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  1. #1
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    Is Jesus of Nazereth, the Messiah, the Son of God, also God the Son

    This thread is discuss whether the doctine of Christ being God is the most accurate interpretation of the Bible's teaching about Jesus. It is not meant to be a discussion on historical evidence for his existence or any other topic like that.

    I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, born miracalously after his mother concieved under the influence of God, through the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1:34-35)
    He did not exist before this point in the same way we did not exist before our conception. He was part of God's purpose from the being, and is spoken of prophetically throughout the Old Testament. Firstly in Genesis 3:15, where Jesus is referred to as the seed of the woman who would crush sin.

    Jesus lived a perfect life in total obedience to his Father and this obedience extended to him dieing for our sins. He was the embodiment of God's purpose (John 1:14), and his character was God's character. This meant he could say 'If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also' John 14:7.

    Jesus is now with God in heaven and is our mediator in heaven, 1 Timothy 2:5

    Scott

  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Sertez
    This thread is discuss whether the doctine of Christ being God is the most accurate interpretation of the Bible's teaching about Jesus. It is not meant to be a discussion on historical evidence for his existence or any other topic like that.

    I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, born miracalously after his mother concieved under the influence of God, through the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1:34-35)
    He did not exist before this point in the same way we did not exist before our conception.
    Then he must have lied when he said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58), and the Greek ἐγὼ εἰμί (egō eimi I am) parallels God's revelation of his name to Moses (Ex. 3:14). That's why Jesus' enemies planned to stone him.

    John must have lied when he said:

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. ...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (John 1:1–14).

    Here, the Word is clearly Jesus, and was there from the beginning, and the maker of things. These are attributes of God.

    Hebrews 1:3 calls the Son "the exact representation" of God, and v. 8 has a specific statement of the Son's divinity from God (the Father) himself:
    But of the Son he says,
    “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
    the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

    Paul calls Jesus ‘LORD’ in a number of contexts makes it very clear that it has the meaning ‘YHWH’ (Jehovah). E.g. in Romans 10:9–13:

    ‘That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”’
    Verse 13 provides the context of what ‘Lord’ means in ‘Jesus is Lord’—it is a citation of Joel 2:32:

    ‘And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.’
    Here, the Hebrew text makes it clear that it’s YHWH, yet Paul applies it to Jesus.

    In 1 Cor. 8:6, Paul writes:

    ‘Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.’
    Here, Paul is applying the famous Shema of Deut. 6:4 ‘Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.’ Paul has used the key phrase ‘one Lord’ and applied it to Jesus Christ, thus including Jesus in the divine identity. Also, phrases like ‘of’ or ‘by whom all things’ are typical Jewish formulations that express God’s relationship to creation. This is in line with the Jewish concept of Wisdom, God’s attribute, as God’s tool for creation. Yet this still retains monotheism by including Jesus within the divine identity.

    YHWH Himself said ‘I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.’ (Isaiah 43:11). So calling Jesus ‘Savior’ is logically calling Him YHWH since YHWH is the only savior.

    Jesus is also the one who said that he sends the Holy Spirit (John 15:26) and prophets (Mt. 23:34) which are uniquely divine attributes.

    Jesus also pointed out that those who don't ‘honour the Son just as they honour the Father’ do not honour the Father either (John 5:23).
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    What Jono said ... couldn't have said it better myself ... actually, I probably couldn't have said it at all ... but very well put Jono!
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Then he must have lied when he said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58), and the Greek ἐγὼ εἰμί (egō eimi I am) parallels God's revelation of his name to Moses (Ex. 3:14). That's why Jesus' enemies planned to stone him.

    John must have lied when he said:

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. ...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (John 1:1–14).

    Here, the Word is clearly Jesus, and was there from the beginning, and the maker of things. These are attributes of God.

    Hebrews 1:3 calls the Son "the exact representation" of God, and v. 8 has a specific statement of the Son's divinity from God (the Father) himself:
    But of the Son he says,
    “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
    the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

    Paul calls Jesus ‘LORD’ in a number of contexts makes it very clear that it has the meaning ‘YHWH’ (Jehovah). E.g. in Romans 10:9–13:

    ‘That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”’
    Verse 13 provides the context of what ‘Lord’ means in ‘Jesus is Lord’—it is a citation of Joel 2:32:

    ‘And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.’
    Here, the Hebrew text makes it clear that it’s YHWH, yet Paul applies it to Jesus.

