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  1. #1
    CC resident nutcase Trent Parker's Avatar
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    Player not writing down moves

    Hi Arbiters

    I just want to confirm something.

    In my opinion if a player refuses to write down the moves a players time in a 1hr + 10 sec/move tournament should be 5minutes as the laws of chess specifically state that a player may cease to write the moves down if the time goes under 5minutes.

    Is this correct?

  2. #2
    . eclectic's Avatar
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    see article 8.4 of the Laws of Chess
    .

  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trent Parker
    Hi Arbiters

    I just want to confirm something.

    In my opinion if a player refuses to write down the moves a players time in a 1hr + 10 sec/move tournament should be 5minutes as the laws of chess specifically state that a player may cease to write the moves down if the time goes under 5minutes.

    Is this correct?
    The basic provision is Art. 8.1 requiring a player to keep score (see also Art 8.4 as mentioned by Eclectic). If the player has more than 5 minutes left on his/her clock and refuses to keep score, the proper course is for the opponent to stop the clocks and call the arbiter to resolve the matter although, as is often the case, the FIDE Laws could be better drafted on this point.

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  4. #4
    CC resident nutcase Trent Parker's Avatar
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    I re clarify.

    A player will not write down the moves from the start of the game rather than at a point in the game.

  5. #5
    . eclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trent Parker
    I re clarify.

    A player will not write down the moves from the start of the game rather than at a point in the game.
    i think if a person cannot write the moves down due to a disability then they must arrange for a proxy to do it for them

    i'm not sure but i no longer think there is any provision for an exemption on religious grounds but i might get corrected on that matter
    .

  6. #6
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trent Parker
    Hi Arbiters

    I just want to confirm something.

    In my opinion if a player refuses to write down the moves a players time in a 1hr + 10 sec/move tournament should be 5minutes as the laws of chess specifically state that a player may cease to write the moves down if the time goes under 5minutes.

    Is this correct?
    A player who refuses to write down the moves from the start of the game, after a few warnings should simply be ruled to have lost the game.

    I would usually act as follows:

    * tell the player they must write the moves down
    * if they continue not writing the moves down, penalise them 5 minutes, tell them they must write the moves down, and tell them they will lose the game if they do not write moves down
    * if they still continue not writing moves down, they lose the game

    If the player wants to play from 5 minutes without writing their moves down they have the option of sitting there without making a move until their clock goes below 5 minutes (this would be very boring for all concerned.)

    As eclectic says, if a player has a disability then ideally an assistant should score for them. Sometimes in club situations this is not possible, and in these cases what I have usually done is waive the requirement to score, but deduct 10 minutes from the non-scoring player's clock at the start of the game.

    Some disabilities may be non-obvious, eg a player might be dyslexic.

  7. #7
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eclectic
    i'm not sure but i no longer think there is any provision for an exemption on religious grounds but i might get corrected on that matter
    The current laws just refer to a player being "unable" to write moves down.

    I'll give concessions to players even if they are able to write the moves down but can only do so slowly because of some condition or other (eg some arthritic conditions or hand injuries).

  8. #8
    . eclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    If the player wants to play from 5 minutes without writing their moves down they have the option of sitting there without making a move until their clock goes below 5 minutes (this would be very boring for all concerned.)
    i suspect such a player would be required to record their first move as available time would be based on how much time was on their clock when they were initially "on the move"
    .

  9. #9
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eclectic
    i suspect such a player would be required to record their first move as available time would be based on how much time was on their clock when they were initially "on the move"
    Depends when the first move was made. Once a player has less than five minutes left "he is not obliged to meet the requirements of Article 8.1". So if the player makes their first move with less than five minutes on their clock, they do not have to write that move down.

    Something that is not clear to me (and I'd be interested to know if any other arbiter knows of a ruling on it) is what happens if:

    * A player makes a move with more than 5 minutes remaining
    * The player makes their next move with less than 5 minutes remaining
    * The player does not record either of these moves.

    Such a player might argue that 8.1 only requires them to write their move down before making another, but that once their time fell below 5 mins they became exempt from this requirement.

    There is no mention of time available when "on the move" in any of the relevant Laws. The time constraint applies to the scoring of previous moves.

  10. #10
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    My case

    I had a most unpleasant experience once with my opponent not only failing to record his moves (having plenty of time on his clock) but trying to blitz me as well.
    I called the arbiter who just stopped the clocks and asked him to copy the moves from my scoresheet and continue according to the rules. He did it for a couple of moves then he went back to his old tactics. The arbiter used the same system of fixing the problem and I went on getting blitzed and providing secretarial services to my opponent.
    Unfortunately, as in other cases, it comes down to Club policies which in turn are dictated by financial pressure. An extra entry is an extra entry regardless of the ability/willingness of the player to respect the rules.
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  11. #11
    . eclectic's Avatar
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    no warnings ... scoresheet not up to date ... YOU LOSE

    the key word JaK ... it's a TACTIC and often a deliberate one at that.

    the sooner arbiters apply the same rules to not writing moves as to being late (from july 1) or having mobiles go off the better!!
    .

