Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 142
  1. #31
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    17,654
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    I suppose (unlike Carter and Sarfati) at least O'Neill has a background in history (MA in medieval literature) but he doesn't seem to know much about science.
    But then, Dr Carter and I are Ph.D. scientists. I note that RW couldn't fault the science in our paper defending geokineticism (is RW a closet geocentrist who didn't like our refutation of his theory? ). O'Neill likewise didn't get any science wrong; it is a matter of history that there were many geokineticists in the church and geocentrists among the scientists, and that the science of Galileo's time could no conclusively prove geokineticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    His blog post on why history is not science portrays a very narrow view of science and argues credibly that history is not like that but it is basically a strawman. I note too that the misconceptions listed above were not relied on in my arguments. I never claimed any of the point listed by O'Neill as misconceptions.
    Very many people do in places of influence, and they really are common misconceptions. In any case, the only reason most atheopaths raise Galileo is to tell their mandacious story of a science vs. religion conflict.
    “The best part of adopting conservatism after years of leftism, by the way, is how much easier life becomes. If you’re a conservative, facts are generally all you need to establish a case or mount an argument. If you’re a leftist, however, you always have to find a way around the facts, which is why combative lefties always sound like lawyers knowingly representing a guilty client.”—Tim Blair

  2. #32
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    20,971
    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    But then, Dr Carter and I are Ph.D. scientists. I note that RW couldn't fault the science in our paper defending geokineticism (is RW a closet geocentrist who didn't like our refutation of his theory? ). O'Neill likewise didn't get any science wrong; it is a matter of history that there were many geokineticists in the church and geocentrists among the scientists, and that the science of Galileo's time could no conclusively prove geokineticism.
    I'm not sure why you lie like this to my face Jono. I didn't even read your piece and I am not in the habit of reading let alone bothing to shoot down articles that appear in church newsletters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Very many people do in places of influence, and they really are common misconceptions. In any case, the only reason most atheopaths raise Galileo is to tell their mandacious story of a science vs. religion conflict.
    No because it actually is an example of the church exerting its influence to the detriment of human knowledge. The fact that there were other factors at play is not denied by anyone serious.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #33
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    17,654
    [Silly whinge by RW deleted]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    No because it actually is an example of the church exerting its influence to the detriment of human knowledge. The fact that there were other factors at play is not denied by anyone serious.
    As even your fellow atheist O'Neill said, a lot of it was the scientific establishment exerting its influence to the detriment of human knowledge, while many in the Church used their influence to promote the geokinetic view to the
    “The best part of adopting conservatism after years of leftism, by the way, is how much easier life becomes. If you’re a conservative, facts are generally all you need to establish a case or mount an argument. If you’re a leftist, however, you always have to find a way around the facts, which is why combative lefties always sound like lawyers knowingly representing a guilty client.”—Tim Blair

  4. #34
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    20,971
    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    As even your fellow atheist O'Neill said, a lot of it was the scientific establishment exerting its influence to the detriment of human knowledge, while many in the Church used their influence to promote the geokinetic view to the
    That fact that science is not perfectly efficient or optimal does not lay it open to the charge of being detrimental to the collection of human knowledge. Science is the best way we know of to increase human knowledge and religion has occasionally been incidentally helpful in the promotion of science but in general is not interested in the collection of knowledge but rather concerned with the reinforcement of whatever is deemed to be orthodoxy by the religious organisation in question. And so more often than not will suppress any new knowledge that challenges the orthodoxy wherever it is able. Elements can been seen of this sort of suppression or attempted suppression of Galileo's work by both the Roman and Protestant churches.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  5. #35
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    17,654
    AS262: HISTORY FOR ATHEISTS
    THOMAS SMITH, 27 July 2016
    Joining me today is Tim O’Neill. Tim has a website called History for Atheists (find it here http://historyforatheists.blogspot.com/)

