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  1. #46
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    this thread has really gone to the w.c.
    Well yeah when Jono started name-calling in post #36 it was hardly going to go anywhere else.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  2. #47
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Justaknight:
    2) What on earth were you doing with a host in your hand? maybe you grabbed it from a priest giving the other person a reason to be infuriated?

    Later when in mood will look at your post a bit more. I did not know you were referring to years ago..

    That host was a blessed one I got from a church, I pretended I put it in my mouth but shot out the door with it. Would not want to eat the stupid thing anyway - not without Lebo garlic sauce, Sharon's favourite as well.

    That is another gripe, I don't like how Israel's copy Lebo food (very poorly I might add) calling it Middle Eastern and give it a bad name, as texture and taste leave a lot to be desired. Even Sharon would not tolerate Israeli Lebanese cooking. Nothing but the real thing for him,.

  3. #48
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Robert Wistrich, the professor of modern Jewish history at Hebrew University, wrote in Hitler and the Holocaust:

    Indeed, the leading Nazis … Hitler, Himmler, Rosenberg, Goebbels and Bormann … were all fanatically anti-Christian, though this was partly hidden from the German public. … The conviction that Judaism, Christianity and Bolshevism represented one single pathological phenomenon of decadence became a veritable leitmotif for Hitler around the time that the "Final Solution" had been conceived of as an operational plan.
    Robert Wistrich is pushing too hard (or you are misquoting again) Because calling Hitler fanatically anti-Christian is an overstatement when Hitler was still openly professing a belief in god in radio broadcasts in 1945.

    Himmler sated in 1937:
    In ideological training I forbid every attack against Christ as a person, since such attacks or insults that Christ was a Jew are unworthy of us and certainly untrue historically.
    -Heinrich Himmler, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf, 28 June 1937

    Hardly the position of a fanatical anti-Christian to ban attacked on Christ.

    Goebells in 1936:
    We have a feeling that Germany has been transformed into a great house of God, including all classes, professions and creeds, where the Führer as our mediator stood before the throne of the Almighty.
    -Joseph Goebbels, in a broadcast, 19 April 1936

    Again hardly the statement of a fanatical anti-Christian.


    I'll give him Bormann and Rosenberg.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Biblical Christianity means following the Bible, according to its original meaning, which can be objectively determined by the historical-grammatical hermeneutic.
    That is your interpretation but its hardly the only one just the one you feel justifies your present argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    It's because they followed the Bible that they opposed Hitler and his counterfeit authority.
    Ipse dixit. It was not the charge. Following the bible was not explicitly illegal in Hitler's Germany.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Ah yes, Windy shows his true socialist colours, wanting the government to regulate the airwaves. The USSR agreed, in the name of the people of course. Naturally, the Left aren't talking about fairness for the leftist government-funded radio and TV, only for their competition in the private sector.
    It is the present state of affairs. No point buying into the game by purchasing a radio license and then cmoplaining about the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    The best regulation is free competition. It's only because liberal talk radio has failed miserably that the Left want to use force to push liberal crap on the radio waves.
    Free competition was largely responsible for the Great Depression and the present economic situation. This thread is hardly about economic policy. Take your other ultra-right wing attitudes to the appropriate threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    More likely, Windy would rather use government force to restrict what's said on the radio, like Hitler and Stalin.
    It is standard practice thoughout the Western world to regulate the radio broadcasts. Jono obviously prefers the Mexican pirate radio system when unscrupulous privateers can ride roughshod over law-abiding operators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    No, he explicitly recognized that his Nazi atrocities were contrary to the Catholicism he professed to convert to, and repented and agreed that he deserved to hang for them.
    Yep. Another flaw with the Christian concept of atonement and salvation. You can commit atrocities, beg forgiveness and still get a ticket to heaven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    It's certainly easy to say that murder is incompatible with Christian teachings.
    Of course it is easy to say. However it is clear that the majority of Christians don't believe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Don't be a moron all your life. Not all killing is murder.
    Perfect a loophole. So to all the concentration camp workers, it was not murder because not all killing is murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Yawn, more of the same paranoia (see Outrageous Reasoning: A Closer Look at a Common Skeptical Tactic by James Patrick Holding).
    How is Robert these days?

