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  1. #16
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    I stabbed a communion host, a blessed one, at the public speaking venue in Sydney, the Domain, and it did not bleed and cry out like Catholic mobs reakon it used when Jews stabbed it. The Catholics accused the Jews of killing the child Jesus and they would go on a pogrom killin Jews, wonderful people those Catholics were
    Crap. Rabbi David Dalin's book The Myth of Hitler's Pope documents that the medieval popes were at the forefront of denouncing the "host desecration" and "blood" libels (well, duh, Jewish food laws prohibit consumption of blood). But such antisemitic libels are very popular in the Islamic world. Two of my relatives, the father and son Samuel and Joseph Sarfati (d. 16th C) were leaders in the Jewish community and physicians to popes. See also Christian opposition to antisemitism
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 31-01-2009 at 05:01 PM.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

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  2. #17
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Yawn, stretch, Rincy takes Hitler at his lying word, and not the word of his friends, biographers, Nuremberg prosecutors and Churchill that he and the Nazis hated Christianity, which is why many of the early Nazis were homosexuals.
    Yawn, no stretch required. Regardless of Hitler's actual faith (which Jono cannot prove one way or another). Hitler frequently appealed to the religious beliefs of the German population to justify the persecution, ni much the same way Martin Luther did.

    Hitler often ended his wartime radio broadcasts with a prayer, a few examples of which I've attached here...

    Only when the entire German people become a single community of sacrifice can we expect and hope that Almighty God will help us. The Almighty has never helped a lazy man. He does not help the coward. He does not help a people that cannot help itself.

    The principle applies here, help yourselves and Almighty God will not deny you his assistance.

    -Adolf Hitler, in a broadcast from Berlin, 03 Oct.1941

    Thus the home-front need not be warned, and the prayer of this priest of the devil, the wish that Europe may be punished with Bolshevism, will not be fulfilled, but rather that the prayer may be fulfilled: "Lord God, give us the strength that we may retain our liberty for our children and our children's children, not only for ourselves but also for the other peoples of Europe, for this is a war which we all wage, this time, not for our German people alone, it is a war for all of Europe and with it, in the long run, for all of mankind."
    -Adolf Hitler, 30 Jan. 1942, in Berlin

    May therefore God give us the strength to continue to do our duty and with this prayer we bow in homage before our dead heroes, before those whom they have left behind in bereavement, and before all the other victims of this war.

    -Adolf Hitler, in prayer at the end of a radio address on 15 March 1942.

    Few people can begin to imagine the fate which would have overtaken Germany had the assassination attempt succeeded. I myself thank Providence and my Creator not for preserving me - my life consists only of worry and work for my People - I thank him only for allowing me to continue to bear this burden of worry, and to carry on my work to the best of my ability.

    -Adolf Hitler, speaking about the attempt to kill him, in a radio broadcast on 20 July 1944

    God the Almighty has made our nation. By defending its existence we are defending His work....

    Only He can relieve me of this duty Who called me to it. It was in the hand of Providence to snuff me out by the bomb that exploded only one and a half meters from me on July 20, and thus to terminate my life's work. That the Almighty protected me on that day I consider a renewed affirmation of the task entrusted to me....

    Therefore, it is all the more necessary on this twelfth anniversary of the rise to power to strengthen the heart more than ever before and to steel ourselves in the holy determination to wield the sword, no-matter where and under what circumstances, until final victory crowns our efforts....

    In the years to come I shall continue on this road, uncompromisingly safeguarding my people's interests, oblivious to all misery and danger, and filled with the holy conviction that God the Almighty will not abandon him who, during all his life, had no desire but to save his people from a fate it had never deserved, neither by virtue of its number nor by way of its importance....

    In vowing ourselves to one another, we are entitled to stand before the Almighty and ask Him for His grace and His blessing. No people can do more than that everybody who can fight, fights, and that everybody who can work, works, and that they all sacrifice in common, filled with but one thought: to safeguard freedom and national honor and thus the future of life.

    -Adolf Hitler, in a radio address, 30 Jan. 1945

    We have suffered so much that it only steels us to fanatical resolve to hate Our enemies a thousand times more and to regard them for what they are destroyers of an eternal culture and annihilators of humanity. Out of this bate a holy will is born to oppose these destroyers of our existence with all the strength that God has given us and to crush them in the end. During its 2,000-year history our people has survived so many terrible times that we have no doubt that we will also master our present plight.