  12. #12
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justaknight
    I had a most unpleasant experience once with my opponent not only failing to record his moves (having plenty of time on his clock) but trying to blitz me as well.
    I called the arbiter who just stopped the clocks and asked him to copy the moves from my scoresheet and continue according to the rules. He did it for a couple of moves then he went back to his old tactics. The arbiter used the same system of fixing the problem and I went on getting blitzed and providing secretarial services to my opponent.
    Unfortunately, as in other cases, it comes down to Club policies which in turn are dictated by financial pressure. An extra entry is an extra entry regardless of the ability/willingness of the player to respect the rules.
    Shame. What you needed there is a Garvinator or Duggan Trashinerator - both would have fixled* the problem. Chasing a lousy buck is the wrong way to promote the long-term goals of the game and the club - and indeed the reputation of the weak bastard in charge of letting you down and rewarding poor show.

    *Copyright TSN
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  13. #13
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justaknight
    I had a most unpleasant experience once with my opponent not only failing to record his moves (having plenty of time on his clock) but trying to blitz me as well.
    Had a chuckle at Gunner's reply because it is directly in line with how I was going to reply to this situation
    I called the arbiter who just stopped the clocks and asked him to copy the moves from my scoresheet and continue according to the rules.
    Point 1. You should have stopped the clocks hehe. Now on to the serious stuff.

    So I take it the arbiter just gave the player a 'casual' warning.

    In my opinion the arbiter should have made one of two penalty decisions, a) made the player catch up his score sheet on his own time (with the clock running) or (b) allowed the player to catch up the score sheet and then apply a fixed time penalty.

    All this being done with the arbiter watching the player catch up the score sheet and the arbiter keeping a close eye on the rest of the game.

    He did it for a couple of moves then he went back to his old tactics. The arbiter used the same system of fixing the problem and I went on getting blitzed and providing secretarial services to my opponent.
    I think this is where your mistake was/is. During the game, you needed to be more forceful in your protests.

    The player had been given a casual warning and it had no effect, so you needed to point this out and make an issue out of this with the arbiter and make a scene if necessary. Sometimes this is the only way to get action. Path of least resistance and all that stuff.

    Of course it is easy for us to post on a bulletin board and say all this, but really nothing is achieved by staying quiet and feeling like you got robbed. Nothing can be done about it after the game is over. The first thing any decent arbiter will tell you is, you should have said something about it during the game.

    Unfortunately, as in other cases, it comes down to Club policies which in turn are dictated by financial pressure. An extra entry is an extra entry regardless of the ability/willingness of the player to respect the rules.
    Players who break the laws of chess to gain an advantage do get noticed and arbiters who allow it to happen also get noticed. I am sure that by this very thread occurring that it is already getting noticed.

  14. #14
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    In my opinion the arbiter should have made one of two penalty decisions, a) made the player catch up his score sheet on his own time (with the clock running)
    That is what I do with these cases. They can borrow their opponent's scoresheet for the purpose but they can't make another move until they are up to date unless their time goes below 5 mins in the process of updating.

    Quote Originally Posted by justaknight
    Unfortunately, as in other cases, it comes down to Club policies which in turn are dictated by financial pressure. An extra entry is an extra entry regardless of the ability/willingness of the player to respect the rules.
    Know the problem - to a degree. Some years ago there was a rather strong player at our club who disliked scoring and claimed he was unable to score without his play being affected badly on account of some kind of dyslexia. He had scored in tournaments several years previously, and his performance on those was below rating, but not miles below. I could have demanded he produce a medical certificate to prove it but I think that would have scared him away; I took the path of lesser resistance and allowed him to desist from scoring but with 10 minutes off his clock.

    But outright unacceptable stuff just shouldn't be tolerated even if it is an extra entry fee.

  15. #15
    CC International Master William AS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    A player who refuses to write down the moves from the start of the game, after a few warnings should simply be ruled to have lost the game.

    I would usually act as follows:

    * tell the player they must write the moves down
    * if they continue not writing the moves down, penalise them 5 minutes, tell them they must write the moves down, and tell them they will lose the game if they do not write moves down
    * if they still continue not writing moves down, they lose the game.
    Exactly the procedure I would use. Never had to forfeit anyone yet, but some people push it right to the limit though.

    If the player wants to play from 5 minutes without writing their moves down they have the option of sitting there without making a move until their clock goes below 5 minutes (this would be very boring for all concerned.).
    I am sure the Arbiter could find some way to penalise them under the FIDE rules.

    As eclectic says, if a player has a disability then ideally an assistant should score for them. Sometimes in club situations this is not possible, and in these cases what I have usually done is waive the requirement to score, but deduct 10 minutes from the non-scoring player's clock at the start of the game.

    Some disabilities may be non-obvious, eg a player might be dyslexic.
    We have a player here with this problem and this is what is done [he has trouble writing down his name]. Mind you. He plays so quickly he always ends up with far more time on his clock than he starts with so this does not help his opponent much. On the plus side, his moves are not always the best because of this and his opponents can often take advantage.

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