    The point is that with so much justified genocide in the Bible it is hardly the German's fault for thinking these was justified. The christian mindset is to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Bormann was one of Hitler's inner circle at the time.
    Yep. Bormann was the only person to have read the transcript and the show Hitler as supporting Bormann's own ideological position. The point is Hitler or no one else read the transcripts and therefore we have to trust Bormann's representation of the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Prove it. I've documented my case from Gilbert's Nuremberg diaries, and he was the psychologist who examined the defendants at length.
    Prove what exactly.

    Hitler was a catholic
    He often referred to God in public
    Others in the Nazi regime thought of him as a catholic

    For this last point see Goring testimony at the Nuremberg Trial:
    Although he himself [Hitler] was a Catholic, he wished the Protestant Church to have a stronger position in Germany, since Germany was two-thirds Protestant.
    -Hermann Göring, Nuremberg, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Some are wrong. And when maths problems are receive many different solutions from students, it would prove that there was no one correct solution.
    Sometimes there is no unique solution.

    For example, solve the following
    sin(x) = 0, for x in {-infinity, infinity}

    You believe x = 0
    Catholics believe x = Pi
    Lutherans believe x = 2 Pi

    You get the analogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    It shows that Röhm, like many of the other early Nazis who were homosexuals, didn't perceive the Nazis as a threat to their sexuality.
    It certainly does not show that. Regardless of Rohm's motivation, what is true is that you and Hitler have a similar beliefs on homosexuality. Hardly surprising when you are both exteme right wing fruit loops.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  4. #49
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Justaknight:

    1) are you serious? where the hell do I say you presented Holocaust as Nazi (???) propaganda? or zionist propaganda as you might wanted to say? No apologies mate, I am saying here clearly and i quote

    It is good, however, that you, an enemy of the State of Israel, saw the light acknowledging pogroms against the Jews. Usually, you present the case as a Zionist propaganda! Meaning that you actually comparing and finding equal Nazi and Jewish atrocities.
    Can I give you a typical example? If yes, I will!

    A/C Israel restraints amounts to killing 10:1, about on par with the Nazi SS - the Star of David about a 3/4 length behind the Swastika

    This is only a small example of this attitude as it was expressed in a thread here on 22/08/06

    A/C
    Yeah I think I will have to revise that figure of 10:1, I think in the Gaza incursion the figure was about 100:1, whereas the Nazi policy against the Jews was I think 60:1, Or 6:1 I can't remember.

    I recently read that for all those 8 years of rockets from Hamas they managed to kill a total of 15 people, the Gaza incursion killed about 1500, so was 100:1
    Last edited by antichrist; 01-02-2009 at 03:50 PM.

  5. #50
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Robert Wistrich is pushing too hard (or you are misquoting again)
    I.e. yet another expert is not as gullible as Rincy, and takes into account far more data than opportunistic speeches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Because calling Hitler fanatically anti-Christian is an overstatement when Hitler was still openly professing a belief in god in radio broadcasts in 1945.
    Belief in a god is irrelevant. Even the demons believe in a god.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Himmler sated in 1937:
    Hardly the position of a fanatical anti-Christian to ban attacked on Christ.
    Or, a fanatical anti-Christian who wanted to exterminate the churches, as the Nuremberg trials proved, but tried to hide his intentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Goebells in 1936:
    Again hardly the statement of a fanatical anti-Christian.
    More like the Caesars you like: they "tolerated" all religions, as long as there was a place for the Emperor. They persecuted Christians because they wouldn't give him the final authority. Similarly, for a while, the Nazis tolerated the churches as long as they proclaimed Hitler as final authority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Free competition was largely responsible for the Great Depression and the present economic situation. This thread is hardly about economic policy. Take your other ultra-right wing attitudes to the appropriate threads.
    Take your ultra-left group-think to the appropriate threads, where it has already been documented that Hoover was not a supporter of free competition but was an interventionist, protectionist, big spender, and tax-rate–increaser, and that FDR's continuation and extention of these policies made the depression "great". Nice to see how Rincy supports the Nazi aims to control the means of production, and shows how antithetical right-wing thinking like free economic competition is to both him and the Nazis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    It is standard practice thoughout the Western world to regulate the radio broadcasts.
    Not to tell broadcasters what they must broadcast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Jono obviously prefers the Mexican pirate radio system when unscrupulous privateers can ride roughshod over law-abiding operators.
    I prefer the current American system, not the one Rincy and the American Left want, which is to control the political discourse. Once more, Rincy is on the side of the Nazis in wanting to regulate political content on the radio waves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Perfect a loophole. So to all the concentration camp workers, it was not murder because not all killing is murder.
    Their victims were innocent. Conversely, soldiers can justly kill invading enemies, and policemen can justly use lethal force to prevent a criminal taking life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    How is Robert these days?
    Robert who?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    The point is that with so much justified genocide in the Bible it is hardly the German's fault for thinking these was justified.
    Not at all, since the conditions of rampant child sacrifice and temple prostitution didn't apply to the Jews, and neither had the Jews attacked Germany with lethal force. That's why the overseas German Lutherans opposed Hitler.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    The christian mindset is to believe.
    The atheistic lefty mindset is groupthink. Christians are to love God with their minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Sometimes there is no unique solution.
    Irrelevant to the point, i.e. that the mere existence of wrong solutions doesn't mean that there is no right solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    For example, solve the following
    sin(x) = 0, for x in {-infinity, infinity}