    -Adolf Hitler, in a recorded radio address, 24 Feb. 1945


    From these quotes (all post 1939) Hitler certainly doesn't sound like an atheist. And even if he was he was an atheist then he was trying very hard not to sound like one. The only reason for such behaviour would be if the majority of Germans were themselves theist Christians.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #18
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Yawn, no stretch required. Regardless of Hitler's actual faith (which Jono cannot prove one way or another).
    Of course, which is why I point to his anti-Christian actions and opportunistic speeches, as well as what he said to his closest friends

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Hitler frequently appealed to the religious beliefs of the German population to justify the persecution, in much the same way Martin Luther did.
    As I said, Rincy takes Hitler at his word (at least his public words not those to his closest friends); I judge him by his actions, as do his biographers, Churchill, Nuremberg prosecutors, who know about his real hatred of Christianity.

    Indian-born American author Dinesh D’Souza (1961– ) writes in What’s So Great About Christianity?:

    In his multi-volume history of the Third Reich, historian Richard Evans writes that “the Nazis regarded the churches as the strongest and toughest reservoirs of ideological opposition to the principles they believed in.” Once Hitler and the Nazis came to power, they launched a ruthless drive to subdue and weaken the Christian churches in Germany. Evans points out that after 1937 the policies of Hitler’s government became increasingly anti-religious.

    The Nazis stopped celebrating Christmas, and the Hitler Youth recited a prayer thanking the Fuhrer rather than God for their blessings. Clergy regarded as “troublemakers” were ordered not to preach, hundreds of them were imprisoned, and many were simply murdered. Churches were under constant Gestapo surveillance. The Nazis closed religious schools, forced Christian organizations to disband, dismissed civil servants who were practicing Christians, confiscated church property, and censored religious newspapers. Poor Sam Harris [atheist propagandist] cannot explain how an ideology that Hitler and his associates perceived as a repudiation of Christianity can be portrayed as a “culmination” of Christianity.

    I also judge him by the actual evolutionary propaganda his regime used to justify eugenics and racism, including:


    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    From these quotes (all post 1939) Hitler certainly doesn't sound like an atheist. And even if he was he was an atheist then he was trying very hard not to sound like one. The only reason for such behaviour would be if the majority of Germans were themselves theist Christians.
    Not at all. No different from anti-Christian Dems in the states who talk crap like "God's green earth" to fool some non-discerning liberal churchians, while atheists love Dems because they know they don't mean it.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

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  4. #19
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Yawn, stretch, Rincy takes Hitler at his lying word, and not the word of his friends, biographers, Nuremberg prosecutors and Churchill that he and the Nazis hated Christianity, which is why many of the early Nazis were homosexuals.
    Are you suggesting Nazis became gay, or that some people who happened to be gay were attracted to Nazism because of its supposedly anti-Christian nature?

  5. #20
    CC Candidate Master Mokum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Yawn, stretch, Rincy takes Hitler at his lying word...
    Rincewind mentions good Nazi Christians that killed millions, not Hitler. As you yourself admit, at least in appearance Hitler remained a Christian. Why? Because the German people where Christian, and he needed them. 12 years Nazi regime (or any regime) was never going to change that. Of course, if Hitler was a Christian, he was hardly a very devout one. His anti-Semitism was based on race, not religion, after all, so Jesus, being a Jew, would have ended up the same way every as every other Jew in Hitler's Reich. But that doesn't make him an atheist. Hitler believed in providence and that he was chosen to lead the German nation to greatness. It was his time, he was put in the position of Fuhrer, and until the very end he believed he couldn’t fail because of that. So if he was an atheist, he was hardly a very devout one. And of course the Nazi’s brought back a lot of old pagan Germanic rituals as well, often fanatically. All that is still irrelevant. The German population was by and large Christian, and it was within a Christian nation that the atrocities of WWII occurred. But it wasn’t because they were Christians that this could happen either, and to try to draw any type of moral conclusions from the supposed (non)religion of Hitler, the Nazis and the Germans is futile. And if not futile, it still does not proof that God exists.
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  6. #21
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Not at all. No different from anti-Christian Dems in the states who talk crap like "God's green earth" to fool some non-discerning liberal churchians, while atheists love Dems because they know they don't mean it.
    Ipse dixit.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  7. #22
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    Of course, if Hitler was a Christian, he was hardly a very devout one. His anti-Semitism was based on race, not religion, after all, so Jesus, being a Jew, would have ended up the same way every as every other Jew in Hitler's Reich.
    That is debatable. I have also mention in earlier posts about the dejudification of the bible by the Third Reich particularly by the group calling themselves Deutsche Christen which tried to start this story that Jesus was the offspring of a German soldier in the Roman army and thus not ethnically Jewish.

