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  1. #31
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Just [/quote] without the =postername bit works for a close-quote.

  2. #32
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    thanks Kev, you told me once more, I will try to do it properly next time... It was a case of having to dig back in the search thing to find some of A/Cs statements to support my arguement!
    Last edited by ER; 31-01-2009 at 11:23 PM.
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  3. #33
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    And they wanted to hear these noises because they were Christian.
    Yet as amply documented, true (biblical) Christianity was very rare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    Which is why I said that at least in appearance Hitler was a Christian.
    Hitler made evolutionary noises far more, which suited the widespread reach of evolution in the universities, media and judiciary. He certainly didn't appear Christian to many outside Germany, including overseas Lutherans of German ethnicity.

    Brannon Howse has pointed out the following anti-Christian actions by the Nazis, which have disturbing parallels for the way militant misotheists want to marginalize Christianity in the USA:

    1. Hitler eliminated Christian holidays in the schools first by calling Christmas “Yuletide.” Most American public schools now call Christmas vacation a “winter break.”
    2. Hitler outlawed school prayer in Germany . In 1962, The U.S. Supreme Court did the same for us.
    3. Hitler took Easter out of schools and instead honored that time of year as the beginning of spring. It has likewise become common for schools in America to refer to time off at Easter as “spring break.”
    4. Hitler controlled the church using intimidation and threats. A half-century ago, U.S. Senator and Senate Majority Leader Lyndon Baines Johnson, promoted a bill that included an amendment to use the Internal Revenue Service to remove the non-profit status of a church that speaks against the election of any specific political candidate.
    5. Hitler enticed thousands of pastors to promote paganism in their congregations. Neopaganism is one of the fastest growing religions in America , doubling every 18 months according to a June 2008 article in The Denver Post. Many American church-goers practice paganism such as “Christian” yoga, contemplative prayer, and walking a labyrinth. As evidence that church doors continue to open further to aberrant beliefs, a 2008 survey found that 57% of evangelicals do not believe Jesus Christ is the only way to God.
    6. Hitler prevented dissenters from using radio to challenge his worldview. Many powerful liberals in America have made clear their intent to reintroduce the “Fairness Doctrine” that would require conservative and religious radio stations to offer equal time to anti-Christian, anti-conservative worldviews.
    7. Pastors who spoke against Hitler’s worldview and his murderous regime found themselves on trial and frequently imprisoned for “Abuse of Pulpit.” In America , hate-crime legislation has the potential to criminalize Christians and pastors who speak out against the homosexual agenda.

    [/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    Hitler had no friends,
    You know what I mean. His closest associates then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    and the table talk transcripts have not stood the test of time, but no matter, Hitler was not a very nice guy.
    They accurately reflect what Hitler really thought. They were compiled while Hitler was alive, so would not have dared to misrepresent him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    Not an atheist.
    He left that to his party "philosopher" and other close associates. He liked the pomp of teutonic paganism, while applying evolutionary philosophy to eugenics and racial supremacy.

    The German-Jewish political theorist Hannah Arendt (1906–1975) wrote [The Origins of Totalitarianism]:

    ‘Underlying the Nazis’ belief in race laws as the expression of the law of nature in man, is Darwin’s idea of man as the product of a natural development which does not necessarily stop with the present species of human being.’

    British evolutionist Sir Arthur Keith (1866–1955) wrote [Evolution and Ethics]:

    ‘To see evolutionary measures and tribal morality being applied rigorously to the affairs of a great modern nation, we must turn again to Germany of 1942. We see Hitler devoutly convinced that evolution provides the only real basis for a national policy. … The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’

    Alan Bullock (Baron Bullock) (1914–2004) wrote in Hitler: A Study in Tyranny:

    ‘The basis of Hitler’s political beliefs was a crude Darwinism.’