    You believe x = 0
    Catholics believe x = Pi
    Lutherans believe x = 2 Pi
    More likely, your argument is more like: because some students give answers of Pi/2, 3Pi/2, it follows that it's arrogant to believe that only integral multiples of Pi are right. While I would say that all integral solutions are valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    It certainly does not show that. Regardless of Rohm's motivation, what is true is that you and Hitler have a similar beliefs on homosexuality. Hardly surprising when you are both exteme right wing fruit loops.
    He didn't like it because he thought it was an unsound evolutionary view. Of course, there was nothing
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  6. #51
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    The problem with your position is you can avoid any inconvenient atrocity by saying, "oh, he wasn't being christian THEN".
    ... and the problem with YOUR position is that you can smear any system of belief by pointing to someone who professes to be an adherent of that system whilst behaving in ways that are totally incongruent with that system ... in other words, when actions are inconsistent with words, your position is that one ought to believe that the actions are consistent with some kind of gross interpretation of the beliefs. You'd believe any liar. You'd prefer to believe that one of the greatest mass murderers of history is a follower of Christ who preached "turn the other cheek".

    Nah. Sorry ... if you were my son, I'd tell you "stop being a silly goose".

    In fact, you're worse than that ... you're being a complete bloody idiot.

    Now shut up, or I shall taunt you a second time.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  7. #52
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Brannon Howse has pointed out the following anti-Christian actions by the Nazis, which have disturbing parallels for the way militant misotheists want to marginalize Christianity in the USA:
    This is another instance of the argument ad Hitlerum fallacy, especially when the reasons for some of the actions (like renaming particular holidays) are clearly different. And there's this:

    [*]Hitler controlled the church using intimidation and threats. A half-century ago, U.S. Senator and Senate Majority Leader Lyndon Baines Johnson, promoted a bill that included an amendment to use the Internal Revenue Service to remove the non-profit status of a church that speaks against the election of any specific political candidate.
    This is hardly "intimidation" but simply indicates that if churches want to get special treatment from the State then they should be churches and not soapboxes.

    As evidence that church doors continue to open further to aberrant beliefs, a 2008 survey found that 57% of evangelicals do not believe Jesus Christ is the only way to God.
    This paints a rather different picture to some other stats you've quoted concerning how fervent religious belief supposedly makes people more sceptical of paranormalist views and other trendy religion substitutes.

    I believe the above stat actually. There will always be exceptions (those who are devout to one faith exclusively) but in general if a person will believe something that is far-fetched then they are more likely to believe something else far-fetched even if the two beliefs are inconsistent with each other. And I've seen stats on this.