    All complete hogwash of course but those inclined to believe what they read on faith are not inoculated against such shenanigans.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  8. #23
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Moderation notice

    This split thread has been created as a new home for:

    * Discussions about whether Hitler and/or the Nazis were Christian/atheist/other.

    * Discussions exploring, debating or debunking claimed links between other mass-murderous regimes and either religion or atheism.

    * Other stuff along vaguely similar lines.

  9. #24
    CC Candidate Master Mokum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    That is debatable. I have also mention in earlier posts about the dejudification of the bible by the Third Reich particularly by the group calling themselves Deutsche Christen which tried to start this story that Jesus was the offspring of a German soldier in the Roman army and thus not ethnically Jewish.

    All complete hogwash of course but those inclined to believe what they read on faith are not inoculated against such shenanigans.
    Which seems to me a reaction from Christians to reconcile their beliefs with the inevitable conclusion of Hitlers racism. I have never seen any evidence that Hitler was particularly concerned about this, but yes, of course a lot of Nazi Christians would have been.
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  10. #25
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justaknight
    A/C, you stabbed nothing and be serious! Antisemitism was the main cause of all Jewis suffering throughout the ages culminating in the holocaust. Christianity sought to understand this in order to ensure it did not happen again. Antisemitism was NOT a Christian invention and look at all those serious efforts of Catholicism to reconcile Christians and Jews! It is good, however, that you, an enemy of the State of Israel, saw the light acknowledging pogroms against the Jews. Usually, you present the case as a Zionist propaganda!
    Taking the last sentence first, I have never presented the Holocaust as Nazi propa - not even Mike Baron would accuse me of that. Indeed I have had printed in public journals years ago, like 15 years, admonishing people who did such and also I stood up to anti-semitics. How about a little apology for that one.

    I did stab something - I have told this boring story before, KB will vouch for that. A Catholic got upset and threw a punch at me, me with the host in my hand I put my hand up to defend myself and the Catholic hit the host breaking it up into hundreds of tiny fragments. Then when I told him that he had just smashed Jesus he had to be dragged off me. Suffer little atheists to come unto me.

    What history have you been reading that anti-semitism was not a Christian invention - they blamed the Jews for killing their Christ and the rest is history. I have always honoured Jews for their contributions down the ages, just not what they have done in Isreal, by the right-wingers, the left-wingers were the best once but they have mutated. Shows that no one is perfect.

  11. #26
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Perhaps the c.20 was not as bad as everyone says it was...

    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  12. #27
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    Taking the last sentence first, I have never presented the Holocaust as Nazi propa - not even Mike Baron would accuse me of that. Indeed I have had printed in public journals years ago, like 15 years, admonishing people who did such and also I stood up to anti-semitics. How about a little apology for that one.

    1) are you serious? where the hell do I say you presented Holocaust as Nazi (???) propaganda? or zionist propaganda as you might wanted to say? No apologies mate, I am saying here clearly and i quote

    It is good, however, that you, an enemy of the State of Israel, saw the light acknowledging pogroms against the Jews. Usually, you present the case as a Zionist propaganda! Meaning that you actually comparing and finding equal Nazi and Jewish atrocities.
    Can I give you a typical example?
    If yes, I will!

    A/C Israel restraints amounts to killing 10:1, about on par with the Nazi SS - the Star of David about a 3/4 length behind the Swastika

    This is only a small example of this attitude as it was expressed in a thread here on 22/08/06


    I did stab something - I have told this boring story before, KB will vouch for that. A Catholic got upset and threw a punch at me, me with the host in my hand I put my hand up to defend myself and the Catholic hit the host breaking it up into hundreds of tiny fragments. Then when I told him that he had just smashed Jesus he had to be dragged off me. Suffer little atheists to come unto me.

    2) What on earth were you doing with a host in your hand? maybe you grabbed it from a priest giving the other person a reason to be infuriated?

    What history have you been reading that anti-semitism was not a Christian invention - they blamed the Jews for killing their Christ and the rest is history. I have always honoured Jews for their contributions down the ages, just not what they have done in Isreal, by the right-wingers, the left-wingers were the best once but they have mutated. Shows that no one is perfect.
    3) Obviously, you have either not read your history books or you are closing your eyes to historical facts...

    Antiochus IV Epiphanes (Epiphanes - distinguished or prominent in Classical Greek)
    Phoenicians
    Assyrians
    Dynasties of Pharaos
    Islam

    Were they all Christians?