    The book The Coming of the Third Reich (Penguin, 2003) by British historian Richard Evans (1947– ) also argues that the eugenics movement and social Darwinism gained wide acceptance among German élites starting in the last decades of the 19th century. Evans argued that this new secularist world view overturned the Judeo-Christian teaching ‘of the sanctity of marriage and parenthood, or the equal value of every being endowed with an immortal soul …’ He documents that the German Darwinist philosopher Alexander Tille (1866–1912) strongly advocated the killing of the mentally and physically unfit and leaving congenital children's diseases untreated ‘so that the weak could be eliminated from the chain of heredity.’ Evans concluded that the Nazis’ anti-Semitism and racial hygiene were extensions of this secularization of society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    Yes, and a lot of others weren't. The German population wasn't.
    Thanks to liberal theology, they weren't Christian either in any way that has a semblance to Christ's actual teachings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    Atheists don't like pagan rituals either.
    They didn't mind them as a way of recruiting the youth.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  4. #34
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Are you saying that one cannot be a Christian and believe in evolution, Jono?

  5. #35
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Yet as amply documented, true (biblical) Christianity was very rare.


    You have one quote from a scientist who said he didn't see any "biblical" christianity. There are several problems with what you have the audacity to call "amply documented" evidence.

    1. The reporter is not an expert in theology or religious practice
    2. The comment is clearly anecdotal and was not based on a systematic survey of religious beliefs
    3. The rest of the world uncontroversially considers Lutheran and Catholic churches as christian.

    Time to gather some real evidence Jono since you seem to be using "aply documented" as a synonymous with "dodgy".

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Brannon Howse has pointed out the following anti-Christian actions by the Nazis, which have disturbing parallels for the way militant misotheists want to marginalize Christianity in the USA:
    This is funny as it highlights how brainless right wing fruitloops like you and Howse actually are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    1. Hitler eliminated Christian holidays in the schools first by calling Christmas “Yuletide.” Most American public schools now call Christmas vacation a “winter break.”
    2. Hitler outlawed school prayer in Germany . In 1962, The U.S. Supreme Court did the same for us.
    3. Hitler took Easter out of schools and instead honored that time of year as the beginning of spring. It has likewise become common for schools in America to refer to time off at Easter as “spring break.”
    State schools should be inclusive of all religions (and atheism) which means religious feast celebrations are not appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Hitler controlled the church using intimidation and threats. A half-century ago, U.S. Senator and Senate Majority Leader Lyndon Baines Johnson, promoted a bill that included an amendment to use the Internal Revenue Service to remove the non-profit status of a church that speaks against the election of any specific political candidate.
    Clearly if the church is being used as an organ of a political party the non-profit status should be questioned. I don't know the specifics of the LBJ bill but there is nothing in that anecdote which makes me think LBJ was the devil. More likely the author of the list was just scrapping around for anything to make his case look credible when really all he was apposed to was a separation of church and state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Hitler enticed thousands of pastors to promote paganism in their congregations. Neopaganism is one of the fastest growing religions in America , doubling every 18 months according to a June 2008 article in The Denver Post. Many American church-goers practice paganism such as “Christian” yoga, contemplative prayer, and walking a labyrinth. As evidence that church doors continue to open further to aberrant beliefs, a 2008 survey found that 57% of evangelicals do not believe Jesus Christ is the only way to God.
    This seems pretty unsubstantiated and waffly. How did Hitler entice these pastors and which neopagan practices are we talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Hitler prevented dissenters from using radio to challenge his worldview. Many powerful liberals in America have made clear their intent to reintroduce the “Fairness Doctrine” that would require conservative and religious radio stations to offer equal time to anti-Christian, anti-conservative worldviews.
    Ummm.... Isn't the fairness doctrine the opposite of what Hitler did?