  8. #53
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Snail King
    ... and the problem with YOUR position is that you can smear any system of belief by pointing to someone who professes to be an adherent of that system whilst behaving in ways that are totally incongruent with that system ... in other words, when actions are inconsistent with words, your position is that one ought to believe that the actions are consistent with some kind of gross interpretation of the beliefs.
    You'd like to believe that Christianity is the world's most popular religion. However now you are saying the only Christians are the ones who never break the rules. However, I think you will be the first to admit that everyone is a sinner. Therefore, by your strict application of a definition of a Christian is that they are defined by there action, there are no Christians.

    The point of the argument is no so much what Hitler himself believed but the holocaust was perpetrated by the majority of the German population, predominantly Christians like you and Jono. Occasional sinners but mostly trying to follow the teaching of Christ.

    They also killed six million Jews.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Snail King
    You'd believe any liar. You'd prefer to believe that one of the greatest mass murderers of history is a follower of Christ who preached "turn the other cheek".
    You are just taking a small part of a huge body of text and saying "turn the other cheek" epitomises the teaching of Christ.

    Jono will be the first one to say that Jesus didn't always turn the other cheek when it came to making his argument. It is the way he justifies his penchant for name calling.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Snail King
    Nah. Sorry ... if you were my son, I'd tell you "stop being a silly goose".
    If I was your son that would be the least of my concerns.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  9. #54
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    ... now you are saying the only Christians are the ones who never break the rules.
    I don't think I said that at all ... please stop putting words in my mouth.

    How about I put it like this. Some Christians failed to act to stop Hitler (perhaps through fear, perhaps because they were deceived). Some may even have killed Jews.

    If they did, they were wrong to do so. Their actions were not those of a Christian. Even if I were to accept that Hitler thought he was a Christian (and I don't, as it seems obvious to me that he was using the language of Christians in order to manipulate people) ... but even if he was ... he was wrong to do so and was acting in a non-Christian way.

    Therefore his actions cannot be used as a justification to criticise Christianity. The whole idea is quite preposterous.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  10. #55
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    from Rincewinds post

    Robert Wistrich is pushing too hard (or you are misquoting again) Because calling Hitler fanatically anti-Christian is an overstatement when Hitler was still openly professing a belief in god in radio broadcasts in 1945.

    A/C
    I have his book and autographed when he was here about 8 years ago. I attended his lecture based on his book "Anti-semitcism - the longest hatred". Nice guy he is. I also have video of his talk somewhere.

    I showed it a few places around sydney and I was accused of being a Jew-Lover (not that I minded). Everything depends on context.

  11. #56
    CC Candidate Master Mokum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    He was.
    I rest my case
    Let me have some sausage
    Fyodor Dostoyevsky - The Brothers Karamazov

  12. #57
    CC Candidate Master Mokum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    What would you know? If you swallow the "Hitler was a Christian" nonsense, you're as stupid as Rincy.
    I never did make that call, and I keep trying to explain to you that Hitler's religion is irrelevant. This whole discussion started with Rincewind stating that Nazi Christians killed millions of Jews. They did. Germany was a Christian nation, not an atheist one. That doesn't say much about Christianity. I would never use that argument to prove that Christianity is bad. But you do use the fact that Mao and Stalin killed tens of millions to prove that Atheism is bad. And for good measure you try to push Hitler in that camp as well, to make life easier. And now you claim Hitler was another lefty as well. Nice and easy. You're a joke, Jono, and not a very funny one.
    Let me have some sausage
    Fyodor Dostoyevsky - The Brothers Karamazov

  13. #58
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    I never did make that call, and I keep trying to explain to you that Hitler's religion is irrelevant. This whole discussion started with Rincewind stating that Nazi Christians killed millions of Jews. They did.
    Wrong. They were not Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    Germany was a Christian nation, not an atheist one.
    They were a highly evolutionized nation, and the church was corrupted by liberal Bible-rejection, so was no longer Christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    That doesn't say much about Christianity. I would never use that argument to prove that Christianity is bad. But you do use the fact that Mao and Stalin killed tens of millions to prove that Atheism is bad.
    In this thread, it was replying to antichrist's usual christophobic rants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    And for good measure you try to push Hitler in that camp as well, to make life easier.
    No, that his policies were strongly motivated by evolutionary ideas, as many non-Christian experts have stated. It is true that Hitler and the Nazis were hostile to Christianity and wanted to wipe it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    And now you claim Hitler was another lefty as well. Nice and easy.
    You want to claim he was right wing, although he was diametrically opposed to current right-wing policies, but had a lot in common with leftist polices. Before the racism became over-arching, many on the Left regarded him as a fellow traveller. Sure, Hitler was anti-communist, but that was fighting over the same territory. Communists killed communists too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    You're a joke, Jono, and not a very funny one.
    You're a moron, Mokum, and they don't have to be funny.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  14. #59
    CC Candidate Master Mokum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    You're a moron, Mokum, and they don't have to be funny.
    I am glad we've got that out of the way. As I said before, there is very little point arguing with Jono. But amusing enough.
    Let me have some sausage
    Fyodor Dostoyevsky - The Brothers Karamazov