    No apology!
    Last edited by ER; 31-01-2009 at 10:40 PM.
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  13. #28
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    Rincewind mentions good Nazi Christians that killed millions, not Hitler. As you yourself admit, at least in appearance Hitler remained a Christian.
    No, made some Christian noises. He was rather like Obama, telling people what they want to hear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    Why? Because the German people where Christian, and he needed them.
    As I've documented, biblical christianity was very rare in Germany, the home of liberal theology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    12 years Nazi regime (or any regime) was never going to change that. Of course, if Hitler was a Christian, he was hardly a very devout one.
    He wasn't one at all, but an anti-Christian who wanted to destroy Christianity and turn churches into temples of Nazism, as shown by his statements to his friends and the Nuremberg documents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    His anti-Semitism was based on race, not religion, after all, so Jesus, being a Jew, would have ended up the same way every as every other Jew in Hitler's Reich.
    Exactly. Many Jewish Christians were gassed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    But that doesn't make him an atheist.
    He was an evolutionary pagan. A lot of other leading Nazis were outright atheists. At the Nuremberg Trial, Hermann Göring had no time for religion, and Alfred Rosenberg, the Nazi ‘philosopher’, declared himself an atheist to Gustave Gilbert, the psychologist who interviewed the Nuremberg defendants at length. Hitler's buddy Benito Mussolini was also well known as a rabid antitheist, challenging God to strike him dead if He existed.

    The viciously anti-Jewish propagandist and pornographer, Julius Streicher, complained that Christian teachings have stood in the way of ‘racial solution of the Jewish question in Europe.’ He told Gilbert that he had no time for ideas of God. Eichmann was so furious when he saw his wife reading the Bible that he threw it across the room.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    Hitler believed in providence and that he was chosen to lead the German nation to greatness.
    If anything, an anti-Christ, given that the Greek prefix "anti-" means "in place of" as well as "against".

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    It was his time, he was put in the position of Fuhrer, and until the very end he believed he couldn’t fail because of that.
    I.e. he, not Christ was the final authority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    So if he was an atheist, he was hardly a very devout one. And of course the Nazi’s brought back a lot of old pagan Germanic rituals as well, often fanatically. All that is still irrelevant.
    Not at all. Christians don't like pagan rituals. You prove my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    The German population was by and large Christian, and it was within a Christian nation that the atrocities of WWII occurred.
    Wrong again. Germany was thoroughly evolutionized, as shown by Teodor Fritsch (1852–1933), a notorious promoter of Aryan racial supremacy and author of The Handbook of the Jewish Question aka the Anti-Semitic Catechism; Allowing the Annihilation of Life Unworthy of Life (Die Freigabe der Vernichtung lebensunwerten Lebens) 1920 by two evolutionists, lawyer Karl Binding (1841–1920) and psychiatrist Alfred Hoche (1865–1943); and that propaganda film claiming "we have sinned against natural selection".

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    But it wasn’t because they were Christians that this could happen either, and to try to draw any type of moral conclusions from the supposed (non)religion of Hitler, the Nazis and the Germans is futile. And if not futile, it still does not proof that God exists.
    Rincy is the one following the gutter atheist websites inhabiting the darker hovels of the Internet with his incessant "Hitler was a Christian" bilge.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  14. #29
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokum
    Which seems to me a reaction from Christians to reconcile their beliefs with the inevitable conclusion of Hitlers racism.
    They are just following Rincy's preference: for Christians to butcher the Bible to follow anti-Christian fads, like evolutionism. The Nazis "Christians" were doing just the same thing in principle: denying biblical authority.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  15. #30
    CC Candidate Master Mokum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    No, made some Christian noises. He was rather like Obama, telling people what they want to hear
    And they wanted to hear these noises because they were Christian. Which is why I said that at least in appearance Hitler was a Christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    He wasn't one at all, but an anti-Christian who wanted to destroy Christianity and turn churches into temples of Nazism, as shown by his statements to his friends and the Nuremberg documents
    Hitler had no friends, and the table talk transcripts have not stood the test of time, but no matter, Hitler was not a very nice guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    He was an evolutionary pagan
    Not an atheist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    A lot of other leading Nazis were outright atheists.
    Yes, and a lot of others weren't. The German population wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Not at all. Christians don't like pagan rituals. You prove my point.
    Atheists don't like pagan rituals either.
    Last edited by Mokum; 31-01-2009 at 11:20 PM.
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