    The purpose is sure for both sides to get air time. The religious stations, by opposing the fairness doctrine, are doing exactly what Hitler did. IE preventing dissenters from challenging their worldview on radio.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Pastors who spoke against Hitler’s worldview and his murderous regime found themselves on trial and frequently imprisoned for “Abuse of Pulpit.” In America , hate-crime legislation has the potential to criminalize Christians and pastors who speak out against the homosexual agenda.
    Under the laws of the Third Reich it was illegal to criticise the regime and it is not surprising pastor who used the pulpit to do so were arrested. In America (and most civilised countries) it is illegal to incite criminal activity and particularly incite crimes of violence. Pastors in such countries should not be surprised if they break the law in their sermons to be arrested. Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    You know what I mean. His closest associates then.
    Many of whom were also Christians including:

    Helmut Bruckner
    Walter Buch
    Rudolf Buttman
    Dietrich Eckhart
    Hans Frank
    Wilhelm Frick
    Joseph Goebbels
    Hermann Goring
    Rudolf Hess
    Hans Hinkel
    Heinrich Himmler
    Rudolf Hoess
    Joachim Hossenfelder

    I'll stop there but there are many others (I just got up to H). There are documented quotes of all these people saying and behaving like Christians. They invoked the names of God and Christ, quoted from the bible, attended religious services. Married in the church and/or baptised children in the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    They accurately reflect what Hitler really thought. They were compiled while Hitler was alive, so would not have dared to misrepresent him.
    So you say but they were never read or endorsed by Hitler. They did not have wide circulation at the time they were compiled so any falsehoods could not be challenged. They contradicted many thing Hitler said as documented in public speeches and broadcasts. And perhaps most importantly, they portray Hitler as sympathetic to the beliefs of the editor.

    There may be some truth to them but they should be approached with suspicion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    He left that to his party "philosopher" and other close associates. He liked the pomp of teutonic paganism, while applying evolutionary philosophy to eugenics and racial supremacy.
    Many of Hitler's associates were Christian and Hitler himself is reported to have considered himself a Catholic as late as the 1940s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Thanks to liberal theology, they weren't Christian either in any way that has a semblance to Christ's actual teachings.
    You and all the other religious sects argue about those particular teachings even today. Hitler was against homosexuality so on that front he is closer to your brand of right-wing Christianity than liberal theology.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  6. #36
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    You have one quote from a scientist who said he didn't see any "biblical" christianity. There are several problems with what you have the audacity to call "amply documented" evidence.
    A man who was there, and was explicit that biblical Christianity was practically non-existent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    1. The reporter is not an expert in theology or religious practice
    2. The comment is clearly anecdotal and was not based on a systematic survey of religious beliefs
    3. The rest of the world uncontroversially considers Lutheran and Catholic churches as christian.
    But the German churches were liberal, i.e. Bible denying. The pastors who followed the Bible were imprisoned or killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Clearly if the church is being used as an organ of a political party the non-profit status should be questioned.
    Apparently not if they promote Obama.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Ummm.... Isn't the fairness doctrine the opposite of what Hitler did?
    No, exactly the same: government decrees on what private radio stations must broadcast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    The purpose is sure for both sides to get air time.
    If it's a private station, it's none of the government's business to mandate what is said. And of course, there will be no similar law for the leftist media to print balancing conservative commentary. E.g. the NYT published an article by Obamov but refused one from McCain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    The religious stations, by opposing the fairness doctrine, are doing exactly what Hitler did. IE preventing dissenters from challenging their worldview on radio.
    What crap. There is nothing to prevent challenge on radio. But nothing about free speech compels someone to provide you with a microphone, just that the government can't prevent you from saying it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Under the laws of the Third Reich it was illegal to criticise the regime and it is not surprising pastor who used the pulpit to do so were arrested. In America (and most civilised countries) it is illegal to incite criminal activity and particularly incite crimes of violence. Pastors in such countries should not be surprised if they break the law in their sermons to be arrested. Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's.
    Idiot. It's one thing to incite violence, but quite another to criticise the government. So Rincy actually supports the Nazi actions of persecuting dissenting pastors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Many of whom were also Christians including:

    Helmut Bruckner
    Walter Buch
    Rudolf Buttman
    Dietrich Eckhart
    Hans Frank
    Wilhelm Frick
    Joseph Goebbels
    Hermann Goring
    Rudolf Hess
    Hans Hinkel
    Heinrich Himmler
    Rudolf Hoess
    Joachim Hossenfelder
    What crap. Göbbels was an out and out atheist. Frank made something akin to a deathbed conversion (i.e. when he was sentenced to death) which recognized that his actions during the dritter Reich were NOT Christian. Gustav Gilbert documented in The Nuremberg Diaries that Göring wanted nothing to do with the chaplains or chapel during the Nuremberg trial. Since Rincy was wrong on those I could check easily, I have no reason to trust him on the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    There are documented quotes of all these people saying and behaving like Christians.
    Christianity forbids murder and worshipping other Gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    They invoked the names of God and Christ, quoted from the bible, attended religious services. Married in the church and/or baptised children in the same.
    Hatch, match and dispatch churchians are not necessarily Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    So you say but they were never read or endorsed by Hitler.
    Who says? Bormann was a close associate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    They did not have wide circulation at the time they were compiled so any falsehoods could not be challenged. They contradicted many thing Hitler said as documented in public speeches and broadcasts.
    Well, duh! That's the point. What he said to his friends shows his real views as opposed to his opportunism in his speeches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    And perhaps most importantly, they portray Hitler as sympathetic to the beliefs of the editor.
    Yet Hitler chose this editor as a close associate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    There may be some truth to them but they should be approached with suspicion.
    What should be approached with caution is treating opportunistic power-hungry speeches as reflecting Hitler's real views.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    You and all the other religious sects argue about those particular teachings even today.
    No argument at all: biblical teachings are unambiguous. So the question is whether one follows Christ in "Scripture cannot be broken" or follow the Rincy/Nazi preference of reinterpreting (i.e. disbelieving) what conflicts with the fad of the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Hitler was against homosexuality so on that front he is closer to your brand of right-wing Christianity than liberal theology.
    Yet he wouldn't have risen to power without the homosexual SA leader Ernst Röhm.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  7. #37
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Christian is as Christian does. You can show me a Christian by his words, but I'll show you a Christian by his deeds. Words and deeds need to be in sync. Everyone can see that ... its quite obvious ... Hitler was not Christian. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Those suggesting otherwise should therefore stop being ridiculous.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  8. #38
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Snail King
    Christian is as Christian does. You can show me a Christian by his words, but I'll show you a Christian by his deeds. Words and deeds need to be in sync. Everyone can see that ... its quite obvious ... Hitler was not Christian. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Those suggesting otherwise should therefore stop being ridiculous.
    The problem with your position is you can avoid any inconvenient atrocity by saying, "oh, he wasn't being christian THEN".

    The history of Christianity is full of persecution of various groups. Particularly, Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, women and indigenous populations. You seek to distance your brand of Christianity from these persecutions, and I understand that.

    However, if Jono is going to say silly things like the entire population of Germany was non-christian in the 1930s and 1940s but were Christian prior to that and subsequent to that. Then he deserves to have the facts brought up that show that

    1. Most Germans continued to practice their Christian religion during the Third Reich

    2. Hitler and other prominent members were to all outward appearances also Christians

    3. Even if Hitler was completely atheist (which I don't believe for a minute) then he still made no outward indication of this conviction and rather maintained a pretense of Christianity which can only be justified if the German people were themselves primarily Christian.


    The problem with your Forrest Gump position is there is no one authoratative Christian religion. Everyone thinks there is the right one, of course. But there are many and so you cannot discount another interpretation.

    For homework read Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies" and tell me if Luther was a Christian according to the Forrest Gump position.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  9. #39
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    A man who was there, and was explicit that biblical Christianity was practically non-existent.
    What crap. Only an idiot would repeat the same specious testimonial when the problems with that testimonial has been repeated many times.

    1. We don't know what he meant by "biblical Christianity"
    2. He was not an expert in theology or religion,
    3. he did not undertake any systematic survey of beliefs.

