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  1. #61
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Snail King
    I don't think I said that at all ... please stop putting words in my mouth.
    What I do is take what you say and take it to its logical conclusion to demonstrate the indefensibility of your position. It is called reductio ad absurdum.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Snail King
    How about I put it like this. Some Christians failed to act to stop Hitler (perhaps through fear, perhaps because they were deceived). Some may even have killed Jews.

    If they did, they were wrong to do so. Their actions were not those of a Christian. Even if I were to accept that Hitler thought he was a Christian (and I don't, as it seems obvious to me that he was using the language of Christians in order to manipulate people) ... but even if he was ... he was wrong to do so and was acting in a non-Christian way.
    No doubt most Christians agree with you. However, the belief system of Hitler himself is almost a moot point. He was obviously using christian language to manipulate a mainly Christian population to do some very bad things.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Snail King
    Therefore his actions cannot be used as a justification to criticise Christianity. The whole idea is quite preposterous.
    What is preposterous is the misapprehension which Jono is trying to promulgate that Germans in the 1940s and 50s were mainly non-Christian. That is just unsustainable.

    I'm not calling all Christians Nazis or even anti-Semitic. However, in general, the Christian record on persecution of a whole number of groups including Jews is not good.

    In another thread I might argue that the reason for this is the moral flaw of Christianity which allows people to do terrible things and then atone for there sins and still attain salvation (a la Hans Frank)
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  2. #62
    CC Candidate Master Mokum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    What is preposterous is the misapprehension which Jono is trying to promulgate that Germans in the 1940s and 50s were mainly non-Christian. That is just unsustainable.
    That is indeed all here is to this discussion. No matter what Hitler or some of the Nazis thought, the question is, can you claim that Germany under the Nazis was an atheist society, and if so can you claim that the atrocities that were committed by these Germans were atheist atrocities that wouldn't have happened if Germany had remained Christian. Germany was not an atheist society, before, during nor after the Nazi era. Maybe in Jono's definition they weren't true Christians, but not many would be because even most Christians are educated, and don't suscribe to Jono's hardline creationist nonsense. For everyone else, Germany was indeed a Christian society. And they committed those atrocities. Not because they were Christian, mind you, but because they were otherwise deluded.
    Let me have some sausage
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  3. #63
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    Germany was a Christian nation, not an atheist one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    They were a highly evolutionized nation...
    I ask again, can one be a Christian and believe in evolution?

  4. #64
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    I ask again, can one be a Christian and believe in evolution?
    I respond again: see my articles like ‘Schweitzer’s Dangerous Discovery’ for the answer.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    That is indeed all here is to this discussion. No matter what Hitler or some of the Nazis thought, the question is, can you claim that Germany under the Nazis was an atheist society, and if so can you claim that the atrocities that were committed by these Germans were atheist atrocities that wouldn't have happened if Germany had remained Christian.
    Mokum's dogmatic mind is made up, despite the copious evidence of evolutionary dogma infiltrating society and even the church, as Prof. Wiekart copiously documented, and my posts above have produced further evidence. Not all evolutionists are atheists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    Germany was not an atheist society, before, during nor after the Nazi era. Maybe in Jono's definition they weren't true Christians,
    They weren't. Gresham Machen's classic 1923 book Christianity and Liberalism showed that theological liberalism was not a branch of Christianity but a totally different religion. And the birthplace of theological liberalism was Germany.

    I deign to defend only true (biblical) Christianity, not wolves in sheep's clothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    but not many would be because even most Christians are educated,
    I have an earned science doctorate and master title. That's quite educated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    and don't suscribe to Jono's hardline creationist nonsense.
    As if Mokum would know.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  6. #66
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    I respond again: see my articles like ‘Schweitzer’s Dangerous Discovery’ for the answer.
    Did you post that earlier? Sorry I must have missed it. Found this conclusion:

    "Yes, one can be a Christian and an evolutionist, but such a position is both scientifically and biblically untenable. The Lord Jesus took a literal view of Genesis. The theory of evolution is dishonouring to God as Creator, and its teaching leads to a disastrous secularizing of society."

    Sounds a bit like "yes, but no". Not surprising since you don't want to lose the majority of your readers by declaring them non-Christian. In any event, you using evolution as some sort of evidence that the Germans were atheists sounds more like a solid "no" to me.

  7. #67
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    Sounds a bit like "yes, but no".
    No, like "yes, but here are some dangers of this position all the same."

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    Not surprising since you don't want to lose the majority of your readers by declaring them non-Christian.
    No, I want to tell them what I really think. We will not be bought; one person cancelled a $1000 cheque after a recent article said that Jesus is God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    In any event, you using evolution as some sort of evidence that the Germans were atheists sounds more like a solid "no" to me.
    Some were, a lot were pagans, and lot were Bible-denying churchians. What were almost absent, except in the concentration camps, were biblical Christians.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  8. #68
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    This is another instance of the argument ad Hitlerum fallacy, especially when the reasons for some of the actions (like renaming particular holidays) are clearly different.
    At best, this argument ad Hitlerum fallacy would apply to an argument against current American policies. But the above examples were legitimate as examples of Hitler's christophobic actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    This paints a rather different picture to some other stats you've quoted concerning how fervent religious belief supposedly makes people more sceptical of paranormalist views and other trendy religion substitutes.
    More likely, they show that American Christianity is mile wide and inch deep. There is far too much dependence on Christian celebrities as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I believe the above stat actually. There will always be exceptions (those who are devout to one faith exclusively) but in general if a person will believe something that is far-fetched then they are more likely to believe something else far-fetched even if the two beliefs are inconsistent with each other. And I've seen stats on this.
    I've seen stats on superstitious beliefs correlating with rejection of the Bible, e.g. Look Who's Irrational Now, WSJ, 19 Sept 2008:



    "What Americans Really Believe", a comprehensive new study released by Baylor University yesterday, shows that traditional Christian religion greatly decreases belief in everything from the efficacy of palm readers to the usefulness of astrology. It also shows that the irreligious and the members of more liberal Protestant denominations, far from being resistant to superstition, tend to be much more likely to believe in the paranormal and in pseudoscience than evangelical Christians.



    In his 1983 book The Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener, skeptic and science writer Martin Gardner cited the decline of traditional religious belief among the better educated as one of the causes for an increase in pseudoscience, cults and superstition. He referenced a 1980 study published in the magazine Skeptical Inquirer that showed irreligious college students to be by far the most likely to embrace paranormal beliefs, while born-again Christian college students were the least likely.



    We can't even count on self-described atheists to be strict rationalists. According to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life's monumental "U.S. Religious Landscape Survey" that was issued in June, 21% of self-proclaimed atheists believe in either a personal God or an impersonal force. Ten percent of atheists pray at least weekly and 12% believe in heaven.

    On Oct. 3, Mr. Maher debuts Religulous, his documentary that attacks religious belief. He talks to Hasidic scholars, Jews for Jesus, Muslims, polygamists, Satanists, creationists, and even Rael — prophet of the Raelians — before telling viewers: "The plain fact is religion must die for man to live."

    But it turns out that the late-night comic is no icon of rationality himself. In fact, he is a fervent advocate of pseudoscience. The night before his performance on Conan O'Brien, Mr. Maher told David Letterman — a quintuple bypass survivor — to stop taking the pills that his doctor had prescribed for him. He proudly stated that he didn't accept Western medicine. On his HBO show in 2005, Mr. Maher said: "I don't believe in vaccination. … Another theory that I think is flawed, that we go by the Louis Pasteur [germ] theory." He has told CNN's Larry King that he won't take aspirin because he believes it is lethal and that he doesn't even believe the Salk vaccine eradicated polio.

    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  9. #69
    CC Candidate Master Mokum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    I have an earned science doctorate and master title. That's quite educated.
    So you keep telling everyone. You bite too easily, Jono.
    Let me have some sausage
    Fyodor Dostoyevsky - The Brothers Karamazov

  10. #70
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    So you keep telling everyone. You bite too easily, Jono.
    As Steinitz supposedly said after his brilliant splattering of Bardeleben, "I may be an old lion, but if someone puts his hand in my mouth, I can still bite it off!"
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  11. #71
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    biting!!!

    Hi Jono, thanks for the "old lion still biting" moto, (for oldies like me it means a lot ) thanks for the great analysis and thanks for that wonderful website as well!
    CAGLES
    ACF 3118316
    FIDE 3201457

  12. #72
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    [a] lot were Bible-denying churchians
    Regarding the group you call "Bible-denying churchians":

    How would you classify the present Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams. He has made some statements which UI'm sure you don;t agree with.
    Is he a Christian or a "Bible-denying churchian"?
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Regarding the group you call "Bible-denying churchians":

    How would you classify the present Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams.
    See my article Church of England apologises to Darwin: Anglican Church’s neo-Chamberlainite appeasement of secularism, which includes links to the Yes Prime Minister episode "Bishop's Gambit" that brilliantly satirizes the real nature of the Church of England.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    He has made some statements which UI'm sure you don;t agree with.
    Is he a Christian or a "Bible-denying churchian"?
    The latter, esp. with his support for Sharia law.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  14. #74
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    More of Hitler's hostility to Christianity documented in Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg (2007):

    [T]he Nazis worked relentlessly to replace … Christianity with a new political religion. The shrewdest way to accomplish this was to co-opt Christianity via the Gleichschaltung ["coordination" in German] while at the same time shrinking traditional religion’s role in civil society. …

    The German historian Götz Aly explains how Hitler purchased popularity with lavish social welfare programs and middle-class perks, often paid for with stolen Jewish wealth and high taxes on the rich. Hitler banned religious charity, crippling the churches’ role as a counterweight to the state. Clergy were put on government salary, hence subjected to state authority. “The parsons will be be made to dig their own graves,” Hitler cackled. “They will betray their God to us. They will betray anything for the sake of their miserable little jobs and incomes.” …

    When some Protestant bishops visited the Führer to register complaints [against Nazi policies attempting to co-opt/replace Christianity], Hitler’s rage got the better of him. “Christianity will disappear from Germany just as it has done in Russia … The German race has existed without Christianity for thousands of years … and will continue after Christianity has disappeared … We must get used to the teachings of blood and race.”
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  15. #75
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    How would you classify the present Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams. ... Is he a Christian or a "Bible-denying churchian"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    The latter
    Ok so the majority of the population of 1940s Germany are in the same set as the Archbishop of Canterbury?

    I put it to you then that you are using a definition of the word "Christian" which is much more narrow than the general usage. By general usage the Archbishop of Canterbury is undeniably and uncontroversially Christian.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

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