    But I thought religious people had a monopoly on biased and revisionist history? Well, if Tim is right, and he makes some pretty compelling arguments, then atheists are doing their share as well. Was Giordano Bruno really killed for his scientific curiosity? Was the library of Alexandria destroyed by Christians? Did those same Christians launch us into a Dark Age? Maybe not! [Also discusses the Galileo myth in detail, the murder of Hypatia, and touched briefly on the flat earth myth]
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 21-03-2017 at 07:41 AM.
    “The best part of adopting conservatism after years of leftism, by the way, is how much easier life becomes. If you’re a conservative, facts are generally all you need to establish a case or mount an argument. If you’re a leftist, however, you always have to find a way around the facts, which is why combative lefties always sound like lawyers knowingly representing a guilty client.”—Tim Blair

  6. #36
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    20,971
    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    But I thought religious people had a monopoly on biased and revisionist history? Well, if Tim is right, and he makes some pretty compelling arguments, then atheists are doing their share as well. Was Giordano Bruno really killed for his scientific curiosity? Was the library of Alexandria destroyed by Christians? Did those same Christians launch us into a Dark Age? Maybe not! [Also discusses the Galileo myth in detail, the murder of Hypatia, and touched briefly on the flat earth myth]
    O'Neill's insistence that these myths are widely believed among atheists is curious and I would say wrong. Like any group there are misconceptions about a whole raft of subjects but is there evidence they are particularly widely held. Probably the greatest danger is regarding Bruno and Hypatia who were killed by Christians and so are taken up by some atheists as martyrs of religious intolerance and like any messiah, prophet or martyr - soon after their death legends become popular and are mistaken for history. Just look at the logical impossibilities in the gospels.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  7. #37
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    17,654
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    O'Neill's insistence that these myths are widely believed among atheists is curious and I would say wrong. Like any group there are misconceptions about a whole raft of subjects but is there evidence they are particularly widely held.
    Yet O'Neill has encountered many, as have I. The flat earth myth was even espoused by Obamov, and hardly anyone has NOT ‘learned’ that people thought that Columbus would sail off the edge of the earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Probably the greatest danger is regarding Bruno and Hypatia who were killed by Christians and so are taken up by some atheists as martyrs of religious intolerance and like any messiah, prophet or martyr — soon after their death legends become popular and are mistaken for history. Just look at the logical impossibilities in the gospels.
    Hypatia was murdered by a mob, a victim of the politics of the day, as a reprisal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Just look at the logical impossibilities in the gospels.
    There are none.
    “The best part of adopting conservatism after years of leftism, by the way, is how much easier life becomes. If you’re a conservative, facts are generally all you need to establish a case or mount an argument. If you’re a leftist, however, you always have to find a way around the facts, which is why combative lefties always sound like lawyers knowingly representing a guilty client.”—Tim Blair

  8. #38
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    20,971
    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Yet O'Neill has encountered many, as have I. The flat earth myth was even espoused by Obamov, and hardly anyone has NOT ‘learned’ that people thought that Columbus would sail off the edge of the earth.
    Anecdotes don't make good evidence especially when such anecdotes are self-serving.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Hypatia was murdered by a mob, a victim of the politics of the day, as a reprisal.
    Yes a mob of Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    There are none.
    Your mental gymnastics on the subject are well documented.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  9. #39
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    17,654
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Anecdotes don't make good evidence especially when such anecdotes are self-serving.
    You deny that Obamov spruiked this myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Yes a mob of Christians.
    Where is your evidence? The contemporary Christian historian Socrates Scholasticus admired Hypatia and was appalled by her violent murder that went against the teachings of Christ, as he said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Your mental gymnastics on the subject are well documented.
    One day RW might surprise us all and present evidence.
    “The best part of adopting conservatism after years of leftism, by the way, is how much easier life becomes. If you’re a conservative, facts are generally all you need to establish a case or mount an argument. If you’re a leftist, however, you always have to find a way around the facts, which is why combative lefties always sound like lawyers knowingly representing a guilty client.”—Tim Blair

  10. #40
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    20,971
    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    You deny that Obamov spruiked this myth?
    Are you drunk tonight? I was talking about the sentence...

    "Yet O'Neill has encountered many, as have I."

    Whether Obama said something incorect is neither for or against the belief being wide-spread and certainly not evidence of it being wide-spread among atheists (Which is Tim's shtick).