    All you have is opinion of a non expert who experienced a minute number of Germans directly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    But the German churches were liberal, i.e. Bible denying. The pastors who followed the Bible were imprisoned or killed.
    What crap. Liberal doesn't mean bible denying except your your myopic religious right wing groupies. Priests and pastors were jailed for a number of offenses but following the Bible is not one I've heard of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Apparently not if they promote Obama.
    What crap (and off topic).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    No, exactly the same: government decrees on what private radio stations must broadcast.
    The radio station may only broadcast by right of a license purchased from the government and thus the radio frequency is ultimately owned by the people. "Private" radio stations can't broadcast whatever they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    If it's a private station, it's none of the government's business to mandate what is said. And of course, there will be no similar law for the leftist media to print balancing conservative commentary. E.g. the NYT published an article by Obamov but refused one from McCain.
    What crap. The radio frequency is owned by the people and the radio station is only given license to broadcast according to the terms and conditions of the license. It is the business of the people to regulate radio.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    What crap. There is nothing to prevent challenge on radio. But nothing about free speech compels someone to provide you with a microphone, just that the government can't prevent you from saying it.
    What crap. See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Idiot. It's one thing to incite violence, but quite another to criticise the government. So Rincy actually supports the Nazi actions of persecuting dissenting pastors.
    What crap. Either you are pretending to be stupid or you are actually stupid. I have a theory on which but won't share it here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    What crap. Göbbels was an out and out atheist.
    What crap. Goebells was raised a catholic and retained his faith in public at least until 1936. And invoked Christian arguments in public speeches at least until this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Frank made something akin to a deathbed conversion (i.e. when he was sentenced to death) which recognized that his actions during the dritter Reich were NOT Christian.
    What crap. Frank was raised by one Catholic and one Protestant and his "deathbed conversion" was only from one brand of Christianity to another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Gustav Gilbert documented in The Nuremberg Diaries that Göring wanted nothing to do with the chaplains or chapel during the Nuremberg trial.
    What crap. Goring not wanting to have anything to do with the Nuremberg chaplains is hardly proof of anything. He was a prisoner and refused to talk to the chaplains appointed by his captors.

    I myself am not what you might call a churchgoer, but I have gone now and then, and have always considered I belonged to the Church and have always had those functions over which the Church presides-- marriage, christening, burial, et cetera-- carried out in my house by the Church.

    Goring - The Nuremberg Trials, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Since Rincy was wrong on those I could check easily, I have no reason to trust him on the others.
    What crap. I was wrong on none of them and since Jono was incorrect on every single one of his supposed rebuttals everything else he has ever said is also probably wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Christianity forbids murder and worshipping other Gods.
    What crap. Some Christians share your view but that is not universal. Are you saying that anyone who has ever killed another person or ordered that killing cannot be a christian?

    This would include police, judicary, soldiers, governments during war time. Etc, etc, etc.

    Also the bible contains passages where God himself instructs men to kill other men, women and children.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Hatch, match and dispatch churchians are not necessarily Christians.
    What crap. We have been through this furfy before. Just because someone doesn't conform to Jono's narrow ideal of what a Christian is, doesn't make them non-Christian. There is an everyday usage of the word Christian which includes Lutheran and Catholics such as those which undertook the holocaust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Who says? Bormann was a close associate.
    Well duh! Other than the editor of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Well, duh! That's the point. What he said to his friends shows his real views as opposed to his opportunism in his speeches.
    What crap. What Bormann said he said is hardly evidence at all. By legal standards it would not be admissible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Yet Hitler chose this editor as a close associate.
    Whether Hitler chose Bormann or the other way around is not clear. What is clear are the problems I outlined already a number of times.

    Lack of corroberation
    Lack of opportunity of Bormann's "transcripts" to be challenged by contemporaries
    Contradiction with the contents of Bormann's transcripts and quote from other sources (both public speeches and anecdotal private conversations)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    What should be approached with caution is treating opportunistic power-hungry speeches as reflecting Hitler's real views.
    It is not only public speeches where Hitler invokes God. He remained a paid up member of the Catholic church. He is referred to as a Catholic by others including Goring during the Nuremburg Trial. There is testimony Hitler also referred to himself as a life-long Catholic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    No argument at all: biblical teachings are unambiguous.
    What crap. If that were true why are there so many different Christian churches with different rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Yet he wouldn't have risen to power without the homosexual SA leader Ernst Röhm.
    I would say that Ernst Röhm's sexuality was hardly an issue.

    The point is the Nazi's persecuted homosexuals in much the same way that Christians like you would wish to continue.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  10. #40
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    this thread has really gone to the w.c.

  11. #41
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    this thread has really gone to the w.c.
    Of course. This is what happens when misotheists like Windy try to prove that Hitler and other Nazis were Christians, ignoring the copious evidence to the contrary. I wonder what other murderers Windy takes at their words — selected from power-seeking opportunistic speeches.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  12. #42
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    this thread has really gone to the w.c.
    I actually set this split thread up as one that could spend its whole life there if it wanted, since the whole topic area is not especially conducive to good debating and discussions of a similar kind often make a mess on other threads.

  13. #43
    CC Candidate Master Mokum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    this thread has really gone to the w.c.
    It is clearly impossible to have a serious discussion with someone like Jono, with his arrogant nonsense statements and spurious resources. But it is ammusing nevertheless. Next he will announce that Hitler was a lefty. Perhaps he is right, three times right is left after all.
    Let me have some sausage
    Fyodor Dostoyevsky - The Brothers Karamazov

  14. #44
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    What crap. Only an idiot would repeat the same specious testimonial when the problems with that testimonial has been repeated many times.
    Only a moron would take selected portions from Hitler's opportunistic speeches rather than his actions or what he said to his close associates, or take phrases like "positive Christianity" at face value although it meant substituting Hitler for Christ. Windy probably also believes that "People's Democratic Republic of ..." really means something other than communist dictatorship.

    Robert Wistrich, the professor of modern Jewish history at Hebrew University, wrote in Hitler and the Holocaust:

    Indeed, the leading Nazis … Hitler, Himmler, Rosenberg, Goebbels and Bormann … were all fanatically anti-Christian, though this was partly hidden from the German public. … The conviction that Judaism, Christianity and Bolshevism represented one single pathological phenomenon of decadence became a veritable leitmotif for Hitler around the time that the "Final Solution" had been conceived of as an operational plan.

    See also some of the Nuremberg Trial documentation on the master plan to exterminate Christianity and "The Nazi's persecution of religion as a war crime: The OSS's response within the Nuremberg Trials Process" Rutgers University. The first installment, The Nazi Master Plan; The Persecution of Christian Churches, showed how the Nazis planned to supplant Christianity with a religion based on racial superiority:

    "Important leaders of the National Socialist party would have liked … complete extirpation of Christianity and the substitution of a purely racial religion."

    The second document documented the plan of the Nazi "philosopher" Alfred Rosenberg, Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories and head of the Centre of National Socialist Ideological and Educational Research, which included:

    • The National Reich church is determined to exterminate irrevocably and by every means the strange and foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800.
    • The National Reich church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany as well as the publication of Sunday papers, pamphlets, publications and books of a religious nature.
    • The National Reich church does not acknowledge forgiveness of sins. It represents the standpoint which it will always proclaim that a sin once committed will be ruthlessly punished by the honorable and indestructible laws of nature and punishment will follow during the sinner's lifetime.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    1. We don't know what he meant by "biblical Christianity"
    Biblical Christianity means following the Bible, according to its original meaning, which can be objectively determined by the historical-grammatical hermeneutic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    What crap. Liberal doesn't mean bible denying except your your myopic religious right wing groupies. Priests and pastors were jailed for a number of offenses but following the Bible is not one I've heard of.
    It's because they followed the Bible that they opposed Hitler and his counterfeit authority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    The radio station may only broadcast by right of a license purchased from the government and thus the radio frequency is ultimately owned by the people. "Private" radio stations can't broadcast whatever they want.
    Ah yes, Windy shows his true socialist colours, wanting the government to regulate the airwaves. The USSR agreed, in the name of the people of course. Naturally, the Left aren't talking about fairness for the leftist government-funded radio and TV, only for their competition in the private sector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    What crap. The radio frequency is owned by the people and the radio station is only given license to broadcast according to the terms and conditions of the license. It is the business of the people to regulate radio.
    The best regulation is free competition. It's only because liberal talk radio has failed miserably that the Left want to use force to push liberal crap on the radio waves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    What crap. Either you are pretending to be stupid or you are actually stupid. I have a theory on which but won't share it here.
    More likely, Windy would rather use government force to restrict what's said on the radio, like Hitler and Stalin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    What crap. Frank was raised by one Catholic and one Protestant and his "deathbed conversion" was only from one brand of Christianity to another.
    No, he explicitly recognized that his Nazi atrocities were contrary to the Catholicism he professed to convert to, and repented and agreed that he deserved to hang for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Are you saying that anyone who has ever killed another person or ordered that killing cannot be a christian?
    It's certainly easy to say that murder is incompatible with Christian teachings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    This would include police, judicary, soldiers, governments during war time. Etc, etc, etc.
    Don't be a moron all your life. Not all killing is murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Also the bible contains passages where God himself instructs men to kill other men, women and children.
    Yawn, more of the same paranoia (see Outrageous Reasoning: A Closer Look at a Common Skeptical Tactic by James Patrick Holding).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Lack of opportunity of Bormann's "transcripts" to be challenged by contemporaries
    Bormann was one of Hitler's inner circle at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    It is not only public speeches where Hitler invokes God. He remained a paid up member of the Catholic church. He is referred to as a Catholic by others including Goring during the Nuremburg Trial.
    Prove it. I've documented my case from Gilbert's Nuremberg diaries, and he was the psychologist who examined the defendants at length.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    What crap. If that were true why are there so many different Christian churches with different rules?
    Some are wrong. And when maths problems are receive many different solutions from students, it would prove that there was no one correct solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I would say that Ernst Röhm's sexuality was hardly an issue.
    It shows that Röhm, like many of the other early Nazis who were homosexuals, didn't perceive the Nazis as a threat to their sexuality.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 01-02-2009 at 02:44 PM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  15. #45
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    It is clearly impossible to have a serious discussion with someone like Jono, with his arrogant nonsense statements and spurious resources.
    What would you know? If you swallow the "Hitler was a Christian" nonsense, you're as stupid as Rincy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    But it is ammusing nevertheless. Next he will announce that Hitler was a lefty.
    He was. As Thomas Sowell points out:

    The Fascists were completely against individualism in general and especially against individualism in a free market economy. Their agenda included minimum wage laws, government restrictions on profit-making, progressive taxation of capital, and "rigidly secular" schools.

    Unlike the Communists, the Fascists did not seek government ownership of the means of production. They just wanted the government to call the shots as to how businesses would be run.

    ...

    Another literary giant and Fabian socialist, George Bernard Shaw, also expressed his admiration for Mussolini — as well as for Hitler and Stalin, because they "did things," instead of just talk. In Germany, the Nazis followed in the wake of the Italian Fascists, adding racism in general and anti-semitism in particular, neither of which was part of Fascism in Italy or in Franco's Spain.


    Even the Nazi variant of Fascism found favor on the left when it was only a movement seeking power in the 1920s.

    W.E.B. DuBois was so taken with the Nazi movement that he put swastikas on the cover of a magazine he edited, despite complaints from Jewish readers.

    ...


    In short, during the 1920s and the early 1930s, Fascism was not only looked on favorably by the left but recognized as having kindred ideas, agendas and assumptions.


    Only after Hitler and Mussolini disgraced themselves, mainly by their brutal military aggressions in the 1930s, did the left distance themselves from these international pariahs.

    ...

    If by conservatism you mean belief in free markets, limited government, and traditional morality, including religious influences, then these are all things that the Fascists opposed just as much as the left does today.

    Hitler and the Communists were fighting over the same leftist territory of government control of business and the press. It is a lie to call Hitler "right".
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 01-02-2009 at 02:52 PM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

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