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  1. #31
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    I suppose (unlike Carter and Sarfati) at least O'Neill has a background in history (MA in medieval literature) but he doesn't seem to know much about science.
    But then, Dr Carter and I are Ph.D. scientists. I note that RW couldn't fault the science in our paper defending geokineticism (is RW a closet geocentrist who didn't like our refutation of his theory? ). O'Neill likewise didn't get any science wrong; it is a matter of history that there were many geokineticists in the church and geocentrists among the scientists, and that the science of Galileo's time could no conclusively prove geokineticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    His blog post on why history is not science portrays a very narrow view of science and argues credibly that history is not like that but it is basically a strawman. I note too that the misconceptions listed above were not relied on in my arguments. I never claimed any of the point listed by O'Neill as misconceptions.
    Very many people do in places of influence, and they really are common misconceptions. In any case, the only reason most atheopaths raise Galileo is to tell their mandacious story of a science vs. religion conflict.
    “Conservatives these days are more geared to facts than emotions, and as individuals they seem to have a more ethical, perhaps sports-based sense of fair play.” — Camille Paglia
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

  2. #32
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    But then, Dr Carter and I are Ph.D. scientists. I note that RW couldn't fault the science in our paper defending geokineticism (is RW a closet geocentrist who didn't like our refutation of his theory? ). O'Neill likewise didn't get any science wrong; it is a matter of history that there were many geokineticists in the church and geocentrists among the scientists, and that the science of Galileo's time could no conclusively prove geokineticism.
    I'm not sure why you lie like this to my face Jono. I didn't even read your piece and I am not in the habit of reading let alone bothing to shoot down articles that appear in church newsletters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Very many people do in places of influence, and they really are common misconceptions. In any case, the only reason most atheopaths raise Galileo is to tell their mandacious story of a science vs. religion conflict.
    No because it actually is an example of the church exerting its influence to the detriment of human knowledge. The fact that there were other factors at play is not denied by anyone serious.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #33
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    [Silly whinge by RW deleted]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    No because it actually is an example of the church exerting its influence to the detriment of human knowledge. The fact that there were other factors at play is not denied by anyone serious.
    As even your fellow atheist O'Neill said, a lot of it was the scientific establishment exerting its influence to the detriment of human knowledge, while many in the Church used their influence to promote the geokinetic view to the
    “Conservatives these days are more geared to facts than emotions, and as individuals they seem to have a more ethical, perhaps sports-based sense of fair play.” — Camille Paglia
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

  4. #34
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    As even your fellow atheist O'Neill said, a lot of it was the scientific establishment exerting its influence to the detriment of human knowledge, while many in the Church used their influence to promote the geokinetic view to the
    That fact that science is not perfectly efficient or optimal does not lay it open to the charge of being detrimental to the collection of human knowledge. Science is the best way we know of to increase human knowledge and religion has occasionally been incidentally helpful in the promotion of science but in general is not interested in the collection of knowledge but rather concerned with the reinforcement of whatever is deemed to be orthodoxy by the religious organisation in question. And so more often than not will suppress any new knowledge that challenges the orthodoxy wherever it is able. Elements can been seen of this sort of suppression or attempted suppression of Galileo's work by both the Roman and Protestant churches.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  5. #35
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    AS262: HISTORY FOR ATHEISTS
    THOMAS SMITH, 27 July 2016
    Joining me today is Tim O’Neill. Tim has a website called History for Atheists (find it here http://historyforatheists.blogspot.com/)

    But I thought religious people had a monopoly on biased and revisionist history? Well, if Tim is right, and he makes some pretty compelling arguments, then atheists are doing their share as well. Was Giordano Bruno really killed for his scientific curiosity? Was the library of Alexandria destroyed by Christians? Did those same Christians launch us into a Dark Age? Maybe not! [Also discusses the Galileo myth in detail, the murder of Hypatia, and touched briefly on the flat earth myth]
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 21-03-2017 at 07:41 AM.
    “Conservatives these days are more geared to facts than emotions, and as individuals they seem to have a more ethical, perhaps sports-based sense of fair play.” — Camille Paglia
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

  6. #36
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    But I thought religious people had a monopoly on biased and revisionist history? Well, if Tim is right, and he makes some pretty compelling arguments, then atheists are doing their share as well. Was Giordano Bruno really killed for his scientific curiosity? Was the library of Alexandria destroyed by Christians? Did those same Christians launch us into a Dark Age? Maybe not! [Also discusses the Galileo myth in detail, the murder of Hypatia, and touched briefly on the flat earth myth]
    O'Neill's insistence that these myths are widely believed among atheists is curious and I would say wrong. Like any group there are misconceptions about a whole raft of subjects but is there evidence they are particularly widely held. Probably the greatest danger is regarding Bruno and Hypatia who were killed by Christians and so are taken up by some atheists as martyrs of religious intolerance and like any messiah, prophet or martyr - soon after their death legends become popular and are mistaken for history. Just look at the logical impossibilities in the gospels.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    O'Neill's insistence that these myths are widely believed among atheists is curious and I would say wrong. Like any group there are misconceptions about a whole raft of subjects but is there evidence they are particularly widely held.
    Yet O'Neill has encountered many, as have I. The flat earth myth was even espoused by Obamov, and hardly anyone has NOT ‘learned’ that people thought that Columbus would sail off the edge of the earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Probably the greatest danger is regarding Bruno and Hypatia who were killed by Christians and so are taken up by some atheists as martyrs of religious intolerance and like any messiah, prophet or martyr — soon after their death legends become popular and are mistaken for history. Just look at the logical impossibilities in the gospels.
    Hypatia was murdered by a mob, a victim of the politics of the day, as a reprisal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Just look at the logical impossibilities in the gospels.
    There are none.
    “Conservatives these days are more geared to facts than emotions, and as individuals they seem to have a more ethical, perhaps sports-based sense of fair play.” — Camille Paglia
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

  8. #38
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Yet O'Neill has encountered many, as have I. The flat earth myth was even espoused by Obamov, and hardly anyone has NOT ‘learned’ that people thought that Columbus would sail off the edge of the earth.
    Anecdotes don't make good evidence especially when such anecdotes are self-serving.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Hypatia was murdered by a mob, a victim of the politics of the day, as a reprisal.
    Yes a mob of Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    There are none.
    Your mental gymnastics on the subject are well documented.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Anecdotes don't make good evidence especially when such anecdotes are self-serving.
    You deny that Obamov spruiked this myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Yes a mob of Christians.
    Where is your evidence? The contemporary Christian historian Socrates Scholasticus admired Hypatia and was appalled by her violent murder that went against the teachings of Christ, as he said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Your mental gymnastics on the subject are well documented.
    One day RW might surprise us all and present evidence.
    “Conservatives these days are more geared to facts than emotions, and as individuals they seem to have a more ethical, perhaps sports-based sense of fair play.” — Camille Paglia
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

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