  15. #60
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    I.e. yet another expert is not as gullible as Rincy, and takes into account far more data than opportunistic speeches.
    Well I haven't seen the original work and your use of ellipses in the quote makes me think that perhaps you are quoting out of context. However referring to all those individuals as "fanatically anti-christian" just cannot be maintained.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Belief in a god is irrelevant. Even the demons believe in a god.
    I like that one. I guess you would know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Or, a fanatical anti-Christian who wanted to exterminate the churches, as the Nuremberg trials proved, but tried to hide his intentions.
    As I said I will give you Rosenberg and Bormann. The others were hardly fanatical and even openly referred to themselves as Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    More like the Caesars you like: they "tolerated" all religions, as long as there was a place for the Emperor. They persecuted Christians because they wouldn't give him the final authority. Similarly, for a while, the Nazis tolerated the churches as long as they proclaimed Hitler as final authority.
    Hardly the words of a "fanatical anti-christian", as claimed by your quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Take your ultra-left group-think to the appropriate threads, where it has already been documented that Hoover was not a supporter of free competition but was an interventionist, protectionist, big spender, and tax-rate–increaser, and that FDR's continuation and extention of these policies made the depression "great". Nice to see how Rincy supports the Nazi aims to control the means of production, and shows how antithetical right-wing thinking like free economic competition is to both him and the Nazis.
    Whatever, as I said take your ultra right wing economics elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Not to tell broadcasters what they must broadcast.
    It is standard practice. As I said, just because you have a license to broadcast it doesn't give you carte blanche on content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    I prefer the current American system, not the one Rincy and the American Left want, which is to control the political discourse. Once more, Rincy is on the side of the Nazis in wanting to regulate political content on the radio waves.
    It is regulated now. The only thing we are discussing is the degree of regulation. However the whole radio broadcast is just an attempt by you to obfuscate the discussion on the religious leanings of 1930s/40s Germany.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Their victims were innocent. Conversely, soldiers can justly kill invading enemies, and policemen can justly use lethal force to prevent a criminal taking life.
    Same with Germany and the holocaust. They could justify it theologically by appealing to Luther.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Robert who?
    Your librarian mate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Not at all, since the conditions of rampant child sacrifice and temple prostitution didn't apply to the Jews, and neither had the Jews attacked Germany with lethal force. That's why the overseas German Lutherans opposed Hitler.
    Ipse dixit. The fact that the German Lutherans were overseas to start with means they had prior issues with remaining in Germany so prior disaffections would make it more likely they would oppose Hitler anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    The atheistic lefty mindset is groupthink. Christians are to love God with their minds.
    Well such as they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Irrelevant to the point, i.e. that the mere existence of wrong solutions doesn't mean that there is no right solution.
    You misunderstood my statement. "No unique solution" does not preclude non-unique solutions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    More likely, your argument is more like: because some students give answers of Pi/2, 3Pi/2, it follows that it's arrogant to believe that only integral multiples of Pi are right. While I would say that all integral solutions are valid.
    No in keeping with the analogy only a liberal Christian would entertain multiple solutions. You would still be labouring under the false assumption that there was a unique solution and your particular methodology lead to x = 0 and therefore everyone else is wrong, regardless of their reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    He didn't like it because he thought it was an unsound evolutionary view. Of course, there was nothing
    An evolutionist would not care about homosexuality since if it was exclusive it could not be transmitted genetically and if it was inclusive then it was besides the point.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

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