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Where is your evidence? The contemporary Christian historian Socrates Scholasticus admired Hypatia and was appalled by her violent murder that went against the teachings of Christ, as he said.
    Sure he did while describing her murder by Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    One day RW might surprise us all and present evidence.
    That's rich.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  11. #41
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    17,654
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Whether Obama said something incorect is neither for or against the belief being wide-spread and certainly not evidence of it being wide-spread among atheists (Which is Tim's shtick).
    When I give some talks, I often ask the audience who has been taught that flat-earthers opposed Columbus. Many hands always go up. And O'Neill writes:

    Inventing the Flat Earth

    Tyson can perhaps be forgiven to a certain extent. The idea that the knowledge of the shape of the earth was "lost to the Dark Ages" and only finally restored by Columbus' voyage is still commonly believed and is very much a part of the American foundation myth. No doubt like most of his generation Tyson would have have seen the 1951 Bugs Bunny cartoon "Hare We Go" in which Bugs helps Columbus prove the earth is round in the face of a medieval king's scepticism. And as recently as 1983, when Tyson was in college, Daniel Boorstin was able to write:

    "A Europe-wide phenomenon of scholarly amnesia .... afflicted the continent from A.D. 300 to at least 1300. During those centuries Christian faith and dogma suppressed the useful image of the world that had been so slowly, so painfully and so scrupulously drawn by ancient geographers." (The Discoverers, 1983, p. 100)

    Boorstin goes on to pour scorn on the "legion of Christian geographers" who followed the path of the stupid sixth century flat-earther Cosmas Indicopleustes and so plunged Europe into this millennium of ignorance. So, for some at least, the idea of the medieval belief in a flat earth remains a useful stick with which to beat those detested "Dark Ages" and Christianity's dead hand on "progress".

    Back in 2012 New Atheist blogger Donald Prothero took hold of the flat earth stick and gave Christianity a vigorous beating. Prothero is Professor of Geology at Occidental College in Los Angeles and he had just seen Alejandro Amenábar's woeful tripe Agora, so naturally he felt these things qualified him to lecture the readers of Skepticblog about history. In a post entitled "Hypatia, Agora and Religion vs. Science", he praised Amenábar's highly distorted biopic of Hypatia and used that as a jumping off point for a sermon about the alleged suppression of science by religion that was peppered with classic New Atheist bad history howlers. As I've detailed elsewhere, the result was total butchery of the facts, but he finished in grand style, with a reference to "Christians suppressing the heretical notion that the Earth is round", showing that the Medieval Flat Earth Myth is alive and kicking at the more clueless end of the New Atheist paddling pool.

    And it's easy to see why this myth is so hard for the New Atheists to resist—it conforms to every element of their pseudo historical metamyth. We have the wise and rational Greeks discovering the earth is a sphere using science. Then the terrible Christians destroying this knowledge (presumably by burning down the Great Library of Alexandria and murdering Hypatia), plunging Europe into a 1000 year Dark Age of Church oppression where the Bible must be interpreted literally at all times. And finally, a brave rationalist arising at the dawn of Modernity to boldly defy the Church and prove the Greeks right by sailing to the Americas.

    But those of us who actually care to check facts—something the New Atheists preach about but, strangely, rarely do on matters historical—know that this is all complete crap. Anyone who can bother to read Jeffrey Burton Russell's Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus and Modern Historians (1991), Google a Wikipedia article or even read Cracked.com can get a solid understanding of how the idea that the Medieval Church suppressed the concept of a spherical earth and taught that the earth was flat is a wholesale fiction that arose in the nineteenth century. They can read up on how, in 1828, the American novelist Washington Irving invented the whole idea of a conflict between the Church and Columbus to spice up the otherwise rather dull story in his fictionalised biography A History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus. This book, unfortunately, became the best selling biography of Columbus for the next century, and so fixed the myth in the English speaking world as something "everyone knows". Despite the fact it was completely made up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Sure he did while describing her murder by Christians.
    He just described the mob murder, and blamed it on the vicious partisan politics that engulfed even someone as respected as Hypatia:

    Yet even she fell a victim to the political jealousy which at that time prevailed. For as she had frequent interviews with Orestes, it was calumniously reported among the Christian populace, that it was she who prevented Orestes from being reconciled to the bishop. Some of them therefore, hurried away by a fierce and bigoted zeal, whose ringleader was a reader named Peter, waylaid her returning home, and dragging her from her carriage, they took her to the church called Caesareum, where they completely stripped her, and then murdered her with tiles [oyster shells]. After tearing her body in pieces, they took her mangled limbs to a place called Cinaron, and there burnt them.