    In 1 Cor. 8:6, Paul writes:

    ‘Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.’
    Here, Paul is applying the famous Shema of Deut. 6:4 ‘Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.’ Paul has used the key phrase ‘one Lord’ and applied it to Jesus Christ, thus including Jesus in the divine identity. Also, phrases like ‘of’ or ‘by whom all things’ are typical Jewish formulations that express God’s relationship to creation. This is in line with the Jewish concept of Wisdom, God’s attribute, as God’s tool for creation. Yet this still retains monotheism by including Jesus within the divine identity.

    YHWH Himself said ‘I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.’ (Isaiah 43:11). So calling Jesus ‘Savior’ is logically calling Him YHWH since YHWH is the only savior.

    Jesus is also the one who said that he sends the Holy Spirit (John 15:26) and prophets (Mt. 23:34) which are uniquely divine attributes.

    Jesus also pointed out that those who don't ‘honour the Son just as they honour the Father’ do not honour the Father either (John 5:23).
    Jono. I was aware of all these quotes before you posted them and their is nothing new in them. I will deal with them one at time in seperate posts.
    Scott

  5. #5
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Sertez
    Jono. I was aware of all these quotes before you posted them and their is nothing new in them. I will deal with them one at time in seperate posts.
    Come on Scott, how can you expect me to be aware of what you are aware of. There may be nothing new, but that's because the Deity of Christ was recognized by the Apostles and early Church Fathers almost 2000 years ago.

    Thanks, TSK
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Come on Scott, how can you expect me to be aware of what you are aware of. There may be nothing new, but that's because the Deity of Christ was recognized by the Apostles and early Church Fathers almost 2000 years ago.

    Thanks, TSK
    Jono. I think you misunderstood me, but i am not sure what you are getting at. What does TSK mean?
    Scott

  7. #7
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Sertez
    Jono. I think you misunderstood me, but i am not sure what you are getting at. What does TSK mean?
    The Snail King.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  8. #8
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    etc etc etc blah blah blah
    AC, RS made the topic of discussion for this thread perfectly clear, so find another thread to troll argue in.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  9. #9
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Moderation Notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    AC, RS made the topic of discussion for this thread perfectly clear, so find another thread to troll argue in.
    Agreed.

    I initally almost deleted AC's post for trolling as it seemed to be a one-liner then I noticed that what was going on was his usual hopeless inability to use the quote function properly and there were comments interspersed through the quoted text. However reading those I see that they were off-topic anyway and have deleted his post.

    As Ralph Sertez clearly defined in his original post this thread is for discussing whether or not Jesus being God is a correct interpretation of scripture. Debate about whether or not either existed, which AC was engaging in, is off-topic and will be deleted or moved.

  10. #10
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    Wwll done , guys

    Well put, Jono, and well moderated, Kevin!
    God exists. Short and to the point.

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Moderation Notice



    Agreed.

    I initally almost deleted AC's post for trolling as it seemed to be a one-liner then I noticed that what was going on was his usual hopeless inability to use the quote function properly and there were comments interspersed through the quoted text. However reading those I see that they were off-topic anyway and have deleted his post.

    As Ralph Sertez clearly defined in his original post this thread is for discussing whether or not Jesus being God is a correct interpretation of scripture. Debate about whether or not either existed, which AC was engaging in, is off-topic and will be deleted or moved.
    Thank you Kevin. I was just going to ignore it, but what you have done is better.
    Scott

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Then he must have lied when he said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58), and the Greek ἐγὼ εἰμί (egō eimi I am) parallels God's revelation of his name to Moses (Ex. 3:14). That's why Jesus' enemies planned to stone him.
    Jono, I don't think you should be implying that I am calling Jesus a liar, but perhaps I am too sensitive.
    I find the claim that the Greek phrase egō eimi being used in this quote is a reference to Gods name to be wrong, because of three reasons.
    1. The phrase is used many times throughout the New Testament both by Jesus, where he is clearly not intending to refer to God's name, and by others. These include, the blind man John 9:9, the angel Gabriel Luke 1:19 and the apostle Peter Acts 10:21. There is nothing special about the phrase it just means I am.
    2. Jesus was not talking about whether he was God or not. He was trying to convince the Jews that he had more authority than Abraham. He quite clearly refers to the Father being the Jews God in verse 54, seperating himself from that identity. He also refers to himself and God being two witnesses in verses 17 and 18. If they really are one in the trinity then it is only one witness.The Jews seem to particularly clueless to what he is saying and as it does not say why they tried to stone him I don't think we can say why they tried to kill him.
    3. The translation of the name of God in Exodus as I AM is not necessarily the best translation. It is probably better translated I WILL BE. I do not know Hebrew so I make this point cautiously and I guess I could quite easily be wrong.

    I will move onto John 1 next, although I am not going to have a great deal of time over the next couple of weeks. I will be occupied with helping at the Australian Juniors from tommorrow until the 13th. Can any slowness of reply please be excused.
    Scott

  13. #13
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Careful with the emphatic nature of Εγώ ειμί in classical Hellenic! Eγώ, was used in special cases as in "I am and none else"! Hellenes then, as well as in today's Modern Greek would use είμαι (contemporary use of ειμί). Εγώ είμαι is used emphatically when one wants to describe unique situations!
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  14. #14
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
    I find the claim that the Greek phrase egō eimi being used in this quote is a reference to Gods name to be wrong, because of three reasons.
    1. The phrase is used many times throughout the New Testament both by Jesus, where he is clearly not intending to refer to God's name, and by others. These include, the blind man John 9:9, the angel Gabriel Luke 1:19 and the apostle Peter Acts 10:21. There is nothing special about the phrase it just means I am.
    It is emphatic, because the Greek verbs already had information on the person—εἰμί means "I am" on its own. With the blind man, some people were questioning whether he really was the blind man or someone who looked like him, so he said "I am" as an emphatic identifier.

    More importantly, Jesus used it several times without an object and also in cases where no one doubted it was Jesus. Normally we would say "I am [something]", e.g. "I am Gabriel" as above, but Jesus simply said "I am". Sometimes the English versions hide it by "I am he" but the "he" is not in the Greek (Koinē). There are a number of these I AM statements, which also relate to God's statements in Isaiah, ani hu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
    2. Jesus was not talking about whether he was God or not. He was trying to convince the Jews that he had more authority than Abraham.
    By contrasting Abraham's γενέσθαι (genesthai) denoting that he came into existence, with His own "am" which avoids the past tense because He just exists. It is very clear that He is claiming to have pre-existed Abraham, who died long before He was born, but even more: that he didn't even come into existence. Here is a detailed study on John 8:58 and Ex. 3:14.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
    He quite clearly refers to the Father being the Jews God in verse 54, seperating himself from that identity. He also refers to himself and God being two witnesses in verses 17 and 18. If they really are one in the trinity then it is only one witness.
    Not at all: the Trinity is one God, three persons. The noted scholar N.T. Wright points out,

    In this context it is vital for our purposes that we stress one fact. Within the most fiercely monotheistic of Jewish circles throughout our period—from the Maccabaean revolt to Bar-Kochba—there is no suggestion that “monotheism” or praying the Shema, had anything to with the numerical analysis of the inner being of Israel’s god himself. It had everything to do with the two-pronged fight against paganism and dualism. Indeed, we find strong evidence during this period of Jewish groups and individuals, who, speculating on the meaning of some difficult passages of scripture (Daniel 7, for example, or Genesis 1), suggested that the divine being might encompass a plurality. Philo could speculate about the Logos as, effectively, a second divine being [ton deuteron theon]; the Similitudes of Enoch might portray the Son of Man/Messiah as an eternal divine being; but none of these show any awareness that they are transgressing normal Jewish monotheism. Nor are they. The oneness of Israel’s God, the creator, was never an analysis of this god’s inner existence, but always a polemic against paganism and dualism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
    The Jews seem to particularly clueless to what he is saying and as it does not say why they tried to stone him I don't think we can say why they tried to kill him.
    What for if not for blasphemy? It was hardly the only time, yet Jesus never attempts to correct this misunderstanding, if such it was. Nor did he correct Thomas who said to Him, "My Lord and my God".

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
    3. The translation of the name of God in Exodus as I AM is not necessarily the best translation. It is probably better translated I WILL BE. I do not know Hebrew so I make this point cautiously and I guess I could quite easily be wrong.
    The Jewish Publication Society's translation has "I AM THAT I AM", and they probably know the best rendering of the Hebrew אהיה אשר אהיה ’ehyeh ’asher ’ehyeh. The LXX, translated c. 250 BC, has ἐγὼ εἰμί ὁ ὢν (egō eimi ho ōn I am the being).

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
    I will move onto John 1 next, although I am not going to have a great deal of time over the next couple of weeks. I will be occupied with helping at the Australian Juniors from tommorrow until the 13th. Can any slowness of reply please be excused.
    Certainly. I will also likely be incommunicado from 5–9.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  15. #15
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    My Christmas article for this year: The Incarnation: Why did God become Man?
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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