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Kevin Bonham
23-07-2004, 03:10 AM
Thought I'd copy the Obst-Morris game from the Qld Juniors as featured in the Bulletin up here, for the very unusual finish with Q+R knocking over Q+Q. (Actually it is the Black K that gets knocked over while the two poor queens can do nothing.)

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 3.f4 e6 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.g3 Nf6 6.Bg2 Be7 7.0-0 d5 8.d3 a6 9.h3 b5 10.Ne5 Bb7 11.Nxc6 Bxc6 12.e5 Nd7 13.g4 Qb6 14.Ne2 d4 15.Ng3 Bxg2 16.Kxg2 c4 17.Qf3 Rc8 18.Ne4 Nc5 19.f5 cxd3 20.cxd3 Nxe4 21.Qxe4 Rc2+ 22.Kg1 Qc6 23.Qxc6+ Rxc6 24.f6 gxf6 25.exf6 Bd6 26.Bf4 Kd7 27.Bxd6 Kxd6 28.Rf2 Rhc8 29.Kg2 Rc2 30.Raf1 Rxf2+ 31.Rxf2 Rc1 32.Kg3 Rd1 33.Rf3 Rd2 34.b3 Rxa2 35.Kh4 Ra3 36.Kg5 Rxb3 37.Kh6 a5 38.Kg7 a4 39.Kxf7 a3 40.Rf1 Rb2 41.Kg7 Rc2 42.f7 Rc7 43.Kh6 Rc8 44.f8=Q+ Rxf8 45.Rxf8 b4 46.Ra8 e5 47.Kxh7 e4 48.dxe4 d3 49.g5 d2 50.Rd8+ Ke5 51.g6 a2 52.g7 a1=Q 53.g8=Q d1=Q 54.Qg5+ Kxe4 55.Qh4+ Ke5 56.Qe7+ Kf4 57.Rf8+ Kg3 58.Qe3+ Kh4 59.Rf4+ Kg5 60.Qg3+ 1-0

Very messy and fun ending, but doesn't 55...Ke3 draw? At first I was sure it did, but actually it looks like White still wins, here's how:

56.Re8+ Kf3! (others lose immediately or shorten the resistance) 57.Qe4+ Kg3 (...Kf2 gets mated) 58.Rg8+ Kf2 59.Qg2+ Ke3 60.Re8+ Kd3 (...Kd4 is the same) 61.Qe4+ Kc3 62.Rc8+ Kd2 (...Kb3 63.Qc4+ Ka3 64.Ra8+ Kb2 65.Qxb4+ Kc2 66.Qe4+ Kb3 67.Rb8+ Kc3 68.Rc8+ Kb2 {...Kd2 69.Rd8+ Kc3 70.Qc6+ Kb2 71.Rb8+ Qb3 72.Qf6+ +-} 69.Qb4+ Qb3 70.Qd2+ Ka3 71.Ra8+ Qa4 72.Qe3+ +-) 63.Qxb4+ Kd3 64.Rd8+ Ke3 65.Re8+ Kf2 66.Qh4+ Kg2 67.Rg8+ Kf1 68.Qf4+ Ke2 69.Re8+ Kd3 70.Rd8+ Kc2 71.Qc4+ +- (or 70...Ke2 71.Qg4+ +-).

Interesting that there are wins there but they are so deep in. (The computer found all these, but it's old and slow and I had to know how to prod it.)

[EDIT nine years later: see posts below, apparently it is a draw after all!]

Trent Parker
23-07-2004, 03:20 AM
:clap:

JGB
23-07-2004, 03:24 AM
I also liked it. 2 queens yeah but they are sure pretty useless. As black I would be tempted to get a check in first before bringing on the 2nd Queen.

Kevin Bonham
23-07-2004, 03:38 AM
Trent's claps were for the game, by the way, not my analysis - I edited that in a bit later. :lol:

Kevin Bonham
23-07-2004, 04:01 AM
I also liked it. 2 queens yeah but they are sure pretty useless. As black I would be tempted to get a check in first before bringing on the 2nd Queen.

Sadly he can't do it - the only check on the board allows a game winning queen-swap.

As far as I can tell this was won for White all the way from when Black played 40...Rb2. 40...a2 looks better though I'm not claiming it as a definite draw. White could have won more simply (given how messy the ...Qe3 line is) by just playing 51.Rxd2 when White has Q+R for Q and Black's checks run out very fast indeed, but who's complaining? To hold a won position of any kind in an ending as messy as this for so long is good work. :clap:

The rook ending's very rich in lines for several moves. I think that 37...Rc3 is a more useful move than 37...a5 because it moves the rook to a square where it eyes off c7 and interference with White's pawn push while acheiving the same thing in terms of getting a quick queen for Black (since b5 is already on the 5th rank). If 37...Rc3 doesn't win it at least looks like an advantage for Black.

Entertaining stuff!

Rincewind
23-07-2004, 08:12 AM
Did I read a article a few months ago by Ian Rogers in Australian Chess, the theme of which was players losing with multiple queens? From memory there were a number of example games.

Capablanca-Fan
12-05-2013, 03:57 PM
Did I read a article a few months ago by Ian Rogers in Australian Chess, the theme of which was players losing with multiple queens? From memory there were a number of example games.
Probably the best known is Anatoly Karpov vs Viktor Korchnoi, Dortmund, Cat.16 1994 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1038811). Korchnoi won that game because he had learned from a previous game where he had drawn with a weaker player despite obtaining two queens: Viktor Korchnoi vs Eugenio Maciel German, Stockholm Interzonal (1962) (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1081452). Korchnoi explained:

"During the analysis, I discovered something very remarkable: the board is simply too small for two Queens of the same color. They only get in each other's way. I realize that this might sound stupid, but I fully mean it. The advantage is much less than one would expect by counting material."
Another example is Aron G Reshko vs Vadim Z Faibisovich, Leningrad 1969 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1628143), where White has only two minors for Q, but the pair of extra Qs means he has the advantage. Again, the board is too small for two Qs.

Kevin Bonham
12-05-2013, 04:07 PM
Two queens can also get in their own king's way as per this sad example (http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?p=156992#post156992) (may need to scroll down) from one of my casual games.

Agent Smith
12-05-2013, 07:04 PM
Beautiful :)
8/8/5p2/6k1/6Pq/5QK1/6QP/8 w - - 7 57

moremover
12-05-2013, 10:16 PM
to Kevin Bonham :
... your CONTENTION, that white wins after the second black queen is on the board with 53.g8Q d1Q is NOT TRUE:hand: , because the position is ONLY REMIS:) . Sorry, some moves you write here for black king after move 53. aren't correct (for example see your move 62. and 63.)

kindly regards from Germany

Kevin Bonham
12-05-2013, 10:26 PM
to Kevin Bonham :
... your CONTENTION, that white wins after the second black queen is on the board with 53.g8Q d1Q is NOT TRUE:hand: , because the position is ONLY REMIS:) . Sorry, some moves you write here for black king after move 53. aren't correct (for example see your move 62. and 63.)

It's only a draw after all? That analysis was done close to 10 years ago using weaker software; I'll check it.

Kevin Bonham
12-05-2013, 11:25 PM
A problem seems to be that there are quite a few positions where the act of eventually winning one queen allows the other to force perpetual.

For instance this:

R7/6K1/8/8/4q3/7P/2k5/Q7 b - - 0 1

...with black to move, is a tablebase draw!

Thanks moremover!

moremover
13-05-2013, 12:48 AM
to Kevin Bonham :
... now you understand :clap: the position with the 2 black queens and we can go to a little bit harder chess problem :

[duplicate, deleted]