    This affair brought not the least opprobrium, not only upon Cyril, but also upon the whole Alexandrian church. And surely nothing can be farther from the spirit of Christianity than the allowance of massacres, fights, and transactions of that sort. (Ecclesiastical History 7(15))
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 30-03-2017 at 07:44 AM.
    “The best part of adopting conservatism after years of leftism, by the way, is how much easier life becomes. If you’re a conservative, facts are generally all you need to establish a case or mount an argument. If you’re a leftist, however, you always have to find a way around the facts, which is why combative lefties always sound like lawyers knowingly representing a guilty client.”—Tim Blair

  12. #42
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    20,971
    Regarding the flat earth myth there is still no evidence that it is very widely believed. As Tim points out there are are plenty of good sources of information available so that the argument that new ones oare needed or that a crusade to convert the infidel hardly seems warranted,

    Regarding Hypatia's murders, you don't seem to dispute that she was murdered by a Christian mob and so I'm n ot sure why you are continuing to discuss it. Was she murdered by Christians? Yes. Well that's the claim so move on.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  13. #43
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    17,654
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Regarding the flat earth myth there is still no evidence that it is very widely believed. As Tim points out there are are plenty of good sources of information available so that the argument that new ones oare needed or that a crusade to convert the infidel hardly seems warranted,
    Yet his article showed that Neil deGrasse Tyson and many of his thralls do, and that this myth is widely disseminated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Regarding Hypatia's murders, you don't seem to dispute that she was murdered by a Christian mob and so I'm n ot sure why you are continuing to discuss it. Was she murdered by Christians? Yes. Well that's the claim so move on.
    It was a mob acting inconsistently with Christianity, as the cited historian says.
    “The best part of adopting conservatism after years of leftism, by the way, is how much easier life becomes. If you’re a conservative, facts are generally all you need to establish a case or mount an argument. If you’re a leftist, however, you always have to find a way around the facts, which is why combative lefties always sound like lawyers knowingly representing a guilty client.”—Tim Blair

  14. #44
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    20,971
    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Yet his article showed that Neil deGrasse Tyson and many of his thralls do, and that this myth is widely disseminated.
    Claiming that Neil deGrasse Tyson is a victim is drawing a very long bow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    It was a mob acting inconsistently with Christianity, as the cited historian says.
    It was inconsistent with the authors idea of what Christianity should be - but let's be clear they were Christians. A Christian don't stop being a Christian when they do something that offends another Christian. If that were so, then there would be no Christians.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  15. #45
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    17,654
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Claiming that Neil deGrasse Tyson is a victim is drawing a very long bow.
    He did imply that flat earth belief was widespread until 500 years ago, and he doubled down on this instead of admitting his error, this time showing that he was clueless about medieval maps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    It was inconsistent with the authors idea of what Christianity should be - but let's be clear they were Christians. A Christian don't stop being a Christian when they do something that offends another Christian. If that were so, then there would be no Christians.
    What would you know about what Christians should be? How do you know that the murderous mob were Christians? What we do know is that they were vicious political partisans.
    “The best part of adopting conservatism after years of leftism, by the way, is how much easier life becomes. If you’re a conservative, facts are generally all you need to establish a case or mount an argument. If you’re a leftist, however, you always have to find a way around the facts, which is why combative lefties always sound like lawyers knowingly representing a guilty client.”—Tim Blair

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Does God Exist?
    By Paul S in forum Religion and Science
    Replies: 5601
    Last Post: 18-04-2017, 02:30 PM
  2. Replies: 242
    Last Post: 08-03-2017, 10:16 PM
  3. Galileo fan club (Mr.G)
    By Sinister in forum Non-Chess
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 27-11-2008, 04:11 PM
  4. picking your nose
    By chesslover in forum Non-Chess
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 12-04-2004, 10:44 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •