rc3 gxf3+ 43.Rxf3 Qg4 44.c8=Q Qc4+! [I got some winning chances against program after 44....Qe4+ 45.Re3 Bxe3?] 45.Kd1 [There is perpetual check after 45.Rd3 Qc2+ 46.Rd2 Qe4+ followed by Qh1+ or Qb1+] 45...Qd5+! [It seems that 45...Qf1+? 46.Kd2! Bb4+ 47.Kc2 Qe2+ 48.Kb3 Qxf3+ 49.Kxb4 is losing with the free a-pawn and Queen and Bishop defending against the Black pawns] 46.Ke1 Qe4+! 47.Re3 Bxe3 48.Qd7+ and White has perpetual check but nothing more

What happens after 42.c8Q ?

Jesper Norgaard
17-07-2009, 12:35 PM
What happens after 42.c8Q ?
Perpetual check with 42...Qxf3+ 43.Kd2 (42.Kf1 Qh1+ =; 42.Ke1 Bb4+ 43.Rd2 Qh1+ 44.Ke2 Qf3+ etc.) 43...Qxf2+ 44.Kc1 Qe1+ 45.Kb2 Qb4+ unless of course White insists on something stupid 44.Kc3?? Qd4+ 45.Kb3 Qb4+ checkmate! Since Gunner said he was sure he would have lost if he had continued with White, maybe that is what he meant? :owned:

Kevin Bonham
17-07-2009, 09:31 PM
I love it when you plug one of these incredibly wild unclear-looking positions into a computer and it spits back 0.00.