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  1. #31
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray
    Sounds a bit sus. Nigeria didn't exist until the late 19th century.
    Indeed; the Nigeria story is nonsense; most likely both terms derive from the same linguistic root rather than one being derived from the other.

    Something I learned in the process of investigating this is that inhabitants of Niger are often called Nigeriens, to distinguish them from Nigerians.
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  2. #32
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray
    How about 'Pommy' - did that start off as or acquire its old derogatory sense? It's now neutral in general usage.
    The origins of that one are much debated and probably now lost in the mists of time.
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  3. #33
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Indeed; the Nigeria story is nonsense; most likely both terms derive from the same linguistic root rather than one being derived from the other.
    The most likely root would have to be niger, Latin for the colour black
    Something I learned in the process of investigating this is that inhabitants of Niger are often called Nigeriens, to distinguish them from Nigerians.
    Probably more confusing than distinguishing

    The subject brings back memories of my East African safari in 2010, which included tours of the slave pens in Uganda and on Zanzibar, slave markets and slavery museums. A very depressing experience - ghastly places.

  4. #34
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray
    How about 'Pommy' - did that start off as or acquire its old derogatory sense? It's now neutral in general usage.
    I don't know — all before my time and I haven't researched it. I do know that when I arrived in Oz, it was used as both a friendly and derogatory term. Much as I claim (to the chagrin of the cringers) that all racial identifier words can be.

    I heard Tony Greig refer to the Pakis a few seasons back. I took it as entirely benign but I wondered retrospectively if the switch board lit up with cringers and apologists.

    'Intent and context', people — it'll see you through all manner of apologist/ cringer mantraps that lefties The Greens are setting!
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  5. #35
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray
    How about 'Pommy' - did that start off as or acquire its old derogatory sense? It's now neutral in general usage.
    I have a friend who makes a point of every pom she meets of calling them whinging pommie bastard - her ex-husband was a pom
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  6. #36
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Underpants
    I don't know all before my time and I haven't researched it. I do know that when I arrived in Oz, it was used as both a friendly and derogatory term. Much as I claim (to the chagrin of the cringers) that all racial identifier words can be.
    At the risk of sounding like a cringer, I can't imagine any context where the likes of 'chink', 'slope' or 'boong' are meant to be friendly descriptors. An exception might be deliberate misapplication between two friends, as in me calling you a pommy bastard in a joking sense in conversation. But not in mixed company.

  7. #37
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray
    I can't imagine any context where the likes of 'chink', 'slope' or 'boong' are meant to be friendly descriptors.
    Nor can I.

    And it is the existence of these terms that has cringers ducking and flinching at all descriptors, their intent and context notwithstanding.
    Last edited by Basil; 01-01-2012 at 06:33 PM.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  8. #38
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray
    At the risk of sounding like a cringer, I can't imagine any context where the likes of 'chink' ...
    Notwithstanding my post above, you'd remember this beautiful song. I draw your attention to 44 secs. Yellow chinkies. Context, Ian.

    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  9. #39
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Underpants
    And it is the existence of these terms that has cringers ducking and flinching at all descriptors, their rich tapestry and context notwithstanding.
    Political correctness certainly goes too far, but there is no need to use terms with racial-slur connotations in media or open company without a particular (literary, artistic, historical?) reason.
    Notwithstanding my post above, you'd remember this beautiful song. I draw your attention to 44 secs. Yellow chinkies. Context, Ian.
    Great song and the antithesis of racism. Still, 'yellow chinkies' is lyrically questionable, even for 1969.

  10. #40
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray
    Political correctness certainly goes too far,
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray
    ... but there is no need to use terms with racial-slur connotations in media or open company without a particular (literary, artistic, historical?) reason.
    Disagree. This line of thinking will keep us cringing for all time. I'd prefer to reclaim as many terms as possible a la gays, pakis, poms - all with very close attention to context and intent so there is NO grey area possible from reasonable minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray
    Great song and the antithesis of racism.
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray
    Still, 'yellow chinkies' is lyrically questionable, even for 1969.
    Disagree. I say it's exactly what I'm espousing almost 1/2 century later — and you cringers are still holding us back. Do youobject to the term 'ranga' or 'yank' do you save your cringing unilaterally for non standard racial descriptors, that appear strictly limited to non-white terms.
    Last edited by Basil; 01-01-2012 at 06:58 PM.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  11. #41
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    I think it is simple, all of these terms can only be used by the people they refer to for whatever purpose.

    When I was young I could not understand Aussies referring to English as poms, coz I considered the Aussies were also poms.

    eVen when words lose their derogatory sense they still should not be used because some people will still relate to their derogatory meaning.

    Just as we don't use spastic now, even if becomes PC
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  12. #42
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    I think it is simple, all of these terms can only be used by the people they refer to for whatever purpose.
    Why? Are you saying that no terms other than strict vocab is available to describe people of non-white ethnicity? How bloody slavish can you get? What about imitations of non-white accents? Are they permitted in your suffocated cringing world?

    As for the spastic corollary, you have missed the point entirely. The word spastic is a real word and is borrowed to describe able-bodied people who can't control themselves because they are drunk or similar. That, I do find objectionable and luckily I find your oprinion that matter without any merit or understanding of the issue whatsoever.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  13. #43
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Underpants
    Why? Are you saying that no terms other than strict vocab is available to describe people of non-white ethnicity? How bloody slavish can you get? What about imitations of non-white accents? Are they permitted in your suffocated cringing world?

    As for the spastic corollary, you have missed the point entirely. The word spastic is a real word and is borrowed to describe able-bodied people who can't control themselves because they are drunk or similar. That, I do find objectionable and luckily I find your oprinion that matter without any merit or understanding of the issue whatsoever.
    I don't think the Spastic Centre refers to people who are drunk

    And expecting me to understand the issue is OTT
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  14. #44
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    I don't think the Spastic Centre refers to people who are drunk
    If you are referring to the Spastic Centre changing its name (and you weren't at all clear), that has nothing to do with harrassment of spastics. It was a marketing issue — and although I am not totally au fait, I'd hazard that the community-at-large has won that war and stolen the word from its original users.
    edit: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-02-0...centre/1935116

    FM radio, facebook, workplaces and indeed this BB are full of people declaring they were spastic on the weekend (meaning they couldn't control their limbs) and I think spastic people have decided that the term is now one of derision.
    Last edited by Basil; 01-01-2012 at 08:06 PM.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  15. #45
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Underpants
    Disagree. This line of thinking will keep us cringing for all time. I'd prefer to reclaim as many terms as possible a la gays, pakis, poms - all with very close attention to context and intent so there is NO grey area possible from reasonable minds.
    Cautiously agree on that basis, assuming context/intent can in fact cause no offence. Gratuitous use is not an option.
    Disagree. I say it's exactly what I'm espousing almost 1/2 century later and you cringers are still holding us back. Do you object to the term 'ranga' or 'yank' do you save your cringing unilaterally for non standard racial descriptors, that appear strictly limited to non-white terms.
    I'd never heard ranga before. A quick google turned up immediate confirmation that the term is offensive to (some) redheads. However my cringing is colour-blind - I also object to terms like frog, wog, dapto. No problem with yank or kiwi.

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