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  1. #1
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    New industrial relations (IR) legislation

    I have the view that this is extraordinarily bad timing. Just as we are slipping inexorably into recession, possibly an extended recession, re-regulation of the job market will definitely cost more workers their jobs.

    How do I know? Several employers have recently told me that if this new legilsation goes through, they have already identified some poorly performing workers who will be sacked by June 30, before the new laws take effect.

    These are small businesses, employing more than 15 staff (but way less than 100).

    There is already a trend of employers using the current economic downturn as an excuse to shed lower performing staff, with the expectation that they can then take their pick from a much larger range of candidates on offer. The new legislation will just rapidly accelerate that trend. Very unfortunate.

    Things needed to be made fairer, but I honestly think they've gone too far in the other direction. I'll also bet that most of those who think otherwise will be people who have never tried to run a small business. (I did previously, Gunner does now, anyone else here a small business owner with staff?)
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    This post is a very polite (and articulated ) version of what of I think of Laba, Gillard and self-serving fools who marched in fava. Talk about shooting your hard-wired, moronic, mealy-mouthed, clueless selves in the foot!
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  3. #3
    CC International Master TheJoker's Avatar
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    Snail King and Gunner

    What are your opinions of the chaning nature of global employment relations, such that temporary, casual and contractd employees are becoming the norm, as opposed to full-time permanent staff. This means there has been a transfer of risk in regard to economic conditions from the employer to the employee (or more accurately the tax payer) in the name of preserving the bottom line.

    We all know that the business cycle is very volatile, the casualisation of the workforce increases that volatility. In effect workforce planning becomes a largley short-term specualtive activity. And at the first sign of trouble there can be a massive reduction in employment as casual and temporary staff are laid-off. The reduction in employment makes the predicition of a recession a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's only natural that this reaction occurs if a downturn is forecast, businesses dont want to suffer a loss in profitability because the they have an inflexible workforce whilst compeititors who down-size are more competitive.

    THe resverse occurs in booms the workforce exapnds to meet short-term opportunities beacause ther is little risk in expanding the casual workforce so long-term sustainability need not be considered. The rapid rise in employment stimulates the economy causing further employment, greater investment opportunites and higher assets and commodity prices. The increase return on investment means greater levels of gearing are exceptable. Eventually the capacity in the workforce tightens, increases in inflation and interest rates cause cost to rise dramatically. It all goes belly up, an so we see a massive reduction in employment and a huge economic downturn.

    This is indeed a very real social/economic problem that requires a regulatory solution. The problem is that with a globalised economy cpaital is readily transferrable across the world, therefore national level regulation against the casualisation of the workforce just forces firms to move jobs elsewhere. We really need a global regulatory solution. SO that organisation are forced to make workforce decisions that are sustainable long-term (the "old slow and steady wins the race" idea), at least large businesses, I am in favour of maintaining full flexibility of the workforce in small businesses.

    Also just for your interest Australia has one of the highest rates of casual labour in the developed world.
    Last edited by TheJoker; 21-03-2009 at 01:57 PM.

  4. #4
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    KRudd refused to deny that his pro-union workplace laws would cost jobs

    Look at the high unemployment in the Union of Socialist Soviet States of Europe. They have lovely workplace laws that protect workers already in jobs, but because it's too hard to fire, employers are more reluctant to hire.

    Seeming good, ending jobs
    Andrew Bolt, 21 March 2009

    If Labor’s plans won’t cost workers their jobs, Kevin Rudd would simply have said so. But four times he refused:

    CHRIS UHLMANN: Prime Minister, how does pushing up the cost of labour protect jobs?

    KEVIN RUDD: Our belief is that when you look at all the measures that this Government and, for example, governments like the Queensland Government, are investing in the economy through infrastructure; we are out there supporting jobs at the same time as the global economic recession is having an effect on pulling jobs out as well. But…

    CHRIS UHLMANN: But you’re making labour more expensive.

    KEVIN RUDD: But what we believe is that the right thing to do, consistent with our undertaking to the Australian people, is to provide proper protections.

    CHRIS UHLMANN: But those protections cost money and business has to pay it.

    KEVIN RUDD: But can I say to you that the overall balance in our workplace relations reforms is right. We crafted this over a long period of time in Opposition; a lot of consultation with Julia Gillard and business over the last 12 months to get the balance right. This is part of the balance, and if you’re out there and you’re one of half-a-million or so workers who would be thrown to one side by Mr Turnbull and his latest flip-flop on policy, well, that’s a matter for Mr Turnbull…

    CHRIS UHLMANN: Prime Minister, I can just establish this. You say you’re pushing the balance back and you’re pushing it back towards employees, that makes the cost of labour more expensive for employers, doesn’t it? And your award changes will do the same thing. How does that protect jobs?

    KEVIN RUDD: The whole challenge with a workplace relations system is to get the balance right, and in the economy overall, to make sure that we are doing the right thing to provide support for economic activity. You’ve got workplace relations here, implementing our mandate, getting the balance right, and at the same time, us quite clearly investing a large amount of money in the economy at a time of global recession to lift the prospect of further jobs in the economy.

    CHRIS UHLMANN: And in a time of global recession, do you need to make the cost of labour more expensive? Won’t that just mean that employers will not hire people?

    KEVIN RUDD: At a time of global economic recession, what you need to do is to honour your word, get on with the business of providing proper protection for people in the workplace, as we said we would, as Mr Turnbull said we had a mandate to do, and if you are one of those half-million Australians right now, you’re going to be looking for the protection which we promised to give them. Only the Senate and the Liberal Party stand in the way of that.

    CHRIS UHLMANN: One last question. Doesn’t more expensive labour mean less jobs?

    KEVIN RUDD: What you do, as far as overall economic management is concerned, is you advance on a range of fronts. You get out there, you invest in infrastructure to support jobs, you provide payments to people to support 1.5-million employees in the retail sector, you are out there across a whole range of different policies supporting jobs in the economy, and at the same time, as part of a balanced overall approach, giving proper protections to people in the workplace.
    It really is true and it really is disgraceful. Rudd himself cannot deny it - his plans will make hiring workers more expensive, and so people will lose their jobs. This is not just a farce, but a crime. How dare the unions applaud.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 21-03-2009 at 02:04 PM.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  5. #5
    . eclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    This is not just a farce, but a crime. How dare the unions applaud.
    so long as companies posting obscenely huge profits and retiring CEO's leaving with huge golden handshakes despite these recessionary times are seen as crimes too then who am i to argue?
    .

  6. #6
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    re: casual labour ... it has its place ... but it would be a very bad thing if it dominated the market. its important for the benefit of both employers and employees that permanent positions make up the majority. permanency offers a measure of security to both parties, which is good for business and less stressful for the employee.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  7. #7
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eclectic
    so long as companies posting obscenely huge profits
    Define "obscene". Such meaningless words are part and parcel of leftist rhetoric, serving to incite envy but lack objective merit.

    And in the private sector, the only way to make huge profits is to give huge numbers of people what they want at prices they are prepared to pay. Thanks to the profit motive, many people, including poor ones, can buy cheap goods to improve their quality of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by eclectic
    and retiring CEO's leaving with huge golden handshakes despite these recessionary times are seen as crimes too then who am i to argue?
    What really is a crime is using taxpayers' money to bail them out. If there were no bailout, AIG could not have paid the bonuses. But now the corrupt US Congress whinges that they are paying their bonuses, when Congress signed legislation that explicitly included them, and impose a retro-active 90% tax. The harm of such ex post facto legislation will not stop there. It will create a climate of uncertainty, just like that which prolonged the Great Depression.

    And Layba types were rank hypocrites for whinging about the salary of the CEO of Pacific Brands, the boss of 5000 employees, then are happy to pay the same amount to bring Tiger Woods here.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 21-03-2009 at 05:40 PM.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  8. #8
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    Snail King and Gunner, what are your opinions of ...
    What a loaded, simplified, model-watching pile of balls! No wonder Rudd and Gillard can spew out the hopeless positions they hold when simplified tenets like these are held up as fact.

    I might find the time time to pick at your statements one by one - then again I might not. Knowing me, I probably will ...
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  9. #9
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    It took less then three minutes for my 11yo son to work out that:
    "An employer is less likely to hire if it's more difficult to fire"
    For private coaching (IM, four times VIC champion) call or SMS 0417519733
    Computer tells you what to play. Good coach explains why.

  10. #10
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    This is indeed a very real social/economic problem that requires a regulatory solution. The problem is that with a globalised economy cpaital is readily transferrable across the world, therefore national level regulation against the casualisation of the workforce just forces firms to move jobs elsewhere. We really need a global regulatory solution.
    We should NOT give up our national sovereignty to trans-national progressivist bureaucrats who are unaccountable.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  11. #11
    CC International Master TheJoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    We should NOT give up our national sovereignty to trans-national progressivist bureaucrats who are unaccountable.
    No-one was proposing such a thing, I thinking more along the lines of a collaboration between national governments.

  12. #12
    CC International Master TheJoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    What a loaded, simplified, model-watching pile of balls! No wonder Rudd and Gillard can spew out the hopeless positions they hold when simplified tenets like these are held up as fact.

    I might find the time time to pick at your statements one by one - then again I might not. Knowing me, I probably will ...
    Simplified of course how could it not be on a bulletin board? Asking a loaded question often saves time in getting to the point of the topic you wish to discuss, so I wont make any apologies there.

    As for model watching you are right the theory proposed does on a cursory inspection seem to fit the economic data, I dont see how this is a bad thing?

    I doubt anybody holds what I said up as a fact, its simply an opinion based on observation not any serious research. I'll admit on re-read it does sound like I am making a statement.

    My post may well be a "pile of balls" perhaps it making up for lack balls shown by you in not offering a counter-arguement

  13. #13
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    My post may well be a "pile of balls"
    It is.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    perhaps it making up for lack balls shown by you in not offering a counter-arguement
    As I said, probably coming.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  14. #14
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    not true

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Define "obscene". Such meaningless words are part and parcel of leftist rhetoric, serving to incite envy but lack objective merit.

    And in the private sector, the only way to make huge profits is to give huge numbers of people what they want at prices they are prepared to pay.
    The way to make huge profits are:-

    1) ponzi schemes

    2) monopolies or ersatz momopolies

    2) Oligopolies

    Capitalism is very good at forcing profits down to what is reasonable over time.

  15. #15
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidflude
    The way to make huge profits are:-
    The ways below are insignificant to the fortunes made by Microsoft, Walmart, Woolworths etc., which provide people with cheap goods and improve their standard of living. The same goes for the misnamed robber barons of 100 years ago, who likewise found ways to supply products more cheaply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidflude
    1) ponzi schemes
    Which are illegal, except for US Social Security. Real capitalism is not anarchy, but the free exchange of goods and services without fraud or coercion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidflude
    2) monopolies or ersatz momopolies
    Monopolies have the best chance when the government prevents competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidflude
    2) Oligopolies
    Once again, cartels are usually government backed.

    2) Oligopolies
    Capitalism is very good at forcing profits down to what is reasonable over time. [/QUOTE]
    Whatever "reasonable" means. But indeed, in a free market, if one company is making huge profits, it means there is demand for what they produce, which is an incentive for competitors to enter and make even more of this product. So the price comes down and consumers win.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 21-03-2009 at 10:52 PM.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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